DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Communism

So I have seen many posters allude to more progressive Democratic politicians and policies as communism ... Despite the fact that most of Europe is far to the Left of where the Democratic party is or wants to be ... and none of those countries would be considered Communist. The answer from one poster related to the Cold War with Communism and Russia and how America was conditioned in the 60's.

I have two questions:

1. Russia was the enemy - but Trump has been more (underhandedly) in bed with Russia and dirty Russian money than any POTUS in history. Russia twice worked very hard to get Trump elected... Where is the "Anti Russia" rhetoric for Trump? How or why do the same posters give him a pass?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56423536

https://www.ft.com/trumptoronto

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/t...c94f_story.html

https://fpif.org/trumps-dirty-money/

2. In the USA - we have proven beyond any doubt for any rational person, the election was not stolen from Trump. It was fair and the safest election in US history (according to Trump's own man) ... yet for months before the election and still now after the election, Trump still spreads lies and disinformation. He also labelled the Media the enemy of the people. . . .these two facts mirror what leaders of despot / communist countries do. It's a straight copy of Dictatorship policy manual .... Something closer to Communist/Putin's Russia than the glory of the US of A.

Again - how does Trump get to act like a King, try to steal an election, act like a dictator ... and get a free pass?

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/23/ten-ways-to-tell-if-your-president-is-a-dictator/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/09/08/10-ways-trump-is-becoming-a-dictator-election-edition/

https://www.vox.com/2016/3/21/11275978/trump-dictator-tactics

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/11/world/europe/trump-autocrats-dictators.html

Good questions. Can't wait to hear the answers (excuses) you receive

I don’t see one link to Breibart, OANN, Hannity, or Tucker. And not even one Stephen Miller tweet? How can you expect us to believe the fake news?

Shocking no-one with a brain, Trump was lying about Chinese interference in the 2020 election: It was Russia and Iran.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/politics/...aims/index.html

Also from the same US Intelligence Report:

The report also raises questions about the effort from Senate Republicans to investigate the Bidens and Ukraine, a probe that examined many of the same allegations about the Bidens and Ukraine that the Russian-linked officials were pushing, according to the intelligence community report.

I wonder if all the Cult of Trump followers can ever admit how badly they were lied to and how badly they fell for a con artist.

Yeah, it took Putin's authorization of extensive effort to get the people close to Trump to spread misinformation.

Only which misinformation was specifically to be spread in some instances.

So posters like to call everything and sundry "Communism" - but not prepared to actually try to debate in the face of 'facts' instead of just throwing it out there in the middle in various discussions. I guess that's telling.

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You’re asking a troll to come explain it’s trolling. Good luck.

Why try to discuss it? I am not going to change your mind about yourself.

You can't even make a decent attempt to explain it, much less discuss it.

According to your definition, every nation in Europe is communist and you have no idea of the difference between democratic socialism and communism.

Actually I think you do but you just use the word communism to troll. If you really don't know the difference, maybe you should try and find the actual answer.

Communism... ...And I am not a communist.

Jesus Christ said, to,
Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them which curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Do you know how Europe pays for their socialism? They have a 20% vat tax (sales tax) on every purchase, on top of all of their other taxes.

Europe is not the Utopia you make it out to be.

Thats not really going to fly here.

I think most people are confused about what you actually want to debate. Your thread title is "Communism" but your 2 points have nothing to do with communism and are mostly about Trump.

So, do you want to debate about communism or Trump? There are plenty of other threads to discuss Trump.

Actually, there isn't much difference between democratic socialism and communism, other than how they come to power.

The term you're looking for is a social democracy.

I think most people agree a social democracy is good. The debate is at what level does a "social democracy" become "democratic socialism."

The intended point of the thread is that we have posters (and people at large) that want to condemn the Democratic Party as a whole as "Communists" with a communist agenda. These posters and people believe that communism is an attack on the country, that it's 'the enemy' of American ideals. . . . YET these people support Trump - Trump who has [1] Used despot/dictator tactics to try to stay in power, see various articles. [2] Tried to deny the will of the people and tried to 'steal' an election.

I respect everyone who has an opinion and a political position on policies. But that doesn't occur - the posters throwing around "communism" to brand the Democrats and Biden (who is just about as Centrist a politician as you can get) ... and still support Trump with a great deal of plausible deniability type posts that try to imply that maybe Trump DID have the election stolen from him etc.

So it's not about communism per-se other than to highlight that even AOC is miles and miles away from "Communism" - and that many countries in Europe are already as far left or further left than AOC and none of them would be remotely considered communist.

Every child is taught that communism is a bad thing.

it is a calling card of political parties to stoke fear of the unknown.

It is some politicians favorite slur... If they don't like it they just call it communism.

Most people do not know what actual communism is. And anyone that is under the impression that communism is coming to this country is sadly mistaken.

Same posters would gush over how strong Stalin is if he was still alive and leading the USSR. Just like they do over Putin now.

I’ll say this. The opposite extremes are communism and fascism, as was evidenced by 1930’s Germany. When you have people who are trying to undermine elections to keep one person in control of a radical base, I think the larger concern is fascism.

Cries of communism speak to leftover Cold War engraining. You can tell because people make fear based assertions without offering rational facts or examples. It becomes a collective assertion of trying to combat communists in disguise. It’s McCarthyism.

If people are really concerned a out communists, they should actually look at what Karl Marx says. His theory of capitalism is that eventually a war between the social classes will eventually lead to communism. Well, perhaps we should start focusing on the wealth gap and the crony/unbridled capitalism that got us there. I believe in capitalism as being the best system for sure. When it’s rigged, though, there’s going to be fallout. If people look at every bad thing that happens and cry “Communists!” Well then they’re fighting windmills and not the real problem.

Well, thank you for being honest that you are more interested in discussing Trump than communism.

I will direct my replies to the other posters who seem like they actually want to discuss communism.

Maybe you can convince some that the USA and Europe are no where near what Communism actually is.

Yeah not much. Basically, social opposites.

Someone at least wants to discuss communism!

I actually agree with most of your post. I think most people know pure capitalism is bad. Some social programs are needed for the good of our society. Most of our disagreements come at what level of socialism is too much. My thinking is that when we get to that point were people become complacent living in a welfare state (basically lacking motivation), then that is too much. It leads to many other problems that I could talk about for a long time. Can I pinpoint that exact tipping point? No, because that is a complicated equation.

However, there are large groups of people out there that think socialism (basically meaning no private businesses) is the preferred social structure as long as it is done through democracy- aka Democratic Socialism. I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this idea.

And it's funny how you bring up Marx, since many of his principles are gaining steam today (and I think this is why many people today are still concerned with "Communism", though it is really socialism and Marxism that they fear).

Identity politics - Marxist
Working class vs. Billionaires - Marxist
Anti-religious sentiment - Marxist
Against the nuclear family - Marxist

The list could go on and on. I think this is why people see the Left promoting these Marxist ideas, and they see "Communism." Though really, they should be labeling it as "Marxist" if we are being technical.

Once again, everything in that article is actually talking about a Social Democracy (ie, what the US is right now).

You need to get the lingo right if we are going to actually have a discussion. Socialism = 100% publicly owned businesses and means of production.

A pure Democratic Socialist country would have zero privately-owned businesses; however, it would come to power through democracy, not an authoritarian regime; is that what you are advocating for?

In my point of view:

Social Democracy = good
Democratic Socialism = bad

Article that explains it better

Kind of hard to be opposites when communism is literally a form of socialism.

Please explain how they are opposites; I'd like to hear your reasoning.

That has nothing to do with the discussion. The discussion revolves around what is and what isn't communism. Great Britain is not a communist country. Neither are most other nations of Europe.

Focus.

No it isn’t. Communism literally means “Common owned”. The absence of social classes. Hence communism only exists in the minds of those who wish to control the social order around them while becoming a powerful dictatorship with ruthless leaders. The dark side of the humane race. The former Soviet Union tried to implement their version of so called socialism into their communist state but failed miserably. Communism is a cult not a society. Basically a political and social opposite of socialism.

I'm always glad to discuss. I think the biggest problem we have right now is the fact that we could be validating Marx's theory on the social economics where a small minority of the upper class begins to disproportionately horde the resources, which leads to blowback. While it was behind the Bolshevik revolution, I don't think that's just germane to Communism, as that was the root cause for the French revolution, and many other economic revolutions. Essentially, when the middle class gets depleted, it either leads to an oppressive, autocratic society led by the financial elite, or it comes roaring back by essentially grabbing all the wealth back from the wealthy.

We saw a constructive end to that dynamic after the Gilded Age when things like unions, workers' rights, minimum wage, anti-trust, etc. all came in to play. So there was a more peaceful reset leading to a buildup of a middle class.

I think, in every scenario, one thing that keeps recurring is that there is a detached wealth class that "should have seen it coming" but were too blinded by their own greed and detachment. The Marie Antoinette's if you will. I think we are close to, or at that level right now.

I am a huge advocate of capitalism that is fueled by private businesses competing with each other across the board. Where people can determine their place in society based on their ambition and hard work. You have to allow for free-flow up and down the classes, though, and that isn't really the case anymore.

Nowadays, you have a middle class that is getting pinched from both ends. You have the few, financial elites that control massive amounts of wealth and perpetuate their greed. They invest their wealth into gaming the system to perpetuate their returns, disallow emerging competition, and not contribute their fair share. If you actually look at the pre-Reagan tax brackets, oddly enough during the height of the Cold War, they were much more "socialist" than they are now.

On the other hand, you have the social welfare class - which is a needed aspect on one hand, and an abused aspect on the other. This is also supported disproportionately by the middle class. As the middle class feels the pinch from both sides, this class will continue to grow. That dynamic has never worked out for the wealthy, but they are consistently blinded by greed.

I, myself, am a big advocate for a capitalist system with guardrails. You should be allowed to become a billionaire through hard work, ambition and innovation, but you should also not be empowered to control the system, and should be allowed to free fall if you are reckless. On the other hand, I think people who lose everything through no fault of their own should not be out on the street, without food or shelter. There will always be a homeless or downtrodden element to society, and there has to be an element of empathy in that regard.

I think the role of government should be to perpetuate that dynamic. Promote competition. Promote innovation. Promote hard work. Not catering to wealthy elites or corporations, while also incentivizing people to not contribute to society.

Socialism is a social organization where all business - production and distribution - is publicly owned.

Communism is a social organization where all business is publically owned, and all property is publicly owned as well.

Those are their literal definitions. So, as you can see, communism is a form of socialism.

Whatever floats your boat bro.

I think you did a great job of explaining it. To me it boils down to this. We live in a society where wealth can be limitless. Yet we also live in a society where many propose there be no floor. There has to be a floor. A floor by which workers can actually make a living at the decent minimum standard. Where our people can get medical care without the threat of going bankrupt.

That isn't a form of communism in any way. It's what I see as the guardrails you mentioned. I'm not saying that when you mentioned guardrails that's what you had in mind. That's just the way I see guardrails.

People act like this is some socialist or communist type of idea. It's really not. I haven't seen anyone propose that the government take over business and that everyone has the same standard of living. Just that everyone who works be able to actually make a living and everyone have access to healthcare. Basic, decent human conditions.

And as you can see, nobody is or has proposed any of that.

Exactly.

If you do not know the difference between fascism and communism, maybe you should not comment. 1930's Germany was fascism.

To provide a substantive response, my laughter was aimed at the "Ready, Fire, Aim" style of your post, which is fine. It's pretty common around here.

You are somewhat off, though, if you actually look at the history of inter-war Germany. Perhaps I should have said 1920's-1930's Germany. Fascism came out victorious, and that is everything that we remember, but there was actually a huge clash between communists and fascists in Germany. The communists were eventually thrown into the first concentration camps after Hitler rose to power.

If you look at my words though, the opposite extremes are communism and fascism, hence the natural tension between Stalin's USSR and Hitler's Germany. Extreme right and extreme left.

I definitely see it very similarly to you. I see the growing threat of fascism/unbridled capitalism on one side, and it is alarming.

But, I also see the growing threat of what I'll call Marxism/socialism on the other side - which many are quick to dismiss or even accept as a good thing.

There are definitely some unique parallels to inter-war Germany.

The scary thing about socialism is where does it stop? Marxists view socialism and social programs as a stepping-stone to communism, and pure socialism is scary enough itself.

You don't have to look very far to see where it stops. Many nations around the globe make sure their citizens can make a living, have health care and provide them with ample paid leave and vacations. Some have done it for decades. Yet they are very much a capitalist society and economy.

What people do is use the excuse of "where does it stop" to do nothing that helps their people. Like I said, there are examples around the globe of where it stops and such fear and scare tactics have become old and stale.