Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more
He got there at the end when it mattered.
D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.
#PutHigginsIn
The Browns defense... Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating. Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving. Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs Had 1 sack Forced 0 turnovers Forced 0 3 and outs Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18
Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense
Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..
Offense: Chubb fumble Baker INT
Defense: Starting safety getting himself ejected Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum
Special Teams: Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.
I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.
It's those 2 zero's that really stood out for me. Defense wasn't going to smother their offense, just had to give the ball back to Mayfield a couple times.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
It's those 2 zero's that really stood out for me. Defense wasn't going to smother their offense, just had to give the ball back to Mayfield a couple times.
As I just posted in another thread, our avg. starting field position was our own 18 (and our best was our own 25) because our defense never made a play to get us any kind of field position. It's hard to keep pace in this league if you have to go 75-80 yards every single drive to score.
and, yet, we set the pace for much of the game despite this.
We didn't force 3-n-outs, but we held them to a couple of FG's while we scored TD's. We were cruising, then we got busted in the chops (and shot our own feet) and we never stopped reeling from that. Simple as that.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
and, yet, we set the pace for much of the game despite this.
We didn't force 3-n-outs, but we held them to a couple of FG's while we scored TD's. We were cruising, then we got busted in the chops (and shot our own feet) and we never stopped reeling from that. Simple as that.
This brings up a different point that I have been contemplating... last year a few times, specifically the Dallas and Titans games.. we blew them out, until we took our foot off the gas.. then once they started to come back, we couldn't get started again, fortunately we limped home and held them off to win...
There have also been other games like yesterday where we were cruising along until something really bad happens, and we fail to recover..
We seem to play great with momentum but when momentum swings against us, we seem to have a real hard time getting it back.... I thought we did it yesterday with that last TD drive.. 9 seconds later the Chiefs had countered that score. That's how you get momentum back...
You cannot say that about yesterday. Holding KC to 33 points in their home opener, and giving your offense the ball with 3 minutes to win the game, you cannot ask for much more than that. You'd take it in the SB, and you take it here.
DC,
We should've had a TD in the 3rd quarter I believe it was, on a similar momentum play. Deep shot that looked like a bad overthrow at first, but turned out to be Schwartz adding an unnecessary double move.
With 9 new starters I'm willing to give the D a break for not throttling Mahomey and co. Tell me WHO has kept Kelce and Hill in check...and the depleted o line in last year's Super Bowl made it an outlier imho.
That said, starting off with KC could be viewed as the best thing that happened to our D. We now KNOW what our deficiencies are. And as this D gels it's very clear what needs to be cleaned up. Woods' schemes are a different matter, but I'd be shocked if they don't upgrade along with the development of the players' chemistry.
Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more
He got there at the end when it mattered.
D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.
#PutHigginsIn
The Browns defense... Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating. Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving. Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs Had 1 sack Forced 0 turnovers Forced 0 3 and outs Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18
Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense
Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..
Offense: Chubb fumble Baker INT
Defense: Starting safety getting himself ejected Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum
Special Teams: Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.
I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.
Giving up a long pass play to 2 Hall of Famers, one of which threw a pass that no other QB in the NFL can throw, isn't a failure imo. It's to be expected that your safety will get beat by Tyreek at least once in a game.
The way our O went to sleep in the 3rd quarter, followed by turnovers, and then failing in clutch time is why we lost. The D was very very good (not great, but just under great) in the first half.
They got worn down and tired in the 2nd half cuz the O stopped doing anything, and yet still managed to hold KC to a field goal on the midfield Chubb fumble turnover.
While I don't think the last INT was the biggest reason for the loss, GREAT offenses win when they get the ball last. We're not there yet, but hopefully soon
Tell me WHO has kept Kelce and Hill in check...and the depleted o line in last year's Super Bowl made it an outlier imho.
Also, not to be forgotten is that he was still battling the turf toe he got in the game against us, so he wasn't moving as well as normal, either. He wasn't the same Mahomes in the SB.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..allowing Chiefs receivers a 5 yard cushion and a free release off of the line of scrimmage before the Browns defensive backs and LBs began to cover.
The Browns DBs did show man coverage at the LOS in the 2nd half but back peddled at the snap allowing Chiefs receivers freedom to run their routes.
Not sure what Joe Woods calls that pass defense but it sure allowed Chiefs easy first down conversions and touchdowns.
Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.
Coaching does make a difference between NFL teams that win Championships and those that are just happy to win some games.
Sometimes we blame the players when they are simply doing what they are trained to do by their coaching staff.
Time will tell, but my feeling is the gameplan for this game was to give them underneath stuff to keep the clock moving as much as possible and eliminate quick strike chunks.
Just like you want to control clock when on O to use up clock, you can try to do that on D as well.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
The Browns should have subscribed To Belicheks theroy and took Away Kelce and Hill and let Somebody beat them. If Ward cant cover Hill then he doesnt Deserve that new contract
Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.
Soooo..... they gave up a total of 16 yards less on 6 fewer completions while forcing 2 less incompletions that us.
I don't think it means what you think it means. oh, and we were torching them with the long ball... something that, with one lone exception, they didn't do to us. Had we not taken away the deep ball like we did, the combination of Mahomes-Hill-Kelce likely would have torched us more, the way they do most teams.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Looks like the Browns idea of faster LB and DB didn't work out so well against the Chiefs. Allowing Mahomes-Hill-Kelce to "beat us" wasn't such a great idea, was it?
Management went out and hired all this defensive talent, then acted as if they were not willing to use that speed to cover the Chiefs receivers.
It simply looked as the Browns defensive coaches were trying employ some sort of crazy "prevent" defense behind our DLine hoping the Browns rush would get to Mahomes. The Browns ability to blitz, was poor and I'm not blaming the LBs or DBs but the poor design of those blitz attempts.
As a Browns fan, I not such a good "homer" as a Browns fan because I refuse to overlook poor play or poor coaching. In this case, I can't help but to question why the Browwns coaching staff made it easier for Andy Reid and Mahomes to pick the Browns defense apart.
The Browns have a lot of work to do..the coaching stall included.
I agree with this take, and I think it is a solid insight into The Game as it is played. Playing to win is different than playing not to lose. We did both in the second half, with a breakdown in a glorified prevent D and it was too much for us to recover from with our three major issues icing our collapse: the fumble, the bobble, the TD, the pick.
The loss sucked eggs. No Valhalla for us. This stung. We need to avoid this in the future.
And last Sunday.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..
+1. (Clapping hands emoji.) ^post of the regular seasons year.
Now. It's not true, but, It FEELS GOOD TO SAY IT! yeah, feels good to say it.
now, I don't want to read bad words on dtmb. (but I want to write bad words on dtmb.) I could argure with myself both sides, I really don't want to read em,!!! but it would feel relief to write em. (Just to get the anger out) Now, don't really want it, but in a fairy tale world what if I were allowed 13, bad words per year? hmm. I'd have to save some for the Ravens game. I'd have to save some for the day they get mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, , I'd have to save some for draft days, I'm left with about 0.7 bad words, and they didn't even trade away players yet. and
It's less personal to say defensive scheme. than to say, This is the same Qb who fumbled on 4th and 1 and Kareem Hunt had to make a tackle on the 3 yard line, and apart from that, has shown a proclivity to make these same heaves, when being dragged down from behind.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Somebody needs to light a fire under their a$$es!!!!!!!!!!
Except the Front 4 of course.
Maybe, if it weren't a prevent in disguise. A prevent by any other name is still a prevent. There is just no way to play defense in the NFL.
Look at the Raiders, they have 0 safeties back, rushed about 9, and when the ball got thrown, the Db tackled the WR like a tackling dummy. But it took them at least one more play to get the touchdown.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
I'd like to see one of the more accomplished film reviewers on YouTube or TwitFace do a breakdown with All-22 of just what went wrong on that 75-yarder.
I'm gonna bet it wasn't scheme or call, and I'm betting that it was either someone blowing their assignment because things are new, OR it was because of the personnel we had out there? i.e. Was someone out getting an I.V. and they just caught us with our pants down?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..allowing Chiefs receivers a 5 yard cushion and a free release off of the line of scrimmage before the Browns defensive backs and LBs began to cover.
The Browns DBs did show man coverage at the LOS in the 2nd half but back peddled at the snap allowing Chiefs receivers freedom to run their routes.
Not sure what Joe Woods calls that pass defense but it sure allowed Chiefs easy first down conversions and touchdowns.
Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.
Coaching does make a difference between NFL teams that win Championships and those that are just happy to win some games.
Sometimes we blame the players when they are simply doing what they are trained to do by their coaching staff.
I think the D scheme on this first game was to keep everything in front of them and to not let Mahomes hurt us with his legs. Force them to take the underneath stuff, run the clock, prevent the BIG plays, and do your best to pressure Mahomes and disrupt his 2 second release rate any way you can... It worked in the first half, but you can't overcome the turnovers and dumb mistakes against a team that just doesn't make many mistakes. At least our team looked solid all around and Baker looked light years ahead of Lamar and Allen Sunday; he was just short of Mahomes level good in the results IMHO and better in the stats.
If you are talking about the one play drive for a touchdown. You don't need to see 22, just the instant replay, the Wr and one defender were running neck and neck, the chiefs player stopped. just stopped! on a dime, just stopped, and the Browns player kept running, and that created separation, a ton of it, right in the middle of the field. And that kind of thing happens, probably opponents practice it.
On Chubbs touchdown, half the field appeared to be unmanned by the chiefs defense.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Yes. Half a win. Prevent defenses have lost us leads and games, and taking your foot off the gas has hurt us as well. Nothing to win by correcting me, we have seen it repeatedly.
We were not as aggressive or effective in the second half. We didn't look as hungry; pretty sure of the outcome when we appeared to back off. You can overreach admittedly. I still stand by my originnal post. But there is room for latitude.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I think who your opponent is has a lot do with your strategy in this department. There were games last year where we played what people would call at least a form of prevent defense. We would gain a big lead and then play it safe on both O and D. We won in those games. Yet still a lot of people complained that we didn't win by more points. Which I think is a silly concept.
But I don't think we should attempt something like that against a team like the Chiefs. They can and do score points in bunches with a quickness. No lead is safe if you take your foot off of the gas.
Our D held them to 10 points in the first half. So no matter what anyone says it's not like our D just stunk things up all day as some seem to try and indicate. (Not trying to say you are doing that.)
So I think whether you use a prevent depends on the score and your opponent. In the case of the Chiefs, no score is safe and your opponent can light up the scoreboard at any time.
So in this game against this team I agree with you. However, depending on the opponent I may not.
All in all I think it was the turnovers which were the deciding factor far more than anything else. You just can't keep handing Mahomes the ball like that and expect to win.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
If you are talking about the one play drive for a touchdown. You don't need to see 22, just the instant replay, the Wr and one defender were running neck and neck, the chiefs player stopped. just stopped! on a dime, just stopped, and the Browns player kept running, and that created separation, a ton of it, right in the middle of the field. And that kind of thing happens, probably opponents practice it.
In hindsight it was a bad pass: short and behind the receiver, but Hill made it a positive.
As for Chubb's run, that was just an unbelievable play. I don't think I've ever seen a defense so totally out of position.
And yet it didn't feel we did that bad...was shocked at the bad stats you just ran off.
It was obvious that the difference was the Turnovers especially the first two...Bakers was least effective as it didn't give them a score just a Crappy way to end a game as we had 4 downs to move the chains and make a last second score to win the game...just was deprived of that. Other two turnovers hurt more as in momentum changes
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Just heard that Patrick Mahomes named AFC offensive player of the week...
The Browns defensive coordinator should get some of the credit for Mahones award for employing his "no contact" defense, allowing Mahones best receivers free release off of the line of scrimmage.
When your opponents QB earns offensive player of the week honors, THAT IS NOT an indication of how well the Browns pass defense played or that the defensive scheme employed by the Browns DC was a "success".
Woods and whomever is responsible for our defense deserve to be called out!
JOK got beat a couple of times by Kelce in the first half alone.
Badly, one replay JOK was on kelce and kelce ran at him and cut inside quick as a receiver, JOK just stood there flat footed..It was a welcome to the nfl moment for him for sure..TE's are better than most receivers he played against in college. That being said, I still think our LB core is close to if not the worst in the NFL, huge oversight by berry, but I can see that he was probably counting on his line and secondary to pick up alot of slack. They just didn't against KC. But we def. need at least one above average LB, I think we will see it more against teams that can run or have decent Te's. I think the Dline will get better once they get into game shape. Not playing at all during preseason really makes it hard to get used to timing and endurance. The secondary issue will be more about who's supposed to be where and help who in zone. That will come too. We have talent in both those units, we just don't have any talent at LB. This is where a good DC earns his money and masks that weakness. I still think Woods scheme is decent part of our problem
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I mean, the Chiefs scored under 30 like 1/3 of their games last year, and we were installing like 6 new starters (7 once Ronnie went out), plus new rotational guys. The D handed the offense the ball with a chance to win at the end.
I would've taken low 30s and the ball to win before the game started. Wouldn't you?
and we were installing like 6 new starters (7 once Ronnie went out), plus new rotational guys.
I heard Mary K go into a similar comment or excuse on a broadcast.
The excuse of new faces doesn't sit well. Eventually, the product is the product. The team chose the new faces. What is ready is ready and plays. What is not, does not!
LeCharles Bentley was not a better Cleveland Brown than Mitchell Schwartz, because he never got the opportunity. iirc. Eventually! What is out there, is out there. And if they need more time, if they are an unfinished product, if they are a half done casserole in the oven that needs more time to cook; the team must own that.
It is what plays on Gameday! Not what's on the way! It is what plays on Gameday! Not what's on the way!
Joe Woods has been getting heat from fans as of late. One of two things is true; either Joe Woods’ system is not compatible for the NFL or the players he has are not as good as advertised. What this means is if the Browns’ defense continues to be exploited as the Chiefs did in the season opener, either Woods or Andrew Berry won’t be here much longer. The team spent too much money on this defense and drafted too many prospects for this to be a recurring thing.
That doesn’t mean that Woods’ is on the hot seat currently. It’s far too early in the season for that. It doesn’t mean, however, that it isn’t on the table at all. If the Browns continue to struggle against the defense as they did on Sunday against the Chiefs, moves will have to be made.
This team is far too loaded with too much expensive talent to just keep letting this stuff happen. With teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Arizona on the radar still, Cleveland can’t afford to get batted around anymore.
Joe Woods still has the chance to prove his defense can work The Browns fell apart defensively on Sunday, there’s no other way to describe it. While the team needs to be able to beat the Chiefs and stop them defensively, it isn’t the worst thing that could happen.
Patrick Mahomes may very well be the best quarterback in the NFL right now, regardless of his weapons. Teams are going to struggle against him if they aren’t able to get pressure, which the Browns didn’t ever really get.
Is that on Woods or on Myles Garrett and Jadeveon Clowney? Remember, Clowney is coming off of a few bad seasons. He’s never been a big-time pass-rush guy, to begin with, and he played most of his prime next to J.J. Watt, the best defensive player of their generation.
Clearly, Woods isn’t the only issue.
For those who will go to the “…IT’S ONLY WEEK 1!”, it’s not.
We are now well over 52 weeks of Woods on the Browns. The issues that plagued the team on Sunday were there in the heartbreaking loss to the Ravens, they were there in the first game against the Steelers, and they were there in the playoff match against the Chiefs. These issues have been present for quite some time now.
Soft defenses, no blitzing, a lack of containment on mobile quarterbacks. It’s not new. It’s a prevent defense and the only thing those types of defenses do for you is prevent you from winning.
The team has a lot of big games where that defense will have a chance to shine, so Woods still has a chance to prove he’s worth keeping around. With the Lions, Raiders, Packers, and Patriots on the schedule, the Browns should be able to fully flex their defensive might. If they can’t and some of these bottom-feeding teams end up spanking the Browns defensively, then that’s when it’s going to be time to let Woods go.
Houston’s up, and despite what they looked like in Week 1, there’s no reason to suspect they can do that again against a good defense. So if the Texans hang big numbers on Cleveland in the home opener, then Woods will have a much shorter drive to pick up his things.
From segament 3 of this article...
The entire defense
Just trash. That’s the best way to describe this unit after today. It may get better, that is an absolute possibility. It may not. That’s also a possibility. After all, the same issues that plagued them all season long reared their heads once again. They played soft coverage and allowed a lot of underneath stuff, and had no ability to get to Patrick Mahomes on a consistent basis. Either Joe Woods is a bad coach, or Andrew Berry has yet to give him the players needed to run the defense. One of those is going to be found true and if the team defense continues to be this awful, one of, or both men, may find themselves gone. Giving up six scoring drives out of eight possible is horrid. Chiefs or not. After all, how are you going to get to the Super Bowl if you can’t stop an offense like the Chiefs? So it being the Chiefs isn’t an excuse.
I'm not the only Browns fan that feels the need to comment about the Browns defense. "Soft release"..allowing the Chiefs to run their pass patterns without laying a hand on them until they turn for the pass, is beyond "soft" defense.
It looked like some sort of analytics driven "prevent defense" that was created over the long summer.
I'm not blaming the players because I believe they executed the defense as the Browns coaching staff taught it.
JOK got beat a couple of times by Kelce in the first half alone.
Badly, one replay JOK was on kelce and kelce ran at him and cut inside quick as a receiver, JOK just stood there flat footed..It was a welcome to the nfl moment for him for sure..TE's are better than most receivers he played against in college. That being said, I still think our LB core is close to if not the worst in the NFL, huge oversight by berry, but I can see that he was probably counting on his line and secondary to pick up alot of slack. They just didn't against KC. But we def. need at least one above average LB, I think we will see it more against teams that can run or have decent Te's. I think the Dline will get better once they get into game shape. Not playing at all during preseason really makes it hard to get used to timing and endurance. The secondary issue will be more about who's supposed to be where and help who in zone. That will come too. We have talent in both those units, we just don't have any talent at LB. This is where a good DC earns his money and masks that weakness. I still think Woods scheme is decent part of our problem
Him and every other defender who has ever came up with the task of stopping Kelce...the guy is the best O TE that I can remember, he is unstoppable
I did miss those plays as I guess I just have come to expect Kelce in success mode so when it happened it was like onto the next set of downs what else is new Kelce getting a first downs and Mahomes high percentage of success goes to Kelce on 3rd down.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I see you ignored the fact that the D held the Chiefs (in comeback mode) to 33, despite being handed a short field late in the game, and still gave the offense the ball back to win it.
There is also a comparison to be made with the contentious discussion in the Baker thread. The defense, whatever mistakes they had made leading up to the end of the game, Myles & Clowney got that last sack when they desperately needed it. Of course this is not the whole story, but it's a damn important part of it.
I agree with you, but I'll add that if complaints about overly passive secondaries and confused defenders are still a thing in the back half of the season, then I'm taking a slightly different tone with Woods.
The one thing that ridiculous article mac just posted got right was the Woods vs Berry argument. It's either Woods isn't putting together the right D scheme, or Berry isn't giving him the right players. I can tell you right now the answer to that question (if it even needs to be said) should we still be asking later on.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
, I'd have to save some for draft days, I'm left with about 0.7 bad words, and they didn't even trade away players yet.
