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Well done, sir. Well done.

Certainly that's the most likely situation. If that's what it is, so be it.

I just think that Clowney has really never had a guy like Garrett to work off of (maybe watt is the closest)... And that might just be the most exciting thing for him and you gotta ask, will that lead to him reaching his true potential finally. If that's what ends up happening, why would we let him go? I mean other than the CAP.

Maybe Clowney is at his potential?

A person who is a A+ run defender and a B+ pass rusher isn't exactly a bust IMO. (not saying you think so)

Another though...well, a couple...The measure of a good pass rusher isn't always measured by sack totals. A person who can consistently pressure the QB brings value to a D.

How do we know that Clowney didn't add much to Watt's success?
A lot goes in to measuring a player worth, and I for one am pretty happy we have Clowney. He is going to be a tremendous bookend for Myles.

If Clowney brings what I think he will, I doubt we will be able to sign him with everybody else we are looking at signing.

Then again, you never know. We(the front office and coach) may determine his value to the team is greater than the value somebody else brings, somebody we all feel is a lock to get a new contract.

When determining value you have to determine net value. If we feel that replacing anything Clowney brings will be harder and create a bigger loss then someone else (position) on the team, maybe he stays and someone else walks.

As fans it has been pretty easy for us to make the determination on who stays and who walks. Things are different now, and good teams have to let good players go all the time when they have to make decisions based on the greater good.

It should be interesting even if at times it ticks us off as to why in the heck we did what we did.

That's all a damn good point on value/potential, though the expectation with him was always the A+ pass rusher. I don't know if I've ever read of anyone looking at JJ Watt's production without Clowney to see how it trended.

It would be amazing to have him regain his expected form AND have us lock him up long term... we'd have bookend DE's for at least four more years.

Which was my point...He hasn't actually met that expectation.

Playing opposite of Garret might be a way for him to reach that level... If he does, it might be worth extending him when the time comes.

Wouldn't it be ironic if Clowney balls out and gets to the next level of elite, while JJ Watt fizzles without the help... That would be poetic to me.

Let me get this straight.

The topic of the day is Jadeveon Clowney, DE, needs to prove something, has something to prove on the football field with his play.

OK Browns fans, smartest in the NFL, I'll try and sit this topic out without many more comments, for one day, but admittedly it's difficult.

Praise the Lord, never question a Mitzvah.

It's pretty simple really. He signed a one year deal. If he plans to cash in big next year he has something to prove to 32 NFL teams this year. Complicated math I know.

Clowney could easily ball out- why, because he's been hurt so often, as a number one pick, he's been DOUBLE TEAMED his whole career. He ain't the MAN here, Miles is...he be smiling. He won't be chipped or beat on nearly as much. And he seems to like the guys- I think he might decide to stay....GO Browns!!!

We simply don't see this the same way. He played in Houston for years when J.J. watt was "the man" and he was second fiddle. To me this is almost the exact same situation as his 2015-2018 situation.

I get your point but Clowney and Watt were only healthy together for a full season once. Clowney’s best seasons with the Texans came in 2016-2018 (he made the Pro Bowl each season). In 16 and 17 Watt played a total of eight games. In 18 Watt and Clowney basically played a full season together and both made the Pro Bowl.

The biggest concern with Clowney is his health. If he is healthy, or is capable of being healthy, then he will produce.

I think anyone expecting to see eleventy-seven sacks, 88 TFL's, and a bunch of stripped balls from Clowney will be sorely disappointed. He almost certainly won't touch Myles' sack numbers, but what he WILL do is lock down his responsibilities in the Run game AND get pressures, hits, and sacks at a rate better than Vernon. I have absolutely zero doubts about that. As long as he stays healthy, that's his floor because that is, and has been, his game when healthy.

Also, of note for that 2018 season in Houston: Clowney was listed as the Right OLB. They ran a 3-4 pretty much the entire time he was there, and most of the time, he was OLB. His role will be a good bit different here.

Read all the responses, all good. I remember Clowney just dominating games in college, why he was 1 pick. His health has let him down and he's been pretty smart- NFL, not for long, he's made good money. If he's healthy, it will be interesting to see his numbers and his impact for our team. I hope he's a stud.

Other issues, how do analytics guys look at value of Guards. We just signed Chubb for less money than I thought we could. Saw an article where Teller could/should make more money than Chubb makes...do you think we'll pay near top dollar for Teller, JMHO, I love his pancake blocks, but really, is he worth more than Chubb....I don't think so....GO Browns!!!

Wasn't he the highest rated guard in the NFL last year? That makes him elite IMHO and you pay for elite. But I have a feeling his contract will get done and it will be another team friendly discount because HE WANTS TO BE HERE.

I honestly hope the whole damn team buys into that. If Hunt, Chubb, and guys like Higgins can do it, I hope the rest follow suit.

That's how culture is built.

1st the point about team friendly contracts is very important to the long and short terms success of every team in the league after decades of paying more then we should for talent to come here it's a great change to see us be able to tie up some top talent for less then premium prices.

It means we can make moves roster wise when we have a chance to make needed improvements. Players are still very well paid. Chubb making a million a month isn't going to starve him anytime soon that is for sure. It truly is a win win the player makes really good money the team is able to get or obtain talent in areas of need and that feeds into a winning program as well.

A part of that is honesty and trust between the player and the organization Ski has a great reputation with both players and management and everyone is working and pulling in the same direction. That is really refreshing and means the Browns as an organization can have sustained success and for the players it means winning and at the end of the day it may not grow their bank account it sure makes going to work each day more rewarding. IMO players that value winning as much as the value money are really the sort of players you want to attract and retain.

With the cap the way it is we see teams all the time losing top talent due to cap issues. In a sort of a way players can undermine their teams by demanding huge paydays and really it does undermine the roster. It will be very interesting to see where Baker lands. I sure hope that at the end of the day he places more value in winning then he does in eating up a huge chunk of the salary cap. I know Brady did it for years in New England, his frustration grew out of giving the team huge discounts and then the team not spending the money to improve the players around him. There is a balancing act sort of here, if the players think that their being dealt with fairly and honestly I think we can truly keep and add talent and that is going to be key to sustained success.

I also see how the Browns are currently building their roster, they have a plan for replacement built into this roster. I truly believe that we may depending on how guys on the back end like Peoples Jones and Swartz develop this year to replace OBJ and Landry with cheaper contracts. Right now OBJ and Landry eat up more resources then their positions really should 30 million on receivers is to much. It's not that they don't bring great play but 15% of the cap on 2 players is to much IMO. I truly look for us to make changes next year in our receivers room and if done right we won't skip a beat.

Teller I wouldn't pay top money to I understand he was rated the best but his contract shouldn't exceed the value of his position. I truly think that Callahan is what makes this O Line shine and not so much individual players. Again we could see a bit of a shake up along the line next year as the youngsters begin to develop and are ready to replace guys who may think their worth more then they are. I don't get the feeling that any of our guys don't understand that we can't pay everyone like their the best at their position even if they are because of salary cap stuff.

Will have to pay Bake I sure hope he isn't greedy and if he is reasonable he can help keep his own name in the headlines thru team success and can actually make more money off the field as a result by doing advertising and that sort of thing. These guys get these outside dollars as a result of performing on Sunday if they break the bank on the field they may find success and outside money much much harder to come by.

I would hope that the guys that line up around him (he's a cog (an important one, but still a piece) in the #1 Oline) influences his math. With Chubb's extension, we already have the most expensive offense in the NFL... and we still have to pay Mayfield. Chubb is also elite, but he didn't exactly set the market with his extension. They were clever with him, giving him decent money with the extra benefit of him being able to double-dip. With Chubb signed, we need to be really careful with guys like Teller and Higgins (another guy that really really needs to get paid) until we get Mayfield figured out.

I don't think Chubb took a discount. He got paid right in line.

Player getting as much as possible and team friendly deals are opposites, you sighted both. I hope we don't get into Rogers kind of deal- Mayfield and Higgins have got a "bond", yet I'd pay People-Jones more for sure. Ski said it right, we can't keep everyone, hope our draft blunders are over and we keep/get guys who are talented, available, and accountable- opposite of "Money Boy" and "Flash-he's not available"....GO Browns!!!

Agree with your statements, lots of folks think money is king, yet as Chubb showed, if you get enough money and have great environment- why ruin a good thing. I don't know about Houston. I'd agree they did right thing getting rid of their GM and coach, he stunk and hurt their organization big time.
History wise, where we are now is SO different than where we were= dang, how do you suck for decades- how many first round picks did we just throw away- we were the CLOWNS, no more, thank God....GO Browns!!!

How many games do the Browns have to win for Stefanski to keep his job.
5, 6?

If the Browns start 0-7 or even have a 5 game streak of losses some time during the season, would that make you rethink the playoff hopes.

er.
If at some point in the season the Browns don't win 5 games in a row, and it worked out that that would be the only way the Browns could qualify for the playoffs,
then where on the schedule is the easiest stretch of games to try and get those 5 wins in a row.
at KC
Houston
Chicago
At Minnesota
At LA Chargers
Arizona
Denver
Pittsburgh
At Cincinnati
At New England
Detroit
At Baltimore
Bye Week
Baltimore
LV Raiders
At Green Bay
At Pittsburgh
Cincinnati

Analytics, Can we analyze how the Browns inability to lure decent role players at Corner, or keep decent ones,
and Greedy or others not panning out at corner,

Led to the Browns to reach for position in drafting Greg Newsome in the first round of the 2021 NFL draft and kept either Terrace Marshall or Elijah Moore from being a Browns draft pick. (and will lead to the Browns to reach for position and draft a corner early in 2022.)
(and will lead to the Brownsto reach for position and draft a cornerback early in 2023.) continuing infinity.

A similar problem may have kept Julio Jones from being a Browns draft pick (yet his pre draft was less stellar, but he's about to probably be a hall of fame wide receiver.)

Least likely to happen? Bears to draft a hall of fame quarterback, or the Browns to draft a hall of fame wide receiver?

Puff puff pass bro.

1.

There is zero chance that Stefanski loses his job this year. None. Zilch. Nada.

Old habits die hard. This normally the exact time we are into those types of posts.

Who did we miss out on? We did get Hill... Is he not a Decent Role player?

Explain how Newsome is a Reach?

The only reaches are every thought he brought up in his last two posts.

He's a contrarian. He's happiest when no one agrees with his posts.

Damn, he must walk about with a perpetual smile on his face... LOL

And it's amazing how many people fall for his bait.

I find the “ignore” option is stress-relieving on this site.

You asked the first, Because I wrote the 2nd.

It's not a short answer, it's not a one word answer, it's 25years of posts on Dawgtalkers making the same point, somebody could write a book, I'm not a writer, in some posters' views ... clueless.
Reach, ... Start QB. ... start, Cap,?? how did the , or did! did the cap drop due to covid lead to more Qb's going in the first, ... than the avg year per draft...
start at QB, for reach definition, 32 individual teams with individual (qb situations in a given year effect how many qb's go ..(in this case before #26, ) and the overall
the overall siginificance of the Qb position vs, so many other on football field positions is teams only need on an all healthy day, just 1, yet ... and they play more snaps than kicker and punter so we can all agree they're siginificantly more important, than the other postitions that need only 1, (All this! <) just to define how the weight: of 5 qbs. in the first? (memory?)
4 qb's, prior to #26 overall Effected! the (reach percentage) ( Of the decision not the player, of the decision not the player, were discussing the decision to take him, not him as a player.)

of what ended up being CB 4 on the year (drft day 1,), ... Given!!! (2 givens)
Given that i'll process the individual draft as a year and don't prescribe to a philosophy, (in large part, not 100% part, but in mostly part) to the philosophy
that a draft is a conglomerate of multiple years that can be looked at not individually, ie. each individual year as it's own entity. (< which is how I sort of large part see them)

And Given #2, That I can't go back on my argument from 2013- What!Ever!Year! that Ryan Tannehill was drafted later than the Browns trade up for Rb Trent Richardson, where I made the exact argument that , (at those times rules of collective bargening, still giving the big contracts To! the rookies at #1 overall, that in regards, to Qb's that year my argument was, ... as soon as the decision was publicly understood that RG3,and whomever the other was, were going to be off the table as Qb 1, for that year, that the right thing to do was;

to look at all the rest of the players, and #3,#4, whatever it is overall the Browns picked at, that year, to look at the Qb's and that Tannehill became Qb 1 on the year up for evaluation, and just by what I saw in 5 mins of his bowl game the, my ferver for hope the Browns would select him. <<< That that whole month's long argument
that I made that year, goes in complete contradiction, to an argument that, Cb #4, can't be Cb #1 in how to look at (the reach percentage, Of the Decision again, not the player, but the decision to take the player, (Greg Newsome #26, round 1, in 2021.)

What is that ^ 1 out of 5 angles to look at that from, and I don't want to be a hypocrite from 7 years ago, (may be too late, I dunno) So,
Role players!?...
2013, Haslems had bought the Browns August of 2012.
2013 profootball reference: Browns dbs. Games plus Games started.

Buster Skrine 16/15. Joe Haden (LCB, left corner) 15/15. (SS) T.J. Ward 16/16. (FS) Tashaun Gipson 16/15
2013 continues: role players, Browns, DB's Games then games started.
Jordan Poyer, 9/0 Leon McFadden 16/2 Johnson Badmemosi 16/0 ...
... ... what's the flippin Point TL!

the 2020/2021 off season Browns were going into the 2021 NFL Draft with... (Enough/adequate, or Not enough, or Not nearly enough, Db's who had shown the consistency of... the best ability of availability, ie. the propensity to stay healthy and suit up for.

To Not demand, or show a "need" at corner. (that effects the "decision" to draft Greg Newsome, (not the player, again, this is not discussing whether he's a, or is going to be a good player or not

it's explaining, or ... asking, (analyizing), was/why/were, the Browns pigeon holed into a need,
(ok of course not, they can pick whomever they feel like)

Did! were, was, there some "influence" of need, on the decision? And!

Is this a consistent pattern, ( Oh my gosh, the crux of it all! almost reaching a point FINALY.)

IS!!! this a consistent pattern of "needing corners" over a 20 year span, that never gets solved as each time the Browns enter an April draft.

Angle #3. ...
The Browns Corner group vs. the other teams in the AFC North. (Short, what does the label Corner equal.
vs. the label, coverage linebacker, vs. the label Safety that can cover.)

Are the Browns 3rd, in the division, in players labeled corner. (Does it even matter? )
... ... ... Is hand soap body wash,- is body wash shampoo-, can you......., how important is a label.

I don't know.
Does this pattern! (if it exists at all) Keep players by opportunity cost:
: Opportunity cost is the thing you don't get by chosing something else, ie, you don't get a tight end, WR, or Qb, or OL, or DL, or Rb, or whatever, with any pick choice used on something else, (in this case db)

Offensive skill pos. players, (Which exist in limited supply, per year, per draft, per age of year they were born. Does this pattern keep Off. Skill position players per year off the Browns and onto other teams in the NFL,

and how does the NFL, or how do the NFL rules, As constructed for higher scoring games impact/increase the Weight/siginificance or "need" for Offensive skill position players, because, the game has changed to favor more high scoring games,
nobody/ few/fewer games end with teams scoring 12 or less anymore, than 35 years ago. And offenses still score more than defenses, (I think. .. obviously it's effected by the defenses' ability to Stop! an offense, of course) <effect the reach percentage of the decision to take Greg Newsome at #26 vs. others>

I give up. The Browns are just. They are going to win a lot of games, hopefully they win them all.

Why did I become a Browns fan, I was young, I can't, I'll never be able to, Look it's just football, (< ya pfft.)
Asking me to explain why I'm butthurt the Browns took a corner, for the umpteenth time, at the expense of taking an offensive skill position player,
Is akin to asking why I'm a Browns Fan, fanatic, and maybe there isn't a responsible answer to that. And maybe that's alright.

i read it and now I can't get that 10 minutes back.. Wasted.

Lots of words. No substance. A fairly typical TL post.
Newsome was the right pick at 26. No WR was going to start over our starters. Newsome will be a day one starter. Ward has shown himself fragile. We needed the depth at the position. Period.

Use your brains guys.

TL put a lot of work and effort in to that. It made sense to me.

PM me if you need an explanation.

Confused and confusing. This is going many directions and I read it, just do not share your takes much. Does BMA for draft or position figure in this?

Sincere, but reaching IMO.