DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum So whats up with our D part II...Pass Defense.

Can it be so simple to say the lack of pressure...YES!!!

Only the Panthers have a more inept Pass Rush.

Okay well we indentified the major reason now Why and what can we do?

Why? Wimbley is our steadiest pass rusher and he does get chip blocked on many occasions. But teams with weak OTs I see them more and more have short drop backs and a get rid of the ball in 3 seconds.

2 things we do defensively which will proliferate that offensive game plan.

1. Play a soft D-backfield not to give up big plays. This leaves underneath routes open and somebody to go to on a quick time pass game.

2. We apply no pressure up the middle...almost by design.

Up the middle is where we can back up the Interior OL into the QBs lap even without getting to the QB we could force the QB into more errors as the congestion could make him hurry or lose his concentration. And being its an underneath passing game we are closer to the QB to bat down the ball or tip it.

In the RAMs game this was so evident. On many occasions we rushed 4 and had the DTs over the OTs and the OLB/DE's outside of the OTs and actually had NOBODY on the LOS up the middle. This with us probably facing one of the worst interior OLs we will find. Our only sack came with pressure up the middle on an individual effort by Kelley and this just isn't part of his game.

So some of it is talent...but honestly I'm going to do something I rarely do.

Point the finger at the coaching and towards Grantham specifically.

It has been on record that Grantham does not like to use many blitz packages and RAC has been demanding them lately. But sometimes coaches who don't like playing a style don't teach it well.

OUR BLITZ PACKAGES SUCK!!!

Some of our Safety blitzes or Corner blitzes (I don't think I've seen too many Corner blitzes) are well designed and get through usually but too often too late to cause any damage.

WE TIP OUR BLITZES WAY TOO EARLY AND DON'T DISQUISE THEM WELL.

We don't fake blitzes enough so that when we do blitz all of a sudden there is a LB out of place coming to the LOS incorrectly trying to jump the cadance...the QB usually stops and points as do the OLmen and voila - Our guys back up and then blitz in that same spot we just broadcasted our blitz. Just horrible execution on our blitz packages. I'm sorry our players or not that dumb so I must conclude that we just don't coach them up well for blitzes.

I would wish RAC to take a more hands on in coaching the D.

Also many times our calls on the blitzes are bad. I've seen too many times where we try the overload blitz from the outside and the team either checks off or has out manuevered us by calling a run to the opposite side.

Or we send our SS on a blitz to have a run play called and now our SS is out of position.

We just are very bad in our blitzes...so we don't have a consistant team pressure from our 5 man rush (2 OLB, NT, 2 DEs) and we suck at blitzing.

Not a good combination.

Actually the best package I saw out there ONCE and ONLY ONCE and wonder why we never have seen it again. On an Obvious Passing Down:

DL - RDE Robaire (would like to see McMillan), NT Willie McG, LDE Thompson.

WOLB Wimbley - SOLB Peek

Willie McG created so much havoc from the NT position it was great!

Can't understand why Kelley is in there on an obvious passing down as well as Robaire and Shaun. Bring in our Guns!!

But if we don't want to improve that front 5 on pass rushes then at least get creative on some blitzes.

Corners...Bodden and Wright both all too often lately I see them defending their WRs and when the WR puts their hands up to catch the ball we never turn around...Again in the Rams game the ball actually hit our Corners in the back (Both Bodden and EW...EW was called for pass INTerference).

If the turn to the ball they actually can make some INTs.

Not to put all the blame on them but remember because of the lack of a pass rush our corners are afraid of turning and then have the double move put on them which can only be done if the QB is having all day to throw. Which in our case is all too often.

Early on...maybe the first game...no it was against NE. EW turned to look at the ball and now with his back turned...Moss disappeared EW turned back to the WR and he was gone...you can see the panic in him. The was the last time I saw EW turn to the QB/Ball while defending a WR....EW - they all aren't like MOSS there is only one MOSS!

Safeties...
Pool gets a lot of heat on this board and I cannot understand why. No I don't see him making impact plays but I see him trying to master the cover 2 and getting better at it with each game.

SS which usually lines up over the TE or on the TE side in the Cover 2 has been Sean Jones and as of late his coverage skills have really gone south.

I don't see the same playing to the skill sets we have out there that we see on our more successful Offensive side of the ball.

Leon Williams is very athletic but we can't bring him out there to play a disciplined non-agressive defense. The best use I saw of him was in his rookie season as the Vick Spy. We just don't see us creating our own matchups and instead we let the opposing offenses dictate the matchups to us. Mostly in their favor.

Our LBs don't seem to understand what a passing lane is and that it is their duty to drop back into it.

It is so hard to criticize the DBs too much considering their is no pressure to assist them. With a consistant pressure they would have a clock inside of them telling them this is it...jump the route but with the QB being able to sit there and escape the little pressure we can provide they are almost forced into playing conservative and with their backs to the ball. There is no timing clock for them.

So what I see is lack of utilizing the best front 4 or 5 to bring on an effective pass rush...why, for the fear of a draw???

I see a lack of execution in our blitz packages.

I see a passive DBfield and you really can't blame them too much.

Basically our current pass Defense is keep it in front and make them complete more than one pass a series to get the first down. Pretty much hoping the QB will mess up or the WR will drop one.

What can we do...commit some unique DL on passing downs...I'd love to see 5 LBs...Wimbley, McMillan, McG, Thompson and Peek in all at the same time bringing on an effective speed rush with stunts and getting creative.

Practice the blitz packages and we have to take advantages of weaknesses especially up the middle...heck 8 years of watching our weak interiors should have taught us how effective that could be to attack them.

We must disguise the blitz...that means to show a blitz on every occasion, every down - lull them to sleep and then actually bring it every now and then!

Create our matchups not let the Offense dictate it to us. Best example is every TE who is not a blocking TE...have Pool cover them one on one - let Jones fall back and play the FS role and roam the backfield. But we let the Offense dictate the matchup and all design their plays so that Jones is taking the TE.

Well enough for now again please feel free to contribute and add your two cents. Question me on anything new or on anything you disagree with.

As always JMHO

I agree with a lot that you've written, but I'm curious... where has it been pointed out that Romeo has demanding more blitzes from a reluctant Grantham? It wouldn't surprise me, but I'd like to know who said so.

ask Attack - I believe he has mentioned it on more than one occasion and I simply have trusted his findings (think he posted the quotes or article previously)???

Personally I have not read or saw a presser stating that. I'm sure Attack will provide us with the where and when.

JMHWish

Excellent post " Tab " .. The key here , as I have been screaming about for some time is the usage of player personal on any given down. ie , wrong folks on the field at the wrong time .. As many know , I'm not a big supporter of RAC. and this is one of the reasons.. If , as it seems , Grantham can't giter done , then he needs to get involved " Big Time " .. If you need to step on toes , just do it . Your the Head Coach !

If you don't have the bulk up front , throw speed at them . Anything !

Sorry to be Captain Obvious, but the difference between a pretty good DB and an All-Pro is a dominating pass rush. You leave these corners on an island for 5 seconds and they are going to be toast, no matter who they are. If you can't do it with your front 3 or 4, then you have to figure out how to blitz effectively - which seems so elusive to the Browns, but just comes naturally to teams like the Steelers. Maybe we need to steal one of their D coaches ...

Excellent post.

I too have wondered why we don't have a pass rush package consisting of Wimbley, McGinest, Thompson and McMillan on the DL.

I mentioned it in the chatroom before the Baltimore game I think it was, and I was shot down saying "the numbers don't match up...you can't have linebackers in the 50's on the line" or something like that...I didn't buy it because I know that's not how it works. You could line up a corner on the DL for crying out loud if you wanted to.

I think we need to get more creative on the D. I too see our lack of disguising blitzes...I sit there thinking "Ok...every time we show blitz...we come...we hardly ever fake a blitz."

What we should be doing is faking everything, almost similar to the UFO but not nearly as wacky. I mean, corners and safeties should be faking blitz before dropping into coverage and such (less corner, more safety).

I rarely see us do corner or safety blitzes, either.

I know, I know, once we fix the DL, everything else will be fixed too...I don't buy that...we need to get more creative. Look at the Giants...yes they have an awesome front four, but their new coordinator has cranked up the blitz and this year they're REALLY getting after people.

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Actually the best package I saw out there ONCE and ONLY ONCE and wonder why we never have seen it again. On an Obvious Passing Down:

DL - RDE Robaire (would like to see McMillan), NT Willie McG, LDE Thompson.

WOLB Wimbley - SOLB Peek

Willie McG created so much havoc from the NT position it was great!

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That there there is RAC right there.

I think he has gotten more involved in the defense starting with the Pats game. That's the first one in which we saw some crazy defensive lines.

At the same time, he has to be considerate of Grantham so as not to simply "take over". I know winning is everything, but if he can "coach up" Grantham the end result is the same. Perhaps RAC has or will get more involved in the actual practices. Someone has to coach these guys if Grantham can't.

I believe next season we'll have some upgrades to the D-line. That should help. It's still going to take two years before we dominate. For right now, we have an underachieving DL and a slew of young players who need experience and coaching. There will be no new coming in this season and since you can't teach experience all they can do is coach them and ride it out until.

WE TIP OUR BLITZES WAY TOO EARLY AND DON'T DISQUISE THEM WELL.

the most important thing u said in the entire post. it reminds me of watching a highschool team that is switching to a more aggressive defense. Its just bad.

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It's a team that's excited about what lies ahead, as well. Chudzinski plans to install more wrinkles as the season progresses, so the improvement the Browns have made may only be a sign of things to come.

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Eo,, I counted only twice last week, but against Miami I counted 5 times that wimbley was simply mulled.. (I don't know if it was happening in previous games but a friend mentioned it and I began watching for it...)

You would think that teams will continue to hold him until either Peek or McGinnist show they are a force....JMO however

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Can it be so simple to say the lack of pressure...YES!!!

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EO...Just another basic concept of football today...

Teams that protect their QB while sacking and pressuring the opponents QB are usually in the hunt for the playoffs and a possible Super Bowl victory.

Seattle is ranked 4th in the NFL in sacks...it will be interesting to see if our ability to protect Anderson is a key to today's game.

BTW, the Browns defense ranks 31st in the NFL with just 7 sacks...Is that correct?...only 7 sacks?

And our sack leader in the preseason, sets on the bench for the most part....simply unbelievable.

Great test today of the basics of the game...Oline protection vs defensive pressure.

Also, on the other side of the coin...our defense which is one of the worst at pressuring the QB vs Seattle pass offense which ranks 11th in the NFL.

It's obvious after watching this game that RAC is more involved in the defense right now. The past two weeks we have seen him repeatedly coaching the defense from the sideline. Grantham's not out of it at all, but RAC is doing a bit of situational helping for sure.

Pass Rush sucks...

Robaire Smith is the only one that does well...

i do know one thing though... when we need the stop.. we get it!

Props to Sean Jones and an interception return of 30 yards.

EArly in the first quarter and the Browns didn't get any first downs from it. I'm not going to overlook the first thing that looked like an

ALMOST DEFENSIVE TOUCHDOWN!!!

6 in a row is still possible , 8-3 facing a game in Phoenix. Now that should be a Sunday night game.

We blitz? i saw a couple CB/S blitzes, rarely, that's it. and many times we showed blitz and then backed 2-3 guys off to only send 3

there were occasions where we rushed TWO D-linemen!!!! and most of the 4th qtr/OT we rushed 3. get rid of grantham NOW!, he is a sorry ass Coordinator, plain and simple. we have telent, yet it is squandered. rushing 3 D-linemen rarely does anything but allow a QB to find a seem to gain more yardage.

I am happy we won, but i said during the 4th quarter that 2:20-something was too much time to give them with our defence.

I love how we taket the fight to the other team on offence, but on defence we sit back and let them dictate to us.

EO, I agree with most if not all of what you said, you summed it up pretty good I think. I want to say something here, gulp. AD has been on the SS move to NT, I find myself agreeing I think it’s time to move SS over the center, based on what I saw yesterday I would agree moving SS over to DE, was a bad move, it’s clear to this poster that SS, is for now our best option at the NT position.

I still don’t agree with the idea, that we need to make a coaching change, on the defensive side of the ball, however we have got to find a way to apply consistent pressure or we are going to get our asses handed to us by the better offensive teams.

The poor tackling situation and a porous run defense seems to have vastly improved over the past 2 games. Kudos to the players and the coaches for that. Now we have to address the lack of imagination with our blitz packages. And we need to become more aggressive on passing downs. I hate to see us regress though, and I will take a bend but don’t break, conservative, no blitz defense over what we saw earlier this year. At least make the opposing teams offense have to execute over and over again to gain points. The over the top stuff we saw earlier this year is worse then dieing slowly, I think.

The positive is we have improved, so if we can continue to improve, perhaps we have a chance.


To sum up the our lack of pressure has been and continues to be our biggest problem in the pass defense, no question there.

JMHO

EO -
Good post. I wonder if Grantham understands the talent he has on his team or not? I know that we do not have much on our d side of the ball but in obvious passing situations, like the end of the Seahawks game, our best pass rushers are, Wimbley, Peek and R.Smith. IF you are going to rush the passer, you need atleast two of those guys in and rushing. IF you need to spell on of them, why not put Thompson in. OR how about using McGinest in the middle of the rush with those other guys coming of the edges. Sooner or later, someone in the Browns org( RAC ) has to address this or we will NOT beat the better teams in this league. And really, the seahawk coach( Holmgren) blew this game for them because he was passing all day on us and the one time he should have passed, he ran up the middle!

If your only going to rush Three , then make it three speed guys , not the fatties ! You just might catch a break !

I believe this is what you were responding to..

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We were more aggressive last season, with less talent on the field", . "Our corners can cover, we have guys that can get to the quarterback... but when we are schemed out of the play, what can we do?

The opposition sees this and attacks. We are better than we are showing, but until the leash is taken off or Coach (Crennel) gets really involved again, we are going to have issues.”

As the defense has struggled early in the season, the most evident problem has been on the inability of the team to stop the run and prevent big plays in the passing game. While the defense was beaten over the top in the Browns first three games, the play of the defensive backfield has been somewhat improved in recent weeks.

“The problem is, we have not fully committed to stopping the run. We show seven or eight up, but often we are backing off. I see some changes in the way we are going to play, as Coach (Crennel) has been more involved,” the source continued. “He (Crennel) likes an aggressive defensive, as long as the corners are dependable. I expect us to press more and let us guys make plays.

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Those are quotes from player/s who were commenting on whats been going wrong..as U can see while we MAY have thought Rac was handcuffing the D , the player/s are saying he likes a aggressive D...soooo add two and two..when at NE , the Pats were aggressive ..of course they had the guns to shoot cannon shots, we don't but we saw a more aggressive D last year WITH LESS TALENT...

Grantham is the weak link. Beat the SeaHonks, but it was his D (no pressure, no time) and we were getting beat with a backside LB trying to cover about 5 times that day without adjustment. Our DC is our weak link; the lack of pressure and fundamental tackling is Romeo. If it isn't in, he chooses to have this garbage. Not sure Grantham has the "Hard iron heart" to be a merciless D-man in the bigs. Is he just spineless and afraid to bring more pressure more often. We have playbooks, not players. Turn McGinest and Wimbley and Peek LOOSE. Remember the "Unleash Mean Joe Green" movement in my youth when he wasn't playing. If somebody beats you, Like Pukesburg, year in & out with blitz and aggressive tackling, how can you not learn to try some of that and do what winners do? Granty doth not get it.
I want more notches please. And may the Elf be with us!

So that is what? Two in three weeks? We disguise it so well, I never even see it! Stealth UFO package apparently. Opponents have been way blitzed by us and never even knew it!
I want more notches please. And may the Elf be with us!

Another interesting thing to chew on is our safeties...

In one of Rac's pressers he was asked:
why are the safeties getting beat over the top?"

His reply:
Because they're not staying back everytime."
Now it is the job of the DC to make sure guys aren't out of position and someone besides Rac had to see this was happening..
When Russell left a lot of the schem change put more responsibilities on Jones and it was too much..
I remember Rac saying the guys are doing too much and he was going to talk to Jones..
Apparently he's worked with Jones , and U see his play has improved..
My thoughts are why wasn't this done several games ago by the coordinator?

Plus that one quote by a player saying that Todd wasn't a good communicator..now I mention again this is not earth shattering..MANY people are not good communicators in life...fact is communication is essential on defense..and the guys were not communicating with each other..as evidenced by this remark...
"Also, it is a huge help getting Willie (McGinest) back on the field. You would be shocked the number of times he was switched things up for us, getting us out of bad spots the past couple weeks.”

This is interesting that it took McGinest to get them in the right positions..something no one else was establishing with each other..
Sure the guys are young but some of them have been in the league for a while and should recognize things out of place..

eotab i agree with your assessment

We don't have the most talented D in the leauge, especailly on our front 7, but i fail to belive that McGinest, Wimbley, and Peek "can't" get pressure on the Qb if the scheme was correct.

Often i see the same rush 3 or rush 4 and grantham hardly "ever" tries to get pressure with anyone other than the OLB. that's it, 90% of our so called blitzes are seding the OL and the DL..rushing only 5...Grantham is not aggressive enough in this regard

This D could improve tons if would would "mix it up" a little bit. Our Run d has improve somewhat the last few weeks, this is due to some changes on the DL IE(Robiare Smith and Roye spliting, Kelly and Shaun smith spliting, and Frasier and Kelley rotating at DE) that alone has really helped our run D somewhat...2 straight games without allowing a 100 yard rusher shows signs of improvement, slowly our Run D is getting better, this of course is due to Romeo Not Grantham

We are more than capable of getting pressure on the QB, if we would bring it.

We need to mix them up, Bring corner Blitzes, Safety blitzes, etc along with the OLB at times

i have yet to see Grantham Send Andra Davis or Jackson up the gut on an ILB blitz..the delay ILB blitz can be very effective if we would just use it! pressure up the middle is a good thing

Also, we never seem to Stunt our DL...we need to stunt more often, especially on passing downs...don't just run straight ahead like we do, but stunt them left/right, etc sometimes, mix it up will go a long way in helping to cure what ails this pass rush

Wimbley and Peek both have pass rushing ability, but they ar enot being used properly..sometimes Wimbley or Jackson need to come blitzing more from the middle or so to, angles can go a long way here to.

overall on D....especailly on 1st downs "early" in the game ALA next week against Pitsburgh we should show "alot" of 5-2 and 6-2-3 fronts with jones in the box acting somewhat like a linebacker, this will strengthen our run front and allow us to pressure Big Ben. Tell Jones if it is not a run go after Ben...its pretty simple....or he picks up the tight end releasing, we will still have 6 guys coming, that should help get some pressure and not leave our corners out to dry, some pass will be complete, but not as many as with the rush 3 drop 8 stuff

overall, scheme is killing us worse than talent, even if we had more talent, 3 guys cna't get pressure when 5 guys are blocking them, its just common sense/law of averages are not in our favor in that match up

The Steelers get so much pressure because they send 6-7 guys after the QB..more blitzers than blockers will work 75% of the time, we could do the same

as for Run Defense, we could be close to as good as the Steelers if we would show more 8 man fronts and 6 man DL on 1st downs like they do, they have Polamalu in the box 70% of the game, we could do the same with Jones. Bob Sanders does it in Indy.,..why we are not doing it i have no idea...RAC did it with Rodney Harrison in New england

RAc needs to just take control of this D from Grantham, or draw up the Gameplans and tell GRantham what to call..his modified prevent is just killing us from every angle....this D could be atleast 15-18th in the league with the right defensive play calling and scheming

right now, the calling of Grantham doesn't give this D any chance of being successful...

Just clicking...

Blown gap assignments, period. The Browns DL is very undisciplined. Robaire Smith is bothering me.

I think another part of the problem is , a lot of the players on D are very passive..we need someone with some real flare and a real attitude, a LEADER on the defense...someone like Ray Lewis for Balt or Brian Urlacher for the Bears...we need someone who will motivate our defense to play at its potential, and right now we dont have it.

keep the team together, practice and come off the snap quickly.

I don't like the lack of blitzing or results from it, but they must be doing something right.



Go Defense!

I agree, we don't hide our intent well along the line.

We show who is blitzing way too soon and show when we aren't blitzing way too soon.

The intent of the 3-4 is to confuse the O as to who may or may not come........bottom line, we don't do that.

I would also move Wimbly around more from one side to the other....don't always have him rush off the right edge....it wouldn't hurt to line him up on the right....I don't buy the blind side deal as much as some.....pressure is pressure....a RH qb running left isn't a bad thing.

In short....our lack of pressure is probably 80% scheme because the Oline knows who is coming and it is usually still 5 O-linemen blocking 4 defenders.

After eight games , the LB. who is playing the best ( impact ) is " Old Man Wille " and thats with missing games ! The rest are also ran's... Kam has how many sacks at the halfway point ..

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Play a soft D-backfield not to give up big plays. This leaves underneath routes open and somebody to go to on a quick time pass game.

2. We apply no pressure up the middle...almost by design.

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When we lost Warren this became much more of a problem...no middle pressure. Warren had issues but he could push the middle. B.Davis did know how to build a defense but many of his picks were not reliable.

What do we have now after three years? Kelly, the Smiths, Roye, Peek, Wimbley and McMillian. No one stands out...Wimbley is a good combination LB/DE but he needs help. We will not be able to fix this next year in the draft but will have to find some FAs and draft picks.

We could use our LBs more effectively but we really need Connor or Larrienitis. We missed Carpenter and Hawk and Polusney and several others. maybe we can get a good FA the second time around.

We also played a 4-3 then. You don't get too much pressure up the middle unless you got a big strong fast NT in the 3-4 like Wilfolk and Hampton.

I'm telling you - the best pass rush I saw from a NT was Willie McG...lol

JMHO