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Originally Posted by Dave
I don't care if they had 8 in the box, you have to run Chubb and Hunt - both premier RBs - more than 15 times. The running game often doesn't work early, but still takes a toll on the defense that doesn't become apparent until later in the game, when one of your premier RBs breaks one. You gotta stay with it.

And not only that - but at some point Chubb and Hunt are good enough that when they get that one opportunity they will rip it for 40+ yards or go all the way. Very frustrating.


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j/c...

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Since Week 5, #Browns offense ranks 24th in efficiency, 25th in expected points added, 19th in yards per play, 24th in third-down conversion rate and 26th in first downs per game.

https://twitter.com/Jake_Trotter/status/1465327123971903500

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I wasn't happy about the jester either... but what part about it was wrong? When I realized the reason why I was angry about that (even the Bengals had a non-zero number in that graphic), that's when I quieted down at the TV.


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In what world is it acceptable to have a defense hold a tough powerhouse Offense to 16 points only to have the offense Sputter and fail. But for sure the D came to win. They sacked Jackson, they intercepted Jackson.... They pretty much did their jobs.

You can blame the entire offense, they didn't execute well. Dropped passes, Poor line play didn't help.

That first drive looked decent, then Conklin goes down and the entire O goes down with him.

I will say that the TD to the Chief was a thing of beauty...


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In order to win big games against quality opponents; you must make the plays that are there.

If you do not; then you will lose.

First series after big gains to Jarvis; Baker makes a perfect throw to DPJ. He drops the pass. If he makes the catch it is first and goal to go at the ten yard line.

The end result a field goal is missed - no points.

First down throw to Felton. He looks for the hit and drops the pass.

Hooper fails consistently to make contested catches. He dropped two.

The Ravens have Justin Tucker. He wins close games. He doesn't miss.
=======================================================================

Game plan. Clearly the Ravens were prepared to stop the run game of the Browns.

What was the Browns plan to counter?

If they put 8 guys in the box; there must be open space somewhere. Why were there no seam routes in the center space in the Browns plans?

Or, why no adjustments when it became obvious what the Ravens where doing?

I wish I had an answer.

Four turnovers and the Browns score ten points.
===============================================

We are not good enough. We have players that are overrated. One is Jedrick Wills. He plays to high and gets beat in pass rush.

Andrew Berry is a good young GM. However, once Hubbard was gone. We had no backup tackle. Blake Hance is a second string guard playing out of position. He is a far cry from Conklin. Berry drafted Hudson. He has done nothing and looked over matched when he played. So, Hance was forced to play tackle. That
did not cut it.

Stefanski is a good young head coach. However, he still lacks experience. It was exposed in the loss to the Patriots.
Yesterday he was out coached again. Harbaugh has the experience and that should be expected. I am not condemning Stefanski. Just stating facts.

We are not good enough to make the playoffs. We have a good core of players. We are not a complete team.

When we beat the Lions I knew this season was over. Looking at the final six games after that win. In my heart I felt we would be lucky to win three.

Great expectations can be misleading. I felt for sure we would be a playoff team. Thought we had a good chance to run the table.

We are not what I thought we would be.

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Some of the comments on here crack me up. "Mayfield is afraid to throw." The dude has been changed into a game manager. Game managers don't take risks. Baker is not going to throw to guys who have not gotten separation. Watch the damn game - our receivers were never open. When Baker does throw he gets dropped passes - 5 by my count last night.

Now to Stefanski - when a team is putting 8 in the box to stop the run you have to make them pay by passing the ball. When you play 3 TE's all basically in the box or close to it you now have 10 defensive players in the box with 1 on 1 with your only WR. Your QB has no option for an audible and the TE's are now in such heavy traffic they couldn't get separation if they wanted to. Slants are out, hooks are out, screens are out and your QB now has about 2 secs to throw because it's a constant rush of 6 outmanning the o-line. A high school coach knows that to make the defense play honest you must spread the field and make them pay for putting 6 in the box. Putting only 1 WR on the field proved to the Ravens the Browns wouldn't spread to make them change. JOK can be a threat but he still has catching issues and is a waste on short must need routes and separation. Does Baker have some fault - absolutely but he's also running the scheme Stefanski has instilled which is a game manager QB. If you're going to scheme a run heavy offense, you better be able to keep the defense honest by passing and making them pay if they cheat on the run. Hey dummy, you can't do that by lining up your offense that allows the defense to have 10 in the box.

The Browns are 23rd in the league in pass attempts with 360. That's currently 110 less pass attempts than Tampa Bay and the Bucs have only played 11 games. Now it's true that the Browns are 2nd in rushing but what happens when you can't run? The Browns are 14th in the league in net yards per pass attempt yet they won't throw to keep the defense honest. Add to that fact that only Las Vegas and Dallas have been penalized more than the Browns and you have a formula to lose.

I go back to the Arizona game that was the most telling game as to what Stefanski's scheme is in reality. When your losing 20-0 five minutes into the 2nd quarter and you only throw 19 times from that point forward you have sent a clear message to the league that your QB will not be throwing. Remember, the Browns lost that game 34-14 and were never in the game or a threat to be competitive. Since that game, the Browns have scored more than 17 points one freaking time! Including the Arizona game, the Browns have now went 7 straight games with less than 225 yards passing. The Browns are never going to win consistently with any QB who only throws for an average of 207 yds per game like the Browns have so far this season. Finally, I have some swamp land in Florida for you if you think for a moment that a Rodgers, Wilson, or Watson is going to want to come to Cleveland to throw for 200 yds per game. You honestly must be smoking something if you believe those QB's would ever agree to play in the Stefanski scheme - IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

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True... but isn't the running game doing what it's supposed to do? The Ravens were so afraid of our run that they were crowding the LoS all game. Talking heads wouldn't stop about it. That's what the running game is supposed to do so you can make them pay with big throws. We even saw glimpses of this late in the game (couple throws to Landry on 2nd down). I'm normally one to harp on not running it enough, but even I could see that those big run plays were really hard to come by. Chubb and Hunt were working hard and earning each and every yard (had a bunch of really impressive efforts to get 5 yards when they were hit right at the LoS). The Ravens had no subtlety in their D... they were challenging the Browns to beat them through the air all game, and especially so in the 2nd half. That's also what the run game was supposed to set up.

So why couldn't we do it? From the little we could see, I saw a LOT of covered receivers. I need to fire up gamepass (I'm actually going to do it this time). If the receivers couldn't get open in this game, then I think I have my answer as to our issues with the passing attack.

One thing that I think we can all agree on, though... I'm sick and tired of watching Felton run every way but forward on returns. That dude still thinks he can jitterbug/backyard ball his way through a punt return and just gives yards back to the kicking team every time. It's so irritating to watch.


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I was wondering about the no-separation and our 3TE sets... but then wouldn't Njoku shine in that situation?


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I read on another forum that Jake Burns already has film up showing receivers we're open. Don't know if that's true or not.

And if it matters Kareems dad is saying the same thing. Unless he and his son are estranged I'm pretty sure that's not an independent thought.

Baker isn't 100% culpable in the Browns issues and losses but he's a huge part. All we can hope for at this point is that Stefanski and Baker take the offseason to improve.

Thats about all we got at.this point. But four years in and Baker hasn't shown that he can be anything more than occasionally slightly above average. There's not a lot of hope there.

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The WR's we have are OK if we had 1 or 2 others that can stretch the field. That should be a priority this offseason along with a run stuffing DL and another LB or 2. JMO

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j/c...

The Browns have now scored a total of 7 points in the 4th quarter in their last 7 games. Not ideal.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
I read on another forum that Jake Burns already has film up showing receivers we're open. Don't know if that's true or not.

Looks like Landry is open coming across the middle for first down. Baker double clutches, defender gets on Landry and Baker takes the sack. Pause video at the 7 second mark or go frame by frame. Feels interior pressure and afraid to take the hit? Second guessing?

https://twitter.com/jake_burns18/status/1465305888307224579

Here's a still shot...


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Problems on offense: (starting up front and working back)

Offensive scheme: The 3 TE is not working as a close to full time scheme. We need receivers who can make plays in the pass game.

Game coaching: The offensive coaching is a problem. No adjustments to counteract the opponent's schemes.

OL: Too many jailbreaks, penalties, and overall problems. The injury to Conklin didn't help.

WR: Not on the field enough. Too many drops. Period. Not much separation on many pass plays.

QB: Baker had a rough game. Part may be drops, part may be too many plays behind the sticks, but he is also off. I do think that he is trying, but something is just not working.

RB: Sure we didn't have a ton of runs, but our RBs averaged only 2.4 yards/carry. Not acceptable. Like with Baker, there were others contributing to the difficulties here.

FB: Where was our FB anyway? Oh yeah, inactive. Why?

This entire offense is broken. It needs a massive overhaul. Injuries haven't help, but the scheme is broken. We need a massive overhaul coming out of the Bye.


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Originally Posted by devicedawg
Pssst.....Mayfield ain't the problem.

No, he's just one of them.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by devicedawg
Pssst.....Mayfield ain't the problem.
He is given his current health status. When healthy, the kid can play. Stefanski is THE problem with this team right now. Someone in the front office NEEDS to act for the benefit of the TEAM. NOW.


Please demand that Stefanski gives up play calling immediately or FIRE him! Enough!
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Originally Posted by mgh888
Agreed all round ... the Bryant injury also hurt. I mean an offense built around a receiving core of 3 TE's is going to be largely unimpressive but when one of those pieces goes down and there is no other realistic option to turn to, I think that made a big difference too. Conklin's injury is the worst of it for sure though.
The fact that an offensive strategy is built around THREE TEs is simply moronic given the rules that favor the offense in this era. Stefanski should summarily be fired for that reason alone. SMH


Please demand that Stefanski gives up play calling immediately or FIRE him! Enough!
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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Dave
I don't care if they had 8 in the box, you have to run Chubb and Hunt - both premier RBs - more than 15 times. The running game often doesn't work early, but still takes a toll on the defense that doesn't become apparent until later in the game, when one of your premier RBs breaks one. You gotta stay with it.

And not only that - but at some point Chubb and Hunt are good enough that when they get that one opportunity they will rip it for 40+ yards or go all the way. Very frustrating.
They BOTH need to be on the field at the same time. ALL THE TIME. You can certainly run Hunt out of the slot and create mismatches. It's not rocket science. Geezus, Stefanski really is THAT stupid. SMH


Please demand that Stefanski gives up play calling immediately or FIRE him! Enough!
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Originally Posted by BADdog
where was Higgins yesterday?

Higgins the week before against Detroit. 53 plays which was 72% of all offensive snaps. He had one catch for 17 yards on five targets.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2021/...sive-snap-counts-stats-and-notes-week-11

If you look at his results over the past five games they are dismal. He hasn't been producing. Unless of course the problem lies elsewhere.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by devicedawg
Pssst.....Mayfield ain't the problem.

No, he's just one of them.


This is my assumption, but I want to see for myself. I've read that we have WRs running open like crazy and I've read our receivers have the DBs on them like white on rice. Specific plays and stills (like above) are only somewhat helpful in that they don't tell the full picture of the game(s). Message board and tweets aren't good for showing what's going on over the whole game. Gotta just carve out time and go to the source.


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I agree with you. What I find much harder to believe is the claims that it's the HC's fault that Baker double clutches the ball and hesitates. What I disagree with is it's the HC's fault that Baker often times looked like he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn against Detroit in last weeks game.

I do understand the frustration fans feel about the three TE sets, but that brings up questions I haven't seen addressed. If you know you're going to face 7 and 8 men in the box, doesn't it make sense to have those TE's in to help block on your run plays and to run the short routes to make it easier to get rid of the ball quickly?

Much like yourself I'm not clear on what the issue is in regards to whether our WR's were closely covered in last nights game. I don't know if there were open WR's Baker was just missing or whether the Ravens coverage was just that good. As far as the dropped passes are concerned, every QB in the league has people dropping passes. I'm not sure how people can keep blaming everyone else for Baker passing for below 50% last night.


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No excuse can be made. We scored 3 points off of 4 picks. Those were scored because we got the ball in field goal position.

The entire O sucked, and it pretty much has for a while now.


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Stefanski gave up on the run. When you have the best running back duo in the league, you don't bail on them with only 17 carries the whole game.

Don't know to many coaches that would let their QB play with as many injuries as Mayfield has. No one can say he isn't tough and wants to win.

Kevin's play calling has been terrible all year long and he needs to give someone else a shot at it.

We have 5 games left to play and I am not to sure with the way this team is playing that we can win any of them.

I feel bad for the Defense because they played lights out for nothing most of the game. You get 4 turnovers, you should win the game.

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- I haven't read the other posts yet and I have stayed off social media. I am sure I will see a lot about Woods needs to go and the defense is hurting us. It was said after the Pittsburgh game when we held them to 15 points, and we had seven drops and a Landry fumble. Here, we held them to 16 points and had 4 interceptions. I have zero issues with the defense in this game. They did their job and held Lamar in check.

- Their one TD was complete crap. Horribly blown coverage, I cannot believe the TE was that wide open in the end zone with Lamar backpedaling like that. I say the TD was crap because of the blatant block in the back on Clowney that was not called. It was in the open.

- When they made that phantom roughing the passer call on Clowney, which the even fan-boi announcers did not agree with, as well as the rules expert they talk to, I went to bed. Much like the Detroit game when the refs allowed Baltimore to snap the ball on the game winning FG 3 seconds after the clock ran out, that they were not going to let Baltimore lose the game.

- I know, refereeing is bad all around. Really bad calls and non-calls in every game. I agree with that. But I do not agree that, at the end of the day, it all cancels out and there are not teams who benefit more from poor officiating than other teams do.

- Stefanski needs to stop calling the plays. The snap to Landry play really changed the tone of the game. If you try too hard to show you are the brightest guy in the room, then you're going to prove that you are not.

- The Baker fumble ... WTF? No one even touched him. Hunt was there for the screen. A first down, at least. Ball just comes out.

- I am tired of seeing Felton on the field. Guy does nothing. He is not even a decoy because no one fears him.

- Baltimore took away our run. The OL and Baker took away our pass.

- I was really pissed when Garrett shook hands with Lamar after that playground touchdown. Seriously? Clowney slammed his helmet into the turf in frustration and Garrett is singing kumbaya with the QB. I lost some respect for Myles. Shake hands after the game, not during.

- Once again, there is always next year.


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So it's your contention that you keep running the ball when the opposing defense stacks seven and eight men in the box? Well alrighty then.


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Maybe run more none the less.

brings to mind the term "live by the sword, die by the sword.

No doubt you need to try to find a balance and have the ability to pivot from time to time, but it's not like our passing game was doing much.


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Quick to bring up that Baker was under 50% completion rate last night but no mention of the massive pass rush he faced 75% of the time. No mention of defensive players coming at Baker untouched due to missed assignments, outmanned, or just plain beat at the point of attack. Drop passes occur I agree, with the Browns they always happen in critical situations but 5 in one game?

This is what I see, people may scream that receivers were open but where were they in the progression? Running free as the third or forth choice when your QB has 2 seconds or less to throw is immaterial. When the defense has 6-10 in the box, it becomes almost impossible to read which ones are dropping back or coming. Seeing one drop back that gets in the primary receivers route would be cause for a double clutch, if your second is covered and six are coming there's no time to find receivers 3 or 4. Secondly, I have never heard a WR or TE ever admit that they were covered so 50% of this BS is just that, BS!

This is where scheme must be adjusted. The first time the Ravens put 6-8 in the box the adjustment needed to be made to spread the offense. You absolutely must get the defense to play honest. Stefanski's inability to adjust and sticking with the 3 TE set allowed the defense to stack the box and only have to defend for 2 seconds. Run game stuffed, huge pressure on the QB, 2 seconds to throw and no need for safety's to play it honest. There's no QB in the league that would be successful playing that type of offense without some kind of adjustment. Remember, Stefanski has taken a gunslinger and turned him into a game manager that's sole purpose is to not make mistakes. This leads to hesitation from your QB and results in a lot of dump offs as the safe play. Nobody wants to see a bunch of interceptions from a QB that doesn't know how to protect the ball but if you don't practice 3 and 4 WR sets and what to do during blitzes or cover two then you end up with situations that we are watching - a poorly prepared team running a scheme that makes the Browns one dimensional. I will repeat, the Browns are clearly a one dimensional with a passing offense averaging 207 yds per game through 12 weeks. That is on Stefanski - not Baker and until it changes the Browns will struggle.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So it's your contention that you keep running the ball when the opposing defense stacks seven and eight men in the box? Well alrighty then.

I was thinking the same thing. Only a fool would keep trying to run it with 8 in the box. The problem, IMO, is that Kevin doesn't spread out the formation. Thus not omly are the rushers in the box, so is every other defensive player. Trying to read that presnap has got to be hard. Also,just as in the Steeler game, Conklin goes down and Hance comes in against their best pass rusher. Stephanski gives him no help, letting him struggle and get beat constantly. For God's sake, their is three TEs on the field, put Hooper over their and let him block or chip or something.

Baker at times was letting the ball go quickly, and it seemed to be working. Then, he goes into his double clutch mode. I still stand by the thought that when he steps up in the pocket, he can't see down field. The timing of this offense is horrible, and that is compounded by not having a #1 receiver on the team.

I hope they self coach during the bye, and see the obvious mistakes they are making running this scheme. Baker thrives moving the pocket and bootlegging, yet they have him standing in the pocket, where he seems to hesitate to let the ball go. This offense has become so predictable, it is embarrassing.

If they don't change the scheme a little, they will have a hard time winning another game. The tape is out there, and teams will use it.

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It's at that point that your run game has set up your passing game. Baltimore was schemed to stop Chubb at all costs in the second half, so if you can't pass on that....

What I don't understand is that, even though we're taking WRs off the field in our 3TE sets, the guys we have out there aren't exactly plodding OLinemen. Hooper is a pass-catching TE (when he doesn't let the ball clang off his hands). He's certainly not a "blocking TE". Njoku is a matchup nightmare when he's sent out on a route. If the defense is set up in 'run D mode', why can't we tee off on them with Njoku? If he was also dropping passes that would be one thing....


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I think part of the reason for giving up on the run is because KS is only looking at it from the next play perspective. When he's busy calling plays, he's not able to see the bigger picture of what is happening, only focused on finding something that might work next.


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Just to balance things out slightly....

Jarvis had 6 receptions for over 100 yards. His average was just under 20 and his long was just under 40.

They talked about getting him more involved, and they did.


Chubb and Hunt ran hard when they got the rock. It was an uphill battle for the ball carriers.


Hance is a guard... so his performance this year (limited as it is) is actually pretty impressive.

Baker was decisive in brief streaks last night.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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j/c...

Snippet from Jason Lloyd's article. Not good.

The Brown have been shut out in their last three fourth quarters and six of their last seven. Mayfield is the 33rd-rated passer in fourth quarters this season in a 32-team league and only Jameis Winston has a lower completion percentage in fourth quarters among qualified passers than Mayfield (52.2 percent).

None of it is good enough and all of it is predictable by now. It wasn’t even surprising the Browns went four-and-out on their final drive of the night. With the season at stake and 1 minute, 10 seconds left, the Browns couldn’t even generate a first down, much less a touchdown.

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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
Baker at times was letting the ball go quickly, and it seemed to be working. Then, he goes into his double clutch mode. I still stand by the thought that when he steps up in the pocket, he can't see down field. The timing of this offense is horrible, and that is compounded by not having a #1 receiver on the team.

That has always been pretty much Bakers bread and butter. Three or five step drop then release. That's not necessarily a #1 WR issue. That's more of a slot WR/TE/RB duty as anything. I'm not sure why he's doing so much of the double clutching and hesitation. But it's killing him.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...

Snippet from Jason Lloyd's article. Not good.

The Brown have been shut out in their last three fourth quarters and six of their last seven. Mayfield is the 33rd-rated passer in fourth quarters this season in a 32-team league and only Jameis Winston has a lower completion percentage in fourth quarters among qualified passers than Mayfield (52.2 percent).

None of it is good enough and all of it is predictable by now. It wasn’t even surprising the Browns went four-and-out on their final drive of the night. With the season at stake and 1 minute, 10 seconds left, the Browns couldn’t even generate a first down, much less a touchdown.

Baker is at his worst against great competition and later in games minus a few outlier games.

I said at the beginning of the year the team will go as far as the QB can take them. Baker is a well below average quarterback who's weak mentally but plays with above average talent. The result is .500 and no playoffs.

It's always about the quarterback.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
When it rains it pours. From the always controversial Dr. David Chao...



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Quote
Baker is a well below average quarterback who's weak mentally but plays with above average talent.

In terms of skill positions, who, on Baker's side of the ball is clearly above average besides our two RBs (who are never on the field at the same time)? At WR we have Landry, who's pretty good when healthy, and a group of journeymen. We have 3 slappies at TE.

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One thing that occurs to me is a minor, but potentially important: Baker learned to play "up on his toes" last year, That gave him extra height, and extra vision. He has had a leg/foot injury, and that may be affecting his ability to do so. I would watch the game to see if that's the case, but I have no desire to subject myself to that.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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One other thought:

How do we have 12 men on the field for a PR ..... twice?

Coaching is a problem this season, and I fear that it's contagious. Stefanski needs to swallow his pride and give up the p[lay calling, so he can handle the bigger picture.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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J/c

Felton had one snap LOL that was a hell of a contribution from him last night.

In terms of Baker: IMO he IS a problem but he isn’t the ONLY problem. Wills was garbage (and has been). Our WRs are garbage (and have been). Hooper ain’t worth his salary, not even close. Then add in penalties, drops, etc.

Now, if Baker was a true blue chip QB all of that stuff gets minimized. But he’s not.


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
One thing that occurs to me is a minor, but potentially important: Baker learned to play "up on his toes" last year, That gave him extra height, and extra vision. He has had a leg/foot injury, and that may be affecting his ability to do so. I would watch the game to see if that's the case, but I have no desire to subject myself to that.


As ridiculous as that sounds, it might just be the most reasonable idea put out there.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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I've never seen so many excuses made for one guy. Not one person is arguing that maybe Stefanski is bad because of Baker. You know like maybe defending and propping Stefanski up and finding any reason to exonerate him? But the lengths people.will go through to exonerate Baker is outlandish. My recent favorite is he forgot to play on his toes. Lmao...my goodness.

Baker blew his wad when he wasn't clutch against KC. It was a perfect last chance to prove to all the doubters and the team and himself he could be that guy. And it's been downhill ever since. He lacks confidence and the mental grit to get the job done. His teammates sense that. They are quitting on him and abandoning him. Their families are stoking the fires. Media is laughing at him.

I can't wait to hear the new ones. Maybe he changed his pre-game meal and it caused indigestion.

I said many many months ago that the lack of clutchness was an issue. It's now.rearing it's ugly head into a complete organizational meltdown.

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