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I think it's a combination of injuries to Baker and the o-line. You just can't go from how well we were playing on O to what it was today in 2 weeks. Something has to be amiss.

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Originally Posted By: EveDawg
I read he started wearing a brace on his left shoulder last week.


It needs to go.


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Originally Posted By: EveDawg
I read he started wearing a brace on his left shoulder last week.


He's been wearing the brace since he came back from injury in the Texans game.

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Let's Just Have A Baker Mayfield Conversation
By JAKE BURNS

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...33/#172375333_1


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Your Browns won. It was a great day celebrating a unique win. I enjoyed it. I podcasted with general glee. Yet, here I am. Back again writing about a win but on a negative thread inside the greater good. The defense should be the focus. They really should be. Over the last two weeks, they're putting together some of the franchise's best work in decades (I promise I will get to that this week), but the quarterback position always demands more. It always will. The nature of the beast, as they say. You truly go about as far as this position can carry you. So, when we get what we saw from Baker Mayfield on Sunday we at least need to talk about it.

The cliche "quarterbacks get too much of the credit and too much of the blame" will always hold true with me. Someone who values the nuance and process over the results frame of mind. However, this sport is not processed in a singular frame of reference. I view quarterback play differently than you do, and you do it perhaps differently than me. We all bring our personal biases and experiences to the table and then we form our opinion.

We all sat through Sunday's performance. We all left frustrated with the offense but relieved they found their way to 3-1 -- the Browns' best start since 2002. There's plenty to be happy about, but there is also fair reason to feel that concern you do deep in your stomach. The root of the issues brewing below is that Baker Mayfield has failed to be the version you started to grow comfortable with at the end of 2020. When he was one of the key reasons, from Week 7 on, that the offense found success en route to a playoff experience. We saw accuracy, anticipation, and confidence that pointed Mayfield into a potential future fit inside the league's best. This run of stellar play from Mayfield was rightfully well-documented.

Those covering the quarterback expected those same performances into the 2021 season where he would finally get the repeat he needed in the same system and with the same play-caller. However, we have seen Mayfield largely limp through four weeks. He had quality flashes that were reminiscent of the 2020 version through three quarters in Kansas City but he three in four fourth-quarter drives. The game's blame didn't belong to him, but there were throws needed that were missed. The second half in the Texans game left several big plays on the field we have documented here at The OBR, and last week we all witnessed the struggles with hitting some shot plays downfield that would have easied the offense's struggles for the larger portion of the game.

Look, he's been good enough to win ugly, but is that what Mayfield wants? Is that what the fan base is craving? Those questions sit front and center. I truly believe that Baker Mayfield is a good quarterback, but the question keeps coming back to just how good he can become. Yesterday was a step in the wrong direction, but it doesn't have to define his season.

WHAT WE CAN QUANITFY
Let’s just get it out of the way: Mayfield was terrible in Minnesota. It doesn’t define his career or even his season, but the performance is the performance. You can find whatever excuse suits you, but the metrics do not lie. The raw data will tell you his -18.3 CPOE (completion percentage over expectation) was the lowest for a Week 4 quarterback in the NFL barring a Monday Night Football clunker and his EPA was among the league’s worst as well but saved by not turning the ball over.

His film-based metrics from Pro Football Focus will end up sub-50 and it will mark one of his worst performances since 2020 in Pittsburgh and 2019 in San Francisco. He won’t want to remember it and neither will we.

These games happen, though. They just do. If you look hard enough, you can find these types of games for the league's best over the last 20 years. For context, we looked even closer to their early careers as best as possible to find a similar level of league exposure.

Aaron Rodgers: Year 4 of starting...on 12/18/11 versus the KC Chiefs. 17-35, 1 TD, and 80.1 passer rating. Chiefs were 5-8 coming into the game, while Packers were 15-0. Rodgers was a 1st team All-pro that season and led the league in passer rating (122.5) and approximate value (23) (both were the highest marks of his career).

Philip Rivers: Year 3 of starting...on 11/16/08 versus the Steelers. 15-26, with zero touchdowns, two interceptions, and a 44.4 passer rating. Lost the game 11-10. Even with that, Rivers threw the most TDs of his career in 2008 (34) and led the league in passer rating (105.5).

Drew Brees: Back in 2003, in his San Diego Charger days, he had a 7-15 performance for 49 yards and an interception with a 26.8 rating. Then also in 2005, he had a 22-44 for 215 yards, and three interceptions performance where he had a 35.7 passer rating.

Peyton Manning: In 2001 he had a 19 for 32 performance for 173 yards where he threw three interceptions and ended with a 35.0 rating in a 41-6 loss in Miami.

Again, you can dig and find these games for almost all quarterbacks not named Mahomes. Mayfield has had a select few like them but this one was different in a sense. He struggled pushing the ball downfield with accuracy, and that is rare for him since getting into the NFL. The decision-making and processing can deviate but generally he has been an accurate quarterback in the league when driving it to the deeper portions of the field. Sunday was different in that realm.



I turned to our own Cody Suek for some research and context on this one. On throws 20+ yards downfield Mayfield has been largely good. In 2018 he had 11 touchdowns and only four interceptions. In 2019 he struggled most of the year with seven touchdowns and seven interceptions, but then bounced back in 2020 with six touchdowns to just three interceptions.

He was top-3 in adjusted completion percentage on throws 20+ yards downfield in both 2018 (51.4%) and 2020 (51.8%). He was 12th in total EPA (expected points added) on those throws in 2018 (29.38) and 7th in total EPA in 2020 (28.95).

So, the game was a career worst type of dud for Mayfield in both the film and data side, but the issues are not isolated to just Week 4. This week just exasperated them.

The bigger perplexity at play here is the streaky play inside those numbers career efforts. He will have those stretches of poor play, and then those stretches of scorching play as well. The question for the Browns is how well they can stomach those stretches when they turn south for Mayfield.

The beginning of 2021 has been the perfect microcosm of Mayfield’s career. He lit the Chiefs for three quarters before the turn. He played a solid first half against the Texans before the turn and now we’re in the midst of an infamous Mayfield cold streak. A streak like we saw at the start of 2020.

In order to fully contextualize we should show evidence from yesterday’s game but some more of 2021 in whole to prove the point on the concerns inside this cold streak.

Let’s check the tape, folks.

WHAT OUR EYES TELL US
Mayfield has rarely been the guy to consistently provide those insane throws outside of structure, or those with supreme anticipation. He has made his money with Stefanski by throwing to opened schemed routes and, for the most part, that’s just fine. Kevin Stefanski is so gifted as a play-caller and scheme creator that combined with Mayfield’s arm talent and general accuracy, the two have formed a nice Ying to the Chubb/Hunt Yang.

When Stefanski is dealing as a play-caller (let me tell you he was really scheming yesterday) and Mayfield is processing the field well with a hot hand for accuracy, they’re brutal to stop. We’ve seen evidence of this in 2020 and the early portions of the game in Week 1.




But when Mayfield is missing those schemed throws you start to get concerned and the offense becomes stagnant. It was missing simple reads like the second half against the Texans here where he ignores the easy throw to Donovan Peoples-Jones for a touchdown off the fake.

Or finding the right throw, but just missing. It happened twice last week against the Bears in key third-down moments. First, missing Demetric Felton on a wheel route out of the backfield on the opening drive, and then missing a boot play-action throw to Harrison Bryant on an over route in the fourth quarter.



Sunday had a mixture of it all. From the processing issues to the inaccuracy, Mayfield clearly didn't have it in this one.

He failed to process Donovan People-Jones on the square in here for an easy completion.


Off play-action, he passes up an open curl from Odell Beckham Jr. for Harrison Bryant in the flat despite zero pressure.


He missed a holeshot to Beckham up the left sideline (bottom of your screen) on this straight drop concept.


This is the one that stands out most from a "he failed to see it" perspective. Off the roll fake, he has Demetric Felton in the flat for several seconds while lingering the eyes downfield on a 3rd and 2. He has Felton all the way up until the moment he decides to take a sack.


Then there were the misses. We can rattle these off, but I think it's fair we just list them here and let you decipher for yourself. Suffice to say, Beckham should have had a 200-yard performance.






It is a genuinely tough watch. These are not the types of throws Mayfield misses in this volume. This game has the potential to be a one-off for this degree of struggle but you can obviously get a feel for the reasons for concern to this point.

The 3-1 results are lovely for the Browns. Could easily be 4-0 with the right turnover luck, but the offense is a problem and its main crux is Baker Mayfield currently.



WHERE WE GO FROM HERE
So, for this type of game, you wad it up and throw it in the trash. There's not much else you can do. Can't go back and fix it. Can't have a redo. All Mayfield can do is learn from it and do his best to move on. To be better moving forward. We have data of him rebounding from similar times like this in his career. However, that doesn't change the issue right now, and the Browns must do all they can to fix that issue.

In 2020, the turnaround for Mayfield from Week 7 on with extensive work by offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt and Stefanski ended up paying dividends in team-based achievements and post-season recognition. They will be tasked with doing this again. If the young quarterback is truly hurt, then there needs to be a recognition of that and allow him some time to heal. If he is missing throws due to the sling on his non-throwing shoulder, again, rectify it. He isn't playing like a player whose shoulder is noticeably bothering him, but there could be something there. The potential contract extension could be a lingering distraction, the pressure to be perfect, who knows. It just has to be fixed.

We can pretend Mayfield has been playing well this year when outside of three quarters in Kansas City he has been largely average while leaving plays on the field. If that is your expectation for him, then fine. He can be that. But the hope here is the Mayfield is more than that. That he can lift them beyond their current levels.

For now, we just know Mayfield has to be better and so does Mayfield. He keeps saying as much. It is all there in front of him. His complete story for 2021 has obviously yet to be written, but the delay can't happen much longer. Not with what's coming on the schedule for the next four weeks.

The elephant in the room I really don’t want to wade too deeply into is the murky waters of whether Mayfield is better without Beckham. However you want to view it, and the data is not kind. According to Pro Football Focus, Mayfield's career passing grades with Beckham is 68.7 and without Beckham, it is 90.7.

There is no debate that things have to change soon as we peek into the future. It’s brutal to accurately quantify the issue and it ends up feeling like blaming the wrong person too often when the intentions center on football benevolence from both sides. However, the film data tells us that there’s a story to two Mayfield’s here, and the Browns have to find Mayfield's Dr. Jekyll and remove this version of Mr. Hyde with Beckham. The pair have it in them, I know they do.


The two players are immensely talented. It was excruciating to watch Mayfield trying so hard to make it work with Beckham yesterday only keep missing him on opportunity after opportunity. It’s affecting both of them to the point of body language crisis. Mayfield is wearing the stress of it on his entire being. Physically and mentally.

While the efforts yesterday are tough to watch in retrospect, like some early efforts in 2020, Mayfield still has every chance to right this ship and turn the season into something memorable. Not one thing was defined yesterday and he is still behind the controls of fixing this thing. It will take a collective effort from everyone involved in the offense, and Mayfield will have to rise up again. The final story of this season is likely written in whether that happens for Mayfield and the Browns or not.

''''''''''''''''


Lots of videos in the link.


You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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My biggest concerns with Baker yesterday, besides his missed throws, was his vision. You can definitely tell something is in his head about getting the ball out, or just taking off down the field. Almost some sort of panic.

That missed read of Felton sitting all alone on the sideline was killer. He also had Hunt wide open on another first down play later in the game. He wasn't seeing things.

I was really frustrated and angry watching the game. I do feel like a lot of the fan reaction on Twitter went overboard, much like it did with our defense after week 2, but this is a problem that needs corrected, whether it's through resting, retooling the offense, or whatever. It's beginning a trend and it's something that needs to be addressed. I have faith that Stefanski will address that.

Also, Kevin, kick the flipping field goals.


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Originally Posted By: dawglover05
My biggest concerns with Baker yesterday, besides his missed throws, was his vision. You can definitely tell something is in his head about getting the ball out, or just taking off down the field. Almost some sort of panic.

That missed read of Felton sitting all alone on the sideline was killer. He also had Hunt wide open on another first down play later in the game. He wasn't seeing things.

I was really frustrated and angry watching the game. I do feel like a lot of the fan reaction on Twitter went overboard, much like it did with our defense after week 2, but this is a problem that needs corrected, whether it's through resting, retooling the offense, or whatever. It's beginning a trend and it's something that needs to be addressed. I have faith that Stefanski will address that.

Also, Kevin, kick the flipping field goals.


Agreed.

Some people like to throw out the "Baker is a gunslinger" mantra. I don't really see that UNTIL he doesn't take the plays like the ones you mentioned. Not the/a "gunslinger" who wants to rip the ball downfield with frequency...but the/a "gunslinger" who will pass up on the easy play looking for the bigger play. That is actually my only criticism of Baker's (uninjured) play...and that has applied for his entire career. He will learn.

Not kicking the filed goal after the long, first-possession series was incredibly stupid. You can't come away with that "response" drive with zero points.

I also had issues with the empty backfield sets that we ran all too often. The OLine is dinged up...Baker's left shoulder has a harness on it...we have two all-Pro RBs on the team and a Felton. I don't see why we would EVER have an empty backfield set.

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So far I've re-watched the first half of the Viking win. I'm putting these comments here because they are about Baker and something I noticed on our last possession of the first half. If you re-watch it, look for this soon after the Hunt rumble:

Baker throws a short out to his left to Higgins for a 1st down(?). That's a throw he makes in his sleep. He gets the completion, but the throw is high. Re-watch it a couple times and focus on Baker's hips and up. His feet look ok...he's loading up for the torque like he does when he's able and on...and then there is a hitch right before the right arm comes forward. The lower body momentum almost stops completely and he's throwing "all arm".

The next throw is in the endzone to OBJ. Way too high. I didn't notice the same hitch I did above, but the ball looks funky coming out of his hand...like Lamar threw the darn thing. He doesn't get his "rear" into the throw and "arms" it downfield.

Next throw is to the left again. Way over Hooper's head...all arm throw again.

Last throw before the FG kick is a longer throw to the left to Higgins...he "arms" it again and the throw is late and too wide (thank goodness).

I didn't really "watch" other throws in the first half like I did that last possession, but when he's in a spot to let it rip he's still ok...even if all arm. But, when he needs some "rear end" on his throws AND some touch...he's got problems...which is very un-Baker-like.

I don't think his "mechanics" are messed up...I don't think his mechanics get anymore goofy under pressure than they do for other really-good+ QBs...I think that shoulder harness and/or the pain is causing a hitch and he's throwing with "all arm" at times and has no idea how to adjust the throw for the needed 'touch' on the pass.

I may be completely wrong about what I saw and why...but I know I saw it.

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Maybe some sort of ribs or back issue with that shoulder??


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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
Maybe some sort of ribs or back issue with that shoulder??


Could be...maybe the harness restricts the torso from torquing? Maybe there is some pain? Maybe it's in his head? I dunno.

I just know that that lead shoulder does quite a bit for the balance and follow-thru...restrict that shoulder and things get wonky very quickly.

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I think there is something going on with his Footwork. I think he may be throwing off balance or off his wrong foot a little bit.


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It's depressing watching the Monday night crew drool all over Justin Herbert.

Meanwhile, our 4th year QB is melting down before our eyes.

Baker is average. It is what it is. He's not good enough to win you a game but he's going to have enough good games to keep you competitive as long as the rest of the team is good.

After 20+ years of craptastic football that's not a bad place to be. But disappointing considering the guy was a number one overall pick.

It will be very interesting to see what Berry does.

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Yeah boy .... I sure wish we had Brady Quinn ..... or Charlie Fry ...... or Tim Couch ......


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I don't.

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I feel like, despite all your denials, you dislike Baker, in a huge way.


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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
It's depressing watching the Monday night crew drool all over Justin Herbert.

Meanwhile, our 4th year QB is melting down before our eyes.

Baker is average. It is what it is. He's not good enough to win you a game but he's going to have enough good games to keep you competitive as long as the rest of the team is good.

After 20+ years of craptastic football that's not a bad place to be. But disappointing considering the guy was a number one overall pick.

It will be very interesting to see what Berry does.



He's going to ship OBJ before Baker, bank on that. Funny how Baker "is melting down" ONLY in games with OBJ... Hopefully what happens is they figure it out and fix it and we keep both STARS.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 10/04/21 08:32 PM.

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I like Baker. I dislike bad quarterback play.

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I don't want to believe they can't play together but maybe you're right.

Odell should have had 200 yds and at least 2 tds on Sunday. He had 27 yds.

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Go back and watch Baker on the plays Odell is in. I swear I saw him looking for OBJ to make a break and get open a couple times while missing wide open guys all over the field. That doesn't happen unless he's feeling pressure to get OBJ the ball. That pressure is coming from somewhere if I'm right. Go look and let me know what you think.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 10/04/21 08:47 PM.

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35 paragraphps basically in one rant.
I didn't read any of it. (some article)

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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Go back and watch Baker on the plays Odell is in. I swear I saw him looking for OBJ to make a break and get open a couple times while missing wide open guys all over the field. That doesn't happen unless he's feeling pressure to get OBJ the ball. That pressure is coming from somewhere if I'm right. Go look and let me know what you think.


OBJ was basically open all of the time.

Baker is just a bit off.

He will get it fixed


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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
I feel like, despite all your denials, you dislike Baker, in a huge way.

I feel like it's more just trying to needle posters and create contrived controversy. I mean how many times is it necessary to repeat your opinion that Baker is average and pronounce judgement on the guy ? I mean critique all you want, and he did have an absolute stinker vs the Vikings. . . But when the same poster is saying the same thing after two games and BM competition rate was over 80% ??? Whatever .... Then tonight Herbert looks great but missed a wide wide wide open Mike Williams on a throw the same poster claims "no professional QB should miss" or whatever the claim was.


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Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
I think there is something going on with his Footwork. I think he may be throwing off balance or off his wrong foot a little bit.


The one play that really stuck out was the one where had had Felton basically right in front of him for a free 1st down and instead just... got tackled.


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I don't know for sure, but it is possible that OBJ and/or Schwartz are not where they are supposed to be, when they are supposed to be there? Schwartz did miss most of training camp, and OBJ missed it all. (except for individual drills) Maybe miscommunication. Maybe Baker was throwing a back shoulder to OBJ on the play where OBJ was wide open? Who knows?


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Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
Yeah boy .... I sure wish we had Brady Quinn ..... or Charlie Fry ...... or Tim Couch ......


Don't worry about Rish. He has been down on Baker since before we drafted the guy, which is fine. We all have our own opinions.

You can just expect to hear him pipe up when Baker has a bad game....and I agree Baker had a bad game, so it is what it is and the Rish will speak.

It's been a while since baker had a bad game, so Rish has a lot of pent-up tongue lashing to release.


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I've seen a lot of Browns football and this is the best Browns team I have seen since 1964. Best FO, best coaching staff, and best players. So Baker stunk it up on Sunday and I have no doubt that the organization will support him and the coaches and players will get to work and correct those problems. He will perform as we have become accustomed to seeing from him.

Just a couple of weeks ago Dawg Talkers and the fanbase at large were overreacting to the sluggish defense and that unit has responded. Stefanski, Baker, and the offense will figure it out.

Do not lose sight of the fact that this team has shown it can win even when the QB under performs. When was the last time that was true?


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Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
I don't know for sure, but it is possible that OBJ and/or Schwartz are not where they are supposed to be, when they are supposed to be there? Schwartz did miss most of training camp, and OBJ missed it all. (except for individual drills) Maybe miscommunication. Maybe Baker was throwing a back shoulder to OBJ on the play where OBJ was wide open? Who knows?


it's always possible, but given that Baker was so completely off on every pass, it makes it seem more likely that the issue was on Baker


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I like that you referred to me as The Rish.

I am critical of Baker because my expectations are high for him. I expect a lot out of a number one overall pick and the guy we all want to be the guy for the next 10-15 years. What we saw on Sunday was very deflating if those are the expectations.

We are 4 games in, Baker has 2 td passes, and we are the only team in the league without a td pass to a WR. That is mind boggling to me.

I'll take 3-1. I just don't think it is sustainable with that kind of QB play and that is what is most concerning to me.

If I point it out a lot it's because that's what I am the most passionate about. We've been watching the NFL for a long time. We all know it's extremely tough to win it all without good QB play. I'd rather have great game changing QB play and top 10 to 15 defense than bad QB play and a top 3 defense. I think you have a better chance with the former than the latter.

We all want the same thing ...to win it all. I just subscribe to the notion that it is very unlikely to do so without a great QB.

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You have high expectations, but you also say he's average and not good enough to win you a game.

You'll have to explain that one to me.


I live in Cinci these days, so I get to hear a LOT of Baker hate. Most of it has to do with OSU honks still crying into their sheets about Baker beating OSU and planting the flag.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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That is a legitimate question. I can't reconciled those opposing points of view either.


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RISH is wrong that Baker can't win you a game. The problem is that you never know if/when THAT version of Baker will show up, if you'll just be getting above avg. Baker, or garbage Baker. Consistency is a big deal, and so far, he has none.

I don't see how anyone can blame (or even mention) Odell regarding Sunday's game. That was 100% on Baker, and he was missing EVERYONE.

I will note 1 positive: even a single bad TO in that game, and we likely lose. So there's that. Someone said his throws were SO far off that even DBs didn't have a shot. LOL

Oh well, on to next week. Really tough opponents in the next 2 games where the passing game will have to be working...we need to win 1 of them. At some point this season, though, if Baker is still looking like this?...as much as we all love his toughness, joy of playing the game, and flashes of elite play, we might well have to take the wait-and-see/franchise route with his contract.


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I agree, and I think that's something that bothers me when I see people (in the media and fans of other teams) refer to Mayfield as a "game manager." He is not a game manager. Andy Dalton is a game manager. You know what you're going to get with them every game, and it won't be spectacular, but it won't be bad either.

With Baker, you could get what you had with the Vikings, and you could get what you had in the second half of the Bengals game last year, and anything in between. He can play like Mahomes or he can play like Charlie Frye.

His arrow was consistently trending upward during the second half of last year, which was a positive. He has regressed over the past couple games and I'm hoping that it's a fluke or injury related. I'm hoping and thinking that he will return to trending back upward, but we still have recent data points that he's struggling.

In either event, he is not a game manager.


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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
You have high expectations, but you also say he's average and not good enough to win you a game.

You'll have to explain that one to me.


I live in Cinci these days, so I get to hear a LOT of Baker hate. Most of it has to do with OSU honks still crying into their sheets about Baker beating OSU and planting the flag.


There is no QB that has ever played the game that can meet Rishuz's expectations.


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Here's what happens. If Baker has a really good game he will dissect it to find any flaw. No matter how good the performance to minimize what Baker did in that game. If Baker has a bad game, he posts incessantly about Bakers poor performance. I honestly do not believe that anything Baker could do would satisfy him because he always picks every detail apart no matter what Baker does. It's like my uncle Dan Rosanna Danna says.....



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That's if he shows up at all after a good Baker game. I don't recall any input from him when Baker was out on his own island on those efficiency charts.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Agree on that DAWGLOVER. He can be that in many games, but he can be more (and less). On the pure football side of things, I'm good rolling with him, and hoping that he hits a hot streak at the right time. But I definitely don't have the same faith others around here have. Baker's hot streak could come early instead, and then he could have a game like this, or a 2 pick, 2 funmble game in the playoffs.


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I seem to recall even after the two starts and 80% completion - I saw comments about how average Baker was. So yes - even after the good performances there is nitpicking and BS. Herbert looked good last night - just like Baker has done in many games. But Herbert threw some very inaccurate balls too. The miss to a wide open Mike Williams where there wasn't anyone within 10+ yards of Mike was very reminiscent of Baker's multiple misses on Sunday .... it was a throw that was labelled as "no professional QB should ever throw" for Baker but only praise and drool for Herbert.


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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
RISH is wrong


THE Rish...

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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
That's if he shows up at all after a good Baker game. I don't recall any input from him when Baker was out on his own island on those efficiency charts.


This thread is insanity.

We are celebrating efficiency charts when he threw a pick on a game winning drive of one of those "efficiency" games.

Oy vey.

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You go ahead and cherry-pick on the things that prove your point and I'll do the same, thank you.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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And if Chubb hadn't fumbled, and if Gillan didn't mess up, no game winning drive needed, right? it's a TEAM sport.


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