DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum THE BROWNS OLINE...

and.....

... and if you're taking injuries into account, I'd probably agree with them.

Well, THAT SUCKS...

I made a several paragraph post on this subject OLINE, hit enter and all that the board server posts are two line of my post.

Note to self...don't trust the "DT REPLY"... TO WORK PROPERLY...cause it does screwup at times.


I'll rewrite my post again in an email then copy and past to DT so I don't loose my info.

Ranked #4 by PFF.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021

Now twist away.

Here is the job of the OL in pass protection. To give the QB time to throw the ball. As you were shown only a few days ago, our OL has been giving Baker ample time compared to other OL's in the NFL. They are doing their job. So I guess if you wish to know beyond that why Baker can't seem to pass the ball or throw it away given ample time, which he is getting, you find someone who isn't doing their job to blame.

Sacks allowed is a measure of the Oline, QB as well as extra blockers. IIRC, the Browns Oline is best at pass-block win rate, which is holding their pass blocks for a certain amount of time.

So if the Oline is really good at holding their blocks for the specified amount of time, but the offense is still taking sacks.... I'll let you put 2 and 2 together.

Obviously those sacks are Mayfield's fault.

Calculation of a lot of PFF grades seem a little goofy... especially overall team grades. No disclosure on their site on how those team grades are calculated. On one hand they say "Jedrick Wills Jr. and injuries have been the things eating into the quality of this unit. The Browns have three tackles with 100 or more snaps who each have a sub-60.6 PFF grade." So those grades (three of them) would rank among the worst of the worst in the top ten for any team's given worst single player. That doesn't make much sense if we are being ranked 4th. Maybe they only consider starters in overall team grades?

Somehow KC, after 11 full weeks of football, jumped 6 spots this week to #2... after a mediocre win. That doesn't seem possible.

Pit, even your article here states:

He (Teller) now boasts a 90.8 PFF run-blocking grade and has allowed 12 total pressures across nine games. Jedrick Wills Jr. and injuries have been the things eating into the quality of this unit. The Browns have three tackles with 100 or more snaps who each have a sub-60.6 PFF grade.

So note they quote his run blocking grade... the Browns have 3 tackles with a rating under 60.6... wanna guess where most pass rush comes from? It comes from the edges, against the tackles. They even call Wills out by name as something holding this OL back, he's the left tackle...

When I first saw mac's post, I thought I knew where he was going with it but wanted to let him finish before I commented... our offensive line is much better at run blocking than it is at pass protecting.. I don't think it's "bad" at pass blocking, but it's not nearly as good as it is at run blocking.. and if you run for 150 yards per game, the talking heads are going to sing the praises of your OL... and our OL deserves most of the praise they get but they are far from dominant as a pass blocking unit.

To both you and DC. The facts have been shown that our pass blocking is fine based on Bakers clean time in the pocket. It has been shown that our OL gives Baker ample time. Oober has shown that our pass block win rate is high. So why you are actually trying to jump on ship with a false premise seems to hold no logic.

And fate, if you give your QB ample time in the pocket, who do you think is at fault for that high sack count? Part of the QB's decision making process is the choice whether to throw it away or eat it.

LONGEST AVERAGE TIME IN A CLEAN POCKET SINCE 2020
Player Average time in clean pocket per dropback
Baker Mayfield 2.5 seconds
Cam Newton 2.5 seconds
Lamar Jackson 2.4 seconds

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-clevel...-mayfield-injury-contract-extension-2021

This was as of October 28th. So unless you think PFF has a broken stop watch......

If you can find anything that includes the past month I'll be happy to see it.

Obviously a lot of that fault would be on the QB, or at least it would be an easy assumption to make. No argument there.

My point is that PFF grades aren't always clear indicators of exactly what's wrong as much as they are ancillary statistical observations.

Quick point using an imaginary illustration:

Joey Goat is the best QB in the NFL. His team went 20-0 last year and won the Superbowl. He plays exclusively out of the shotgun and unloads the ball in under one second. He's the greatest player ever on the greatest team ever...

Where would PFF rate his OL given time in a clean pocket? Have to be about the worst in the history of the NFL, wouldn't it??

I'm sure we can find examples of where a statistic would be unable to tell the story and I think you made an excellent example if it were possible for a QB to unload the ball in one second on a regular basis. Although we both know that's not possible.

But in this case that does not apply. I would simply ask you to look at the topic, what the topic was predicated on and who mac has been trying to blame for the sacks. I think the time Baker has had in the pocket combined with the Browns Oline having best at pass-block win rate which oober posted shows that's nothing but a false narrative.

j/c...

Some charts from an analytics nerd....

 https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/11/20/browns-blocking-brutal-baker-mayfield/




Browns pass blocking is brutal and Baker Mayfield may not survive


by Elliot Kennel2 days ago Follow @ebkennel



Baker Mayfield is getting sacked a rate comparable to Justin FIelds and Zach Wilson.


It’s time to quit saying nice things about the Cleveland Browns offensive line. Partly due to injuries, players playing hurt, and others playing out of position, the team is going to get quarterback Baker Mayfield maimed or injured. He’s among the most sacked quarterbacks in the NFL.


The most sacked quarterback in the NFL is Justin Fields of the Chicago Bears, even though he got a late start due to coach Matt Nagy’s desire to make a playoff run with Andy Dalton. FIelds has gotten sacked at a frightening rate. His total number of sacks is 29, which is tied for the NFL league lead with Ryan Tannehill.


However, if you consider the ratio of pass attempts per sack (a derived stat by yours truly, using numbers from NFL.com), that probably tells us what we really want to know, namely, how many times can the quarterback put the ball in the air before he gets sacked?

It’s unlikely that he will make it to the end of the season should this continue.

No quarterback can be expected to have a good statistical year while taking 50 sacks per season, and most of the time, a sack rate like this is sufficient to land a quarterback on IR. Lamar Jackson might survive it because of his Asgardian heritage, but normal human quarterbacks wear down from that much mano y mano combat in the trenches.

Tannehill might also survive because he is a converted wide receiver. However, Mayfield, Fields, Zach Wilson, and Russell Wilson are taking too many hits.

Pro Bowl tackle Jack Conklin has been out with an injured elbow as well as a bad knee. Blake Hance has filled in. He has a future in the NFL – as a guard. The Browns want him on the team, but there’s a major difference between Pro Bowl Conklin and Hance subbing. Long-term, rookie James Hudson III should definitely step up and claim this job. Thus far, he is not able to beat out converted guard Hance, however.

Fields can throw about 6.4 times on average before he gets sacked. That makes it obviously impossible for him to do his job.

Player Snaps per Sack Pass att/sack Total Sacks

1. Justin Fields 16.2 6.4 29
2. Baker Mayfield 20.8 9.5 26
3. Zach Wilson 17.2 9.5 19
4. Russell Wilson 19.9 10.3 16
5. Davis Mills 19.4 10.5 20
6. Ryan Tannehill 24.2 10.9 29
7. Lamar Jackson 23.0 11.0 28
8. Joe Burrow 21.4 11.4 25
9. Teddy Bridgewater 22.7 11.9 27
10. Jacoby Brissett 20.4 12.5 15


Baker Mayfield is the second most frequently sacked quarterback in terms of pass attempts per sack. He is number six on the basis of total snaps per sack, given that he is in a run-first offense. He’s headed for a 52-sack season at this rate.



https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/11/20/browns-blocking-brutal-baker-mayfield/

https://www.quora.com/What-QB-holds-the-ball-the-longest

It's a year old, but Baker Mayfield, on average, holds the ball the longest of all NFL QBs.

You forgot to disable the BS filter.

jfan...I did click the BS filter...but you're still here...!

It's not Anthony Schwartz' fault.
It's- Whoever- made- the-decision-to draft- Anthony Schwartz's fault!!!

We established week 2 that pff numbers were stupid.

It could be that, one on one, 8 or 9 guys do real good on a play where the remaining two guys or one guy makes a big enough mistake, or just miss, to give up the sack, but, the group, the whole group gets the result.
stupid 1 man numbers, can say whatever, it's not golf, football is a team sport, with team wins and losses.

and the Browns are being dysfunctional going into the biggest weeks of the year, so far.

Baker Mayfield is the 2nd most sacked per snap Qb on the list.

Where is Case Keenum on the list.

4 sacks in 48 drop backs.

Does Windows 98 and AOL mail let you do that? Purp's site's backend might require certain things on your pc to make it work smoothly. Run updates, make sure you are not restricting JavaScript, make sure you have his site white listed for cookies or allow cookies, then delete cookies, and do a reboot. I'd bet that fixes it.

If I combine that with the above list post which said Baker can drop back 9.5 times per when he will be sacked.

4 sacks in 48 is not the same measurement but it sounds like 8.333 % by my calculator I think,
which means how many times per time is 8.33%.. 100% divided by 8.333% is right about 12.0048 times.

So Baker is at 9.5 drop backs = a sack.
And in a much smaller set of plays, Keenum is at 12. drop backs = a sack.

(so far this year, and I'll wait for someone to tell me I figured it wrong.)

How does info on a QB holding the ball not apply to sacks?

It does...just like pass catchers who run the wrong route or cannot get any separation.

Maybe he took issue with the link itself and not the fact that Baker holds the ball. Baker holding the ball too long has been a topic of discussion on here at least since the Freddie year, so I didn't think I was blowing anyone's mind by pointing that out in a thread about sacks, and didn't bother taking the time to pull the actual advanced stats.

Anecdotally, the vast majority of the sacks he's taken have been where he didn't know where to go with the ball or was trying to make something happen out of nothing (he held the ball for forever) vs the immediate sacks where someone just blows through the line.

I would want that claim to be revisited & re-checked, because I feel like most of the sacks this year have come pretty quickly in 3rd & Long situations where we've had longer, slower developing routes; especially since Conklin/Wills started missing games.

I wasn't trying to state a fact. That was my impression. I'd love to see an average time-to-sack type stat (time from snap to Baker on ground, on average) if they have that.

Additionally, I also wasn't differentiating between instances when Baker was holding the ball because of confusion, etc and when he was holding the ball on longer-developing plays because that's what the playcall asked for. This thread is about the Oline, so I thought that was kinda irrelevant.

Oh, yeah, I get that.... it was just that I had the opposite impression, lol, so I was thinking that it deserves a deeper dive, but I'm also way too lazy to actually do that deeper dive

PFF does track this, but I don't think I have access. The link below is exactly what we're talking about, but it's from 2012 (so completely useless).

https://www.pff.com/news/signature-stat-snapshot-time-to-throw

https://www.rotoballer.com/nfl-nextgen-stats-analysis-qb-passing-data/676128

This is probably the best I can do. About halfway down there's a graph of time-to-throw vs completion %. Baker is firmly in the bad side of TTT (and lol Kirk Cousins).

I remember at least 2 sacks - maybe 3 - that came on 4th and short when Stefanski tried to fool the defense with a pass, and Mayfield was almost instantly engulfed by a pass rush.

Saw a stat yesterday that was time to pressure, which I think is the better number because once under pressure, you start moving, running, scrambling, you aren't always still looking downfield anymore, so the extra second or 2 it takes them to catch up to you and get you to the ground is kind of irrelevant. Baker was at 2.4 seconds, which was fairly average, keeping in mind that almost all QBs were a 10th of a second or 2 one way or the other. But a 10th of a second or 2 is a lot in this instance.

Baker is great when he can plant his foot and hit his first read in rhythm, that's when he is at his best. But I would guess most QBs can say that. The deeper he has to go into his reads the more he seems to struggle making decisions, getting his footwork right, etc.

You seem to do really well at posting how many times Mayfield has been sacked. You just don't seem to be doing very well with why he is being sacked so much.

You would also have to say that the deeper he has to go in his reads the longer it takes, the more likely protection is breaking down, the more it becomes a scramble drill, the more likely it gets thrown away or becomes a sack, etc


If a defense has an idea of who the first read is based on personnel, they can make it harder on Baker even before the ball is snapped simply by making sure they take away who they think the first read is. Heck, take away whomever you think the primary TE is and the top WR that's on the field at any given time. It's not like we're running something mystical out there; this offense has TONS of film available on it here, in Minny, and elsewhere. The concepts are anything but new, defenses have a pretty solid idea of what we're trying to do. Our only advantage is being that we run & pass from the same looks & motions.