DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Covid... still... p7

To break that down even further, you'd have to determine what "international travel" is. If you drove - or took a train - from Portland, Maine to San Diego, you are not traveling internationally. If you traveled that same distance in Europe, I don't even know how many countries that would constitute.

I think that 30-40% is saying something we kinda already know.... was it 29%? Was it 41%? Kinda irrelevant... it was significant. I won't haggle over a % when the overall point is something we already know.

What's more interesting to me is the little line they tucked in at the end there. Her new opinion conflicts with what she was telling other officials when it was all going down. She was the COVID response coordinator... not sure if that means she has the medical knowledge to be setting policy or is just a mouthpiece/organizer person.

From reading about her background, I certainly think she is well qualified from a medical and immunology perspective to do the job she was assigned to do. However, I don't see anything in her background that qualifies her to be a statistical expert.

Deborah L. Birx, M.D.

https://2009-2017.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/224406.htm

As with what seems to be the most popular response, I think we know there were many unneeded deaths because of the message that was sent by Trump on the virus. Determining an exact number or percentage is subjective.

1. we are one of the least healthy countries in the world. That alone would be a place to start vs an election year

2. anyone in big data/statistics would tell you there are too many variables to link anything like the statement that person made without having a political agenda.


Data is data until it is influenced by opinions.

Had my booster vaccine on Friday. Unlike my 1st two shots with no side effects, this time the side effects kicked in while trying to sleep Friday night. Fever, chills, aches, and pains. Feeling better already this morning.

It was the same with me a few weeks ago. That is why I had no reservations about driving off for Cleveland the morning after to go to the game, After about 5 or so hours of driving I told my wife we had to find a hotel because I wasn't feeling good at all. Same deal as you.

Glad you are feeling better today.

Got my booster on the 12th, arm was sore and felt run down but I got my flu shot at the same time. So, I can't be sure it was the covid vaccine that made me sore.

I was almost the opposite. Got my 1st two on a Friday around 9 am. Did fine that day, woke up at my typical 6 am moved to the sofa and turned on the TV. Next thing I new it was noon and I got up and ate lunch. Had it been a work day there's no way I could have functioned. Luckily no fever.

With my booster, nothing. I think I got placebo

Burns my ass that two days after I got the Pfizer booster they announce that you get a much better immunity if you go with a brand other than your original for the booster.

HEY they were supposed to announce that the day after your booster, not two days la
ter.

Got news last night that my cousin's husband of 45 years died Saturday. Unvaccinated, caught covid, spent three weeks in the hospital, a week on a ventilator, but survived to get sent home. Week to the day later, rushed to the hospital and dead in hours from a blood clot moving to his lungs. I can't say 100% it was covid, but just over a month ago he was in great health and had no long-term illnesses associated with age, none. Clot killed him but I think the clot could have been linked to the severity of his covid and or the hospital stay. Problem with clots is that you usually never know what triggered them.

Got new over the weekend that a guy I went to high school with recently died of COVID. He was two years behind me, in my little sister’s graduating class. Unvaccinated. Dead at 47.

All the needless deaths just suck. That part of my family is all Trumpian. Unfortunately, my cousin's husband killed himself by his own actions. He may have died anyway, but with his health and the condition he was in, he probably died 20 years before his time. I think it's disgusting that anyone would die over Trump's politics. What a waste. Sad.

Well you have to admire their commitment?

Umm... not so much. When being committed makes you act the way MAGATS do, you need another type of committed. Sister-in-law and I may very well never speak again. She despises me for hating on Trump. She's gone full on bigot and pwn the libs Trumpian. Nuts. And sadly, she was never really hateful or bigoted before Trump and Fox got their claws into her. Oh, she rocks the Q shirts too... moron.

When they are willing to do what it takes to keep the public they are supposed to "protect and serve" from catching a deadly virus that has killed 750k Americans this far, get back to me. The vast majority of them are. As per usual you post some stupid meme that holds zero value.

Same is happening in my family. It's gut-wrenching. I don't want to get together with them in person because my daughter is immuno-compromised. They've scared my 80 year old mom with a heart condition into not getting the vaccine (her PCP encouraged her to do it as well, so it's not just me). I tried to talk her out of it, but she's pretty engrained and has been myopic from the get-go (she was raised 3 houses down from where we were all raised). The death of my father back in 2014 made her even more susceptible to all the blind rhetoric. She has all the makings of someone who wouldn't make it through it if she gets it. Hope it doesn't happen, but that's all I can really do at this point.

So you are just fine if you need an Ambulance, Cop, Firefighters or a Nurse but they can't help you because they are understaffed?

Ok.

BUT YOU GUYS ARE BURYING THE LEAD IN ALL THESE HATE POSTS; NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE IF GOPERS WOULD JUST DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE COUNTRY AND GET VACCINATED. But any sense of duty to country or community has clearly been abandoned on the right.

Once again the Left refuses to consider Natural Immunity.

If the vaccines work so well, why are you guys fearful of the unvaxed? Catching Covid won't kill you will it?

Or are you guys saying the vaccines don't work?

There is ZERO reason to consider natural immunity since we have a super effective vaccine to SAVE LIVES. I'm out here losing family members over the dumbass crap you are arguing 40, it's not a joke man, it's killing people. The "being fearful of the unvaccinated" as you call it, is common sense kicking in for people who do not want to be needlessly exposed to a viral super killer that has taken 700,000 American lives to date. Even with the vaccine you can still get a mild case of covid and avoid dying, but who the hell knows what all the long-term effects will be? Intelligent people don't want to suffer lifelong debilitating side effects from contracting even a mild case if avoidable, it's not rocket science, 40.

So just so your mind can wrap around it; the vaccines work, you should look at the facts on how they work and protect you and there are many reason for the vaccinated to be fearful of the unvaccinated but the biggest are protecting themselves and loved ones while NOT getting unnecessarily sick with something that can still have horrible long term effects on health even when it's mild. And all political BS aside 40, you can ask around or even go back and look, but while you were gone so long after the election, I repeatedly asked if anyone knew what was up with you because I thought you might have been really sick or even passed form covid. I'm glad you are safe, and urge you to help keep others safe.

Going through school, the military, and now getting older with health issues; I've had MANY vaccines in my life AND none have killed me or had long term affects that have ever manifested. Hell, you can get cancer or worse from crap in the air and water supplies in this country, and your side is against one of the best methods we have to deal with this virus because you are afraid it might what? Cause stupidity? It apparently has already done that and it didn't require a jab.

I'm not on the left, but can I ask why you won't get the vaccine?

Edit ~ this is also not a political thing, and I don't really understand at all why/how it became one. There are plenty of people on the right - many on this board - who opted for vaccination over natural immunity. It's not a "left" thing to disregard natural immunity. It's common sense to try and combat the lethality of a virus through an FDA-approved vaccine.

You risk the deaths of Americans on our first responders not being vaccinated and I'll take that risk on a slower response time. Unless a cop just happens to be where something happens, when it happens, they aren't going to help do anything but write a report and try to catch the bad guy anyway. So if they show up a little later to do that it really doesn't make any difference. That's why I'm fully prepared to protect myself. The fire department where I live is less than ten minutes from my home and there is a fire hydrant in my front yard. The hospital is less than ten minutes from my home so I can get to the hospital before an ambulance could arrive.

You choose your risks and I'll choose mine.

Why do you keep pretending that you don't understand that there's millions of Americans who are immunocompromised? Do you seriously not understand this?

If your Mom is unvaxed and gets Covid, the hospital should offer Monoclonal Antibody treatment.

If they don't, you should ask about it.

Why doesn't everyone get the vaccine?

-Many are young and the young are invincible.
-Many have been exposed, caught it and survived.
-Blacks have a history of not trusting the government. (Tuskegee Airmen incident)
-People don't trust the vax because they have not been tested for long term effects. (See thalidomide)
-People reject the government Mandate as an attack on our freedoms. (Didn't the Left coin the phrase, "My Body, My Choice!")
-People are like a spring, the harder you push down on them, the harder they push back. Subjugation don't fly with many.

There are so many reasons for people to reject the vax, I can't list them all.

Not true... at least not in the rest of the world. In the US we are pushing a narrative that holds NO water with any studies done on the rest of the planet.

Dutch study with 26,000 healthcare workers? Sweep the results under the rug. Numerous studies overseas have shown that antibodies continue to evolve and be much more effective at fighting variants -- even after a year. Hell, there is even proof out there that original SARS infected have a very strong immune response to cousin Covid, 18 years later.

Newest Israeli study? 32,000 people shows 13-fold increased risk of infection among vaccinated individuals compared to previously infected.

So how does our CDC quiet all of this "chatter" and get people back in line? With a much smaller study... and a few key caveats.
* Only study people who have been vaccinated within six months.
* Only compare them with previously infected who were hospitalized from the illness.

Seems like a fair way to compare the long-term effects of natural immunity, right?

Right?

I'd seriously like anyone to keep a straight face and say they believe that is a "fair study".

You know what's funny? (Not really) Any references to these *other* studies seem to be very hard to find on the web... but the CDC story promising vaccination is 5.49 times more effective is splattered in headlines everywhere for the last two weeks. Much the same way all of the charts and graphs have disappeared from all the search engines now that the numbers are plummeting. Plummeting everywhere, at about the same rate... even in countries where vaccination is well under 20%. Doesn't fit the narrative.

So, apparently Covid pierces the vaccination wall at a much higher rate than natural immunity... everywhere in the world except the U.S.?

And that pretty much sums things up. Covid has gone from pandemic to narrative.

j/c

I'm a supposed Trumpian, and GOP'er. Fairly certain 2 januaries ago, before covid was 'covid', I had it. Based only on my symptoms at the time. Lasted about 2 1/2 to 3 weeks. Got it from my daughter, pretty certain. I was exhausted - as in, go to bed at 8:30 pm, wake up at 7 am, and wondered how I could get out of bed.

Night sweats, sore throat. Don't know about fever. Cough. I, and my wife, got vaxxed just before easter. When it was 'allowed' for people our age. Son, and daughter, also got vaxxed, due to their jobs and or school requirements.

So, when people say "gop'ers are prolonging this", I wonder who they mean?

You are 100% correct that there are people who for one REAL reason or another cannot get the vaccine. And that is all the more reason for those who can to do it. But that's too logical for some folks.

This is all great information, and it could easily lead to a time when we can stop pushing the vaccines. A time when people aren't dying needlessly of covid over political differences would be the time to consider all of this, do more research and verify these studies under peer review... but getting the shot into everyone that can be vaccinated in our country should be high priority for every patriotic adult American, period. Stop the needless deaths, learn more with study, devise a plan going forward... but that's too hard for half the country. And I'll believe the pandemic to narrative bit when my friends and family quit dying from it.

we have lost 3 friends/family members to covid who were vaccinated. We have lost 1 who was unvaccinated. All but 4 people that we know have had Covid and only 6 went to the doctors.

you can still spread covid if you have the jab
you can still get covid if you have had the job
Natural immunity does work
No one knows the long term effects of covid


47 million infections is grossly understated. We know at least 50-75 people who had it that never went to the doctors.

What you named are reasons, which is fine, but let's go through the rationale.

"Many are young and the young are invincible." It is true that young people have much better survivability rates. That, however, is not a reason in and of itself that they should not get the vaccine. The children's vaccine is still projected to reduce hospitalization and death. See the article below (that has no mention of politics):

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ccine-kids-children-approved/6233927001/

"Many have been exposed, caught it and survived." Again, not a reason to not get the vaccine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/11/01/what-works-better-vaccines-or-natural-immunity/

"Blacks have a history of not trusting the government (Tuskegee Airmen incident)" It...it...wasn't the Tuskegee Airmen. That's a bad look, dude.

To the point, though, I am not African American, but a large portion of the clientele my wife works with are. She does repeatedly get told of the mistrust those clientele have with the medical community at large. To differentiate between the incident you are naming, the specific incident was called "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male." Given the amount of vaccines administered and the population who has received them, I think it is safe to say that the vaccine program is not something that is targeting a minority demographic.

"People don't trust the vax because they have not been tested for long term effects. (See thalidomide)" 1. Thalidomide was a drug, not a vaccine. 2. The testing for thalidomide in post-war Germany was not nearly as thorough as the testing process is today. 3. We have talked about this multiple times on this forum, but there has never been a vaccine that has shown significant long term side effects, where side effects did not show up in the first several weeks. To my knowledge, the only actual vaccine that was pulled from distribution, was pulled because its rather harmful side effects showed up in the first several weeks. We haven't seen any devastating side effects with the current vaccines and it has been out now for almost a year.

"People reject the government Mandate as an attack on our freedoms. (Didn't the Left coin the phrase, "My Body, My Choice!")? You're making it about politics again, which is sad. To adopt your rationale though, I am not pro-choice, personally. The whole crux of the argument falls on when it stops affecting "your body" and starts affecting someone else's body. To that end, the vaccine mandates are justified. We have mandates in place to wear seatbelts, buy auto insurance, wear clothing, etc. Like the court said in Jacobsen, one person's constitutional freedoms end where another's begins. To turn the tables, when it comes to advocating against abortion, that's a mantra which should be embraced.

"People are like a spring, the harder you push down on them, the harder they push back. Subjugation don't fly with many." I'm not so sure I know what this means. Subjugation is often a perspective. Obviously, there are people who feel that the vaccine is subjugation. Whether that belief is genuine or stoked by demagogues is something else entirely. I'm not sure where this subjugation sentiment was when the previous vaccine mandates were instituted.

In sum, there are reasons. The only good reason I think I can see though is where someone legitimately consults with a physician and the physician says "hold off on getting this." That makes sense. Otherwise, we just have ourselves another wedge issue for opportunistic, self-interested politicians to grasp hold of.

You actually missed the real reason why "but... Thalidomide" makes no sense.

Thalidomide wasn't initially (1950's and 60's) approved by the FDA... because of potential safety concerns. So the "but... thalidomide" argument is actually one FOR vaccines considering they are gaining full approval. It was later approved as a cancer treatment... so the Thalidomide babies issue was one that largely didn't include the US... because of our FDA.

I'm not so sure I know what this means. Subjugation is often a perspective.

Many people reject the Mandates as subjugation by an overly authoritarian government. People, like springs, push back as hard as they are pushed down.
Forcing our citizens to get the vax or else you can't work, go to restaurants or events as businesses are being forced to play vax police, demanding "Show us your papers", is considered unAmerican by many.

For the most part I agree with your post and think people should CHOOSE to get vaccinated.

The long term effects of thalidomide were not known at the time and turned out to be devastating.

If memory serves, when given to pregnant women it caused severe birth defects such as missing limbs and was found it could skip a generation and strike the next.

Giving the largely untested for long term effects vax to older folks is one thing, giving it to children without knowing its effects in 10, 20, 30 years is frightening to me.

I grew up with thalidomide kids.

... which is why our FDA never approved it back when it was being given to pregnant women.

To be totally clear... I'm not arguing that drugs don't have (potentially dangerous) side effects. I'm arguing that, in this case, the FDA saw that and acknowledged it and allowed to to inform their opinion to NOT approve the drug.

I obviously don't think anyone should get strapped down and be given the vaccine or anything like that, but I also don't think people should complain when a company wants to charge more of a health insurance premium to people who refuse to get vaccinated, or if businesses make it a requirement of employment. It's like smoking. Choices have consequences and people are not entitled to have certain things the same way as others depending on their choices.

New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection

In today’s MMWR, a study of COVID-19 infections in Kentucky among people who were previously infected with SAR-CoV-2 shows that unvaccinated individuals are more than twice as likely to be reinfected with COVID-19 than those who were fully vaccinated after initially contracting the virus. These data further indicate that COVID-19 vaccines offer better protection than natural immunity alone and that vaccines, even after prior infection, help prevent reinfections.

“If you have had COVID-19 before, please still get vaccinated,” said CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky. “This study shows you are twice as likely to get infected again if you are unvaccinated. Getting the vaccine is the best way to protect yourself and others around you, especially as the more contagious Delta variant spreads around the country.”

The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.

Additionally, a second publication from MMWR shows vaccines prevented COVID-19 related hospitalizations among the highest risk age groups. As cases, hospitalizations, and deaths rise, the data in today’s MMWR reinforce that COVID-19 vaccines are the best way to prevent COVID-19.

COVID-19 vaccines remain safe and effective. They prevent severe illness, hospitalization, and death. Additionally, even among the uncommon cases of COVID-19 among the fully or partially vaccinated vaccines make people more likely to have a milder and shorter illness compared to those who are unvaccinated. CDC continues to recommend everyone 12 and older get vaccinated against COVID-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

It's odd how the same party that has pushed right to work states, hate unions and have claimed for so long now that companies have the right to require anything they wish or they can fire you for any reason at all have suddenly changed their minds about that. It appears someone found their kryptonite.