If we don’t move him and he goes to FA after next season we’d get a comp pick likely higher than any pick we’d get for him in a trade. Right? Keep him. Let him play the season. If he booms, try and resign him. If he continues his meh numbers let him go and take the compensatory pick.
I doubt it unless we aren't active in free agency. I doubt people want us to sit on the FA sidelines so we can get some comp pick for Joke.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
If we don’t move him and he goes to FA after next season we’d get a comp pick likely higher than any pick we’d get for him in a trade. Right? Keep him. Let him play the season. If he booms, try and resign him. If he continues his meh numbers let him go and take the compensatory pick.
I doubt it unless we aren't active in free agency. I doubt people want us to sit on the FA sidelines so we can get some comp pick for Joke.
You don’t have to be inactive. You can still trade for players and sign guys that have been released. Teams like the Patriots, Seahawks, and Ravens have been taking advantage of the comp pick system for years.
I wish there was a place to see how TEs performed vs man compared to vs zone coverage. I've been looking without much success. Hooper's not really that man-beating guy, and Bryant's catch radius left/leaves a lot to be desired. Being able to find holes in zone is nice, but there are times you just need a guy that can beat his man.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Nobody, not once, has ever doubted Njoku's measurables. The problem is we're still mostly talking about his potential going into year 5. The conversation has shifted somewhat because he's picked it up at the very end of last year... but when viewed within his entire sample of work you have to wonder if it was a fluke. He could just as well regress back to his mean (comically poor blocking and alligator-arming critical passes) as he could continue to improve. Combine that with his wanting out and I just think he'll get his wish after his 5th year. I had kinda given up on the guy coming into this year, so it's a little hard for me to jump back on that bandwagon. Him playing well this year will earn him a big contract somewhere, and will obviously help the Browns in games.
There's no way to know but what does Njoku look like last season if we don't sign Hooper?
I think some of the problem we're running in to in these player evaluations is that our WR and TE rooms are indeed crowded with talent which in turn means appreciable opportunities are spread around. When I think back on Njoku's time here I don't get visions of Gregg Little 2.0 I DO recall however that Njoku has been asked to make some catches that you don't see many if anyone else is asked.
Personally, I think its smarter to retain him, see what kind of season he can turn in for us and compare that to what Hooper gives us. Hooper had a decent season but some key drops towards the end of the season raises questions for me about his reliability. Not saying we should dump him but if he turns in a repeat season he may find himself in the crosshairs.
I guess for me I just don't see any real downside to keeping Njoku around another year.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
Bryant started out decent. Looked the part and athletic. But he had a couple fumbles, and ever since then, once he has the ball in his hands he looks like a fullback with 2 hands covering the ball lunging forward. Looks like he was so worried about holding on to it, he lost any resemblance of athleticism
Nobody, not once, has ever doubted Njoku's measurables. The problem is we're still mostly talking about his potential going into year 5. The conversation has shifted somewhat because he's picked it up at the very end of last year... but when viewed within his entire sample of work you have to wonder if it was a fluke. He could just as well regress back to his mean (comically poor blocking and alligator-arming critical passes) as he could continue to improve. Combine that with his wanting out and I just think he'll get his wish after his 5th year. I had kinda given up on the guy coming into this year, so it's a little hard for me to jump back on that bandwagon. Him playing well this year will earn him a big contract somewhere, and will obviously help the Browns in games.
There's no way to know but what does Njoku look like last season if we don't sign Hooper?
I think some of the problem we're running in to in these player evaluations is that our WR and TE rooms are indeed crowded with talent which in turn means appreciable opportunities are spread around. When I think back on Njoku's time here I don't get visions of Gregg Little 2.0 I DO recall however that Njoku has been asked to make some catches that you don't see many if anyone else is asked.
Personally, I think its smarter to retain him, see what kind of season he can turn in for us and compare that to what Hooper gives us. Hooper had a decent season but some key drops towards the end of the season raises questions for me about his reliability. Not saying we should dump him but if he turns in a repeat season he may find himself in the crosshairs.
I guess for me I just don't see any real downside to keeping Njoku around another year.
I suppose using your comments about usage, the downside is he takes chances away from other players. That in turn hurts the QB/TE relationship/chemistry.
What would happen if say we started pumping Johnson the ball more and cut Chubbs carries down to 9-10 carries a game?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Our TE group and our WR group BOTH need the same thing....and that is a WR that the Defense must account for getting deep.
That guy doesn't HAVE to be a superstar...but a legit deep threat coupled with Baker's arm, and I think our TEs and WRs wreak havoc with another 5 yards or so of depth to play in.
I suppose using your comments about usage, the downside is he takes chances away from other players. That in turn hurts the QB/TE relationship/chemistry.
What would happen if say we started pumping Johnson the ball more and cut Chubbs carries down to 9-10 carries a game?
I see it more the other way around. Hooper is 2018 Carlos Hyde and Njoku is 2018 Chubb. Getting Chubb more carries was a good thing. Hooper is what he is. We didn't know what we had in Chubb until we gave him more opportunities. I'm not saying Njoku will be As good as Chubb, but he's our only TE that has a non-negligible chance of being a game changer.
Njoku was top 10 in yards as a TE in 2018 (not that that's saying a lot.) He was hurt in 2019 in Freddie's lost year. This year they brought in Hooper and Bryant as their guys and gave them the reps. However, Njoku was the guy that steadily earned more reps and showed up in the playoffs. Give him good coaching in the same system and see if he can keep building.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Thought Njoku was done and gone when we drafted Bryant Harrison. he had the good hands and was considered a hard worker.
njoku surprised me as he worked hard and then some. By the time we had our bye week and I think his eyes opened up on his worth.
In every aspect the best place for Njoku was HERE as a Brown. Players wanted to come here as a Brown if he looked around the best place to be was Cleveland. So a funny thing happened on the way to the Forum...Njoku found out that if a WR can block for the runners then why should he not want to block. He looked goood when the RB scored due to his blocking!!! If he didn't catch a ball all night it didn't matter when the team scored while he was blockng! He was an impact when we ran the ball, threw the ball. He had more variables to him now.
jmho I think he will be a GREAT Browns TE blocking his butt off!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I suppose using your comments about usage, the downside is he takes chances away from other players. That in turn hurts the QB/TE relationship/chemistry.
What would happen if say we started pumping Johnson the ball more and cut Chubbs carries down to 9-10 carries a game?
I see it more the other way around. Hooper is 2018 Carlos Hyde and Njoku is 2018 Chubb. Getting Chubb more carries was a good thing. Hooper is what he is. We didn't know what we had in Chubb until we gave him more opportunities. I'm not saying Njoku will be As good as Chubb, but he's our only TE that has a non-negligible chance of being a game changer.
Njoku was top 10 in yards as a TE in 2018 (not that that's saying a lot.) He was hurt in 2019 in Freddie's lost year. This year they brought in Hooper and Bryant as their guys and gave them the reps. However, Njoku was the guy that steadily earned more reps and showed up in the playoffs. Give him good coaching in the same system and see if he can keep building.
I'm not saying we should cut him or trade him for peanuts. I expect he'll play out this season (mostly because what he's worth even as a 3rd TE is more than what we would get for him in a trade).
I expect Bryant to make a significant step forward with a proper offseason, and the articles on Hooper when he was on his way to Berea were such that his success was largely based on chemistry with his QB. I don't think you can call his performance/cost ratio in 2020 anything but a bummer, but I'm willing to give him a little more time with Baker before I want his silly contract off the payroll.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Seems to me that the perfect destination for David would be the Patriots. They need some offensive firepower and he would fit perfect into the Aaron Hernandez role in their offense.
One Could Just Go Root For the Patriots then! I'd bet they have a message board!
Quote:
Would you trade Njoku for Stephon Gilmore straight up?
No! Heck NO!
Quote:
Article The New England Patriots may want to trade one of their biggest stars, however an injury is complicating things, according to Sports Illustrated’s Albert Breer.
I don't give a BLANK! what's best for the patriots, or any of the other 30 nfl teams that aren't the Browns.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
I suppose using your comments about usage, the downside is he takes chances away from other players. That in turn hurts the QB/TE relationship/chemistry.
What would happen if say we started pumping Johnson the ball more and cut Chubbs carries down to 9-10 carries a game?
I see it more the other way around. Hooper is 2018 Carlos Hyde and Njoku is 2018 Chubb. Getting Chubb more carries was a good thing. Hooper is what he is. We didn't know what we had in Chubb until we gave him more opportunities. I'm not saying Njoku will be As good as Chubb, but he's our only TE that has a non-negligible chance of being a game changer.
Njoku was top 10 in yards as a TE in 2018 (not that that's saying a lot.) He was hurt in 2019 in Freddie's lost year. This year they brought in Hooper and Bryant as their guys and gave them the reps. However, Njoku was the guy that steadily earned more reps and showed up in the playoffs. Give him good coaching in the same system and see if he can keep building.
Something we disagree on. No big deal. I take Hooper, you take Njoku.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I look at the improvement he has made, both catching the ball and blocking. This past season he was so much better at both than before. Actually, his hands have been pretty solid since we started that magical run in Baker's rookie season. He's missed some games in that stretch, but he's been pretty good.
If we are going to scrap him based on his first couple years and ignore his improvement, then let's kick Bryant to the curb now and save time. He's made some plays, but he's had many drops, some fumbles, and is a less effective blocker than Baker.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
Bryant, in his rookie year caught 24 balls, for 238 yards and 3 TD's.
Njoke in his rookie year caught 32 for 386 yards and 4 TD.
Last year, his 4th, he caught 19 for 213 yards and 2 TD's.
Hardly a career on the rise. After 4 years I don't think it unreasonable to expect better but hey, that's just my opinion.
OK....his blocking got better....big deal. If blocking is what we want, put Lamm out there. He caught a TD pass didn't he?
It's his 4th year, but also his 4th HC (Hue, Williams, Freddie, Stefanski.)
Bryant's 1st year was with good Baker and a good OL and a coach of the year. Njoku's first year was with Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan at QB, I think we had Shon Coleman and Spencer Drango/Roderick Johnson playing OT with Joe T on IR, and with Hue as his HC and he still put up better numbers.
Njoku's blocking improvement is a big deal. Re-watch the Chiefs game. He blocked Frank Clark better than our tackles. His being our best pass blocking TE may have contributed to his lack of targets.
Hooper had 15 targets against the Jets. Bryant had games with 6 and 7 targets. Njoku never had more than 5.
It's impossible to have production on opportunities that you don't have.
Maybe recency bias is a factor, but Njoku was our best player on offense against the Chiefs (PFF grades link .) Stepping up in the playoffs has some weight with me. Meanwhile, Bryant disappeared. Playoffs are the expectation now.
Give the Chief more opportunities this year and then make a decision. Giving up on your most athletic TE, who was also your best blocker (particularly pass pro and he'll actually block with an edge in the run game) to end the season, with a large catch radius, and he's also under 25 doesn't make any sense to me.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Hooper is basically impossible to cut loose at this point.
Agreed. Hooper's contract will keep him on the field for us. I'd use Njoku and Hooper in 2TE sets. But, I'd make Hooper the late check down option with Njoku the earlier down the seam read on pass plays. Njoku's also the one I'd be calling screens for.
Attack the D with Njoku while having safe, reliable Hooper available. Sounds like a good pairing to me.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I pretty much see no point or appreciable value in not keeping all three here.
The only way I trade Njoku is if he makes it absolutely clear that he doesn't want to be here AND some other team jumps big enough to make it worthwhile.
In short, I'd bet that most of his desire to be traded is that he wants to be "the Man" in whatever TE room he's in. He wants the targets and the positional spotlight and if he isn't going to get that here he wants to go where he can get it. Afterall, a player's best tool for getting that next fat contract starts with them getting the opportunities. Well, my response to him is that you need to create your opportunities. Don't let the coaches have any reasons for you to ever come off the field. Stay humble enough to know and recognize your weaknesses and then put in the work to eliminate them. If you're not good at inline blocking... figure out WHY, and then fix it. Treat it as your profession and develop yourself.
He has all the potential you'd want, but he has yet to realize much of it. He has tons more athleticism than a lot of guys out there, yet guys that are less of an athlete are FAR more productive and FAR more valuable to their teams. He *should* be our Travis Kelce. He *should* eat defenses the way Kelce does. He *should* be the second-coming of Kellen Winslow, Jr. He isn't any of that; he hasn't earned through performance to be "The Man" in the TE room.... he needs to know that if he wants that role, he has to go out and get it. Still, I'd keep him and try to work out a new deal that reflects who he is, not who he thinks he is or has the potential to be (except perhaps in escalators).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I like your breakdown of Njoku. It seems some people attribute poor coaching to the struggles of some players but not so much to others. They also seem to dismiss how many targets each player is given and reach conclusions based on raw stats.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I pretty much see no point or appreciable value in not keeping all three here.
The only way I trade Njoku is if he makes it absolutely clear that he doesn't want to be here AND some other team jumps big enough to make it worthwhile.
In short, I'd bet that most of his desire to be traded is that he wants to be "the Man" in whatever TE room he's in. He wants the targets and the positional spotlight and if he isn't going to get that here he wants to go where he can get it. Afterall, a player's best tool for getting that next fat contract starts with them getting the opportunities. Well, my response to him is that you need to create your opportunities. Don't let the coaches have any reasons for you to ever come off the field. Stay humble enough to know and recognize your weaknesses and then put in the work to eliminate them. If you're not good at inline blocking... figure out WHY, and then fix it. Treat it as your profession and develop yourself.
He has all the potential you'd want, but he has yet to realize much of it. He has tons more athleticism than a lot of guys out there, yet guys that are less of an athlete are FAR more productive and FAR more valuable to their teams. He *should* be our Travis Kelce. He *should* eat defenses the way Kelce does. He *should* be the second-coming of Kellen Winslow, Jr. He isn't any of that; he hasn't earned through performance to be "The Man" in the TE room.... he needs to know that if he wants that role, he has to go out and get it. Still, I'd keep him and try to work out a new deal that reflects who he is, not who he thinks he is or has the potential to be (except perhaps in escalators).
I get where you are coming from, but it's hard to go out and get it via Zoom. In a non-standard off-season, high-profile FAs and rookies got first opportunity. He developed throughout the season, and then went out and got it when it mattered vs KC. *shrug*
Kelce has had Andy Reid (and Alex Smith/Mahomes) his entire career. I won't go through Njoku's surroundings again. Hopefully, Stefanski is the "change of scenery" Njoku needed.
Rosenhaus being his agent/the business side is my biggest worry with Njoku.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Well, if Njoku keeps up with his progression from the last season, then he gets slotted as TE2, or TE1.5, if you will, then the TE room hierarchy is right. Bryant stays at 3 to develop, and life is good. The question then becomes, will Njoku want a contract that will be out of proportion to his skill in 2022? If yes, then Bryant becomes TE2, and we wish Njoku a long a d successful career.
I have no problem trading Njoku if the team so wishes too. We're going to pay him $6 mill this season to be the #2 or #3 TE and that money might be used to better the team else where plus he is set to be a free agent after this season and I don't think he will be back so we might as well get something for him unless the team hopes to get a comp pick. People keep talking about his improved pass blocking and according to PFF he graded out a lot better there this past year but he only pass blocked 37 times in 15 games that he played in, is that worth $6 mill? I don't think so.
I'm hoping it's more only paying 6M for our #1 TE. Unfortunately, we'd still be paying 11.5M for our #2 TE in my scenario. I suggest we play them both, and pretend they're both making 8.75M and call them 1a and 1b. lol
While still not ideal, it feels a bit more palatable in an offense that utilizes a lot of 2TE sets.
You're not just paying for the pass blocking. You're paying for the total package. I'd prefer to see if he can live up to what we saw against KC.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I don't have a problem keeping him but he's been a disappointment so far in his career, although at times he has shown flashes. The reason for his slightly better play last year could be because he saw limited snaps. According to PFF the only thing he did better last year than he has in previous years is pass block, and he only did that an average of 2.5 times a game.
but it's hard to go out and get it via Zoom. In a non-standard off-season, high-profile FAs and rookies got first opportunity. He developed throughout the season, and then went out and got it when it mattered vs KC. *shrug*
I'm not talking about last offseason. I'm talking about this one, and the next one, and the next.
He should be asking Coach Petzing, and Stefanski, and the other guys in the TE room what they feel he sucks at and he should be working on it.
I don't care how much work you put in, if you aren't attacking your weaknesses, you're not getting better. You're doing a lot of work to stay where you are.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I thought the guy we picked up from Detroit was supposed to fill that roll. Hall was it? What happened to that guy? Did he get any snaps this season?
;we were in a desperate situation if I recall. We were down to -0- WRs due to covid we needed at least a veteran WR. But once all came back Hall was irrelevant jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg)
