DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Infrastructure

Right but that’s no different than a car getting less range when it’s packed full of people with luggage.

And then on top of that, when in this discussion, I’m thinking about resorts in Colorado or something that does have charging stations. Not at the resort itself, but the surrounding area. Especially because if it’s a ski resort, then you aren’t actually driving around that much until you leave.

Last time I was in Colorado, I saw Model X’s all the time. Apparently they can pull it off. So it’s strange why you can’t.

See, this is the problem overall with these sort of discussions on anything.

Y’all will spend all day everyday coming up with every excuse why you or “we” as a country can’t do something, and very little on what we’re actually capable of doing.

Listening to some of y’all, sounds like you plan on making the move to Hungary with your boy tucker.

I mean damn, at least bring up the cost to buy a functional EV for your needs. I can at least sympathize with that.

But when you start talking about lack of capabilities for your needs when there’s clearly stuff available for your needs, then I have to really question intent.

And that’s with overall infrastructure as well. Y’all keep saying we can’t do something. Well what the hell CAN we do?

The Tesla Model X Long Range AWD advertises a range of 353 miles per charge at a base price of $47,690.

The Tesla Model X Long Range advertises a range of 360 miles per charge at a base price of $91,190.

The Tesla Model S Long Range advertises a range of 412 miles per charge at a base price of $81,190.

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32634624/ev-longest-driving-range/

Now while the AWD X model isn't outrageous in price that's still a hefty price tag for the average buyer. Once you upgrade to the other two models it simply puts the price out of range for most people by a pretty good stretch.

I mean it "can be done" but as with every technology as it develops those prices will come down.

In 2020 the average price of light vehicles sold to consumers was $37,876. Almost a full 10k less than what the cheapest of these long range Tesla models sell for.

https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/

As I said, as the technology advances and EV's become more popular, more modest priced EV's will match or exceed these parameters. But as of now I think practical consumers working within their budget see this as an obstacle.

The fact is they aren't good for road trips or renters.

The numbers of people who choose to rent and not buy homes is growing at a fast pace.

A wind-powered 'Wokemobile' is the way to go for all you 'green new deal' supporters!

Boy oh boy! That's a knee slapper...

It's funny as hell. That's what you leftists want right?

and yet this is still more reliable than a Ford.

You can throw those ranges in the garbage for real life driving.

If you drive 70 to 75 MPH you lose about 15 percent of that range.

Driving into the wind will reduce that range.

Payload can reduce that range.

Tire traction can reduce that range. Gee none of us drive in the rain or snow

Cold weather can reduce that range by 12 percent when it's 20 degrees outside.

You lose about 2 percent of battery life every year, so after 5 years the range is going to drop about 10 percent.

Now sit down and hold onto your hat. If we want to turn on the heat while driving in the winter the range can drop by 41, yes that's forty one percent.

https://www.chargedfuture.com/7-factors-that-affect-electric-vehicle-range/

Heat? You don't need heat. You are the guy wearing short sleeved shirts down in the Muni and it is 20 degrees outside!

bro i swear, one good time, i want to try that.

december/january game, 20 degrees, no shirt and drunk as hell.

Many, many times buddy.

I’ll just place this here as more proof that trump is a complete and utter failure with everything with his name on it. Thank God he never got around to building bridges or we’d all be screwed.

https://gizmodo.com/trumps-border-wall-t...sK74KKmD_De5qrc

Trump's Border Wall Torn Apart by Arizona Monsoon Rains
Record monsoon rains have blown floodgates off their hinges as Trump's border wall breaks down.

“ It turns out ignoring bedrock environmental laws may not have been the best choice for a multibillion-dollar construction project. Photos show former President Donald Trump’s border wall in deep disrepair after summer monsoon rains literally blew floodgates off their hinges.

The damage took place near San Bernardino Ranch, a historic site that sits between Douglas, Arizona, and the San Bernardino Wildlife Refuge. Much of the West is suffering through a deep megadrought, but the monsoon rains that have swept across parts of the Southwest this summer have doused the southern half of Arizona with record-setting rains. Douglas has seen nearly double its average monsoon season rainfall so far, including a blast that came through on Monday and unleashed flooding on the Arizona-Sonora border. The National Weather Service data shows 2.15 inches (5.5 centimeters) of rain fell, which in turn funneled into washes and drove flooding.

José Manuel Pérez Cantú, the director of the nonprofit Cuenca de Los Ojos, said in an email that six gates were washed out at this location alone. Other gates were also reportedly impacted by the heavy rainfall and flooding. The power and height of the waters can be seen in not just the heavy gates ripped open but the debris that wrapped around intact portions of the wall.

Who could have predicted this? Ah yes, just about everyone.

“I will build a great wall—and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me—and I’ll build them very inexpensively,” Trump said when he announced his run for president in 2015. “I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words.”

Mexico did not, in fact, pay for the wall, which led former Trump to declare a national emergency so he could funnel money from other federal projects and programs to build the wall. Nor was the wall inexpensive, costing the public billions in overruns. It was, however, chintzily built.

In the rush to build the wall, Trump sidelined environmental and cultural protection laws. Those laws are meant to protect the natural world and historically significant artifacts and sites. But they also serve the purpose of ensuring multibillion-dollar construction projects don’t face catastrophic failures within a few years of being built.

Much of the work was outsourced to private companies that raked in billions, including Southwest Valley Constructors, which did most of the work in Arizona. The company pulled in $2.7 billion in federal contracts and has faced lawsuits from private landowners who claim explosions tied to construction sent “car-sized boulders” onto their land. (There are also multiple OSHA complaints against the company, which is a whole other issue.) The location near San Bernardino Wildlife Refuge is one of a growing number of chinks in the rushed wall. Another section in Texas where levees were destroyed has left hundreds of thousands exposed to catastrophic flooding.

“It’s clear that these were not companies that really were taking the long term integrity of the product into account,” said Myles Traphagen, the borderlands program coordinator of the Wildlands Network. “The sad thing is that it was overseen by the Army Corps of Engineers. The Army Corps has a long and illustrious history... Taking off the environmental hat, when you’re building dams, the snail darters die out and salmon are affected. However, the bottom line is that there is an economic net gain by society ... whereas the border wall is a complete suck of money. We don’t benefit by any of that.”

It remains to be seen what the future holds for the wall. President Joe Biden has put a construction moratorium in place. Still, Trump managed to get 452 miles (727 kilometers) of wall built. That has created an environmental catastrophe for one of the most fragile ecosystems in North America, a place where the wildlife from the tropics, desert, and mountains mingle. Images captured during construction of iconic saguaros being razed as well as numerous environmental impact statements laid the risks bare, and Traphagen described camera trap photos his group has taken documenting everything from rare jaguars to common javelinas pacing along the wall in search of a way around.

The severe floods may have given them a passageway near San Bernardino. And the monsoons—which have become more intense due in part to the climate crisis—could rip further parts of the shoddily constructed wall asunder. But it’s clear that there’s a need for a much deeper reckoning and remediation.

“It’s not often that an ecologist can actually put a time stamp on the day that the evolutionary history of an area was sealed off,” Traphagen said. “Step number one [to reversing course] is to open up the gates where they exist and to remove sections of border wall in places where they’re having the greatest impact to species’ movement and migration.”

Those contractors are lucky if they even got paid. They better be glad they weren't building a Casino known as the Taj Mahal. Well, formerly known as I should say. Of course when your credit is so bad you have to build a casino on loans from high interest junk bonds things like that will happen I guess.

As per your article. Is that what they mean by opening the flood gates? No, that couldn't be it because this isn't a wall at all. It's a fence.

Couple things I see in the article, one they mention the flood waters were high, based on the debris left up against the posts. Which would mean 2-3 feet of water. The areas destroyed are gates, meaning they are not permanently fixed to the structure and would be the weakest points.

Then as we've just seen in Tennessee, a 2-3 wall of water will rip a house off the foundation.

So while this damage would be concerning, when I take those variables into consideration, and that in the photo the wall itself looks fine, just the gates ripped open and pulled from their hinges, I begin to think the writer is taking liberties and trying to create a bigger story than it is.

Found more info

https://apnews.com/article/arizona-immigration-floods-monsoons-01cf484b69144c7f9cbe6ff983ca7d8b

DOUGLAS, Ariz. (AP) — Several metal flood gates in the newly built section of the U.S.-Mexico border wall in easternmost Arizona were ripped off their hinges last week by flooding from unusually heavy monsoon rains, authorities say.

A spokesman for the Border Patrol’s Tucson sector confirmed Monday the gates were open last week when water from the historic rainfall rushed through the Douglas area near the San Bernardino Wildlife Refuge in Cochise County. He said a Border Patrol team is currently assessing flood damage along the wall.

An official with Customs and Border Protection said authorities planned to repair the damage.

Flood gates are located in areas along the border to prevent boulders, branches and other debris from building up during rains. Border Patrol agents typically open the gates when major rainfall is expected.

“The rainfall this year is far above normal,” said forecaster Aaron Hardin of the National Weather Service office in Tucson.

He said so far the Tucson area has seen about 11.8 inches (30 cm) of rainfall, compared with about 1.6 inches (4 cm) during the current monsoon season that began June 15 and runs through Sept. 30.

Virtually everything that man has ever touched turns to s#.

Steaks
Vodka
Casinos that lose money (!!!)
"University"
The wall

...and people still listen to him.
Unbelievable- and yet, true.

When they are using phrases like "double the amount of normal rainfall" and "historic rains".. it's pretty easy to understand that there will be damage. Nothing man has ever built will survive if nature roars loud enough.. just a fact.

And we have built hundreds of bridges using federal money during the Trump administration.. so I would suggest you might want to stay home if that scares you.

The bridge comment was more a dig at donny for his lack of a real infrastructure bill.

When it comes to your bridge comment you may wish to consider the overall picture here. During every administration there is money spent on infrastructure which includes bridges. That however is nothing close to what he claimed he would do. Your claim seems to be, "Well he didn't stop building bridges".

In order to actually address the bridge crisis in this country a total infrastructure rebuild is and was needed. It appeared that not only he but his supporters understood that. Something we were told he would do. Rather than propose a federal infrastructure bill with any validity, his proposal was to shift much of the cost of that proposal off to the states and cities.

Now we can certainly debate whether printing money is a good idea or not. I don't think our opinions would be vastly different on that level. But what I think we can both agree on is that cities and states can't print money. There is no logistical way that states and cities could have taken on the financial burden that was being proposed.

It was pretty much a proposal that in reality wasn't a federal infrastructure bill at all. Just a grifters way of making it appear he made an effort.

Trump infrastructure plan seeks to shift funding burden to states

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-trump-infrastructure-plan-states-20180131-story.html

Hard to have a bill for something for which you don't have a plan.

I just read the numbers on the current infrastructure bill and, having done construction all my adult life, realize how truly little construction work this will get done. It will help, don't get me wrong, but people who think this will bring an end to potholes, speed up their commute, or replace all coal fired plants are just fooling themselves.

For example, there is $40 billion for bridge repair and replacement. They are replacing the 301 bridge over the Potomac River that connects MD to VA right now, it's about a 1.7 mile project and the current cost is half a billion, final will likely be three quarters of a billion... So build/replace one nice bridge in every state, spread out across the country, and that money is gone. And that wouldn't leave anything to fix older bridges that are decaying..

While you are correct that this bill alone will not solve the entire problem it seems you decided to use an example in one situation that you aren't mentioning in the second situation.

Remember all those bridges you credited Trump with? That was based on what was the current infrastructure spending. This bill is in addition to the current infrastructure spending. So it's like all the bridges Trump was building with the current infrastructure spending plus 40 billion MORE for bridges.

That, or use all of it to only repair/replace the Brent Spence bridge here in Cinci (a newer bridge that is decaying).

Just dam up the river and we won't need bridges.

Or put out flying cars already.

Infrastructure.
prefix infra and prefix intra mean within a set, or inside of a group,
while the prefix inter means something that spans outside of or through a multiple of sets or group.

And that is, imo, another reason to hate science, because those suffix's defy logic! reason! and show the particular problem of letting the educated form words.

In the prefix, "inter" the vowel letter, the e', is contained "inside of" the consonant, "ter" therefore,
inter should logically, refer to something in a set, that is contained inside a group.

but NO! the educated flip logic on it's head, because they are so dense it's frustrating and always so.

Then, The prefix, intra, and infra, both, push- the vowel, the letter a' outside- to the edge of the prefix.

Therefore, only logically intra and infra should refer to items or things that are among multiple or go between sets or groups, and not contained inside groups or sets.

But! We're dealing with the educated here, so, you know they are going to get it wrong because they're so bleepin dense!

They so constantly demand things which are as absolutely defiant of logic as holding up 3 fingers and having to say it's two, while holding up 2 and having to say it's 3.

Another instance. " it's a thin line between love and hate" which is, crazy.

because there is a "huge" amount of overlap, and all that overlap, means the line, is vague, and thus wide.

if it were a thin line, it would be two things which can not overlap at all, like, life and death.
There is no gray area, something is either alive or it's dead that's it. which is a very thin, very well defined line.
You can't trust the system. And I find with more education comes a smaller less functioning reasoning area of the brain.

I really regret reading this post after reading Lyuok's post in the COVID thread.

It’s intellectual whiplash.

That's a perfect description.

LMAO!

So last week the negotiations between a handful of centrists dems and the overwhelming majority of the rest of the left heated up then fizzled. Progressives are backing Bidens build back better plan and sticking to their guns to see it through. It's a good thing too because Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are conservatives in sheep's clothing. Those two would have loved for progressives to sign off on and vote for the 1.5T bipartisan infrastructure bill, which is mostly a republican leaning bill. Then all they would have had to do is say NO to the progressive 3.5T Human Infrastructure bill that will actually help people.

About 8-10 conservative centrist dems in the house and two conservative dem Senators are all that's in the way of doing a lot of good for working people, the poor, the old, and children. Those dems now need to get on board with both bills or lose both to the great ire of constituents.

Sinema got an underserved but deserved dose of that this past weekend:

Sinema Stalls: Constituents confront senator in Arizona State University bathroom over Build Back Better agenda and immigration

https://www.businessinsider.com/constitu...athroom-2021-10









^ This was at school while she was teaching. Below is the day before at her fancy fundraiser:











Sinema, Sinema, you can't hide, we can see your sellout side... lmao, good stuff.

This all reminds me of the Trumpians that got hounded a bit in public. Rand Paul, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and others.

And why is she teaching while being a sitting Senator? It's not like she does anything in Washington other than cozy up to her Donors anyway, I guess. I just find it odd as hell.

I think trying to claim that other than two Democratic senators that everyone else insists on holding firm at 3.5 trillion is a myth. The "I want it all and I want it now" crowd does not rule the party. And as a matter of fact, they're holding the infrastructure bill hostage. They will either have to compromise or it will cost many of them their jobs. When it's explained to their constituents that they could have gotten them a lot but instead ended up empty handed, it's not a good look.

They will also cost the democrats the house. Voters won't soon forget.

People fighting for freedom are under attack in the usa.
Standers up for the constitution are under attack in the usa.
The democrats want to steal Ameciacns families' futures, and have positioned themselves in a position antithetical to freedom and the us constitution.
Members of congress, female ones, are being followed into bathrooms by groups of people, mobs, who are small steps away from being a militarized attack mob.

The faked election party, has ruined the dollar value, now they have interrupted the ability of school lunch rooms to get food to school children, As tonights news shows teachers and administrators in Tenn iirc, having to go to grocery stores to purchase supplies to have cafeteria lunches.

So! The infrastructure, bridges, airplanes, trains- don't get on one, 1940's. electric power, and food and transportation cannot be solved
until the democrats tyranny and ignoring of all things Lawfulness, Holy, decency, or supporting Human Life and not ending it tragically are dealt with, have no hope of being fixed.
You can't fix the infrastructure in the USA until you deal with the democrats and stop them from their
humanistic, selfish lustful, Pharisee-etic, Hypocrytical, steal from others first, steal from you later, steal from somebody when nobody's left, totalitarian, time enslaving, resource confiscating, misery spreading ways, while remaining on the same side the Anti-Chirst would have on all issues.

So Infrastructure doesn't even matter, you can't talk about infrastructure in a country, when the country is on fire! The president, illegitimate, said he/ (said WE) can't even define what an American is! Which would make sense to him, if he doesn't even believe America is a soverign country anymore, which is illustrated, or demonstrated, by his support and announcement that every person in the world, or on the earth, (there is a difference) should come to the Southern Border of the US. and be welcomed with free money, free healthcare, free university, which people born in America can't get

Infrastructure is an attempt, by an empty sack of nothingness, to prop up a failing dollar value, by printing trillions, out of thin air, which will result, in hyper hyper inflation seen before in history,
but I'm not sure on a dollar, as used as widespreadly as the US dollar.
Therefore the only thing anyone should be focused on, is not infrastructure but stopping the democrats.

Progressives aren't holding a damn thing hostage. The centrist and republicans cobbled that bill together in hopes of avoiding all the crap that helps working people and not just the rich. And you need to put the joint down if think the progressives are in anyway shape or form out of line! They are carrying Biden's agenda that HE RAN ON AND YOU VOTED FOR to the finish line despite the centrist lies and trying to treat progressives like second class legislators. Nope, progressives started out at 6 Trillion based on Biden's platform for programs to help Make America Great for the lower and middle classes.

The centrist and GOP argument that we can't afford it is a damn lie! Mitch McConnell and Joe Manchin BOTH supported and passed Bush's tax cuts for the rich. Those cuts cost 5.6 trillion in deficit.



The Trump tax cuts cost 2.1 trillion added to the deficit.

Even the lowest estimate of both tax cuts has them at 3.4 trillion total or about one hundred billion less than the human infrastructure bill.

The costs of these tax cuts were no problem for Mitch and Joe. And if we cannot do for the poor over high deficits, then we could not afford those cuts when we gave millionaires and billionaires their big bonanzas (plural). Fact is, we can afford all of it and some, but we have to raise taxes on the donor class. This is the real problem; the rich elite wants it all for themselves.

So, Pit that centrist crap doesn't fly. The "I want it all and I want it now" crowd already has it all. The progressives however want working people to have a slice of that in the form of universal childcare, child tax credits, eldercare so people can go to work. Free community college to educate the workforce we need NOW, and to give us a highly trained workforce to remain globally competitive. Climate change programs to fight global warming subsidies for clean energy development, upgrading public buildings with solar, etc. There are a lot of programs to help working people in this package.

So after all these years of getting treated like the wackadoos that we ARE NOT, progressives finally get to turn it around on centrists. This time it's not a band aid and kick the can down the road, nope. This time it's progressives saying lets bite the bullet and do this right so we can reap the returns, strengthen our economy, strengthen our workforce, and ultimately our GDP. Let's take care of the working people first this time...

I hope the explain all the programs to regular people, so they see what they are losing due to ANY politician voting no. Then maybe people like you will even grasp that we can have it all. We've damn sure waited long enough for congress to take care of the people who pay most of those taxes that have funded all the wars and other BS spending politicians use to give money/tax credits to the rich and corps.

So, after progressives negotiating IN GOOD FAITH for months, the center wants to put this stall on progressives that have come down from 6 trillion to 3.5 trillion on the HIB. Don't you see how it works with the DC establishment Dems? It's our way or no way... We'll just have Joe and Krysten sink it all until progressives take what we give them... Seen this movie so MANY times smh...

So nope Pit, you don't get to go there, period. Don't try to argue because it's all blah blah blah centrist BS. And your fear mongering about voters not showing up is laughable BS, unless the center kills these bills for their corporate owners. Centrist could not beat Trump without us, so if voters leave it will because the center did diddly squat for the people. Once again centrist are trying to crap on progressives when they don't get their way, even when they voted for Biden AND his agenda!

Better tell your Senator and Rep to get on board and stay there, else the lost votes will be for the politicians who tell people they don't need Medicare at 60 that covers vision, dental, and health. They can tell the people not going back to the workforce that not reversing the GOP tax cuts, which were supposed to pay for themselves with a boon to the GDP but did not, is more important than funding childcare, funding schools, funding senior programs, etc. And good luck with that winning you votes. I can tell you right now that progressives are going after GOPer and Centrist alike next cycle with strong messaging on this IF Bidens full agenda does not get codified. Same with voting rights, abortion rights, and universal healthcare. Establishment Dems cheat us in elections, screw us over when they make promises, and treat us as undesirable all the time, EXCEPT campaign season. Then they need us... well now that comes with a price because we are only a Trump jail sentence away from splitting the party anyway. More Americans support these programs than anything the GOPers or Centrist have put forward for the last three decades. Go ahead and let them play those damn games. I dare them.

I like Joe Manchin. He is a Dem I could vote for.

How that guy is considered a dem is beyond me. He even calls himself a conservative.

You can carry on with your rant all you like. But see, here's where people lump everyone who voted for Biden in the same group when clearly we're not.

Let me tell you something else the progressives said. They said they would fix the tax code so the rich paid for all of this. That they would make the rich pay their fair share. It seems your argument is that Trump and the republicans gave that huge tax cut to the rich so that's an excuse to do the same thing for average Americans. On the surface that sounds rational. But you see, I didn't approve of Trump and the Republicans handing out huge tax cuts with no way to pay for it. While I do understand sometimes there's no choice in spending, I do not approve of bloating the deficit. Why would I approve of the democrats doing the same thing I disapproved the republicans of doing?

So my solution is simple. I think you could get Manchin to compromise on pretty much the same amount that the Trump tax cut for just the rich was. 2.1 trillion. The rest of that tax cut went to working families. Isn't that the same people you claim to be supporting now? From my understanding his stance is, and I agree, if you want more, fix the tax code as you promised you would do. That would actually be paying for the package like the progressives promised they would do.

You see, the progressives claimed that this would not bloat the deficit and they explained how. How many times have you heard Bernie say, "The billionaires will pay their fair share. That's how we're going to pay for this."? Okay, then do it.

I don't disagree with the Build Back Better program. I don't disagree with the amount the progressives want to spend on it. I just expect them to live up to what they've said all along. And that is they had a way to pay for it.

I'm not going to hold them to a lesser standard than I would Republicans. I'm not going to approve of them creating an even larger deficit when they said this wouldn't. I'm not going to say it's okay for the democrats to do the same thing I harp on republicans for doing.

So fix the tax code like they said they would. Show me you're actually going to pay for it like you said you would. You seem to forget that's what they ran on too.

In the mean time stop holding the infrastructure bill for ransom.

And what you seem to forget is most of this country isn't far left. The Democrats going home having accomplished nothing won't sell. It doesn't take that much to flip the house or the senate. Be careful what you wish for.

Thinking you just moved that goal post a bit, but we mostly agree anyway. Looks like you want to worry about the deficit, yet nobody in Washington gives a damn about it. McConnell and Manchin had no issues when it benefited donors, they just don't want that money going to the poor and working-class issues. They want to keep donors happy.

We both like what the programs will do, we both voted for Biden and his agenda, and we both want tax reforms. Where we differ is I don't think we should care about the deficit because this spend will offset itself in benefits to people and boosts to the economy. Not to mention reversing some tax cuts, all the money that will be saved on negotiated Medicare pricing, and lifting millions of kids out of poverty
by making the monthly child tax credit stimulus permanent. There is SO much in these bills to help America, its people, its businesses, and its government!

Despise deficit spending on wars, tax breaks for those who don't need them, and really despise people using deficit as an excuse when they could not genuinely care less about it but just want to politically fear monger.

I think the spending package should be a first priority, but progressives will push both tax reforms immediately after and look for ways to reduce the deficit later this year.

Actually I do agree with you all the way up to the deficit part.

I even agree that nobody in Washington cares about it either. When their party is in power, they are always willing to spend on what they view as their priorities. I think that's one of many reasons I feel neither party actually represents me as an individual. I've always been concerned with deficit spending. And really it isn't isolated to either party.

The only place I see we really disagree is that I want to see the money before we spend it. You approve of spending it before we see it. That doesn't change the fact we agree with the policies we would like to see enacted.

Infrastructure is jobs. There are no jobs in America.