DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Republicans continue the narrative that the election was fraudulent.

I'm not quite sure how he thinks this is "your flat tire" when it's actually over 70% of Republicans who believe the election was stolen due to mass voter fraud. But oh well.

I agree. I also think if all a person can say on the topic is that there was no mass voter fraud and constantly blame the other side, they are also a part of the problem. Trying to talk about that isn't avoiding talking about the problem or changing the subject. It's uncomfortable, but necessary to the healthy function of the republic.



Clear, yes. Simple, no. Refusing to look at all aspects of the problem contributes to the casting of doubt. Taking a reductionist view solely focused on the bad of the "Republicans" only entrenches those Republicans further.



The opposite is also true. The left claims to love America, but it comes out that they also HATE some Americans (or at least the "Republican" stereotype.) I think it was OCD that mentioned needing to "eradicate" people in another thread. That's some pretty messed up stuff.

The whole there are only two diametrically opposed sides approach is a gross mischaracterization of the actual situation. The sides aren't simple. The constant attempts to simplify is part of the problem. The repeated use of reductionist logic is how we continue to end up in places with two bad choices at the end.

None of this is factual from the standpoint of Republicans. Over 70% of Republicans believe there was mass voter fraud which changed our election results. They have no interest in looking at "all aspects" of the issue. None. Isolated cases of voter fraud have nothing to do with them being entrenched in anything.

They have no actual evidence of mass voter fraud and have believed it from the very beginning. They are the very people taking a reductionist view and using that view to try and change voter laws across the country based on that lie. The facts here are obvious. I won't get into the rest of your post but what you're trying to do is spread the blame around for something that has obviously been created by Trump and adopted by the vast majority of Trump voters.

It wasn't anything that the democrats said or did that created this situation. It's nothing they've done that perpetuated this situation.

I didn't realize there was a point. Your false equivalencies, straw men, and passive aggressiveness were cute.

If trying to get you to think is manipulation, I guess I'm manipulative. I'm not telling you what to think, just trying to get you to notice the blinders that you seem to be operating within.

It would appear that you are the one who is insistent on what other people should think. Or is it simply that you believe that people shouldn't think?

It's not that I have more important topics to address, it's that there are more productive aspects of this very important topic to address rather than simply blame and and its basic existence.

As far as your poll, what do you make of the 16% of Deomcrats that think "The Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol was led by violent left-wing protestors trying to make Trump look bad"? Scratch that. Let's not get distracted.

Where is your 70% coming from? mgh's article just showed 53%.

I've never said that the Republicans don't also have a reductionist view. They do. That's part of the problem. Unfortunately, Democrats also have a reductionist view. It is also a part of the problem. When talking to a Democrat, is it really that productive to talk about other peoples' problems? Talking about the Republicans' problems seems to be all some people in this thread want to do. Unfortunately, all the Republicans seem to want to do is talk about the Democrats' problems. Talking about other people's problems doesn't fix things. People need to clean their own houses. That's something they actually have some measure of control over.

Attacking the other side does entrench that side. All the sides seem to do is attack each other. Thus, both sides are in part responsible for our present predicament.

How do we get the conversation to how "our" side can get better instead of constantly focusing on how jacked up the other side is? The current combative nature of the relationship just seems to make both sides worse.

question, Bull:

when Trump's kraken team took L after L in the courts, when a partisan audit group with no experience in election integrity led by republican not only disproved any election fraud, but actually found that Biden got MORE votes that previously thought, when are you gonna give this up?

because by your own logic, the audit led by the Cyber Ninjas actually led to more voted for Biden, doesn't that mean the democrats have a waaaaaay better argument for auditing election votes than republicans?

what happens when texas start their audit and find biden had more votes than trump in a state he won? by your logic throughout this thread, that means the dems should start auditing every state that trump won, correct?

im sorry bro but you've been presenting yourself as a MAGA hatter who is in denial he's a MAGA hatter. do you believe that there was widespread election fraud in 2020? and if so, why hasn't anything be proven, despite a republican controlled court throughout the country?? why did they lose all of the court cases? why did one audit work in biden's favor, DESPITE the fact that it was republican led?

because the FACTS say the dems have a much bigger case to argue election fraud. are you actually worried about election fraud, or are you just upset trump lost?

and a reminder to the board: senators and house seats were voted for in the SAME ballot. why did trump lose, yet all the republicans won their seats, AND gained more in the house?

again, on the SAME ballot.

No we should all just be quiet about them undermining our election process, Jan.6th and everything else as they keep spreading the mass voter fraud lies to the point that events like January 6th happened. That would solve everything.

We shouldn't talk about the fact that both the Trump administrations DOJ and the Biden administrations DOJ agree that domestic terrorism is now the biggest terrorist threat to our nation and part of the very motivation behind it is that they believe the election was stolen.

70% of Republicans say election wasn't 'free and fair' despite no evidence of fraud – study

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/10/election-trust-polling-study-republicans

Quinnipiac Poll: 77% of Republicans believe there was widespread fraud in the presidential election; 60% overall consider Joe Biden’s victory legitimate

https://www.courant.com/politics/hc-pol-...yepe-story.html

When 70% or more of Republicans think Trump lost due to mass voter fraud, that is an "American problem" and Jan. 6th was proof of that. Sitting silently by isn't an answer. In case you missed January 6th, they're not looking for a Kumbaya moment.

I'd be curious as to what polls would say, now, as opposed to almost a year ago.

Almost a year ago? I can believe republicans thought/hoped they would find a problem.

Good point. This year that number has gone down to just over half. There's more information about the beliefs of Republicans at the link.

More Than Half Of Republicans Believe Voter Fraud Claims And Most Still Support Trump, Poll Finds

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurke...sh=4e1334c21b3f

Well before you accuse me, why not look it up and see exactly what I said... Can't remember, but it was more likely I said we need to eradicate Trumpism. BUT to be honest, the GQP are not people, they are sheep. mushrooms, and brain dead insurrectionists.

Interesting.

Feel free to provide examples of false equivalences and straw man arguments.

As for my recent posts and point - it continues to be that you say you knew the thread was about mass voter fraud but chose to use multiple posts to squabble about the omission of the word 'mass' and give the impression that you felt that this was an issue for you and justification for moving on to other issues where you are a solutions provider!!

I'm not sure how you got here from anything I said. I'm glad Trump lost. I'm a little annoyed that Biden was the other choice, but that doesn't change the fact that I wanted Trump to lose and definitely didn't vote for him.

Give up what? What exactly do you think I'm saying?

If Trump wants to make a fool of himself in public, I say let him. Make him look stupid in court/allow him to make himself look stupid over and over again. He can hardly do otherwise being what he is and the facts being what they are.

As you say, the audits are generally showing more votes for Biden. Why not keep finding that out?

Trump's supporters see this constant fighting to stop the trials/audits as evidence that there is something to hide. They seethe in the shadows. I say blast them with daylight and watch the roaches scatter.

Give them what they (allegedly) want. Let it blow up in their faces. I wonder if what they actually wanted was the response that they've gotten which is entrenching Trump's hardcore supporters.

The false equivalence is when you brought racism and all the distractions from it to this thread.

The straw man arguments are people constantly coming back to there was no mass voter fraud. No one said otherwise.

I now know the thread was about mass voter fraud. You said it 500 times. When I first posted, it was less clear as you omitted mass. I'm sorry that clarification is that distasteful for you.

I've never said I was providing solutions, just looking for solutions. Obviously, here with you isn't the place.

I tried looking it up, but it looks like it got edited/deleted. It might not have been you. If it wasn't, I apologize.

Just clearly remembered doing a doubletake when I read it. Though, your dehumanizing people right there is kind of one of the issues that I was trying to look at.

The ANALOGY on the way people deflect on discussions of racial inequalities is real and was very appropriate.

I said that the issue of lying about mass voter fraud and using it as a strategy is important. You were the one that kept trying to play semantics about voter fraud vs mass voter fraud.

You really lost the plot on this thread and throwing your "observations" around to insult people - and throwing out "straw man" and "false equivalence' as a deflection from your weak takes doesn't work.

It's real. You're the one constantly deflecting here, though.



I asked you to clarify early in the thread. Ever since you keep using the Straw man argument that people were claiming there was no mass voter fraud. No one in the discussion ever said that. Constantly trying to paint the picture that it's about semantics is another deflection.



Plots develop. You seem to be stuck in the exposition. Constantly acting aggrieved is another deflection. I'm not throwing observations around to insult. If you feel insulted, maybe you should consider changing the behavior. I've commented on the behavior, not you as a person. I guess some people have trouble separating those two things.

Have I been ungentle in some instances? Sure, but that happens when someone gets attacked as soon as they enter a thread. Especially when someone twists the argument to fit their agenda and then repeats it over and over again. This is the problem with current political discourse. People don't actually have discussions. They make bad assumptions and then fight to the death over something that no one was actually saying.

What weak take are you referring to? The antithesis of your straw man argument is your creation and it's only happening in your mind.

DELETE Tweet was old news.

I will say this.

There are internal measures to assure the accuracy of the tabulation. You do not have to hire an obviously bias independent organization to do something when there are existing measures to handle close races.

I think that it is a poor practice to demand a partial recount by an unqualified party where the target county is the opposition party.

Maricopa County in AZ, Dallas and Harris County in TX. This is not looking for accuracy, this is digging for dirt.

In Texas, there was no dispute about the winner, yet there is a recount directed by Trump and his minion Abbott.

I agree they might be digging for dirt but I think more-so it is for optics. I think it is to create the impression amongst a crowd of supporters who already believe the election was stolen that there is something that merits or warrants investigation. We've already seen the reaction to they cyber ninjas 'result' with accusations od a deep state cover up. This isn't a case of something happened - no point keep talking about it coz it's over and whatcha gonna do ... this strategy to perpetuate a lie is an ongoing policy by a large section of the Trump faithful. Latest polling still shows more than 53% of the polled republicans believe the election was stolen.

But how do you ensure that the "internal measures" aren't biased? Who watches the watchers? If there's nothing to hide, there will be nothing to find.

If you argument to that is that it could shake faith in the system, my rebuttal is that why should there be faith in a system that resulted in Trump?



Then why not suggest a qualified independent party? Political parties are notoriously bad at policing themselves.



This may be what Trump is doing, but Trump doesn't exist in a vacuum. Some people believe the process's accuracy is paramount. If there is no dirt, again, why the resistance?




I think more than the actual results of the "recounts" the reaction is what Trump is actually counting on. It appears to me that the left's reaction is actually helping him to radicalize his base.

Yes, Trump is a horrible human being and he says many stupid things. He's not without a certain amount of snake's cunning, though.

You seem to promote that we keep making false accusations based on zero evidence in order to keep spreading doubt almost forever. It will be almost a year after the election of 2020 before Texas even begins its "audit".

You do realize that the only reason any of this is being done is because Trump said if he lost the election the Democrats had to cheat, right? He said the same thing in 2016.

It's just like the old saying, "Heads I win, tails you lose". And some keep promoting people run around like their hair's on fire.

No, I'm saying, when there's a false accusation, you prove it wrong. You shine a spotlight on it. You don't say that it's false and that it shouldn't be looked into. Sadly, the US seems to operate more from Optics than facts. Unfortunately, as bad as the optics of the right are from the left's perspective, the optics of the left are just as bad from the right's perspective. Everyone seems to want to avoid looking at the actual facts. It appears that everyone would rather push reductionist narratives than allow actual discussion.

Americans politics is like watching a bunch of children prance around with their fingers in their ears chanting "I'm right and you're wrong, neiner, neiner, neiner!" all while feeling insufferably proud of themselves.

Your approach is what I see as the problem. Anyone can make up anything at any time with no basis in actual facts. Without any actual evidence.

Trying to suggest that you go around like a dog chasing its own tail in such a fashion makes no sense at all. That's why we are where we are now. Everything from the election to Covid is nothing more than a bunch of idiots screaming their heads off and people reacting by working their asses off to prove they're wrong.

When making accusations it's up to the accuser to provide the evidence. Not to the one being accused. You know, "innocent until proven guilty". In this case there is no probable cause to begin with.

Then on top of that, they do their biased audits and come up with nothing. Further proof that the Dems are covering something up because surely it is unfathomable that we didn't find any wrong doing.

I will just say that this is a Trump strategy to deflect on the fact that he lost. He can't accept the fact, so he blames it on massive voter fraud or corrupt officials.

It is not as though we have never had close elections before in our history. Although the rules vary from state to state, recounts are often triggered when the margin is less than 0.5 percent (1 in 200 votes). The difference has to be far less than 0.5 percent for the true victor to be questionable based on the accuracy of the tabulation.

The Arizona data is an example of where tabulation errors can come into play. If you look at the tabulation in Arizona there was an difference in about 1 voter for every 2500 (-261/995,665)votes cast for Trump. That is roughly a 0.04 percent difference. For Biden the recount tabulation roughly showed a difference of 1 vote in every 10,000 (+90/1,040,774).

I am not even discussing if the errors noted a result of Maricopa County or Cyber Ningas errors. Errors are errors.

Biden won By 10,817 votes in Arizona, and roughly 45,000 votes in Maricopa county, the source of the audit.

If there was a true tabulation accuracy question, the election would have to be a lot closer, for example greater than the 1/2500 discrepancy.

Now things like the election of 2000 in Florida are more relevant for a variety of reasons. But in this case the margin is roughly an order of magnitude larger than could be attributed to tabulation.

Azcentral article on draft report.

I pulled the numbers from the draft report. I do not believe they changed in the final report.

I'm not saying that you should chase your tail. I'm saying you should let Trump chase his tail. You should say," yes, silly orange man, you can kick and scream all you want and you're only going to prove that you're an even bigger loser than everyone thought." Instead of standing on your hill staring at Trump's feint and saying he can't look at the system and falling into the trap, you should hand him the rope to let him hang himself.

People seem so intent on standing on that hill in a narrow focused battle where there's really no need to fight, that they seem to miss the fact that the rest of the war for the "soul" of the democracy is continuing to be waged.

I'm not arguing against the "mission." I'm questioning the "tactics."

edit: Telling stubborn, bull-headed people that they can't do something only makes them more obstinate. I should know.

Here's the problem. As we can see over half of republicans still believe it and trump is still on the road at rallies saying it was stolen. He has no reason to prove it. At some point you have to say enough is enough. States are wasting tax payer dollars because the politicians that support him have everything to gain and nothing to lose by promoting the big lie. I'm sure you understand that him and his proponents M.O. is just keep repeating the same lie over and over again and his followers simply believe him.

We also saw what can happen as a result. It is a very dangerous and direct threat to our democratically held election process. This isn't the typical politicians lie.

I guess I missed it. Where are the current polls that show over half of republicans still believe the election was stolen?

I guess I need to read more.

You did miss it. It was posted in response to your question about a poll in another thread. You questioned my claim that it was over 70% because the poll I posted was from last year. I told you that was a good point and gave you a link to a poll that was conducted this year that said it was over half. But here it is again anyway. Along with other findings from the poll...

More Than Half Of Republicans Believe Voter Fraud Claims And Most Still Support Trump, Poll Finds

Topline

A majority of Republicans still believe the baseless claim that the presidential election was “stolen” from President Donald Trump and approximately half believe his spin on the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol building, a new Reuters/Ipsos poll found, showing Trump’s continued influence on the party and how the ex-president’s falsehoods about the election and its aftermath have taken hold among his supporters.



Half of Republicans believe the Jan. 6 siege was “largely a non-violent protest” or done by left-wing activists “trying to make Trump look bad,” the poll found.

Only three in 10 Republicans blame Trump for the attack.

Most respondents overall—59%—blame Trump for the attack, and 80% of Democrats and 60% of Independents do not believe the Jan. 6 events were nonviolent or staged by the left.



While 60% of Americans overall believe President Joe Biden fairly won the presidential election, 60% of Republicans instead believe Trump’s claims that Biden’s win was due to widespread voter fraud despite a lack of credible evidence.

Trump continues to have a strong hold on the GOP: 80% of Republicans have a positive view of the former president, and six in 10 believe he should run for president again in 2024.

The poll was conducted among 1,005 U.S. adults between March 30-31—days after Trump defended the Capitol rioters during a Fox News interview on March 25 and said they posed “zero threat” and “love our country.”
Crucial Quote

“Republicans have their own version of reality,” John Geer, a public opinion expert at Vanderbilt University, told Reuters. “It is a huge problem. Democracy requires accountability and accountability requires evidence.”

Chief Critic

The Republican National Committee said in a comment to Reuters the party condemns the violence on Jan. 6 and referred to a January statement by chairwoman Ronna McDaniel. “Those who partook in the assault on our nation’s Capitol and those who continue to threaten violence should be found, held accountable, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law,” McDaniel said.
Key Background

Trump and his allies have been pushing voter fraud claims since the election and tried to overturn the election results in court, and his efforts ultimately culminated in the Capitol attack on the day Congress approved the election results. There is a lack of credible evidence to back up the voter fraud claims and multiple court rulings and election audits have disproved the allegations, and Trump was impeached but not convicted for his role in the attack. The poll’s support for Trump comes as the GOP has been reckoning with the controversial former president: a number of Republicans have come out against the president and voted for his impeachment or conviction, including Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) and Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.), but have faced censures and other consequences from the party for doing so. The divide within the GOP has also sparked calls for factions to form their own third parties.
Contra

Republicans’ support for Trump’s voter fraud claims has actually gone down from when similar polls were conducted over the past few months. A February Quinnipiac University poll found 76% of Republicans believed the voter fraud claims, after a December poll from the same group found 77% support. A February poll from the R Street Institute showed 67% of Republicans believed the election was invalid.
What To Watch For

Trump’s voter fraud claims and the support for them on the right has led to a new push by GOP state lawmakers to impose new voting restrictions nationwide—a Brennan Center for Justice analysis found 361 such bills have been introduced in 47 states as of March 24—though Democrats in Congress are pushing a new voting rights bill, H.R. 1, that would nullify many of the restrictions if it passes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurke...sh=6a8700ec1b3f

I believe I was very polite in my question.

I am not one that believes the election was stolen. In november? Possibly.

Kinda like when Trump beat killary and the dems went ballistic.

I'm an actual realist, not biased by biased news sources. I follow stuff, of course.

Like, for example, I don't understand why people won't get vaccinated for covid. Not my job to understand that.

Unlike you, I am not an expert at or on, any and every topic.

I thought I was being respectful with my reply as well. I think maybe you're reading into some of my posts things that simply aren't intended. We have not gotten along in the past. I have been snarky in the past and quite sarcastic in my responses to you. I felt for good reason. But I'm actually trying to respond respectfully to you. Of course that isn't something I'm going to continue to do if you keep trying to twist every post I make to you.

Once again, enough with the "expert like you" BS. just because I read and look into things doesn't make me an expert. Some people actually want to know about things while some people just like to comment without knowing.

I never recall Democrats wanting to change voting laws, asking for audits in several states and so on. I'm quite sure if you take an objective look you can tell the stark difference. I also don't recall Hillary saying the election was stolen and going on a campaign tour almost a year after the election was over spreading such a lie.

If you have any evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.

Edit to add; Even in Novemeber there was no reason to believe that the election was stolen except for the fact Trump and his cronies said so.

Dude, you "read and look into" stuff that fits your opinion. That's fine,

https://news.yahoo.com/poll-two-thirds-o...-165934695.html

Latest poll as of Aug 2021. 66%

Cool. I'm not one of them.

And nobody said you were. I never s much as tried to insinuate you were one of the Republicans that believes the election was stolen. No, I look into things from all different angles. I haven't seen any polls from any right wing source that even attempts to dispel that over half of Republicans believe the election was stolen. Actually many right wing news sources are still promoting the idea that it happened. They are still interviewing guests that claim it happened.

It seems to me that we actually agree that it didn't happen so I'm not sure what the real issue is here. If you have anything where any right leaning news source is trying to show that the number of Republicans that believe the election was stolen is small I would love to see that.

Look, I can only speak for me. Is that clear to you?

And I'm saying half of the Republicans believe it still because of the left's flat out dismissal. Tell them they can't look into something and it just makes them more convinced something is being hidden. The more they think their concerns are not being heard, the more they are going to act out. It's like dealing with toddlers.

It's not the typical politician's lie because Trump isn't the typical (American) politician. He thrives on playing the anti-establishment heel. The problem with your approach to this "very dangerous and direct threat to our democratically held election process" is that dismissing them just makes them more angry and increases the danger.


...Plus, when has wasting tax payers' dollars ever actually been a concern for a politician?

it's pretty simple to me. Look at the videos of him spouting off that day and weeks prior. Trump riled up his base,, he lied, they believed.. so to me, it's clear and simple



Democrats don't hate all republicans,, just the ones that refuse to see what Trump has done to America.

What Trump did may be simple. Why he did it, I don't think so. He did it with his supporters in mind, but I also think he took the likely reaction of the other side into account. That reaction seems to be helping him with his supporters. He's really good at bringing out the worst in people, and not just his supporters. So while you are opposing Trump, many on the left are doing it in a way that it appears he can use to his advantage in further radicalizing his people and polarizing the country at large.

As far as the 2nd point, an awful lot of Democrats seem to lump everyone that doesn't agree with them on every single thing into that group.