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I went to the Joel Osteen service held today and came out with a different perspective on the people I consider friends
I've always wanted to go and see Joel Osteen in person. How was it?
On a side note, I've been reading the boards since the old dawgtalk and have always respected your viewpoint on different subjects. There are some good people on this site and I hope you stick around. 
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All Pro
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On that note, I won't be back here also.....  For those of you to whom I have considered a friend, nice knowing you.....
All because somebody disagreed with you on a message board ? LMAO 
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You don't know me Mike.I have a heart and a soul. It's just that you say you condemn Art for moving the Browns to Baltimore and yet you willingly support the team anyway? Does that not sound strange to you? You are no better than the many Baltimorons who literally cheered the move. Do you pray for their souls,too? They didn't care how they got a football team,nor did many of your people in Baltimore care about how us Browns fans felt after it happened. I know I know, you lost the Colts in the dead of night some 23 years ago,but your city didn't exactly fight like hell to get your team back like the city of Cleveland did, right? Your city supports a STOLEN football team...this is a FACT...deal with it.
"My opinions and feelings are mine and shall not be influenced by anyone....especially liberals."
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Legend
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You don't know me Mike.I have a heart and a soul. It's just that you say you condemn Art for moving the Browns to Baltimore and yet you willingly support the team anyway? Does that not sound strange to you? You are no better than the many Baltimorons who literally cheered the move. Do you pray for their souls,too? They didn't care how they got a football team,nor did many of your people in Baltimore care about how us Browns fans felt after it happened. I know I know, you lost the Colts in the dead of night some 23 years ago,but your city didn't exactly fight like hell to get your team back like the city of Cleveland did, right? Your city supports a STOLEN football team...this is a FACT...deal with it.
Here's another fact: Modell is a jerk, a jackass, and he is not welcome in Cleveland.
One more fact: had the nfl not agreed to grant Cleveland an expansion team, Cleveland would have gone out of its way to attract another team to the city, and as long as they were called the Cleveland Browns, we'd all be rooting for them. What's that mean? It means we would've done the same, and felt the same way, as the people from Baltimore.
We may have attracted the Raiders, or perhaps the Bucaneers, or maybe Indy, or Kansas City.............geez, hate art all you want, but don't blame the people of Baltimore, or Maryland. That's juvenile. And yes, the day I found out the Browns were leaving, I cried. A grown man, crying over a football team. I still have the S.I. issue that covered it. I still have the Toledo Blade sports section from that day.
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How many Baltimore Colts fans would have said that enshrining Bob Irsay was deserved, no matter what his accomplishments before or after he moved? I bet those fans would be very few and far between.
If Modell were enshrined in the Hall of Fame, it would instantly become a Hall of Shame instead ... especially given Canton's proximity to Cleveland. No matter what Modell may have accomplished prior to the move, ripping a team away from a loyal, and supporting fanbase is reason enough for him to NEVER receive an honor like the Hall of Fame. In fact, a Modell enshrinement would cheapen the entire Hall ..... and would make screwing a city and fanbase the official coin of the realm.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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How many Baltimore Colts fans would have said that enshrining Bob Irsay was deserved, no matter what his accomplishments before or after he moved? I bet those fans would be very few and far between.
If Modell were enshrined in the Hall of Fame, it would instantly become a Hall of Shame instead ... especially given Canton's proximity to Cleveland. No matter what Modell may have accomplished prior to the move, ripping a team away from a loyal, and supporting fanbase is reason enough for him to NEVER receive an honor like the Hall of Fame. In fact, a Modell enshrinement would cheapen the entire Hall ..... and would make screwing a city and fanbase the official coin of the realm.
I agree.
However, it seemed to me the topic kinda flowed away from Art and the hall of fame and went towards " the people of baltimore suck and are to be blamed for stealing the team", or something like that, and I disagree with that line of thinking.
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Hall of Famer
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j/c... For all of you people saying "Rot in hell.", "I can't wait til Modell dies", etc. And I even saw one person say "When Modell dies, I'm going to pee on his grave." For all of you... keep sports in perspective, please. I love the Cleveland Browns like the rest of you, and I don't like Modell for what he did. But to wish someone ill because of sports is ridiculous.
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How many Baltimore Colts fans would have said that enshrining Bob Irsay was deserved, no matter what his accomplishments before or after he moved? I bet those fans would be very few and far between.
If Modell were enshrined in the Hall of Fame, it would instantly become a Hall of Shame instead ... especially given Canton's proximity to Cleveland. No matter what Modell may have accomplished prior to the move, ripping a team away from a loyal, and supporting fanbase is reason enough for him to NEVER receive an honor like the Hall of Fame. In fact, a Modell enshrinement would cheapen the entire Hall ..... and would make screwing a city and fanbase the official coin of the realm.
I agree.
However, it seemed to me the topic kinda flowed away from Art and the hall of fame and went towards " the people of baltimore suck and are to be blamed for stealing the team", or something like that, and I disagree with that line of thinking.
The simple fact is that nothing polotical happens in a vacuum. Glendenning was re-elected overwhelmingly by the people of Maryland following the move of the former Cleveland Browns team. There were few, if any protests against taking another city's team. Rather, there was a really vindictive (and undeserved) "screw them" attitude that the people of Baltimore exhibited towards the plight of Browns fans. I think that the people of Baltimore somehow put it in their minds that Cleveland was somehow against their getting a new team ..... when in fact it was Art Modell who voted against them at every turn.
The bottom line is that the politicians followed the will of the people, and got a team ... no matter the cost, or cost to the former fans of that particular team. The politicians were rewarded by the people with overwhelming re-election. Politicians .... especially the closer you get to the local level ..... follow an agenda dictated by local interests and/or beliefs. The people of Baltimore felt that they deserved a team .... and they were going to get a team ...... and anyone who got hurt in the process be damned ....... and the politicians were only too happy to follow the will of the people.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Well, you go ahead and think how you want. At the end of the day, anger towards the people of baltimore and anger towards the politicians of maryland, plus about $1 will get you a cup of coffee at the nearest gas station.
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2nd String
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anger towards the people of baltimore and anger towards the politicians of maryland, plus about $1 will get you?
Fluid to urinate on Fart's grave when he dies?
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Raven
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On that note, I won't be back here also..... For those of you to whom I have considered a friend, nice knowing you.....
All because somebody disagreed with you on a message board ? LMAO
If that was the case, NO ONE would be here or any other public forum.  ...I am cool now..It's better to step away,look at the whole picture from a different perspective, than get back in to it....
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Raven
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Lol, dude you seem like a good guy, but to come on a BROWNS website as a ravens fan and call some poster children who live at home or whaterver makes me laugh. Expecially when the thread is about Modell.
If you don't understand why Brownsfans don't like Modell, Balitmore and the Raven's well there is nothing to say. If you DO understand then there is nothing to say. Unless you are really touchy I didn't read anyone attack YOU personally. I didn't see one "I hate MIKE the ravan's fan" . I'll be honest and say I don't like ravens fans in general, but like I said when I started you seem ok.
If I was you, I would avoid talking about Modell and the ravens and talk football. Just a thought!
Have a nice day!! (holy cow I can be nice to a baltimore person!)
Well don't you think to not talk about the Ravens would be boring here??? 
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Raven
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I went to the Joel Osteen service held today and came out with a different perspective on the people I consider friends
I've always wanted to go and see Joel Osteen in person. How was it?
On a side note, I've been reading the boards since the old dawgtalk and have always respected your viewpoint on different subjects. There are some good people on this site and I hope you stick around.
Joel Osteen was wonderful yesterday..My wife was hesitant on going at first, but I think that this service has made a "profound change in the both of us"..It's funny how when you are having a bad day (Me here yesterday) and you get an opportunity to here some Good News in Life, how it changes your personna on how you view other people's opinion's and what they may be going through in their lives....If he (Joel Osteen) ever comes to the Cleveland area, I would encourage AS MANY of you that can, to go see this man....
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Legend
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What's that mean? It means we would've done the same, and felt the same way, as the people from Baltimore.
Actually, that's not all together a given.. If you go back, there was discussion of the Tampa Bay Bucs coming here and most fans in the area didn't want them. Almost from the beginning, the feeling here was Expansion or nothing..
Granted there were a few misguided fools that thought like some folks from Baltimore... which was, "it happened to us so it's ok to happen to others" kinda thinking... It was wrong for them to think that... just like it was wrong of the folks from Baltimore..
And as you can see, our politicians and powers in the community stayed the course.. we as a community decided to build a stadium that was state of the art and fought to get an EXPANSION team here rather than doing unto others what had been done to us..
I applaud the folks in this area for sticking to it and demanding an expansion team over a relocated team...
I can say this with all honesty,,, I would NOT have followed a team in Cleveland, no matter what the name, had they been stolen from another city...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I can say this with all honesty,,, I would NOT have followed a team in Cleveland, no matter what the name, had they been stolen from another city...
...me too,...the thought of that is just plain dirty. 
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And if you had been like a city such as Baltimore who went 25 years without a team, your attitude might have changed.
I still say the politicians and citizens of the county played chicken with Model and lost.
Had a stadium deal been put in place, we would have kept the team and had a Super Bowl.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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What's that mean? It means we would've done the same, and felt the same way, as the people from Baltimore.
I applaud the folks in this area for sticking to it and demanding an expansion team over a relocated team...
I can say this with all honesty,,, I would NOT have followed a team in Cleveland, no matter what the name, had they been stolen from another city...
Neither would I...which is why I am so hard on the some of people in Baltimore who had the attitude of "well,it happened to us,so we don't care how we got another team." And,I don't buy any of the sympathy from these same people who thought what Art did was wrong...and yet these same people are proudly wearing Ravens colors around the city of Baltimore.
"My opinions and feelings are mine and shall not be influenced by anyone....especially liberals."
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Legend
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Good to see things are cool now, Mike. Modell is hated by most Browns fans, that's just the way it is. I never had anything against the people of Baltimore, I simply can't stand their football team. I'm not too crazy about Newsome supporting that wrinkled-up money-grubbing weasel, either. 
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I'm not too crazy about Newsome supporting that wrinkled-up money-grubbing weasel, either.
Yeah, what the hell is that all about?
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
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And if you had been like a city such as Baltimore who went 25 years without a team, your attitude might have changed.
Nope,, not true at all Peen... I'd have followed another team,, which one, I don't know. Fortunatly I wasn't faced with the problem!
But if a man says, I'll not watch a team if we steal it from another city but allows for time to change his convictions,,, then too bad for him.. And that's not me! Not by a long shot!
As for the politicians playing chicken with Modell,,, maybe so,, could be true. I, like most people around here, wasn't privey to all conversations...
But to counter that, think about what Modell did.. He wanted the stadium... he wanted to run it, he wanted the revenue it would/could/should generate.. The city said,, sure,, ok,, it's yours to operate and they gave him a long term lease. Modell, with the help of Al Lerner among others, started Stadium Corporation... and that's the entity that managed the old Muni Stadium.
But Ooops,,, What abour maintenence of the facility... Oh no,,, Modell forgot that it was a million year old structure and would need repairs and upgrades...LOL What a Dolt he was for not factoring enough into the deal from the start....
My timing might be a bit off, but I think this all took place in the early to mid 80's... in next short period of time, Modell and his Stadium Corporation sunk millions into the old Muni,,, It was a bad investment.. one that the Mayor at that time,, Voinovich and City Council all knew... But Modell wanted it,, so they said OK... you go for it..
7 or 8 years later, Modell comes back pleading broke,,, financial distress.. in the mean time, he padded his own personal wealth to 75 million... yup,, sounds broke to me.. Not a lot of money by todays standards of NFL owners,, but still,,, that ain't broke!
So while the politicians may have played chicken with Modell, it was not without a good sound reason..
By they way, I'm one of those that think the whole thing could have been saved had a few politicians and Modell taken thier heads out of thier butts and put the egos aside... But that wasn't to be I guess.. Modell needed a quick fix and that's what he took,,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think that the people of Baltimore somehow put it in their minds that Cleveland was somehow against their getting a new team ..... when in fact it was Art Modell who voted against them at every turn.
I've been waiting to see if anyone would bring that up. It usually gets lost in the Art Modell debates.
As late as the last owners meeting before he announced the move he spearheaded the effort to keep Baltimore from getting an expansion team. I believe it was Ralph Wilson (the Bills owner) who went public with that info when Modell announced the move.
So if I was living in Baltimore I still wouldn't like Modell as I would have much rather had a new expansion team to call my own then to have a team stolen from another city.
It also shows how shady Art is. He new if there was expansion before he moved the Browns there would be less cities he could try to hold for ransom to bring the Browns there.
To those people who think the move was about Art not getting a new stadium, your wrong.
Art KNEW he could and would get a new stadium in Cleveland but he was going broke do to his other ventures, not the Browns, plus we built the Indians their new stadium so he lost his cash cow tenant and he needed a new influx of cash. He only had 2 options, sell the team or hold some other city ransom to move the Browns there.
We all know which one he chose.
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Modell is getting old. He probably doesn't have much more time on Earth. I hope he lives at least 3 more years, every day of which in agonizing pain, then when his life is about to expire, I hope the last thing he sees is the Cleveland Browns accepting the Lombardi Trophy.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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Well USNavy,, I can't say I think much of that idea either... As much as I hate the man, I don't like suffering,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well USNavy,, I can't say I think much of that idea either... As much as I hate the man, I don't like suffering,,
We could try to keep it quiet from you! 
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.)
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I can say this with all honesty,,, I would NOT have followed a team in Cleveland, no matter what the name, had they been stolen from another city...
...me too,...the thought of that is just plain dirty.
I would have to add my 3 cents here too,...there's no way you follow a relocated team . Wouldn't that just plain invalidate my entire Browns football card collection, for example ?? 
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Legend
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We could try to keep it quiet from you!
Wise Choice Grasshopper!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm not too crazy about Newsome supporting that wrinkled-up money-grubbing weasel, either.
I heard a long time ago that Ozzie felt like he owed his football career to Modell,which is why he decided to latch on to him and be an employee of his.Remember also that Ozzie really wanted Art to induct him into the Pro Football Hall of Fame back in '99...can you imagine what kind of mob scene that would be if Art said yes??? In light of all that's happened I thought Ozzie would have had more common sense than that...guess I was wrong. 
Last edited by Molly Hatchet Dawg; 10/27/07 02:49 PM.
"My opinions and feelings are mine and shall not be influenced by anyone....especially liberals."
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Way to come around Mike. In the grand scheme of things, we both have teams we love and support (regardless of how they came about). Looks like Joel is coming to my area next Summer: http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_eventsI'll try to remember to check it out.
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I heard a long time ago that Ozzie felt like he owed his football career to Modell,which is why he decided to latch on to him and be an employee of his.
Not to mention that Ozzie was one of the first black men in a position of power in the FO of an NFL team.. not the first, but one of them.. and later Modell promoted him to GM, then VP/GM..
So, you may not like it that Ozzie is loyal to Modell,, but I honestly can't blame him.. Ozzie might be the only man on the planet that really owes modell anything..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't have time to read all the posts, but the contempt obviously remains, including with me. Screw Art.
I did notice a bit about how Cleveland was awarded a stadium. WTF? I believe there was substantial tax that financed CBS, but the whole article is a lame attempt to excuse Modell.
I'll always remember when the Rats won the SB and Nance was introducing Fart and attempted to give him credit for bringing, "Jim Brown...blah...blah...blah...Lou Groza to the NFL". I have zero appreciation or respect to Nance's broadcasting abilities based on that the ignorance. Let's face it, Art bought the team with $4 million of other peoples money and forced Coach Brown out. That is his legacy. Give him credit for that.
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I heard a long time ago that Ozzie felt like he owed his football career to Modell,which is why he decided to latch on to him and be an employee of his.
Not to mention that Ozzie was one of the first black men in a position of power in the FO of an NFL team.. not the first, but one of them.. and later Modell promoted him to GM, then VP/GM..
So, you may not like it that Ozzie is loyal to Modell,, but I honestly can't blame him.. Ozzie might be the only man on the planet that really owes modell anything..
No, no blame..!! But, I would suggest he owed his football career to The Browns Organization. Otherwise what you have said is pretty much,...
A bunch of true statements,...but are still contra-Brown when viewed vs. the whole organization and the whole meaning of "desertion." I still love Ozzie, and I even do not wish poor health at Art as some have done here,....but that does not mean I have ANY appreciation for their decision-making capabilities; those leave much to be desired when matched against any character evaluation.
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i don't care.
i don't think any of you guys should either...
if he makes the hall of fame someday, i won't care... what's the point, who cares?
what happened with him is over with...
all that matters is we have the name and colors, that's all i care about
what do past trophies mean anyways?
1964 doesn't do a whole lot for me...
i just want the name, colors, and team on the field every sunday, that's all that should matter...
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What's that mean? It means we would've done the same, and felt the same way, as the people from Baltimore.
I applaud the folks in this area for sticking to it and demanding an expansion team over a relocated team...
I can say this with all honesty,,, I would NOT have followed a team in Cleveland, no matter what the name, had they been stolen from another city...
Neither would I...which is why I am so hard on the some of people in Baltimore who had the attitude of "well,it happened to us,so we don't care how we got another team." And,I don't buy any of the sympathy from these same people who thought what Art did was wrong...and yet these same people are proudly wearing Ravens colors around the city of Baltimore.
I watched maybe ... and I really mean maybe ...... 4 or 5 games in the entire time the Browns were gone.
If Cleveland had been "awarded" a stolen team, I would have been done with the NFL for good.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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These articles come out once a year.
I've let bygones be bygones, he'll never get in...at least as long as he's alive.
They wont embarrass him by letting him in, because he wont show up. Keep in mind Canton is like 60 minutes from Cleveland. I cant imagine what that would be like if he got in.
They arent that dumb...so I've just let it go.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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I care,, I don't want that man in the HOF,,,, PERIOD
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974 |
Quote:
These articles come out once a year.
I've let bygones be bygones, he'll never get in...at least as long as he's alive.
They wont embarrass him by letting him in, because he wont show up. Keep in mind Canton is like 60 minutes from Cleveland. I cant imagine what that would be like if he got in.
They arent that dumb...so I've just let it go.
people would be throwing eggs and nasty stuff at him. Either that or you would have bottlegate 2. It'd be a huge mess. I'd given up hating the guy, but I don't think he deserves the HOF after screwing over some of the loyalist fans in the NFL.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 259
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 259 |
Peen, I disagee with you there.
The stadium would have eventually been built.
Modell was flat a**ed broke. That is the main reason the Browns were moved.
The city of Baltimore and state of Maryland bailed him out plain and simple.
Nobody mentions the trips Modell made to Baltimore the year before the Browns were moved.
I think the deal was in place a year before the team moved.
I don't wish Modell any sickness or ill, but what he did to the city of Cleveland and the Browns fans can never be forgiven.
I cheered the Browns when they drafted Jim Brown. I remember the players. I remember winning the championship when all the experts said they stood no chance.
I remember when they drafted Ernie Davis, and shed a tear when he never played a down and at his passing.
Hell, I remember when Modell bought the Browns and fired Paul Brown and replaced him with Blanton Collier.
That is why I will never have any love for Modell.
That is why I will never forgive him for taking MY team away.
I know that I have always been happy since 1999, and have never booed the new team.
I don't hate the people of Baltimore, I think what happened was wrong, they should have lobbied for an expansion team.
They didn't support the Colts, we always supported the Browns, that is the shame of the whole thing.
Oh, well, my rant is over.
Modell would never get my vote for anything, especially the Hall of Fame.
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Peen, I disagee with you there.
The stadium would have eventually been built.
Modell was flat a**ed broke. That is the main reason the Browns were moved.
The city of Baltimore and state of Maryland bailed him out plain and simple.
Nobody mentions the trips Modell made to Baltimore the year before the Browns were moved.
I think the deal was in place a year before the team moved.
I don't wish Modell any sickness or ill, but what he did to the city of Cleveland and the Browns fans can never be forgiven.
I cheered the Browns when they drafted Jim Brown. I remember the players. I remember winning the championship when all the experts said they stood no chance.
I remember when they drafted Ernie Davis, and shed a tear when he never played a down and at his passing.
Hell, I remember when Modell bought the Browns and fired Paul Brown and replaced him with Blanton Collier.
That is why I will never have any love for Modell.
That is why I will never forgive him for taking MY team away.
I know that I have always been happy since 1999, and have never booed the new team.
I don't hate the people of Baltimore, I think what happened was wrong, they should have lobbied for an expansion team.
They didn't support the Colts, we always supported the Browns, that is the shame of the whole thing.
Oh, well, my rant is over.
Modell would never get my vote for anything, especially the Hall of Fame.
Wow,...I didn't think there was anyone on the board older than me,...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,267 |
Quote:
And if you had been like a city such as Baltimore who went 25 years without a team, your attitude might have changed.
I still say the politicians and citizens of the county played chicken with Model and lost.
Had a stadium deal been put in place, we would have kept the team and had a Super Bowl.
IMO that's certainly true. Although I have to wonder why does a guy who poses as a pillar of the community then lacks the courage to straight talk the loyal customers/ community who made him rich deserve a spot in the HOF? He helped negotiate a few contracts that turned out well for all involved. Hurray for Art! What a great man! I don't dislike him so much for what he did as what he didn't do. If he would have had the integrity/courage to stand up and lay it on the line, I'd still have some respect for him. Instead the pillar of our community engaged in sneaky deals with secret knocks on airplanes doors. Then blew town like a con man. If it were up to me I wouldn't let him in the HOF if he bought a ticket.Sleazy sneaks don't belong in the HOF.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
j/c
If he ever got into the hall, no Browns HOF's should shake his hand or anything...Jim Brown should nail him in the face with a forearm shiver and then let Gene Hickerson roll over his body a few times with his wheelchair.
Art Model will never be accepted in Cleveland and nor should he. The man is made of pure evil and I will never forgive him for as long as I live.
you had a good run Hank.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Three Cheers for Art Modell!
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