DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Republicans continue the narrative that the election was fraudulent.

I'd like to know if there is ANYONE who can defend the Republicans that are continuing to promote the narrative that the last election was unsafe and fraud was rampant.

The goal of this narrative is pretty clear in my mind:

- It de-legitimizes Biden. We saw quotes from Bannon this week on this very issue.
- It strokes and plays to the Trump faithful who love conspiracy theories and feel patriotic for then transgressing Norms and Laws to defend what they perceive as an injustice (see Jan. 6th).
- It's being used as justification for voter laws and restrictions in many states.

The truth is simpler - there has been absolutely ZERO evidence to support ANY of the mass vote fraud claims. None. Zilch. Nada. We've even had the lunacy of an amateur group called the Cyber Ninjas - who have a clear agenda and pre-conceived determination that the Maricopa County election results were fraudulent ..... conduct a wholly improper audit. And what did they conclude? They found MORE votes for Biden than the official results.

And yet - many Republicans are continuing a simple but massive lie that suggests that one of the fundamental pillars of the US Democracy is unsafe and not to be trusted. Personally I know where the direction is coming from, but we'll put that aside for the purposes of this discussion so we don't get side tracked by talk of individuals.

I'd post any one of hundreds of articles on this subject - highlighting the overwhelming evidence of no voter fraud. The consistent undermining and debunking of claims - many of this coming from Republicans in positions to know and verify the mechanics and security of the election. AND the States and politicians that continue to publicly promote a narrative that simply does not stand up to the most meager scrutiny . . . . but people have their own sources and aren't going to read new ones no matter how factual....

So - who wants or can defend this political stunt and justify the harm it is doing? Anyone?

I suppose to some all that is proven is there was no evidence of fraud, but that doesn't mean there wasn't.

I am not a conspiracy guy, so I guess what I am saying is, who cares at this point?

People don't need to delegitimize the President. He is doing a good enough job all by himself.

Seems you buy into exactly what the Lie is meant to promote. A very good example. TY.

The fact that the choices were Trump or Biden, and people were okay with that, shows me that some of the fundamental pillars of the US Democracy are unsafe and not to be trusted. Just saying.

While you may be right about the Republicans motives, blind faith in the system isn't the answer either. Auditing and transparency shouldn't be seen as a bad thing, imo.

I also have to question your absolutism. You proclaim "overwhelming evidence of no voter fraud" when there have clearly been some incidents of fraud. I understand wanting to make everything black and white, but things are rarely that simple. Yes, the Republicans are shady, but opposing them doesn't automatically make one righteous.

BS.

I agree tha the choice of Biden or Trump spells issues that are deeply concerning. But that is wholly a different issue and nothing what so ever to do with the question I asked.

As for indications of some voter fraud ... yes, there was some. Just like there has been at every election I can think of. But that smudging of the facts is part of the issue. mixing in a "truth" about some individual fruad here and there - when discussing the topic of mass voter fraud that would be sufficient to overturn a win for Trump into a landslide victory for Biden.

There is undeniably no evidence of MASS VOTER FRAUD. None.

You may be right about the choice not being directly related to the question you asked. To me, though, the fact that the awful choice is the question we should be considering instead is reason enough to include it in the thread. At times, it feels like the continued debate on fraud is being sustained by both parties to distract people from asking that question of the choices.

Again, the absolutes are worrisome to me. "Undeniably", "no evidence", "None." It seems to me that that is its own sort of "smudging". Human psychology gives people a tendency to fall into paradigms. Some paradigms are better than others, but when they calcify to the point of absolutism, it's practically never a good thing.

Only one party, especially the man leading the party has brought up fraud. The other party has only been defending against the lie.

I mean if you're trying to point out who it is distracting us.

I don't think a lot of people were okay with that. I know I sure wasn't. I think people feel more caught in the maelstrom of breaking away from voting for Person X, but then they compromise because they don't want Person Y to win. That's a flawed aspect of a bipartisan system run by two entities who are not short on corruption and personal gain.

I don't think that mgh is preaching blind faith either. If there is legitimate concern or reason to believe fraud occurred, then by all means, please audit. That's not the point, though. The pillars are a federal government trying to nullify, overrule, or undermine a state-certified election result. That is a pillar, and it's hypocritical in the Republicans' case because they believe in giving more power to the states - something that I am more on bored with in a general sense. The basis of all this conduct was based on the petulant, narcissistic, childish behavior of one individual.

I also think that you're nitpicking on the last point. He said "overwhelming evidence of no voter fraud" but we all know he meant "overwhelming evidence of no SIGNIFICANT voter fraud" that would remotely change the results of the election.

I wholeheartedly agree that things are often not black and white. With the amount of lawsuits, audits, and post-mortem reviews, combined with everything we saw from Trump, Giuliani and the like, this was definitely a case of black-and-white.

I also don't think that anyone is making the point that merely opposing Republicans is righteous. Plenty of people all over the place who oppose(d) Trump have a ton of warts, including the current administration.

On this issue, however, they are in the right, and you can base that on data, moral sentiment, retrospect, or whatever lens you want to view it in, as long as it's a lens of reality and pragmatism.

Sounds like a quote from a communist troll farm.

All they had to do is run a decent human being. It's really not that complicated. Yet here they are still endorsing him.

I can't help it you can't see the truth of the matter. Sorry if you choose to call it something else. The Soviets tried calling themselves a socialist republic.

I said exactly what I meant. In law all that really matters is what you can prove, not what you think.

No evidence, end of story, right or wrong. Old news. Nothing to talk about on this front.

I think a big part of what has help perpetuate the thought is the democrat's all out unwillingness to have some sort of voter reform that does require ID, and seeming openness in allowing undocumented illegals in to the country.

Not supporting that leads many in to thinking the rigging of elections is something you support and encourage. You support vaccine ID's yet you don't care about proving you are legal to vote?

There is a disconnect there.

I'd actually like to have a conversation over what might be a valid voter reform, to include talks about IDs and whatnot. I think there is a productive conversation there.

But, if we're being honest with ourselves when talking about "the big part" of why certain people think that elections are rigged, I think we all know what - or maybe I should say "who" - is driving that.

No amount of voter ID confirmation, or any sort of other objectivity could have gotten in the way of that. It's perpetuated denial.

And yes, I think people can be obtuse about it or try and displace blame elsewhere, but if we're all honest with ourselves, I think we can identify the true core problem.

You seem to be missing a lot by stating generalizations. Let me give you a couple of examples.

Military ID is accepted. Veterans ID is not. College students ID is not. Both are picture ID's. It's odd because you can prove residence by taking bills that were mailed to you in order to get a drivers license, but not to vote.

It's not about "voter ID". It never has been.

And if it's " Old news. Nothing to talk about on this front.", why is it that over 70% of Republicans believe it's true and Trump once again held a rally this week promoting it yet again? It seems it's still "something to talk about" for those who promote it.

As I said earlier, and maybe this answers Lovers question as well. There is no proof has been found, so I would like the former President to quit talking about it no matter how much he believes it even if what he is saying is 100% correct.

The point is moot if you can't prove it. I think back to the OJ trial. Everybody and their brother feels OJ killed his wife, but my stance was and has been that he was found innocent, so he is innocent, even if my feelings felt otherwise.

A few around here might remember those conversations. I wasn't very popular with that opinion.

This isn't to compare the two other than to express my feelings on the matter.

There's one place we certainly disagree. I've never heard of anyone being found innocent. There's not guilty, which simply means they can't prove your guilt. But they are certainly not saying you are innocent.

There's one thing I've noticed you have refused to say. That's that there "was no mass voter fraud". And until people such as yourself start saying that Trump has no reason to stop saying the election was stolen.

I don't normally post in this forum as I prefer not to get into arguments but I think a lot of this voter fraud stuff by the Republicans stems from election night. I don't know how many of you saw this, I did, while watching election results I was looking at the scroll at the bottom and saw the number of votes in Pennsylvania for Trump and Biden that had been counted up to that point, I think it was around 80%, a few seconds later when the scroll came around to Pennsylvania again Trump had some how lost votes while Biden's number had gone up almost exactly the same number of votes. I figured it was a glitch but other people have pointed out that it happened for a few other states too. So was it election fraud or did someone at accidentally put in the wrong numbers at the News station I don't know, but I do know that I saw it with my own eyes.

Trump's votes didn't "go down". In many states the people who voted in person had their votes counted first. Which gave Trump big leads. After that the mail in votes were counted which gave Biden a huge advantage. People claimed fraud because they didn't believe Biden closed the gap. Mostly from not understanding which votes were counted first.

Even Trump didn't try to claim "his votes went down".

There were also glitches in the live reporting/updating of the results. IIRC, someone said that a number was transcribed incorrectly into an excel spreadsheet that was later corrected.

So not the votes themselves, but how the counting was being reported in the news as it was happening. Not that hard to envision given the chaos of election night.

Yes they did, I saw it myself. The scroll showed Trump had X many votes and Biden had X many, the next time the scroll came back to Pennsylvania (about a minute or so later) Trump's total was less than before while Biden's had increased almost the same amount. Not saying it was fraud but it did happen.

Check Oobers post above.

You are twisting words on the innocent and guilty comment. No doubt it is found not guilty, thus they are also deemed innocent of the charges filed and evidence presented, or lack there of...quit playing games. Save it for someone else.

True on the voter fraud claim because I don't know if there was or wasn't. I just know there is no proof, thus I have to go with that. Joe Biden is the elected president. You have to understand, the only vote I know 100% about is mine, at least how I marked it on election day. If it was counted, changed, or thrown out, I have no clue.

Like I said, it may not have been voter fraud but I think this is what got the Republican voters riled up. Because if i saw the changes I'm sure others did too.

This is as good a time as any to echo dawglover's post above. Nobody, not one single person has ever said our election/voting system is perfect. But to continue the message that these imperfections in the system somehow delegitimizes the election has now (after all of the audits, investigations, and dead-end lawsuits) risen to a level beyond just being deliberately obtuse.

Yet even after an explanation is given they ignore that and believe what makes them feel better.

I'm not playing any games. Nobody has ever been found innocent unless a conviction has been overturned and a guilty verdict was vacated. Never.

The fact that you still don't know is exactly why our election process has been undermined. You are dong nothing but fueling the fire.

This is entirely the point really. One side is making a claim and it is 100% unsubstantiated by ANY proof.

You have it backwards though -- you seem to believe that you can claim anything and in the absence of proof to the contrary, then the claim is valid. That is not the law. It is not common sense. It is not even at the level of kindergarten schtick .... if you make a claim - the onus is on YOU to substantiate the claim. Period.

Thank you for proving and validating my point 100%.

The alternate is for me to claim you are an alien from a distant galaxy. And in the absence of any proof to the contrary - by your metric, it is a valid claim.

I really thought you were better than this - despite all the 'communist' trolling you throw out there.

I don't know if you are deliberately trying to deflect and mix issues up? Or just making assumptions about what others think and how they conduct themselves at large?

[1] Is there ANY proof of mass voter fraud? Any - anywhere? Hard evidence as opposed to rhetoric and repeated claims that have been unsubstantiated .... if so please provide some.

[2] In the absence of any proof asked for in [1] .... then it would seem reasonable to state "There is zero proof of mass voter fraud" .... an absolute, yes ... but based on fact.

[3] I have no idea where the idea of Righteousness comes in. As I said, maybe that's a you thing, maybe it's a deflection or variable thrown in to obstruficate? ... But as someone said - every side has it's warts. No-one claimed the system is perfect. What I wrote this post about is the GOP and how they are willfully and deliberately and in a calculated fashion undermining confidence in our elections. Based on nothing more than Trump's ego and political shenanigans with anything but the countries best interest at heart.

You're welcome. I never disagreed with your point. Claims were made and nothing was found. End of story.

As to if there was, sorry, once I vote, I just don't know what happens to my vote. I assume it is counted and I assume false votes aren't added, but I don't know that vote's haven't, weren't, or won't be added.

Sorry if I am not as trusting in the process as you. I have long questioned the validity of our voting system. Not long ago we were talking about hanging chads and you were all up in arms.

I have no idea if you could vote in that election. When I say "you", I refer to members of your party.

If you think so, so be it. I really don't care what some of you think. As long as we don't ID voters, it's all bogus IMO.

I've lived in and voted in Ohio, AZ and NC... never once been asked for ID. Your claim and stance on this seems contrived at the very best.

That's weird. Odd. When I walk in to vote, I get greeted by the workers: "hi Arch, how ya doing? I need to see your i.d." How can that be? They know me, yet still need to see my driver's license. yet, you've never had to show an i.d.? edited to add: I think that's a problem.

Well it was 20 years ago when I was voting in OH.

As far as I know lots of states do not have ID requirement and even more don't require a photo ID. Why that would be a problem for you I don't know. Fear maybe? Fear of something that has been investigated over and over and over and found to have no substance to it? I mean Trump rallied on mass voter fraud - when in office, he had a hand picked commission to look into it across the USA .... and what did they find? Nada. Much like the Cyber Ninjas. . . . I mean when you have a hand picked, pre-dispositioned team of "auditors" and politicians looking to prove that they were right and they come up with zilch ... maybe at some point you have to admit you are chasing shadows.

As I said, and arch said, that is a problem.

Well, I've been voting in Ohio for well over 20 years. I have had to show an I.D. EVERY time.

Why do some states/counties/whatever NOT require an i.d.?

You don't see that as a problem?????

Don't try to poo poo it away by saying it was 20 years ago. I had to show MY i.d. 20 years ago, in Ohio.

You really feel NOT having to show an i.d. to vote is okay? Seriously?

So, if that WERE the case, I could vote here, and at the next place, and the next place, and the next place?

The reason for an i.d. to vote is to make sure you are registered, and to make sure you vote exactly 1 time.

Arizona and NC don't require an i.d. to vote? If so, we've found a huge problem.

I can't even buy Sudafed without showing an i.d.

If I go to a bank branch (where I bank) that I normally don't go to, I can't even DEPOSIT money without an i.d.

But not having to show an i.d. to vote is just fine with you????

No you couldn't... For one that would be illegal, two you would get caught.

A photo ID is not required to vote in Ohio.

A utility bill, government check, bank statement or a paycheck and other government documents are all acceptable forms of ID in order to vote in Ohio.

https://www.ohiosos.gov/elections/voters...GzNAjujcnBszQhR

Arizona and North Carolina's current voter ID laws are similar to Ohio's. Arizona's requires to forms of ID if no photo ID is available, i.e., utility bill and a bank statement. North Carolina required a photo ID, but the law was permanently enjoined by the NC supreme court.

https://azsos.gov/elections/voting-election

https://www.ncsbe.gov/voting/voter-id

Voter ID laws by state:

https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state

Absolutely awesome. HERE is what I was responding to. Hint, it's your post: "
I've lived in and voted in Ohio, AZ and NC... never once been asked for ID. Your claim and stance on this seems contrived at the very best."


That's pretty damn misleading. So, you have to show SOMETHING saying you are who you say. Thanks. Next.