DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus A fence for me but not for thee

You seem to think that jailing, feeding prisoners and responding to calls are free. They are not.

Local Spending on Jails Tops $25 Billion in Latest Nationwide Data

Costs increased despite falling crime and fewer people being admitted to jail

The average annual cost of holding a person in jail was about $34,000.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-briefs/2021/01/local-spending-on-jails-tops-$25-billion-in-latest-nationwide-data

It's hard to hold a rational debate with someone who keeps avoiding the reality of the situation.

How Many Individuals with Serious Mental Illness are in Jails and
Prisons?

As of 2014 it was estimated at 20%.

https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter...20in%20jails%20and%20prisons%20final.pdf

The cost of housing inmates and dealing with those who are mentally ill would be better left to professionals equipped to handle that. The cost of housing and feeding those inmates would be better spent doing just that. That has zero impact on paying police officers.

This issue suffers from truly lousy branding.

I swear to God, folks on the left must say to themselves, "How can I take a great idea, then find a slogan for it that alienates half the country?"

'Defund' was stupid from the start. It was inaccurate, misleading and easily corruptible by others with a different agenda.

Any slogan the requires explanation is an epic fail from the start.

Like all great ideas from the Left, they come from the Heart but the Head is never engaged.

Just because something is a great idea does not mean it will work. The follow through, the headwork, the what-ifs are not considered.

-Lets get the heck out of Afgan now! (great idea) but no one did the follow through, the head work. We left behind Americans and billions in equipment.

-Lets get rid of stinky, polluting Oil and stop Shale drilling that pollutes the water and scars the land! (good idea) but again, no headwork, no follow through!
$5 buck gas, no one investing in oil drilling as we suffer shortages while waiting for the wind to blow!
Congress is left telling the American people we need to get rid of oil while the President begs oil companies, foreign and domestic, to pump more oil!

There are so many examples of the Biden Administrations good ideas that just fail in the real world because they are not thought out first.

So America suffers from more of the Lefts "Good Ideas".
Next time you have a good idea, do us a favor and keep it to yourself or run it by a thinking person before you engage and screw it up.

Newark New Jersey
The thoughts have come from that place
40 doesn’t read

LMOA@U
Maybe we should bring your boy back because those effing brainiacs thought about everything... lmao.

Nobody misses that whiney little bitch.

Um, criminally mentally ill still have to be housed. Or do you fell the Aurora Theater Shooter should be free? Or Jared Lee Loughner? or really anybody who is a mass shooter as they are all nuts. Turning criminally mentally ill loose in society isn't going to "fix the police problem." It has nothing to do with defunding the police. Like usual you are deflecting or whatabouting to some other thing not related to the topic.

Pit just feels anything a democrat advocates is good. Then posts links that support him, while ignoring real life. It's who he is.

Guys like the ones you mentioned should get a full appeal process hastened to end in less than two years and if nothing is overturned, execute them.

Pretty bold statement.

Pit liking all Dems
AOC he does not like
You should try again

All of your recent posts read like a haiku.
You okay, bro?
Just want to make sure you're not a bot.

Kids books now my life
Does funny things to me now
I am real dude

Raising kids is hard, and important
Keep doing what you do
Don't get distracted by this schtick. Not needed

lol, you got it bad.

Of course thinking didn't enter into your post. Many mentally ill are locked up in mental institutions for years and sometimes decades. Just like they are in jails. The difference being they have professionals to treat them, give them the medications they need and control them better. I guess you must have missed that in your zest to try and attempt a feeble counterpoint.

That's exactly what southerners said about the idea of ending slavery. That's what they said about women having the right to vote, desegregation and civil rights.


Just imagine how much more of a mess it would have been if we had rushed it three months earlier according to trump's agreement with the terrorist.


Yet anyone with a brain know these things are not connected. And unless you're living in California you're not paying $5 a gallon for gas. That's a lie. Not surprising though.


Like storming the capital?

While you sit and whine with nothing to back it up. No evidence provided and all you can do is try and shoot the messenger. Not everything the Democrats support is good. I think far left progressives have lost their ever loving minds. But you do you arch. Keep attacking me with no original thoughts or evidence of your own to back it up. In internet terms that pretty much describes a troll.

Progressives are not FAR LEFT bro. They are true left. Unlike centrist republicans in dem clothing. Face it, the right moved far right away from you and other conservative leaning centrists, so y'all want to make the dem party the new conservative party... take that trash out with you and don't let the door hit you in the ass. Every centrist sellout like Manchin and Sinema will soon be primaried and replaced by a progressive, bank that. We will return the country to a fair, profitable, democracy for all that is riddled with opportunities for the poor and working class to clime the socioeconomic ladder. A strong social safety net and a leveled playing field for the employer/employee and innovative entrepreneurial dynamics. Eventually, the center and the right will realize what we already know; there is more than enough wealth to go around and when we work to insure everyone is included in the opportunities of a fair economy, all boats will rise, and business will boom.

Now I'm sure you will respond with a snotty scoff because you hate being shut down and not getting the final word as if you are the leading expert on all things... But even the slightest bit of reflection by anyone with half a brain would result seeing the truth I speak. So you go ahead and keep acting like Progressives are some far left kind of aliens, while you share your centrist echo chamber bed with Trump supporters in hiding influencing your thought processes. smh, blind as hell but thinks he sees all.

We're never going to agree on this. We've been over and over it time and time again. We belong to a nation that has always been built on the art of compromise. Not a government built on, "If I don't get everything I want I'm taking my ball and going home!" We agree on a lot of things. But we disagree on some things. Speaking the same way you claim Trumpians do to someone who agrees with you more often times than not is why the democratic party is currently accomplishing nothing.

If you are a dem, act like one and do things that are good for the working class and poor. If you are not a dem and not a Trumpian republican, then you are an independent that should choose which party represents your values at a given time and vote accordingly. But being part of a past centrist power dynamic that is dying in front of your eyes, still doesn't mean that progressives are far left or some kind of bad socialist commies... And their policies are the only ones making any sense at all in today's political and economic climates. If the center had better ideas, they should put them forward to get a vote. But nah, the center is playing old school 80s republican politics against their own side and continuously trying to crap on the progressive agenda, Biden's (your boy) agenda. Funny how Biden, a centrist, got elected on a progressive agenda that Bernie campaigned on... Centrist stole the nomination, but the majority of the country wanted everything in the progressive agenda... progressives must be out of touch...

You can fight for the good, support the left in the era of Trump, help fix the country's broken economy and institutions by helping to advance the agenda or you can play obstructionist like the GOPers. Your choice and I hope you join our side, but you need to accept that the progressives now control the house, and soon the Senate. Centrist dems are dying off, their time (for now) has passed. After we fix the country with the Biden agenda FULLY codified, centrist will make a comeback in responsible governing moving forward, but not until we end the legal bribes many in power sell their votes for, like Manchin and Sinema. Until then, disagree all you want but you are really just along for the ride at this point. Unless you plan to vote for a fascist dictatorship, you need to do what progressives were forced to do for so many years as a minority caucus in the dem party and go along to get along. That means throwing your support behind the President's agenda, not hogtying it so Trumpism can make a comeback.

Yesterdays elections tell a different tale. Progressives are holding the infrastructure bill as blackmail. The result is the Democrats have accomplished nothing. Not one damned thing. They paid for it yesterday and will pay a heavy toll for it in 2022. At that point they'll lose both the house and the senate. Then nobody will accomplish anything. But you are right about one thing. I'm not a Democrat. My vote isn't owned by anyone. As I said, we agree on far more things than we disagree on. But I'm not going to advocate that we accomplish nothing because progressives are holding the infrastructure bill hostage. I know you can't see it.

Bro you got this all ass backwards, BIDEN's agenda INCLUDES what progressives are fighting for... the bipartisan infrastructure bill is another GOPer infused privatization bill. I know you can't wait to get all your new toll roads... And if governing from the left means bowing to the right for centrist dems, I don't want them to win. If they want to act like republicans, they aren't really dems are they? I wouldn't whiz on Manchin if he was on fire, he's no dem. And Sinema is a straight up sellout. She said all the progressive stuff and acted like a legit left candidate until big money come calling, now she's more in the corporate pocket than Liz Cheney... they are why nothing is getting done, 2 people against the whole dem caucus... so you just lied about progressives because you hate the left.

There's a difference in what I would like to see happen and what you can get passed. See, that's where you're flawed in your thinking. I don't hate the left. In that regard you're no different than the right. You claim anyone that doesn't sing the exact same tune as you must surely hate somebody. That's no less of a lie than when those on the right do the same thing. And the way you are acting is exactly why you turn off voters that otherwise may actually support your candidates. It's like watching a spoiled child throw a tantrum at the mall. I actually even posted yesterday on a thread somewhere that the bills being proposed is exactly the platform Biden ran on. And I'm not a fan of Manchin or Sinema. But the reality is they are votes 49 and 50 of any bill you're trying to pass. Without their votes you pass nothing.

Your proposal means nothing gets done. My proposal is you get what you can and live to fight another day. I'm so sick of those on the right and people like you on the far left thinking anyone who doesn't walk lock step in line with you are against you. I'm trying to deal with the reality of the way things are. You need the votes of Manchin and Sinema. That's just the way it is. Playing the denial game nets you nothing. If that's what you want, that's what you'll get.

If you refuse to work within the system, then you need to be the one that fixes that system. I don't see realistic fixes to the system being put out there, and even less progress.

To me it's just simple math. They need 50 votes to pass anything. Sadly, without Manchin and Sinema nothing passes. It isn't difficult to figure out. You can still accomplish some of the things you want. The sad part about all of this is, I actually agree with OCD that it's not everything I would like to see passed. I liked the original bill much better. But he's too busy alienating people to absorb that.

1) I don't care what centrist think now that they are in the minority in our party. They never gave a damn about what progressives wanted.
2) Passing the President's agenda IS SUPPOSED to be the goal of the party in power. Not blocking it for personal gain. Not saying you don't agree with the leader of your party... And I'm not saying they should have no input, but they damn sure shouldn't have cost American families 1.75 trillion MORE in services and safety net. Idiots. Guarantee the republicans would have passed Trumps agenda without the dems, but Manchin wants bipartisanship on these bills. That's his lie anyway. What he really wants is to not lose his energy company income or raise taxes on himself and his family. Self-serving SOB. Sinema is the same.
3) Biden adopted the progressive agenda and centrist should FIGHT to pass it, not block it. If the roles were reversed, imagine the outrage at progressives. And I'm sick of hearing progressives ragged on all over MSM for sticking to their guns, to pass these bills. They are saying it's the progressives holding things up... blah blah blah. The center is blocking this, not the progressives.

At this point, they can kill it all as far as I'm concerned. Last thing I want to see is another tax break for the rich OR the privatization of our physical infrastructure. And they've cut out every bit of the bill to tax the rich, playing mumbo jumbo number cruncher to show how they will pay for it now. If they pass this cut in half version, most of it is very corporation friendly, in other words, more handouts.

And Pit I know we see most crap the same, but when centrist act like the enemy of progress purely out of personal greed, instead making the country and economy work for everyone... You damn right I have problems with what they SAY they believe. And honestly bro, I don't care what you think of me saying this. As SOON as Trump is out of the picture and this fascism is under control, centrist can have the dem party all to themselves. No worries.

For someone who felt as betrayed as you did over how they did Bernie in the primaries, I find this to be a bad look. Also, I don't think they are in the minority. Biden, when it comes down to it, is as middle-of-the-road as you can get. So are the rest of the heavy-hitters in the party.

You just have terrible math skills or you're so blinded with hate you refuse to use them. I have no idea which one. Maybe both.

Do the math. You will need 50 votes. Without Manchin and Sinema you have 48. Nothing passes. So what anyone "thinks or feels" means nothing at this point. When you allow your emotions overrun your common sense you end up with nothing. While I want more I'm certainly not willing to settle for nothing. It seems you are. That's actually the only place we disagree here.

Think what you want bro. Time will tell. I can't wait for progressives to leave the dems and it's coming at some point soon. The only reason it hasn't happened already is Trump and the fascism.

Why? Do the centrist treat progressives like equals in your eyes? No, like pit, they think they can look down their noses at progressives or talk crap about us with no backlash, and it's been that way for decades. Pit thinks it's normal, because he takes great joy in piling on. So no, not a bad look at all. I don't see them as real dems, like rinos, dinos.

Firstly, DINOs is such a better (funnier) abbreviation than RINO. Not sure why, but I haven't seen that used before and I like it.

Generally, it's hypocritical to complain about getting crapped on, and then turn around and do the exact same thing. That's really the long and the short of it.

IMO that would be a very foolish thing to do. Things are tipping in the progressives favor and has happened more and more in just the past decade. Soon they will run the Democratic party completely. That would be their best position to control power. But you might be right. They're not a very patient bunch.

You just keep lying don't you? Math is not your friend is it? I pointed out the current numbers. I pointed out how currently, as things stand, you will get nothing without the support of Manchin and Simema's votes in the senate. In all of the discussions on this board it seems you can't comprehend that we actually want the same things. There's not some huge chasm between us. I address you the way I do because of who you are, not the fact you're a proggressive. I've pointed out that I'm not fan of Manchin and Sinema either. But don't worry, you won't like it much when I start treating you like an enemy too.

Yeah, not until somebody comes along like a progressive Trump and runs the centrist republicans out. Not all centrists are republicans, Joe Manchin is and has been for a decade or more. And I have no issue with healthy debate, but centrists are still treating progressives like red headed stepchildren from an ugly wife and a hobo... Oh, they love us when they need our votes but try to silence us at all other times. I'm not surprised you don't see that. It's the political equivalent of an abusive relationship if you ask me.

And yes, the progressives are on the rise and will absolutely rule the left in a few more years. They are so close now they can feel it.

I can see you care.

Pit, Manchin and Sinema bastardized the bill to the point it's almost unrecognizable to progressives. Progressives stuffed that bill with things to help normal people that got removed over donor concerns by the centrists. Dems are the party that is SUPPOSED to fight for the little guy. Trying to help America while snakes in your own party undermine the effort over conservative talking points and bipartisanship in the current political atmosphere where they know this won't happen... it's obstruction, plain and simple. The things removed have 60-90% approval ratings from BOTH parties in almost all current polling. Senators Manchin and Sinema don't give a damn what their constituents want, it's all about personal gain and donors. Are you telling me you are ok with those two blocking leftward progress when the public is all but demanding it? And they can't figure out why people aren't going back to work... Kill the plutocracy or kill the democracy, that's the choice we are faced with.

And you have treated me like the enemy many times, sometimes you were too blind to see you own actions and others you just came straight at me. You went to the socialist (in a bad way) thing during the primary when Bernie was winning right along with the rest of the centrists. So, cry me a river... And if you want to treat me as your enemy, bye Felicia.

Later on Chad. Yes, when you throw tantrums I come after you. When you try and have a rational discussion we have discussions. Let me tell you what I just saw. Moderates came up with a compromise with the progressives to vote for the Build Back Better bill if the Congressional Budget Committee shows it will actually be paid for as all of the progressives and Biden are saying it will be. In return the progressives agreed to vote and help pass the infrastructure bill.

In reality, even after that deal was reached, six progressives still voted against the infrastructure bill. Once again acting like children throwing a tantrum and breaking the very deal they had agreed to. Once again breaking a deal that was reached bringing into question if anyone can trust them.

The Democrats who voted "nay" were: Jamaal Bowman of New York, Cori Bush of Missouri, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan.

You act as though I'm against all progressives when the fact is I support what they're trying to accomplish. I just wish a select few of them would act like grown ups instead of them acting like they are still in diapers. I totally disagree with the way Manchin and Sinema have conducted themselves as well. There's actually a few more that fall very closely in that same category. But see, when you don't dig in your heels and support either extreme no matter what they do you can find some sense of objectivity. You can see the problem that exists within both sides. Otherwise you never will.

They are definitely picking up momentum. To me, it’s actually very similar to 2016. They are being overridden by the career politicians in their party who are used to “things have always been this way.” I’m betting that they will act shocked too when their own hostile takeover happens, much the same way Republicans did in 2016, even though they should know better. I don’t think progressives really have a “champion” though, at least yet.

With Republicans drifting more toward Trump, it’ll be very interesting to potentially see a progressive controlled left vs a Trumpian controlled right.