I am very curious as to what everyone thinks a franchise QB is. What attributes does one have? What physical skills? What mental/intangible skills? And, finally, how many actual franchise QBs are in the league?

Someone who can raise the level of play of those around him … they can put a team on their back in times of need.

Physically they have to be intelligent, good under pressure, and accurate. Strong arm helps. Pocket awareness helps. Leadership helps.

Mahomes, Rodgers, Brady, Wilson, Herbert, Prescott, Watson

We don’t have one of those

Lamar jackson, who we should've drafted.

Think like a Michael Jordan type but playing quarterback. - Somebody you know will find a way to win. For comparison’s sake John Elway, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisburger, Aaron Rodgers, Mahomes, Tom Brady. - They are very hard to find.
I don’t mean to sound insensitive but Baker is not even close to being a franchise quarterback- nor is anybody from that draft. Yeah Josh Allen and Lamar are good, but none of them are in the same category as the guys in the beginning of my post.

To me, Baker is kind of like Rudy. He tries his hardest, he works hard, he plays with fire and passion, but in the end he just doesn’t have what it takes to win the big games. I’ve said this from the moment Baker was drafted- he’s a new version of Jim McMahon. I won’t even give him Doug Flutie status.

It would be interesting to see what Lamar could do with our offense. However, he’s not a franchise quarterback at this point. Neither is Josh Allen. Jmho.

both of them are. i was fully against allen, and boy i was wrong.

any team, players, GM's are taking those two over baker and its not even close.

being a franchise means being able to carry teams to a win despite everything else failing. josh allen has done that multiple times. lamar has done that multiple times.

both of those QB's ARE the running attack. Josh allen doesn't have chubb, hunt, or even a D'ernest. neither does Lamar. half of lamar's team has been out due to covid/injuries, and yet they're at the top of the division. Josh allen got his team to the afc title game.

if we can't run the ball effectively, baker completely folds. everything has to be perfect for him to win. thats not a franchise QB.

Good points, and no question they would both be taken above Baker in a redraft. Heck I’d honestly take Mac Jones over Baker. - There were sideline passes that he completed yesterday that Baker can’t complete. If I’m Andrew Berry, I give either GB or Seattle a Mathew Stafford like offer for Rodgers or Wilson. It’s a good thing we waited and didn’t give Baker a big contract- would’ve been a huge mistake.

OK. Thanks for everyone’s responses so far.

I agree with the following list in no particular order

Montana
Brady
Rodgers
Wilson
Young
Roethlisberger
Mahomes
P. Manning
Aikman
Brees

Could become one:

Jackson
Herbert (too soon to know for absolute certain)
Allen
Prescott
Watson (I doubt this)

All of which begs certain questions and observations:

There is a wide range of physical attributes including height and arm strength.

Mobility as opposed to running is a discussion.

How much does coaching and a particular system as well as the talent and the ability of talent to grow play into success?

Look at Marino, Kelly and Tarkenton. They never won the big one. What was the issue there? The talent around them? If the franchise QB is supposed to raise everybody else did these QBs fail? Or did they actually not have enough talent around them? Was coaching an issue?

When Michael Jordan is brought up it is important to note that he did not win championships until they had the correct talent around him.

Yes, finding a franchise QB is important. It is also very hard and we have seen numerous instances where championships were won without what would be considered a “franchise QB”. That being said getting the best QB possible is vitally important as is getting the coaching right and the talent.

Unfortunately, I no longer think Baker is the guy.

Franchise QB-

wins games
teammates will do anything for them
gets their team to the playoffs consistently and has a shot at playing in a superbowl or two in their career
re-enforces what the coaches coach
turns around a franchise from a perennial loser to a winner
works within the system the coaches give them
has moxie
gritty and willing to suffer through injuries and doesn't constantly end up on IR
surpasses previous franchise records


trivial stats
has a 90+ rating
completes 65% of their passes or more
throws more touchdowns than interceptions by 2:1
throws for 3500+ yards

Actually, in some seasons Flacco meets much of your criteria. I am not being a smartass. It is just that actually getting a guy is really difficult. This underscores why the FO absolutely has to get it right and why so few of them actually do.

I’d trade Baker and three firsts for Herbert

A franchise QB looks like something we certainly do not have.

Won’t argue. That being said they would hang up.

I think some people are confusing Elite with Franchise.

Flacco was a franchise an in my opinion. Won a super bowl and made big plays when he needed to. - Remember the Hail Mary versus Denver.. He got a huge contract as well. His skills/effort just diminished quicker than a lot of other high profile qb’s.

I think a lot of people on this board would have demanded that we trade Tom Brady if he was on our team.

So with 32 teams in the NFL all looking for a "franchise QB", 10-12 new QBs drafted every year (usually 3 or 4 in the first round), and going back to Montana, who was drafted over 40 years ago, there have been 10? Just trying to put into perspective what this all elusive chase for a "franchise QB" actually looks like.

I would just like to pick one name off that list.. Steve Young... he went to USFL for a couple years, then went to Tampa Bay, where he was 3-16 over 2 years with a quarterback rating of about 58.. then he was traded for a 2nd and a 4th to San Fran to sit for a few years behind Montana, then suddenly under Walsh in a great system with other great players... BOOOOOOM!!! franchise QB and hall of famer...

Joe Montana was a 3rd round pick
Tom Brady was a 6th round pick
Russell Wilson was a 3rd round pick
Aaron Rodgers was taken late in the first round behind Alex Smith
Patrick Mahomes was taken behind Mitch Trubisky
Drew Brees was taken in the 2nd round behind Mike Vick

Manning and Aikman are the only 2 on there who were 1st overall picks. Rothlisberger was taken 6th overall but it was behind Eli and Rivers, who both had very respectable careers, though neither appear on the list of franchise QBs, even though one of them won 2 super bowls...... which is more than Wilson, Mahomes, Young, Brees, Rodgers, and the same as Roethlisberger, Manning...

So find me a guy on that list who was drafted to a team that was 1-31 the previous 2 seasons, had 3 different coaches and 3 different systems in his first 3 years and, by year 4, had proven himself to be a franchise QB....

Flacco was considered a franchise QB.

There is a major difference between a franchise QB and a top 5-7 QB in the NFL - especially when 3-5 of the ones playing now are guaranteed to be in the HOF instantly.

Oh stop it !! Context? Balance? When talking about that bum Baker?

Seriously - I believe his Rookie year and the 60% of last year and the first 2 games of this year (when he was NOT hurt) are indications of what Baker is and can be. Despite the narrative - he doesn't need things to be "perfect". He does make players around him better (see Higgins and many average WR's we've had on the team). His team mates love and play hard for him. . . . I've seen him go through progressions. Hell I have seen him make throws that I don't believe any other CLE QB in the last 40 years could make. When he arrived he took a 1-31 team and made them a winning organization "overnight" despite Hue. Every time he's played like a turd he has owned it. Every time there have been influences to contribute, be it coaching or injuries .... It'd be just so Cleveland to see him not retained and go on to have a great career someplace else. Hope he heals up and that the entire team and coaching staff figure this out PDQ.

I won’t argue the point. I think that the real point is the term “franchise quarterback” is meaningless. Every team needs a good QB that can do everything that we seem to ask of them. Very few teams find them because there simply aren’t that many to be found. So every team must find the best possible QB which enters into talent evaluation combined with the quality of talent on the team and brought to the team and, most importantly imo, the ability of the coaching staff to develop and maximize the overall talent while adjusting to injuries and adjusting during games.

Do we actually have that laundry list?

To me there is a big difference between a franchise QB and a good QB. Franchise is more of a elite QB. A franchise QB is a QB who could step in and start for any team in the league except for the other few who have a franchise QB.

how many times have franchise quarterbacks?

If you are wanting to draft a QB in the first round, you do not have a franchise QB.

I'm sure with the good luck we have we could probably find a an elite QB in the 3rd or 4th round in next years draft!!!

I assume you mean teams....I say maybe 5-6-7...I am not going to try to list them...maybe it is a few more. In our division right now, Jackson would be the only one.

Haha, I agree he's turning into quite the Franchise QB under Harbaugh's tutelage, but if we drafted him we would've run him into the ground.

seems to be a topic

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1713557-how-to-define-a-franchise-qb-in-todays-nfl

How do we define a franchise quarterback?

If it is a quarterback who is seen as the face of the franchise, there are probably no less than 15 franchise signal-callers.

If it is someone who is consistently among the top quarterbacks in the NFL, that dwindles down the selection quite a bit.

So, we must first distinguish a franchise quarterback from an elite quarterback.

The parameters of the former are not nearly as rigid as for the latter.

Really, a franchise quarterback can be anyone who has the support of the organization and who the team is not actively trying to replace. Of course, it takes a few different measures to land in that level of good grace, so let's take a look at some of the areas in which a quarterback must be successful in order to earn the moniker of "franchise quarterback."

While very few quarterbacks will fit the bill for all the criteria, these are just the factors for consideration.

Statistical Pedigree

Quarterbacks who pass the ball for big yards grab headlines, but while volume stats captivate the nation, they are rarely the difference between wins and losses.

Accuracy. Efficiency. Those are the best indicators of quality quarterback play.

Franchise quarterbacks consistently make defenses pay when they have the ball in their hands; likewise, they don't waste very many plays by getting sacked, or throwing passes that hit the ground or fall into the hands of their opponent.

Completion percentage and passer rating are two of the most tried-and-true measures of talented quarterbacks. The standard for a starting quarterback is typically set at a 60 percent completion rate, but the league average last year was 60.9 percent.

Therefore, our number should be higher. Let's add two percentage points, and say anything above 62.9 percent completions earns consideration as a franchise quarterback.

The list of passers who completed over 62.9 percent of their passes last year is just 11 names long. Even Patriots quarterback Tom Brady barely made the cut in 2012.

Obviously, there are more than a few big names who miss the cut.

Completion percentage clearly can't be the exclusive indicator of franchise quarterback material. How could it be, with more than one Super Bowl-winning quarterback falling short in 2012?

Ravens quarterback Joe Flacco has only once completed more than 62.9 percent of his passes in a season, and the same goes for Giants quarterback Eli Manning.


Likewise, Lions quarterback Matthew Stafford was on the shorter list of seven quarterbacks to complete over 62.9 percent of his passes in 2011—in a season where the average completion percentage was lower, at 60.1 percent.

We could also use passer rating, the most universal measure of overall efficiency over the course of a season.

The average rating in 2012 was 83.8, so if we add two points to that number and look at quarterbacks who eclipsed an 85.8 passer rating, we get a list of 15 players.

There are a lot of familiar names on this list—completion percentage is a big part of the equation for passer rating—but this list adds a few players we didn't see before who would otherwise be worthy of consideration as a franchise quarterback.

Another important measure of dynamic quarterback play is the ability to beat defenses for big plays. This isn't indicated in simple passing yards but is better measured in yards per pass attempt. The average was 7.1 and the highest was 8.1, so we'll set the bar at 7.6 for this list.

Again, it remains relatively the same, with one new name appearing: Panthers quarterback Cam Newton. Not only did he beat defenses for the second-highest YPA, he also racked up a gaudy 13.8 yards-per-completion average, a full half-yard better than second-best (Buccaneers quarterback Josh Freeman).

Newton showed the ability to throw the ball deep with great accuracy in 2011 and 2012. Last season, he had the third-highest accuracy percentage on deep throws (receivers either caught or dropped 52.4 percent of his attempts traveling 20 yards or more downfield) behind only Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers and Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning.

So, despite what's been a rough couple of seasons for the Panthers, they can feel confident in their quarterback.

As Patriots head coach Bill Belichick once said, though, "Stats are for losers."

And like it or not, another big part of the equation is...

Winning

Yes, overall win-loss record is one of the worst measures of a quarterback. It tells you nothing about the player except that he's on a team that wins. The quarterback is considered the most important player on the field, but in what is frequently called the "ultimate team sport," we shouldn't give one player all the credit for winning or all the blame for losing.

Thankfully, there's a way to measure a quarterback's ability to help his team win without doing any of the above.

Win probability added, or WPA for short, has been used in baseball for years. Now, stats website Advanced NFL Stats has begun applying it to the game of football. ANS founder Brian Burke explains it as follows:


o, how can we analyze the data from WPA to help us get closer to defining a franchise quarterback—and finding one?

When we consider that 28 quarterbacks have a per-game WPA over zero, our standards must clearly be higher than that.

With Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers leading the way at a 0.31 WPA/G, let's take the mean of that and zero, and set our "standard" for a franchise quarterback at 0.155 WPA/G.

Our list of names remains relatively similar to what we've already seen to this point, but with two notable exceptions: Cam Newton (who has appeared on just one other list to this point) and 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick.


One thing that both do exceptionally well? Run with the football.

In today's NFL, where it seems mobile quarterbacks are becoming the wave of the future, the ability of the passer to also tuck it and run—and to be effective doing so—can take a team a long way.

Interestingly enough, Eli Manning still hasn't made any of our lists, so it's time to get him in the right company.

Winning and losing is part of the equation, but getting to the playoffs, and even better, winning a Super Bowl, can carve it in stone.

There may still be doubts in the minds of some as to a quarterback's status among the "elite" in the league, but upon the point of winning a Super Bowl, there's little, if any, doubt about their status as a franchise quarterback.

While Super Bowl wins shouldn't be the lone measure, a quarterback who hoists the Lombardi Trophy is usually considered a lock to be with that team for a long time to come (unless we're talking about Trent Dilfer).

Dynamic Skill Set

We've touched on it through stats a few times already, but a quarterback's ability to throw the ball deep with accuracy, to be incredibly accurate, and to beat defenses multiple ways are all part of the equation with a franchise quarterback.

There are two specific areas we haven't hit yet that could fit this description: arm strength and foot speed.

While yards per attempt is a good measure of efficiency, we want to know which quarterbacks have the ability to drive the ball down the field.


According to Pro Football Focus (subscription required), these 12 quarterbacks led the league in accuracy percentage on throws traveling 20 yards or more through the air.

Robert Griffin III didn't throw a lot of deep passes (just 9.2 percent of his throws went 20 yards or more through the air), but he was deadly accurate on those throws with 50 percent of them being either caught or dropped.

We finally get our first occurrence of the name Andrew Luck, who makes the list with 42.6 percent of his deep throws hitting their target.

Luck himself was responsible for much of the Colts' improvement as a team from 2011 to 2012, and his career trajectory is headed in the right direction, regardless of his label as a franchise quarterback.

Decision Making

Sometimes, a quarterback can't help it if his offensive line doesn't afford him the protection he needs and allows him to get sacked, but some of the game's best quarterbacks are the ones who get the ball out quickly.

Pro Football Focus tracks the average time it takes a quarterback to attempt a pass. The top quarterbacks here are the ones who get the ball out of their hands the quickest.

This number can be the product of the offense—Bills head coach Chan Gailey tailored the entire offense to Ryan Fitzpatrick's inability to throw deep, which meant a lot of quick rhythm passes—but it's also a good indicator of quick decision making, an important trait for the best quarterbacks.

Unfortunately, like just about anything statistical, it's not a fool-proof measure. Some good quarterbacks, even those who might otherwise fall under the label of "franchise quarterback," hold on to the ball a little longer than others. Names like Cam Newton and Russell Wilson might appear on a list of franchise quarterbacks, despite the fact they take the longest to throw on average of any quarterback on the list.


Leadership

This one is nearly impossible to measure by stats, but there are some numbers we can look at to give us a good idea of which quarterbacks possess the better leadership qualities.

How a quarterback performs late in the game and on third down are items we can discuss here, as success in these situations indicates a lot of film study and practice during the week.

Of course, as Drew Brees might tell you, a little motivational leadership can go a long way.

Few quarterbacks in the NFL have as much chutzpah in the huddle as Brees, but those who do include RGIII, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

What about leadership in the biggest situations?

Late-game situations and third downs are the gut-check moments teams hope their quarterbacks thrive in. The quarterbacks who do thrive in these moments are often regarded as quality leaders capable of putting their teams on their backs, taking them to victory.

In 2012, 11 different quarterbacks put together at least three fourth-quarter comebacks, described as leading a team to victory after trailing in the fourth quarter.

Many of these names are among the best quarterbacks in the game, but as always, a few noteworthy names are left off. That being said, Tom Brady has 26 career fourth-quarter comebacks to his name, so no one is going to question his ability to lead his team to victory in crunch time.

A quarterback who can help his team convert key third- and fourth-down situations will also be seen as a franchise player.


Teams converted an average of 36.4 percent of their third downs when throwing the ball, so adding four percentage points to that, we can narrow down the field to get rid of some of the more average offenses.

Even when you think you have these quarterbacks dead to rights, they can still move the chains and keep the offense alive.

Marketability

As nice as it would be if everything revolved around performance on the field, the greatest quarterbacks in the NFL can tell you a thing or two about marketability.

Granted, many of them are marketable because of their talent, but that should tell you something as well.

Peyton Manning has endorsed just about every kind of product under the sun, from MasterCard to Buick to Oreos and so much in between.

That's a product of being one of the best quarterbacks in the game for a long time—not to mention a genuinely funny guy.

Tom Brady has also appeared in plenty of commercials, including a hilarious and underrated commercial for Snickers.

He has been the object of scorn, at times, for his endorsement of UGG, an Australian footwear company made most noteworthy for its boots, typically worn by women. It's not a sponsorship many men would be brave enough to take, but Tom Brady can do that because he's been so good for so long, the criticism always comes back to his dominance on the field.

In some ways, the play on the field is marketability in and of itself, and it stands to reason that any company would want the best players endorsing its product.


That performance doesn't always have to come over a period of several years.

In fact, Cam Newton was picked up by Under Armour less than a year after being drafted, and even appeared in a commercial with Brady. Newton also became one of the most notable spokesmen for the NFL's Play 60 campaign with his famous "loosening my arm" commercial.

Of course, appearing in commercials is not the measure of a franchise quarterback. Otherwise, we'd have to include Tim Tebow in the discussion for his commercials for TiVo and Focus On The Family.

So, while marketability can have an impact on how a quarterback is perceived, it's impossible to use it as a measure of whether a quarterback is worthy of "franchise" status.

Overall

Here, we have discussed eight different stats: completion percentage, yards per attempt, passer rating, win probability added, Super Bowl wins, deep accuracy, fourth-quarter comebacks/game-winning drives, and third-down conversion percentage.

Any quarterback fitting the bill for at least four of the required categories, or having won the Super bowl, could be considered the face of their franchise.

That leaves us with a list of 11 quarterbacks who qualify as a franchise quarterback.

There are another three quarterbacks who are right on the fringe of being considered a franchise quarterback, but a good season in 2013 could put them over the edge.

Any of them would give up any label for the label of Super Bowl champion, but that just so happens to be the golden ticket to earning the label of a franchise quarterback.

Franchise QBs THIS YEAR (not guys for the future obviously)

Mahomes
Brady
Herbert
Prescott
Rodgers
Allen
Wilson
Murray
Stafford

Watson would make the top 10 if he were active

which wuold essentially mean Bernie Kosar was never close to being a


So, by those standards, Brian Sipe, Bernie, Phipps, Nelson never fit those molds and the only franchise QB we have ever had was Otto.

Brian Sipe, Bernie, Bill Nelson and even Frank Ryan were all good enough to lead us to a Super Bowl. Heck, everyone of them led us to a championship game except for Brian and we won one with Frank.

You know it when you see it.

These guys are franchise QBs according to me:

Joe Burrow
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen
Mac Jones
Ryan Tannehill
DeShaun Watson
Justin Herbert
Patrick Mahomes
Dak Prescott
Matt Ryan
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Matthew Stafford
Kyler Murray
Russell Wilson

It's a good list with he exception of Mac Jones ... Baker looked better in his rookie season, a lot can happen. And Deshaun Watson is not a Franchise QB - he's not starting for a team and has a completely uncertain future in the NFL.

Maybe so. I guess you might need to add some timeframe in to the mix. I think Bernie probably was...at least for 4-5 years. Sipe maybe not as long. Phipps and Nelson weren't anything special, especially Phipps. Nelson was a solid QB, especially as his experience level went up.

Not a bad list but some may have been or maybe or probably will be.

That is why I said timeframe might need to be considered. Take Burrow. I think he will be, but might not say he is. Ryan was, but maybe isn't today. Rothlesburger was, but isn't anymore at least as far as his play is concerned...but maybe once you earn it, you keep it.

In the end analysis a franchise quarterback is one who is signed by a franchise to more than one longterm contract.

If you are the starter for eight years or more that is a franchise quarterback.

There are many ways to define a quarterback and many contributing factors.

Hall of Famer. Elite, Franchise, Starter, veteran backup, rookie, first round draft pick, top five pick.

Then you could go into stats or define what makes a great quarterback.

Coming out of college the best pro prospect I have ever seen was Andrew Luck.

Every aspect of playing the position he did at the highest level. Watching him was like watching the best example of doing it right. He was a quarterback training tape. His mechanics were flawless. He also had every intangible.

When you add things like role model and leadership to winning owners love guys like Peyton. Odd that he played for another team as Brady is now.

The Bleacher Report article makes a lot of good points.

But we as fans it becomes subjective because we differ in viewpoints.

I’m betting on the infrastructure with Mac Jones.

I'll ride with 6 until he's gone.

I agree you know it when you see it.

I don't see it with Baker. Most of the NFL world doesn't see it in Baker. Baker has had multiple chances to shut these people up and he continues to prove them right. Doesn't even have the intestinal fortitude to muster some competitive fire and give the NFL world a figurative middle finger. Just folds like a cheap tent. Only performs against weak competition. Never beats good teams. Poser in every sense of the word.

The only people that see it are a few posters on here that keep citing a rookie season where he didn't beat anyone good and had no expectations.

Prove me wrong Baker. Run the table and lead this team to the playoffs. Won't happen. Team doesn't even believe in him. Dude has like 8 td passes in 10 games. He's currently better than Darnold and Zack Wilson. That's it. Hell, he might not even be the best QB on his own team.

There needs to be a troll button. Then we could jetison the fake fans into the fake fan dumpster.

Same. Which is why it hurts so much when he sucks.

Me too

I understand the detractors, but I’m not giving up on Baker, not yet. He was lights out for us the last eight or nine games in 2020.

Everything was fine last week, but then he has a stinker of a game (like everyone else in an orange helmet or a headset on the sidelines, except the punter) and now he’s garbage. Got it.

For whatever reason, we are not throwing to our deep passes. It was only one play, but the telecast showed a play where there was no one open down the field. Nobody.

Later, Baker rifled one to Njoku, and he drops it. Not the reason we lost, but the reason we lost was not Mayfield, it was because our Defense played like crap. We were beaten badly, on both sides of the ball, man-handled. Placing most of the blame on our QB is mid-guided.

The topic is a dumb idea.
A franchise QB?? You know it when you see it. One who wins over time, one who can win games with his play.
One whom everyone associates with the same team over time.
The topic is a dumb idea, (It will get a dumb response.)

none of this whining will help them beat Detroit or any other teams on the way to their probable 8-9 finish.

Are the coaches hamstringing your franchise quarterback?

A franchise quarterback is one who does insurance commerials. There are only 3 in the league.

[/quote]
A franchise quarterback is one who does insurance commercials. There are only 3 in the league.[/quote]

Now that's funny!

I just don't understand how we improve the talent the way we did and have the same staff but look so much worse. We have flashed greatness in some games and ineptitude in others this season. The Chicago and Cinci games are the browns I want to see. What we got against the Steelers and New England is the opposite of the other two games. Toss out those games and we are just an average .500 team, leave them in, same. Although, I'm convinced that the staff that won Ski coach of the year last year had the ability to fix this, this year they seem to be clueless on how to fix anything. And we are starting to see cracks in the facade of how great this roster is... how great the coaching is... how great the players are... recipe for disaster. Sad part is, nothing is wrong that winning won't fix for the team and for the QB.

Why a dumb idea? How many people wanted Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold? How many QBs actually maintain a high level of performance including winning championships? How much of winning is related to the ownership, the FO, talent accumulation/development and coaching in addition to the abilities of the QB himself? There are not a lot of “franchise QBs” because the term is stupid. You want the best QB that you can get, an elite QB, however you acquire or develop one. As an interesting point how many long for the days of Bernie Kosar who won nothing?

This isn’t whining about anything. It is asking a question since we have lacked for a truly quality QB since the expansion franchise came into being in 1999.

Maybe Sam Darnold will be available. If he saw ghosts in New York I'm sure he'll see them in Cleveland! On second thought he better not come here the ghosts may run him right out of town!!!

Darnold went from a love to hate relationship in CLT very quickly. He and Rosen were definitely the most popular picks that year by most posters on this board. Lamar and Baker probably tied with just a handful of posters wanting them.

I wanted nothing to do with Rosen or Lamar. I wanted Allen followed by Baker. Gun to my head I woulda taken Lamar over Rosen.

How many teams have scored under 21 points in six games so far this season and have people trying to pretend they are set at the QB position moving into the future?

Without bothering to look at the game scores I would bet that there are a pretty good number of teams that are not set at QB. Of course, one also would bet that those same teams have a lot more issues than just the QB.

It seems it's like flipping a coin around here though. When we have a great game scoring points, the claims are we have a great supporting cast. The OL, the RB's, the WR's all are just fine. But when we have an outing like we had Sunday, suddenly we have a lot of other problems. That's not how any of this is supposed to work. And yes, I know Chubb and Hunt are out, but Johnson had 157 total yards.

So what are these "other issues" we have that causes us not to score points?

So I am clear - are you blaming all the issues of the offense on Baker?

From your post it *appears* as if you don't think the supporting cast is an issue. It *appears* you don't see or believe there are other issues. That would seem to indicate you think the issue is virtually all the QB.

Right now we don't have a franchise QB, BUT we have a QB I am not giving up on.

Then please explain to me whose fault it is? Is it or is it not true we have one of the NFL's top OL's? How about the RB's? Even Johnson had a 5.2 yards per carry average against the Patriots on 19 carries and another 58 yards in the passing game. People have talked glowingly about our WR's and they have been very productive in some games. People said we played better on O without OBJ. Mayfirld only passed for over 50% by one completion. So who do you fault for that?

I didn't say it was anyone's fault. I asked you to confirm your position.

I believe it is a fair question to ask what now?

There are seven games left in the regular season. We are a 500 team.

What if we end that way? Say 9-8 or 8-9.

If that is the case. Changes will come.

Will the Browns draft a quarterback in the first round? Obviously someone would have to be there that they like better than Baker.

This coming draft has no Trevor.

Would the changes be at receiver? Would the offensive scheme change? Chubb and Hunt will remain.

Schwartz has been a disappointment. He is small and plays that way. He is not strong enough or built to win 50/50 balls. He is a speed guy period.

We know who Higgins is. Jarvis is aging quickly. I love the player but his best days are behind him.

DPJ is our best receiver right now and he is not a number one. So it is safe to say that the receiver room will change.

Baker is hurt. He will have surgery. His contract? That decision looms.

Some good points.

I think the changes that might come -

Nothing at QB. Baker has a cheap 5th year option that is a no brainer. Based on rookie year and last half of last year, you'd be short sighted to move on so quickly. He's hurt this year since week 3 with a torn labarum and broken bone ... and I get that gives the anti-Bakers lots of cannon fodder, but he's still better than Case Keenum even while hurt. I guess a change I would make is to lose Case and his high salary.

WR - Berry has shown a penchant for not drafting in the early rounds. And maybe our lack of talent and ability to separate etc reflects that. We have to see change at WR. We can hope/expect growth from Schwartz and DPJ while Landry is likely going to have to restructure or be gone.

TE - we have some decisions to make but we are okay, or better than okay.

RB - we are most definitely set.

Just by way of clarification I hope that Baker is the guy because things will just drag on and on if he isn’t. I think that his injuries and the chip he always has on his shoulder due to thinking he must always prove himself have combined to work against him. I also think that Stefanski has run into a sophomore jinx. The combination of 16 games worth of film from last year, game films from this year and a harder schedule probably have exposed tendencies that opposing teams are exploiting.

So, with his knee tweaked imo Baker absolutely should not start on Sunday. There is no way that the Browns will make the playoffs this year (yes, I know mathematically it is possible) so resting him is more important. I think they should draft a QB in the next draft. Unless there is a stellar QB available don’t waste a first round pick on one. This does not mean giving up on Baker. It does mean that the entire organization had better think long and hard about the QB position and do what needs to be done to move forward.

Do you think it is possible that they would try to make a trade for Wilson?

Would they pursue Rodgers if he decides to leave GB?

What if Watson's situation is settled and he is available in trade?

If we got Wilson we would be set for a few years but with Rodgers it's a stopgap that would last maybe a year or 2. We would still need to draft and develop a replacement. We haven't been to good at that over the years.

I think Wilson is top 5 ... maybe top 3 in the NFL. His price tag would be too much. I don't see Seattle making that trade.

Rodgers is elite - I think you'd need a new HC if you landed Rodgers so I don't think he'd be in play. But he could win you a SB in the next 2 years.

I am not sold on Watson - who played with the best WR in the NFL for a couple years and managed to go to one playoffs and lose. He gets ridiculous amount of love and kudos ... and has done little in a far superior team to the situation Baker took over. Ad his legal issues - no, I would not want him.

I agree that Wilson’s price tag would be too high. I don’t see Wilson, Rodgers or Watson coming here. The comments regarding Watson are valid, I think.

All of this really shows how hard it is to find, develop, build around and keep a good QB.

True.

That is why I asked those questions. Some make comments like dump Baker after a loss.

And do what exactly?

Oh, trade for Wilson. Go get Watson etc. Like snap your fingers.
"I would take these quarterbacks over Baker etc." So how would they get here?

Berry and Stefanski are not going anywhere for a long time. Haslam believes in them. It took years to find people he truly believes in.

Berry and Stefanski know Baker. They know him way better than anyone on this Board. They know what he is dealing with injury wise. They know his mental make-up. His leadership. They know if the team believes in him.

They also know what he brings to the field as a quarterback. His strenghts and weaknesses.

Berry knows who is out there. What the future drafts hold. He also knows everything regarding money.

In fact they know already if they are going to roll with Baker going forward.

If he is not the Browns franchise quarterback we will know soon enough.

What is a Franchise QB?

Simple: A QB that you can win a championship with - and that is both your Trent Dilfer's and Rich Gannon's as well as your Brett Favre's and John Elway's.

I think each person that plays poorly bares their share of the responsibility. This offense has scored less than 21 points in six of our games. Chubb is the third rated rusher in the NFL currently and that's even after missing playing time. Our OL is one of the top units in the league. The OBJ excuse has left the building. So while I won't blame 100% of the fault at Bakers's feet, a lot of it I do.

I understand just how convenient is it for you not to respond with your thoughts on the matter.

5

Yeah, I was counting the Falcons game which was a preseason game.

Sadly 4 out of 5 of them have been during the past 6 weeks.

Well you were lambasting all these theories about how posters had all these excuses for Baker but you didn't specifically state what you thought the issue was and whether it was all Baker or mostly Baker .... you keep writing on others perceived excuses for Baker instead of what you see the issues are. So it seemed a good place to start in qualifying your thoughts. I guess I am interested in what "A Lot Of It" is defined as ? That could cover everything from 60% up to 95%.

Personally I think Baker has played bad in a few games. I think he owns some of that. But I also see "a lot" of other influences - If you want to be specific with the % you blame Baker I'll do the same. If you want to leave in generalities the other things I define as 'a lot' of other influences include:

1. The injury.
2. The coaching, entire team preparedness and play calling.
3. Receivers dropping balls. Some mediocre Receivers not getting much separation. Routes and play design with receivers too close together.
4. Specifically with the Patriots game - KS being Pwned by Bill Belichik. I mean completely, totally, utterly.

I've said elsewhere - I think "the real" Baker is who we saw last year in the final 9 or 10 games of the season when PFF graded him the 3rd best (?) QB in the NFL over that stretch. I think we saw flashes of immense arm talent in his rookie year. I think he still has that. I think the periods he has played bad there have been significant things influencing his play in addition to Baker's own mental and physical struggles - Kitchens year. KS introduction and retooling few games last year. This year with a torn Labarum .... Guys that complete 20 or 21 passes in a row to comeback and win a game in the NFL. do not do it by accident, and there is more to the team's struggles than the QB.

Seahawks, Steelers have scored under 21 points 5 times....
Chiefs, Chargers, Falcons have scored under 21 points 4 times...
Ravens, Cowboys, Packers, Rams, Cardinals 3 times...

1. The injury seems legit until you factor in we put up 41 points the week before. Roller coaster Baker doesn't seem to fit with the injury theory as to Bad Baker.

2. We score well? Good coaches, preparedness and play calling. We flop? Bad coaches and play calling and poor preparedness.

3. Once again, these are the very same WR's we had in the Cincy game. Every QB has WR's who drop passes. One week people claim they're good. Until we don't put up points. Then they're bad. I guess we aren't better without OBJ?

4. Well that explains one of the past four out of five games we've scored less than 21 points.

You can take a slice of any QB who has had any success and say "that's who they are". Or you can look at where they actually are now. Who they are now is who they are. You're speaking in terms of "who he was". There have been games since the torn labrum where we have lit up the scoreboard. If that's really the issue and we can't score, why in the hell is he still on the field?

I've never questioned Baker's physical abilities. What I think we're seeing is the lack of ability to consistently be in the mental frame of mind to translate that ability to the field of play. Sometimes I just don't think he can overcome his brain to perform to his physical ability.

So the teams atop the NFL can score. Those with mediocre records have trouble scoring consistently. That's pretty much what I expected.

I'm sure the 99 yard INT return, the 70 yard run, and the 65 yard pass had a lot to do with us getting to 41, which involved 1 throw from Baker... Baker only threw the ball 21 times for 220 yards or so and he faced very little pressure.. it wasn't like he was the driver in us scoring 41 points. We forced turnovers, turned them into points, our defense got off the field and gave us opportunities.. If nothing else, the rest of the team played the perfect game to protect Baker's shoulder from being a factor. The Bengals game wasn't the indication that Baker is great any more than the Patriots game is the indication that he has to go.

Sometimes.... that can be a big part of it.

The only game I put at the feet of the WRs as a major contributor in us losing is the Steelers game... they had much more than the occasional drop, and some that were extremely costly at very important moments. But in the Bengals game, DPJ got open on the deep route for the big score against Cincy... other than that one catch for 60 yards, DPJ had 1 for 26, Schwartz had 1 for 15, Landry had 3 for 11... that was the extent of the involvement of our WRs..

Baker tore his labrum in week 2.. since then...
19 of 31 for 246 yards (scored 26)
15 of 33 for 155 yards (scored 14)
23 of 32 for 305 yards (scored 42)
19 of 28 for 234 yards (scored 14)
20 of 31 for 225 yards (scored 10)
14 of 21 for 218 yards (scored 41)
11 of 21 for 73 yards (scored 7)

You can reach whatever conclusion you want about it, they aren't asking him to do a lot... the true outlier in his stats is that the Patriots game is an anomaly... and that Belichick basically owned Stefanski on both sides of the ball...

Can't quite say that YET, I looked at this last night. (In a new light, taking a different perspective after the loss to the Patriots.

Here's how you play the game, You don't want to lose to AFC teams, (chiefs, chargers, now Pats) because you go behind in so many tie breakers, But, and, part of the game is when you lose a non division AFC game and fall behind that team, (if you shove them UP, into their divisions winner category, then it doesn't hurt you, because somebody has to win those other 3 divisisions your team is not in, and those 3 spots, your team was never eligible for anyway. (Browns can't win the AFC east, AFC South, or AFC West, because they are in the AFC North.)
So. IF!!! I switched, from assuming the Bills would win the East, (titans, ? and Ravens) as one may have done for the past several weeks and look at ways, the Patriots could win the East, and the BILLs could lose 4 future to finish with 8 losses.

Then the prospects, of giving teams the Browns had not beat, 8 losses total, Finding a way for the Browns to end with only 7 losses
going team by team through the 16 AFC teams,
If we hope the Raiders have fallen apart because they no longer have Gruden as a coach, and the Browns can find a way.
If The Bills somehow lose 8 having 3 now with 8 games to go so 3-5. (But even so, ... the bills lost to the Steelers so if the Browns split with the steelers, and the Bills haven't played the Patriots, so if the Patriots sweep the bills, , browns and them beat the Texans, sure the bills beat the chiefs, but if they lost to , whatever. the Bills would be neck and neck.
If the Titans win out, fine,
If the Colts go 4 and 3, starting by beating the Bills this week, in their final 7 and end with 8 losses, those 3 losses coming to the Buccaneers, Patriots and Raiders.
(Basically nothing wrong if the Buccaneers, and Patriots win out, and Titans wouldn't hurt either, let them win out.) that would give the Colts 8 losses.

If the Browns, Finish 10-7, by, Beating Detroit,
Splitting with Baltimore, or Sweeping Baltimore to get to 11-6, sure,
BEAT the RAiders, who are coachless, and let the Chargers win out to take that division won't hurt there.

The Chiefs, already have 4 losses. SO! if the Cowboys beat the Chiefs this week, (Go cowboys,) that's 5,
and if the Broncos, Sweep the Chiefs, but don't win any others because they haven't played yet, The Browns already BEAT the Broncos so they'd have a same record advantage over the Broncos,
but that would give the Chiefs 8 losses. The Raiders can Beat, or tie the Bengals this week, then fall apart (they already beat the steelers in week 2, and the ravens, iirc.)(thank you them)
And the Browns are going to beat the Raiders when they play.

Then, the Browns can do whatever vs. the Packers, (Browns are going to win, but it won't be necessary)
Because the next week,
the Browns are going to Beat the Steelers on MNF,
Then Beat the Bengals AT HOME in the final game of the regular season.

Browns 10-7
Bengals 10-7 (Browns swept them so (bye bye bad guys) (out of all considerations at start by 3rd place in division rule)
Steelers 9-7-1. Ravens win the division, Browns get the First Wild card.

Titans win a division you can't, win out who cares
Patriots (not bills) win a division you can't who cares
Bills 8 losses, Or, (there are two other wild card spots you can shove them into one.
Chiefs 8 losses, or, shove them into a wild card spot.

Raiders 8 losses
Broncos 10-7 but the Browns beat them head to head, (sai-ya-nora, amigo!)
LA Chargers win their division you can' t so who cares,

Dolphins, Jets, Jags and Texans , 8+ losses. Colts 8 losses.
Browns would make the playoffs!!!

Titans bye, probably, Browns at Ravens, or Browns at Chargers, or Browns at Patriots for the first playoff game.

What it takes, This is the Browns schedule that remains. Browns now are , 5-5, (3-4 in the afc,) (1-1 in the division)
Detroit win by 10+
At Baltimore win by 10+
--Bye week--
Baltimore, win by 10+
Raiders, (a must win) win by 10+
at Packers, Christmas day Win!
At Steelers Monday Night Football, win by 10+
Cincinnati. win by 10+
Wild card games Win (with Chubb back!)
Divisional games win
Conference championship games Win
--Media week-- (take pictures, give interviews)
Super Bowl Win by a Ton!!!

Parade. Show em all !!!

Thanks, I needed that😁. That is quite a mountain to climb!

Dak, as of today, is the best QB in the league.

Drafting 26th in his 3 year.

Drafting 26th in his 3 year.

Kenny stabler Hof coach 3 Hof wide receivers.
Ben Roethlisberger Hof head coach Hof defensive coordinator
Manning Hof head coach Hof running back Hof wide receiver
Get the point
I live in Wyoming have seen John Elways when he was playing Osu to a stand still John elway did not win a super bowl till he had shanahan as a coach.
The point is those players had a lot more around them
How good is baker if we draft Cedee lamb and Bateman and we hired Bruce Ariens

This was one of the biggest head scratchers for me when Arians was openly campaigning for the Browns job and we didn't even talk to him.. Then he goes and wins a super bowl. Arians/Bowles looks alot better than what we have if the plan was to win now. Now we are stuck hoping this group pans out quick enough before we have to break it down again because of cap

Watched the game last night, your list got a little shorter.

Crazy because Ryan was lights out for weeks leading up to that Cowboy game and then had two lemons in a row.

Which I believe is a big part of the problem... we microanalyze Baker because most of us watch every game, we rewatch it, we look at the stats and the post-game interviews... we don't do that with anybody else. We grade their body of work..... opinions on Baker go up and down like an EKG with every game, heck, every drive and every throw being analyzed and criticized.

Baker also doesn’t have the body of work as someone like Matt Ryan. Ryan is a former MVP who has been money in the bank for 14 years.

Considering the lack of scoring in so many games this season I don't believe that's true of most people here. After watching Browns fans post for so many years it seems more often than not as fans we overvalue our players simply because they wear a Browns uniform and objectivity is often lacking.

One of the Berry’s worst maneuver was not making a offer when Mayfield had put us in the playoffs with no defense.
They could be in a corner if next year Mayfield balls out gets us to the playoffs
His salary demands are 60,000,000 per year when last year we could have gotten Mayfield for a average of 37,500,000

Matt Ryan has more sub .500 record years than he does playoff appearances.

He is arguably most famous for blowing the biggest lead in super bowl history... when he blew a 25 point lead in a quarter and a half... during which he had 4 possessions, where he picked up 2 first downs and fumbled once.

I thought we all had moved past win percentage bring a QB stat? Also, are we having revisionist history about that Super Bowl? At the time Kyle Shanahan took a lot of heat and has since said he made the wrong play calls in the second half.

Stefanski says after every bad game that it's on him... hasn't stopped the criticism of Baker.

Right. There is coach speak and what we all see happening on the field. Shanahan was calling pass plays up 25.

Yeah, throwing your players under the bus would be a much better decision on his part.

So then poor play calling can make a QB look bad?

It wasn't calling pass plays up 25 that was the problem, they ran the ball and some of their pass plays worked well... it was a couple instances where on 3rd and short, he called a pass play and Ryan got sacked, one resulted in a fumble... what other coach do we know that has a habit of going empty backfield and straight drop back on 3rd and short and then watching their QB get sacked?

Is he up 25?

There are stupid play calls at all points of the game that kill drives and prevent points.

You think Mayfield's value has gone up since the end of last year?

Not trying to run the clock out up big with Brady and Belichick on the other sideline is very different than anything Stefanski has ever done. Shanahan has talked about this on the record very recently.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...M2UtZGVkMC0xMWViLWEyMzEtNGIzMWM1ODNiNDk1

Either way. If I can sign up for Matt Ryan’s career as a Browns fan I’m taking it every time.

He was speaking hypothetically of what could happen at the end of his 5th year if he gets healthy and plays much more consistent.

We can only dream that we would be able to pay Baker that much.

Just think, if we were in the position most everyone on this board thought we would be at this time, we would already have to pay Baker a boat load no questions asked. But that's not where we are.

Assuming Baker starts on his 5th year option.. if the Browns decide to go a different direction after then we have 2 years of Stefanski under contract to do something else to see if Baker really was the problem.

Yeah, we should go through a few more HC's. That should solve everything. Sadly, HC's aren't throwing the ball.

Therefore, they are above blame.

Certainly not totally blameless. But unless you think the HC is telling the QB he's not allowed to throw to an open WR if he's more than 10 yards downfield, with our OL I think there's a limit you can blame on the HC.

And the wheel keeps on turning, The Haslams find someone to blame, other than themselves and slowly rip everything up and start another 5 year plan with a new QB followed by a new HC and new coaching staff.

Those of you thinking that Jimma doesn't wear RABBIT EARS, think again. If the local and national talking heads are left to go unchallenged, giving their opinions, Jimma will lend them his ears!

And just think, less than ten months ago everyone was giving him credit for getting it right this time. Ah how the direction of the wind keeps changing.

[/color]

Originally Posted by PitDAWG

And just think, less than ten months ago everyone was giving him credit for getting it right this time. Ah how the direction of the wind keeps changing.

[color:#FFFFCC]Pit...I certainly agree, WHAT THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO STFANSKI'S PLAY CALLING?

There is no doubt that Stefanski should give up the playcalling duties to Alex Van Pelt...the real Browns OC.

Well your assertion seems to be that Baker can only succeed in a play action offense so maybe the problem is Stefanski needs a more well rounded QB. I don't know for sure.

pit...so, the offense that won the Browns 11 games in 2020, including THE BROWNS FIRST PLAYOFFS WIN SINCE 1995 WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR "STEFANSKI"...RIGHT?

Yes, being totally predictable on offense year in and year out sounds like a great long term plan.

How is that working out for Stefanski?...removinging the PLAY-ACTION PASS from this offensive game plan?

SOME HATE TO ADMIT IT...BUT STEFANSKI IS NOT AN EXPIRENCED OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR.

It is time that for the Browns "ARROGANT and POWER HUNGRY HC" to admit, HE IS NOT THE BEST OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR ON THE BROWNS COACHING STAFF !!!!!!!!!!!

When did he "remove it"? You mean we don't use it as much as we used to because it was getting predictable? Hopefully Baker will become proficient enough not to be one dimensional QB since that's what you seem to be suggesting here.

Pittt...which QB in the NFL is better than Mayfield at carrying out the run-fake option ?

So, if your the OC and you have a QB who among "the very best" at selling the run fake option, do you remove that weapon from your offense and change to a "pass happy" offense???

If you are an "INEXPERIENCED OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR" like Stefanski, YOU DO !!


STEFANSKI IS NOT THE BEST OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR ON THE BROWNS COACHING STAFF...pit, you know it and so do I.

Once agian, who "removed it" from the offense? Are you saying we never run it?

pit...you already know the answer...who took the run/play option out of the offense...how about MR PANIC when behind, THE BROWNS ONLY OC, KEVIN STEFANSKI !!

BTW, once Van Pelt realizes that the only reason Haslam and front office boys keep him around is to have SOMEONE TO BLAME when offense fails to produce...Van Pelt will kiss Stefanski and the rest of this Haslam bunch, GOOD BYE.

When Arians was in Cleveland as the OC. He was crucified weekly as the worst playcaller.

Injuries play a huge role in the NFL.

During OTA's and camp the optimism was off the charts.

We were coming of the first playoff win since Davy Crockett was on TV.

We are going to have the same coaching staff Two Years in a Row. Odell is coming back ready to roar.
Same OL. Brand new secondary. Added pass rushers. Let's Go.

We have not started the proposed starters all year. Odell left town. Who replaced him? Schwartz?

The players missing in games? Odell, Jarvis, Baker, Chubb, Wills, Conklin, Takk, Ward, Newsome, Delpit, JOK, Hubbard, DPJ, Hill.

Injuries hurt every team. We are not alone. Next man up is expected to step in and be good enough.

However, our depth at receiver in not good. Jarvis is not close to 100%.

Higgins is not a deep threat. Jarvis is not a deep threat. Schwartz is not a receiver yet. DPJ is hurt and is still a very young guy.

We are not a spread offense. We are based upon the run. Then play action off the run. The route trees are based upon timing.

Timed to the drop steps of the qb. If receivers are thrown off the timing. The qb ends holding the ball. If the receivers don't get open. The qb is left to wait for someone to come back on a scramble route. Baker's mobility is decent when healthy. He is now limited.

Complementary football is contributions from all phases. The Bengal game.

We are not good enough to win without complementary football. We are not going to comeback in a game throwing the ball.

Our formula is get the lead with a sustained balanced attack. And grind opponents down on offense while playing good defense and winning the turnover battle.

When we play that brand of football. We are a good team. Baker is plenty good enough.

If we were built to throw the ball and spread it out. Baker could do that with the right receivers.

Right now we have a team based upon one dimension and we do not have the capacity to change mid-season.

This year through ten games we have 78 play action pass attempts amid our 294 pass attempts. An average of 7.8 play action passes per game. About 26% of our passes have been play action passes.

Last year through sixteen games we had 128 play action pass attempts amid our 501 passing attempts. An average of 8 play action passes per game. About 25% of our passes were play action passes.

What was your point again?

crf...if it was only about "how many" play-action plays the Browns run, you 'might' have a leg to stand on...!

Just as important if not "more important" is when the play-action is called. The offense has to be able to "sell" the idea that the Browns offense is running the ball on a play-action fake in order to insure the pass play will succeed. Simply calling more play-action passes doesn't mean that Stefanski is utilizing the play-action fake at a time that insures a pass completion.

Those of you who don't want to believe me when I criticize Stefanski for abandoning the run when behind...TYPE INTO YOUR SEARCH..."Browns Stefanski abandons the run when his team is behind..."...and READ !

If Stefanski has developed a tendency to abandon the run when behind...HOW FREAKEN EFFECTIVE IS A RUN/PASS FAKE GOING TO BE?

Defenses will simply ignore the Browns run/pay fake and rush the passer, knowing that Stefanski is not going to run the ball regardless of a run/play option.

AGAIN...TYPE INTO YOUR SEARCH..."Browns Stefanski abandons the run when his team is behind..."...and READ !

This makes our QB a sitting duck for blitzing defenses...

Type “establish the run play action” and read.

Protecting the QB is high on Stefanski’s list right now.

If Baker was not part of the walking wounded, we would see more play action and rollouts.

woofer...you sir...NAILED IT...!!

Protecting your "franchise QB" should be a high priority for the Browns...but the Browns have FAILED to do so...

Might be the reason Mayfield is so busted up..failure to protect the QB.

The year we drafted Baker I did more quarterback research than I have ever done. We had the first pick and we were going to pick a quarterback.

I spent months watching tape endlessly of the top guys. I have to admit Darnold was my first choice. But it was no slam dunk.

Baker really intriqued me. I liked the form of Josh Rosen throwing the ball but I didn't like him as a leader.

Honestly I thought Lamar would never make it as a passer. His talent as a runner was clear. I give him major credit for his improvement as a passer.

The guy who I thought had a long way to go in development was Allen. But I also felt he had the biggest upside of any player in the that draft.

His physical skill set was tops. He was tough as nails. He had that Jim Kelly physicality. His arm was incredible. He also showed he could be a leader.

The big problem with him was decision making. That of all things in the evaluation of quarterback can define the risk of failure or success. He would not give up on plays and he would try to play hero ball. Most of the time it would result in turnovers.

I thought he could be one of those guys who would be rushed into playing and could fall on his face. The Bills to their credit really worked with him. They stuck with him. He made mistakes in bunches. But he kept improving. He made a huge leap in year three. He still on occasion reverts back to old bad habits. But then he recovers.

The Bills payed him. They made him a franchise quarterback.

Interestingly, Mel Kiper thought the Browns should go all in on him. Usually I don't put much into Mel's take. He said Allen was a gamble but the Browns should roll the dice and go all in.

I remember the Board. Nobody wanted him.

crf nailed you. That's why you avoided like the plague my question about who stopped using the play action pass. It's because we use it about the exact same amount we did last year. Your claim was bogus.

Fractured shoulder bone
Torn labrum
Knee contusion
Some sort of foot injury....

I'd be an invalid. And yet he's one of only 32 human beings in the world that will be starting as an NFL quarterback this weekend.

Oh, and he spends 99% of his time filming commercials...gotta factor that in, lol.

The Browns currently have the best pass block win rate in the league. The "pass block win rate metric conveys the rate linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer."

(https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...g-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings)

Browns QB also have among the most time to throw at 2.84 seconds per pass.

That's crazy, I would have never guessed we would be leading the league as uncomfortable as Baker has looked.

Then Why the **** is he not on Injured Reserve where he belongs!

Baker has been Hit about 60 times starting from the Bears game debacle. Stuff accumulates.

( Wherever Chris Hubbard went, the good offensive play went....)

Mayfield has been sacked as many times in just 9 games as he was the entire 2020 regular season...26.

Mayfield's 26 sacks rank him with the 4th highest sack numbers of all starting QBs.

So our QB gets sacked a bunch despite our offensive line being great at pass blocking? Crazy.

Your offensive line being great at pass blocking is a concept ever changing to the most recent game.

How many linemen does it take to make up a NFL OLINE?....3 or 4 or 5?

Anyone bother to click the link being cited as evidence that Mayfield has had great pass blocking this season?

Click the link provided by those looking to crap on Mayfield

LINK



I clicked the link and found out that cfs seems to believe that the Browns OLine is made up of just our 2 OGs and the Center.

Studying the graphs from cfs's link, on the strength of the performances of Bitonio, Tretter and Teller, cfr tries to make the claim that the Browns entire OLine has given Mayfield GREAT PASS BLOCKING this season.

...they might play Pro Football with just 3 Offensive linemen in Calif....but here in Ohio, it takes 5 OLinemen to make up a NFL offensive line.

No doubt that the Browns 3 interior linemen have played up to expectations most of the time...but the Browns offensive tackles are having poor seasons when it comes to pass protection.

The Browns main pass protection issues originate at the OT positions.

Yeah, I figured Allen was one concussion away from drooling into his soup. So far he has proven everybody wrong.

Allen was far and away my top pick, I touted him here for months. Everyone that chirped with the "accuracy" bs (like it was impossible to change), I countered with the fact that I would gladly give away those 3 passes a game for someone that can make every throw, from every angle, and runs like Gronk in the open field.

BTW, Bird, aren't you talking about Rosen?

What do numbers tell us?

Some want us to believe that Mayfield is simply complaining over nothing when Mayfield said he is beat up with by the hits he's endured .







.... it might have hurt..NO, it obviously did hurt.

But that hit won't even show up in any stat column! It was not a sack because Mayfield got the ball out of his hand before the hit occurred. When it comes to grading the Browns lineman who nearly got his QB killed by missing his block...the numbers won't count that missed assignment by Hance, either.

I knew this was a mistake.

franchise qb is one that gets you into the playoffs. Baker has dominated the bengals, beats the steelers. Our defense gives up 30 or 40 points a game. Our 3rd down on defense can be as bad as 50%

Dan Marino went to one superbowl. Franchise qb.

Do we really want to guess on another draft at qb?

I`m not thinking they are gonna give him top qb money. So i think the point is moot

My mistake Fate. I don't remember everyone's take but the majority did not believe Allen to be the right pick.

Whatever, people's take is about Baker. One fact stands true. Finding a franchise quaterback is really hard to do.

The chance of getting a top ten type guy through a trade or free agency. Not going to happen most likely.

The draft? Please really look at those odds. Where you draft? How long it takes to find out?( 3 years or more) It is almost a ten year search to find a guy to lead a team for ten plus years.

The Browns are the poster team for trying to find a quarterback.

IMO I would take my chances with Baker as is and his chances of improving over finding "the man."

Baker is a driven player. He is tough on himself. He is competitive as you can get. He is a leader. He plays to win and for his teammates.

He may not have the full compliment of skills. But IMO he has enough to win with a good team around him.

Even if you are considered the best quarterback in football. You are still dependent upon the players around you.

You need a good quarterback no doubt. But you also need a good team to win a Super Bowl.

I think Baker will play next year on the 5th year of his contract. There will be no contract offer in the off season or it will be very low and Mayfield will not accept. I think he's going to be upset about this but will put his head down and play. I believe he really feels that his contributions extend beyond his play on the field. He consistently talks about how he has helped change the culture. These are shots at the organization ... "move on from me at your own peril". I think with no contract he could even want to move on to another team. I think he feels extremely slighted by the organization.

Personally, I think Mayfield is a little soft mentally. Anyone who pays attention and responds to social media as much as he does is a little insecure. I believe the lack of a contract this year has affected his play as much as the injuries have. Instead of "I'll prove it to them" he kind of goes into a shell because he starts doubting himself.

This season's failures thus far are equal parts Stefanski (just did not see this one coming; this is almost more disappointing than Baker), Woods, and Baker. Each get a third of the pie. I could go Woods 40%, Baker and Stefanski 30%. We are in trouble with Woods. His presser this week was nothing short of cringeworthy. Guy is absolutely lost and it wouldn't be a surprise if his players didn't respect him.

I'm still holding out hope the team can go on a little bit of a run here starting today, but what a disappointing season.

I don't think the culture has been changed at all. I felt at the end of last year it was starting to but after what we've seen this year definitely not.

J/C on the Josh Allen talk... Allen went to a team in 2018 that didn't fire their coach 8 weeks into the season..Then had a DC become interim HC...Then the following year had another new HC in Freddie Kithchens...Then again the following year a new GM and HC...

Allen was put into a situation to succeed in Buffalo.. never knowing the answer to this...but how would he have fared through all that crap ?

I love how you and a few others call bringing up legitimate concerns about Mayfield "trying to crap on Mayfield"

With all of your wrangling, there is no argument he has been given the most time in the pocket. Now if you want to blame that on our WR's not getting open, go ahead. Maybe you can make that argument. The argument could also be made he's become gun shy and is not being decisive. As some have pointed out he keeps double clutching the ball and holding it. When he used to take a three or five step drop and let the ball go. Why is that happening? I have no idea. However, trying to say, "Yeah but even though he's been given the most time to throw the ball, "whatabout".

We've seen good Baker and we've seen bad Baker. Which one of these two he really is, is an unknown at this time. Maybe both. You call that crapping on him. It's hard to believe anyone would even make that up. Yet here you are.....

With Allen much of the talk was he was still very raw. His progress to becoming a good NFL QB was more of a project. That creates a bigger gamble. Someone decided to take that gamble and it appears to be paying off. But it could just as easily turned out the other way.

CFR...Let's just hope all 5 of the Browns OLine are dedicated to doing all they can to WIN today...be it 'protecting' the QB or opening holes for our RBs...

...JUST WIN...!

I coulda sworn it was Allen that had a history of concussions. But then again I do suffer from c.r.a.f.t. Can’t Remember a Freaking thing.

A FQB doesn’t post a 6QBR against the Lions at home

He does when he has 5 injured body parts.

j/c:

Not sure what to make of this stat just yet...

300 yard passing games from Baker:

10/58

How many of those games did the Browns have 150 yards rushing?

If you are running for 150, chances are you are not going to be passing for 300.

You asked me once, when I was critical of Stefanski, if I thought he just forgot things he used to know and do... well I would ask you the same question, we've all seen Baker look great, we've seen him throw darts 20-30 yards downfield, do you think he just forgot how to do that? Or do you think something else might be at work here?

I mean it wasn't and isn't that we have seen Baker throw an occasional good pass. When Baker has looked good he's looked phenomenal. I said elsewhere - you don't complete 20 or 21 pass in a row in the NFL without being very, very good not matter who you are facing. And to your point - you can't be that good and then "forget" how to throw the ball.

Baker has games where he can do no wrong, and then he has the ability to follow that up with clunker games where you can count the on-time-on-target throws on one hand. I would think the foot injury would make it hard to keep your accuracy dialed in, especially for someone that didn't exactly have the best footwork to begin with, but the injury argument begins to fall apart when you realize that he's always had this Jekyl-Hyde thing to his game, when he's off he tends to throw high and behind, and that a foot injury probably doesn't affect decision-making (throwing into double-coverage).

Here's my thought process on the matter. When you're winning it's much easier to mentally prepare, be positive and produce. Momentum is working in your direction which makes it far easier mentally to perform. When things start going sideways, it makes those conditions much tougher. I don't think it's so much a question of Baker suddenly losing his physical talent or ability. I think now that his back is up against the wall it makes it far tougher to translate those things to the field of play from a mental standpoint.

It was shown that we are using play action almost exactly the same percentage as we did last year. We have one of the best OL's. Our running game is one of the tops in the league. Those factors haven't really changed. We have both the team doctors and Baker saying he is able to and ready to play. So unless they're all lying to us I think people are using that more as an excuse than the reality. Unless of course as I said you think baker, the team doctors and the coaching staff are all getting it wrong.

I saw the bad decision making yesterday. I saw throws that were totally inaccurate. I saw Baker walk off the field refusing to shake the opponents hands. As I said, unless Baker, the coaches and the team doctors are lying through their teeth, there's something much deeper going in here "with Baker".

When the going gets tough, the tough get going. And I'm not talking about physical toughness. So far I'm not seeing this going anywhere now that things have gotten tough.

You just berated a poster in the other thread for posting an opinion that Baker would be on disability if he was a blue collar worker - obviously an opinion that's somewhat of an exaggeration to be sure. But here you are with your own wild opinion based on nothing but your own speculation !

I don't know how badly Baker is banged up. He certainly got banged up further during the game. I don't know what is up with Baker and the team. But based on MANY players all calling out the coaching staff last week ... it does not seem isolated to Baker.

Keep in mind who you are replying to.

While I have to keep in mind I have a stalker who is even willing to try to trash the pure football forum in his quest to start BS.

And I never said it was "all on Baker". But let me ask you this. Do you think passing for one pass over 50% the last two weeks is the fault of the coaching staff? Do you honestly believe Bakers inaccuracy we've seen lately is the fault of the coaching staff? And do you honestly believe that Baker is showing this inaccuracy all week during practice, showing how his injuries are hindering his ability to pay QB and the coaching staff is still trotting him out there on the field every Sunday as our starter?

You see, those are all the things one would have to believe in order to buy into what you seem to be selling here.

That's not some wild opinion based on speculation.

To what then, do you attribute the fact that he has 6 games with completion % over 65% (3 of them being over 70%)? And then the last two have been bad with another horrible one mixed in earlier against the Vikings?

That for some reason he is lacking in consistency. Now I actually addressed your question, would you mind addressing the rest of mine? I'll oimit to just one....

Do you think the inaccuracy we are seeing on Sundays the same thing the coaching staff is seeing during the week in practice and are making the decision to start Baker anyway?

Surprisingly you didn't answer a question other than to say nothing while trying to sound like you said something.

Specifically, what is the cause of the inconsistency?

That's not actually an answer, it doesn't really say anything.. "for some reason" isn't an answer.

I, on the other hand, did answer your question, but I'll summarize here. I hope they aren't seeing Baker as wildly inaccurate and starting him anyway, if they are, it's 100% on Stefanski.. then I explained in detail how why I think it's possible to look much more accurate in practice than you do in the game, especially if you are injured.

So you expect me to try and diagnose why a QB can't seem to translate his physical ability onto the field of play? Of why somehow what he shows on the practice field doesn't show up on game day? I know that's above my pay grade and I'm pretty sure it's above yours too. But that's exactly what we're seeing.

Since I'm not a mental heath expert I can't actually diagnose it. But here's what I'm seeing. It's obvious that Baker has more talent that what he is displaying now. It's obvious his accuracy is way off. It would seem logical to conclude that this isn't what the coaching staff is seeing all week in practice or he wouldn't be starting. So what we are seeing is the lack of ability to translate his talent onto the field of play on game day.

BOTH y'all need a time out! Or just get a room already...

That was in NO WAY serious arch. [/CRAYON]