The year we drafted Baker I did more quarterback research than I have ever done. We had the first pick and we were going to pick a quarterback.
I spent months watching tape endlessly of the top guys. I have to admit Darnold was my first choice. But it was no slam dunk.
Baker really intriqued me. I liked the form of Josh Rosen throwing the ball but I didn't like him as a leader.
Honestly I thought Lamar would never make it as a passer. His talent as a runner was clear. I give him major credit for his improvement as a passer.
The guy who I thought had a long way to go in development was Allen. But I also felt he had the biggest upside of any player in the that draft.
His physical skill set was tops. He was tough as nails. He had that Jim Kelly physicality. His arm was incredible. He also showed he could be a leader.
The big problem with him was decision making. That of all things in the evaluation of quarterback can define the risk of failure or success. He would not give up on plays and he would try to play hero ball. Most of the time it would result in turnovers.
I thought he could be one of those guys who would be rushed into playing and could fall on his face. The Bills to their credit really worked with him. They stuck with him. He made mistakes in bunches. But he kept improving. He made a huge leap in year three. He still on occasion reverts back to old bad habits. But then he recovers.
The Bills payed him. They made him a franchise quarterback.
Interestingly, Mel Kiper thought the Browns should go all in on him. Usually I don't put much into Mel's take. He said Allen was a gamble but the Browns should roll the dice and go all in.
crf nailed you. That's why you avoided like the plague my question about who stopped using the play action pass. It's because we use it about the exact same amount we did last year. Your claim was bogus.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The Browns currently have the best pass block win rate in the league. The "pass block win rate metric conveys the rate linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer."
I clicked the link and found out that cfs seems to believe that the Browns OLine is made up of just our 2 OGs and the Center.
Studying the graphs from cfs's link, on the strength of the performances of Bitonio, Tretter and Teller, cfr tries to make the claim that the Browns entire OLine has given Mayfield GREAT PASS BLOCKING this season.
...they might play Pro Football with just 3 Offensive linemen in Calif....but here in Ohio, it takes 5 OLinemen to make up a NFL offensive line.
No doubt that the Browns 3 interior linemen have played up to expectations most of the time...but the Browns offensive tackles are having poor seasons when it comes to pass protection.
The Browns main pass protection issues originate at the OT positions.
The year we drafted Baker I did more quarterback research than I have ever done. We had the first pick and we were going to pick a quarterback.
I spent months watching tape endlessly of the top guys. I have to admit Darnold was my first choice. But it was no slam dunk.
Baker really intriqued me. I liked the form of Josh Rosen throwing the ball but I didn't like him as a leader.
Honestly I thought Lamar would never make it as a passer. His talent as a runner was clear. I give him major credit for his improvement as a passer.
The guy who I thought had a long way to go in development was Allen. But I also felt he had the biggest upside of any player in the that draft.
His physical skill set was tops. He was tough as nails. He had that Jim Kelly physicality. His arm was incredible. He also showed he could be a leader.
The big problem with him was decision making. That of all things in the evaluation of quarterback can define the risk of failure or success. He would not give up on plays and he would try to play hero ball. Most of the time it would result in turnovers.
I thought he could be one of those guys who would be rushed into playing and could fall on his face. The Bills to their credit really worked with him. They stuck with him. He made mistakes in bunches. But he kept improving. He made a huge leap in year three. He still on occasion reverts back to old bad habits. But then he recovers.
The Bills payed him. They made him a franchise quarterback.
Interestingly, Mel Kiper thought the Browns should go all in on him. Usually I don't put much into Mel's take. He said Allen was a gamble but the Browns should roll the dice and go all in.
I remember the Board. Nobody wanted him.
Yeah, I figured Allen was one concussion away from drooling into his soup. So far he has proven everybody wrong.
The year we drafted Baker I did more quarterback research than I have ever done. We had the first pick and we were going to pick a quarterback.
I spent months watching tape endlessly of the top guys. I have to admit Darnold was my first choice. But it was no slam dunk.
Baker really intriqued me. I liked the form of Josh Rosen throwing the ball but I didn't like him as a leader.
Honestly I thought Lamar would never make it as a passer. His talent as a runner was clear. I give him major credit for his improvement as a passer.
The guy who I thought had a long way to go in development was Allen. But I also felt he had the biggest upside of any player in the that draft.
His physical skill set was tops. He was tough as nails. He had that Jim Kelly physicality. His arm was incredible. He also showed he could be a leader.
The big problem with him was decision making. That of all things in the evaluation of quarterback can define the risk of failure or success. He would not give up on plays and he would try to play hero ball. Most of the time it would result in turnovers.
I thought he could be one of those guys who would be rushed into playing and could fall on his face. The Bills to their credit really worked with him. They stuck with him. He made mistakes in bunches. But he kept improving. He made a huge leap in year three. He still on occasion reverts back to old bad habits. But then he recovers.
The Bills payed him. They made him a franchise quarterback.
Interestingly, Mel Kiper thought the Browns should go all in on him. Usually I don't put much into Mel's take. He said Allen was a gamble but the Browns should roll the dice and go all in.
I remember the Board. Nobody wanted him.
Yeah, I figured Allen was one concussion away from drooling into his soup. So far he has proven everybody wrong.
Allen was far and away my top pick, I touted him here for months. Everyone that chirped with the "accuracy" bs (like it was impossible to change), I countered with the fact that I would gladly give away those 3 passes a game for someone that can make every throw, from every angle, and runs like Gronk in the open field.
Some want us to believe that Mayfield is simply complaining over nothing when Mayfield said he is beat up with by the hits he's endured .
.... it might have hurt..NO, it obviously did hurt.
But that hit won't even show up in any stat column! It was not a sack because Mayfield got the ball out of his hand before the hit occurred. When it comes to grading the Browns lineman who nearly got his QB killed by missing his block...the numbers won't count that missed assignment by Hance, either.
franchise qb is one that gets you into the playoffs. Baker has dominated the bengals, beats the steelers. Our defense gives up 30 or 40 points a game. Our 3rd down on defense can be as bad as 50%
Dan Marino went to one superbowl. Franchise qb.
Do we really want to guess on another draft at qb?
I`m not thinking they are gonna give him top qb money. So i think the point is moot
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
My mistake Fate. I don't remember everyone's take but the majority did not believe Allen to be the right pick.
Whatever, people's take is about Baker. One fact stands true. Finding a franchise quaterback is really hard to do.
The chance of getting a top ten type guy through a trade or free agency. Not going to happen most likely.
The draft? Please really look at those odds. Where you draft? How long it takes to find out?( 3 years or more) It is almost a ten year search to find a guy to lead a team for ten plus years.
The Browns are the poster team for trying to find a quarterback.
IMO I would take my chances with Baker as is and his chances of improving over finding "the man."
Baker is a driven player. He is tough on himself. He is competitive as you can get. He is a leader. He plays to win and for his teammates.
He may not have the full compliment of skills. But IMO he has enough to win with a good team around him.
Even if you are considered the best quarterback in football. You are still dependent upon the players around you.
You need a good quarterback no doubt. But you also need a good team to win a Super Bowl.
I think Baker will play next year on the 5th year of his contract. There will be no contract offer in the off season or it will be very low and Mayfield will not accept. I think he's going to be upset about this but will put his head down and play. I believe he really feels that his contributions extend beyond his play on the field. He consistently talks about how he has helped change the culture. These are shots at the organization ... "move on from me at your own peril". I think with no contract he could even want to move on to another team. I think he feels extremely slighted by the organization.
Personally, I think Mayfield is a little soft mentally. Anyone who pays attention and responds to social media as much as he does is a little insecure. I believe the lack of a contract this year has affected his play as much as the injuries have. Instead of "I'll prove it to them" he kind of goes into a shell because he starts doubting himself.
This season's failures thus far are equal parts Stefanski (just did not see this one coming; this is almost more disappointing than Baker), Woods, and Baker. Each get a third of the pie. I could go Woods 40%, Baker and Stefanski 30%. We are in trouble with Woods. His presser this week was nothing short of cringeworthy. Guy is absolutely lost and it wouldn't be a surprise if his players didn't respect him.
I'm still holding out hope the team can go on a little bit of a run here starting today, but what a disappointing season.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
I don't think the culture has been changed at all. I felt at the end of last year it was starting to but after what we've seen this year definitely not.
J/C on the Josh Allen talk... Allen went to a team in 2018 that didn't fire their coach 8 weeks into the season..Then had a DC become interim HC...Then the following year had another new HC in Freddie Kithchens...Then again the following year a new GM and HC...
Allen was put into a situation to succeed in Buffalo.. never knowing the answer to this...but how would he have fared through all that crap ?
I love how you and a few others call bringing up legitimate concerns about Mayfield "trying to crap on Mayfield"
With all of your wrangling, there is no argument he has been given the most time in the pocket. Now if you want to blame that on our WR's not getting open, go ahead. Maybe you can make that argument. The argument could also be made he's become gun shy and is not being decisive. As some have pointed out he keeps double clutching the ball and holding it. When he used to take a three or five step drop and let the ball go. Why is that happening? I have no idea. However, trying to say, "Yeah but even though he's been given the most time to throw the ball, "whatabout".
We've seen good Baker and we've seen bad Baker. Which one of these two he really is, is an unknown at this time. Maybe both. You call that crapping on him. It's hard to believe anyone would even make that up. Yet here you are.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
With Allen much of the talk was he was still very raw. His progress to becoming a good NFL QB was more of a project. That creates a bigger gamble. Someone decided to take that gamble and it appears to be paying off. But it could just as easily turned out the other way.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
CFR...Let's just hope all 5 of the Browns OLine are dedicated to doing all they can to WIN today...be it 'protecting' the QB or opening holes for our RBs...
The year we drafted Baker I did more quarterback research than I have ever done. We had the first pick and we were going to pick a quarterback.
I spent months watching tape endlessly of the top guys. I have to admit Darnold was my first choice. But it was no slam dunk.
Baker really intriqued me. I liked the form of Josh Rosen throwing the ball but I didn't like him as a leader.
Honestly I thought Lamar would never make it as a passer. His talent as a runner was clear. I give him major credit for his improvement as a passer.
The guy who I thought had a long way to go in development was Allen. But I also felt he had the biggest upside of any player in the that draft.
His physical skill set was tops. He was tough as nails. He had that Jim Kelly physicality. His arm was incredible. He also showed he could be a leader.
The big problem with him was decision making. That of all things in the evaluation of quarterback can define the risk of failure or success. He would not give up on plays and he would try to play hero ball. Most of the time it would result in turnovers.
I thought he could be one of those guys who would be rushed into playing and could fall on his face. The Bills to their credit really worked with him. They stuck with him. He made mistakes in bunches. But he kept improving. He made a huge leap in year three. He still on occasion reverts back to old bad habits. But then he recovers.
The Bills payed him. They made him a franchise quarterback.
Interestingly, Mel Kiper thought the Browns should go all in on him. Usually I don't put much into Mel's take. He said Allen was a gamble but the Browns should roll the dice and go all in.
I remember the Board. Nobody wanted him.
Yeah, I figured Allen was one concussion away from drooling into his soup. So far he has proven everybody wrong.
Allen was far and away my top pick, I touted him here for months. Everyone that chirped with the "accuracy" bs (like it was impossible to change), I countered with the fact that I would gladly give away those 3 passes a game for someone that can make every throw, from every angle, and runs like Gronk in the open field.
BTW, Bird, aren't you talking about Rosen?
I coulda sworn it was Allen that had a history of concussions. But then again I do suffer from c.r.a.f.t. Can’t Remember a Freaking thing.
A FQB doesn’t post a 6QBR against the Lions at home
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Certainly not totally blameless. But unless you think the HC is telling the QB he's not allowed to throw to an open WR if he's more than 10 yards downfield, with our OL I think there's a limit you can blame on the HC.
You asked me once, when I was critical of Stefanski, if I thought he just forgot things he used to know and do... well I would ask you the same question, we've all seen Baker look great, we've seen him throw darts 20-30 yards downfield, do you think he just forgot how to do that? Or do you think something else might be at work here?
I mean it wasn't and isn't that we have seen Baker throw an occasional good pass. When Baker has looked good he's looked phenomenal. I said elsewhere - you don't complete 20 or 21 pass in a row in the NFL without being very, very good not matter who you are facing. And to your point - you can't be that good and then "forget" how to throw the ball.
Last edited by mgh888; 11/22/2108:49 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Certainly not totally blameless. But unless you think the HC is telling the QB he's not allowed to throw to an open WR if he's more than 10 yards downfield, with our OL I think there's a limit you can blame on the HC.
You asked me once, when I was critical of Stefanski, if I thought he just forgot things he used to know and do... well I would ask you the same question, we've all seen Baker look great, we've seen him throw darts 20-30 yards downfield, do you think he just forgot how to do that? Or do you think something else might be at work here?
Baker has games where he can do no wrong, and then he has the ability to follow that up with clunker games where you can count the on-time-on-target throws on one hand. I would think the foot injury would make it hard to keep your accuracy dialed in, especially for someone that didn't exactly have the best footwork to begin with, but the injury argument begins to fall apart when you realize that he's always had this Jekyl-Hyde thing to his game, when he's off he tends to throw high and behind, and that a foot injury probably doesn't affect decision-making (throwing into double-coverage).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
You asked me once, when I was critical of Stefanski, if I thought he just forgot things he used to know and do... well I would ask you the same question, we've all seen Baker look great, we've seen him throw darts 20-30 yards downfield, do you think he just forgot how to do that? Or do you think something else might be at work here?
Here's my thought process on the matter. When you're winning it's much easier to mentally prepare, be positive and produce. Momentum is working in your direction which makes it far easier mentally to perform. When things start going sideways, it makes those conditions much tougher. I don't think it's so much a question of Baker suddenly losing his physical talent or ability. I think now that his back is up against the wall it makes it far tougher to translate those things to the field of play from a mental standpoint.
It was shown that we are using play action almost exactly the same percentage as we did last year. We have one of the best OL's. Our running game is one of the tops in the league. Those factors haven't really changed. We have both the team doctors and Baker saying he is able to and ready to play. So unless they're all lying to us I think people are using that more as an excuse than the reality. Unless of course as I said you think baker, the team doctors and the coaching staff are all getting it wrong.
I saw the bad decision making yesterday. I saw throws that were totally inaccurate. I saw Baker walk off the field refusing to shake the opponents hands. As I said, unless Baker, the coaches and the team doctors are lying through their teeth, there's something much deeper going in here "with Baker".
When the going gets tough, the tough get going. And I'm not talking about physical toughness. So far I'm not seeing this going anywhere now that things have gotten tough.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
As I said, unless Baker, the coaches and the team doctors are lying through their teeth, there's something much deeper going in here "with Baker".
You just berated a poster in the other thread for posting an opinion that Baker would be on disability if he was a blue collar worker - obviously an opinion that's somewhat of an exaggeration to be sure. But here you are with your own wild opinion based on nothing but your own speculation !
I don't know how badly Baker is banged up. He certainly got banged up further during the game. I don't know what is up with Baker and the team. But based on MANY players all calling out the coaching staff last week ... it does not seem isolated to Baker.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
And I never said it was "all on Baker". But let me ask you this. Do you think passing for one pass over 50% the last two weeks is the fault of the coaching staff? Do you honestly believe Bakers inaccuracy we've seen lately is the fault of the coaching staff? And do you honestly believe that Baker is showing this inaccuracy all week during practice, showing how his injuries are hindering his ability to pay QB and the coaching staff is still trotting him out there on the field every Sunday as our starter?
You see, those are all the things one would have to believe in order to buy into what you seem to be selling here.
That's not some wild opinion based on speculation.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Do you think passing for one pass over 50% the last two weeks is the fault of the coaching staff?
To what then, do you attribute the fact that he has 6 games with completion % over 65% (3 of them being over 70%)? And then the last two have been bad with another horrible one mixed in earlier against the Vikings?
