DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Covid Continues-Part 8

I am surprised this wasn't brought up before. I also think this opens up the door to other issues like morbid obesity and smoking also not being covered.


Health
Unvaccinated hospital patients in Illinois should pay for their covid-19 care, Democrat proposes

A health-care worker administers a dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine to a student during a vaccination clinic in Wheeling, Ill., on Nov. 17. (Nam Y. Huh/AP)
By Timothy Bella
Yesterday at 10:12 a.m. EST


Unvaccinated hospital patients in Illinois would have to pay their own coronavirus medical bills out of pocket, according to legislation proposed Monday by a Democratic state lawmaker.

Rep. Jonathan Carroll filed his bill amid the state’s struggle to contain covid-19 cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

FAQ: What to know about the omicron variant of the coronavirus
“A person who is eligible to receive a COVID-19 vaccine and chooses not to be vaccinated shall pay for health care expenses out-of-pocket if the person becomes hospitalized because of COVID-19 symptoms,” the proposed bill says.

The proposal from Carroll, who represents the Chicago suburb of Northbrook, is almost certain to face political opposition and legal concerns, as federal law prohibits insurers and employers from charging higher prices to patients with preexisting conditions. That also includes those diagnosed with and treated for covid-19, according to healthcare.gov.


But the Democratic lawmaker told The Washington Post that he was frustrated at seeing vaccination arguments playing out between people who are “trying to do the right thing” and those “choosing not to get vaccinated for whatever reason.”

“If you choose not to get the vaccine and end up catching covid and end up having any medical expenses, you are responsible for those costs,” Carroll, 47, said Tuesday. “No one is telling anyone what they have to do. What we’re saying is if you make that decision to not get vaccinated and you are hospitalized, that’s the decision you’re making, and there’s consequences to that. It’s a simple formula.”

Coronavirus infections and covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths are increasing nationwide as the country inches toward 50 million reported coronavirus infections since the start of the pandemic. While there is concern and uncertainty about the omicron variant of the virus, public health experts nationwide are stressing that the overwhelming majority of the nation’s coronavirus cases are still caused by the highly transmissible delta variant, which has led to some of the worst spikes of the pandemic.

U.S. coronavirus cases approach 50 million

In Illinois, the state is averaging nearly 7,150 new infections a day and is one of six states to average at least 7,000 new cases daily in the past seven days, according to data tracked by The Washington Post. The state’s new-case average increased by 73 percent compared with last week, data shows.


Hospitalizations and deaths in Illinois are also up in the past seven days. More than 2,750 people in the state are hospitalized with the virus, including 563 in intensive care units.

Sixty-two percent of the state’s population is fully vaccinated; the national rate is 60 percent.

More than 786,000 people have died from coronavirus in the U.S.

Carroll’s proposed legislation, which was an idea he said that grew out of a conversation with his wife, would amend Illinois’ insurance code. The change reflected in the two-page proposed bill would update insurance policies issued or renewed on or after January 2023. Some public figures and celebrities have called for unvaccinated people to be denied hospital treatment, but Carroll’s bill appears to be one of the first of its kind to call for those not immunized to pay for their hospital care if they come down with covid-19.


“We’re in a world where covid is going to be here for a bit, and those who aren’t doing their part are creating new variants and continuing to spread the disease,” he said. “We’ve tried so many different incentives and conversations to get people vaccinated, but people aren’t listening. And there is a potential consequence to that personal choice.”

Carroll acknowledged the uphill legal climb and political pushback the bill faces, but he stressed that the proposal was not mandating vaccination or denying health coverage. He pointed to recent changes in other states and among businesses as signs that action needs to be taken in Illinois. Nevada is the first state to impose an insurance surcharge on unvaccinated state employees, and Delta Air Lines has a similar monthly insurance surcharge for employees.

The bill already faces opposition from state Republicans. Illinois Senate Republican Leader Dan McConchie told the Chicago-Sun Times that he opposed Carroll’s bill because he was against “taking health care away from Illinoisans.”


Carroll said it was “exceptionally ironic” that some conservatives who remain unvaccinated and Republicans opposing the bill have long opposed the Affordable Care Act.

“The people who complain about Obamacare are going to point to Obamacare as the reason why this bill can’t happen,” he told The Post, laughing. “They’re going to be citing the Affordable Care Act if it goes through the process and gets to a vote.”

He’s already faced blowback from critics in and out of his district who’ve used “some colorful language” to describe the bill, he said.

It’s unclear whether the bill could pass in its current form, and Carroll conceded that what he’s proposing is “going to evolve.” But he said that as covid-19 continues to be “the disease of the unvaccinated,” a greater political effort will be needed in Illinois, not only to help hospitals but also to send a message to those still refusing to be vaccinated.


“This vaccine argument is so polarizing. A lot of people who don’t live in my district seem to hate me right now,” he said. “But I’d like for us to get back to normal.”

Andrew Jeong and Adela Suliman contributed to this report.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...iM6529aRBWRBuRXbcrTOUubjPaoAQmvFtthXzGfY

It makes sense to me. If you want to “choose freedom” over getting vaccinated (unless you have a legit medical reason), don’t ask me and the others who have chosen to get vaccinated to subsidize the after-effects of that choice if you get sick with COVID.

The data is in regarding the approved vaccines (safe and effective), and they are free, as the govt has already paid for all of them.

I doubt this line of thought will go anywhere significant, but I'm glad the discussion is happening anyway.

if 100% of Americans had the covid shot(s)

People would still get Covid
People would still give others Covid
People would still die from Covid

People are already paying for it now... It's called health insurance.


Did you know that if you have had Covid health insurance companies are labeling you as higher risk?
They are also planning to start charging you more for health insurance.

"if 100% of Americans had the covid shot(s)

People would still get Covid
People would still give others Covid
People would still die from Covid"

True, but at substantially lower rates for all of those


I don't think insurance companies should be allowed to refuse coverage for any reason. You pay your premium for coverage. They don't refund it if you don't use it.
I do think that it is reasonable that that the unvaccinated get charged higher premium, same as if you smoke or drink excessively ...

I do believe that you should be denied any covid related subsidies if you are unvaccinated.
These subsidies are directly related to a specific issue, you shouldn't reap benefits if you contribute to the problem rather than doing your part to resolve it.

The fact that it would kill and hospitalize about 90% less people mean nothing to some. The actual number of corpses don't matter. Cutting deaths by 90% doesn't matter. All that matters is that they put their own thinking that it's their right not to protect everyone around them. They would like to ignore that many innocent people have autoimmune disorders that prevent the vaccines from protecting them like it does everyone else.

They think "mah rights!" trumps the lives of those around them. That something as simple as wearing a mask to help protect those people is some affront to their freedom. It would be hard to make this stupidity up if you tried. But someone did and they got millions of people to believe it.

Murica!

It's not illegal for the insurance companies to charge more, OR less, depending on the health of an individual. But denying coverage due to pre-existing conditions is currently illegal. And what SB is missing is that ALL of us are paying the price for this pandemic. Hell, our great-grandchildren will pay the price for this pandemic! There is not a single person in the world that has not been affected by the pandemic in at least some way. That said, the unvaccinated are part of the problem, not the cure… And it'll be a cold day in hell before they openly admit it. But the rest of us just have to accept that, for political reasons, a large part of our population would rather die from COVID-19 than be vaccinated against it. It's mind-blowing, but not surprising in this political climate.

The way I've seen it done is a 'non-tobacco user' coupon or discount. So they're not taking anything away or over-charging anyone... they're handing out a discount to people who don't smoke. I bet in that line of work (especially right now), that's an important distinction to make.

In every day terms we call that a work around. Want to charge someone more for certain unhealthy habits? Well we can't do it that way. So we'll charge everyone the same and give discounts to people with healthier lifestyles. It accomplished the exact same goal only in a way that isn't illegal. I'm not saying I'm or t or against it. I'm just calling it like it is.

People are like a spring, the harder you push them, the harder they push back.

Here are some cases I know of...

Doc asks do you smoke or use tobacco? No but I do like the nicotine gum. (This covers for nicotine in your bloodwork.)

Doc asks do you drink alcohol and how often? Not much, just an occasional beer. (This covers for alcohol in your bloodwork)

Doc asks if your child is vaccinated? Yes, fully vaxed and here are his papers. (You tipped the guy at the Pharmacy $50 to shoot the vax on the kids shirt.)

People buy proof of vaccine cards online these days too.

The only way the insurance companies can truly find out about your habits is to do a full investigation of your lifestyle. Stores you shop at, etc...
They are not gonna spend that kind of money, ever.

The Evening news:
Pedals Chinese sympathy.
and Vaccine Propaganda.
when they aren't addressing gang murders, drug and other murders, including of young children.

Interesting how the healthcare is a right crowd suddenly thinks healthcare shouldn't be a right for the unvaccinated.

Anyway, one of the underlying issues of Americans is if we get sick, we expect to go the doctor and be treated. Instead of focusing on preventive treatment to avoid going to the doctor in the first place. I was on another forum that has more of a global user base. Some were discussing how they focus on preventive treatment because there is no guarantee they can see a doctor in a reasonable amount of time.

So, now health care is only afforded those that obey, whether they have insurance or not? Weird. I thought health care for all was a mantra - obese or not, high blood pressure or not. But now, those people have to pay all costs? Odd. Totally what the left was telling us shouldn't happen.

Facts and actuarial tables are difficult to ignore. Insurance companies want people vaccinated as well… it cost more money to have a person on a ventilator, and 95 percent of those on ventilators are unvaccinated.

I understand what you are saying, but we don't do that with smokers, alcoholics, or drug addicts, or for that matter the uninsured.

Seems rather punitive and petty to me.

j/c:

552 Fully Vaccinated Oregon Residents Died Of COVID-19, Half Received Pfizer Vaccine

https://www.ibtimes.com/552-fully-v...-19-half-received-pfizer-vaccine-3352533

As a (relatively) healthy, not-obese, non-smoking, non-diabetic, etc individual it's pretty much universally understood that what I pay for health insurance is far more than my fair share... and that is because of the people that CAN'T put 'non' before all the things I just listed. A very small portion of the population uses the vast majority of healthcare dollars spent (I think it's like 10% of people use 75+% of healthcare dollars spent). So as somebody that is knowingly subsidizing other people's healthcare, you'll have to forgive me NOT shedding a single tear for someone who requires more of the pie paying more, especially when their needing more of the pie is tied to conditions that they ultimately have control over (ex. smoking... and yes, hospitalization for COVID-symptoms when they weren't vaccinated which reportedly the majority of people that require the most critical care).

It's odd how they're pointing out the double standards of one liberal who proposed a bill in that state while they themselves claim to believe and stand for personal responsibility. Of course since one liberal proposed it, it suddenly became (you libs). That's how this works for them. If you choose to ignore common sense safety measures, choose to smoke or drink heavily, you have chosen to be at a higher health risk which requires more medical care. More medical care requires more money. Suddenly they don't think it's right or fair to pay for the risks you chose to take on? So much for being the party of personal responsibility.

Jc

Still waiting for my magneto powers to develop after being fully vaxxed. Anti vax crowd definitely played me.

There have been 5,356 Covid deaths in Oregon to date. So as you have been told over and over again, about 90% of the people who have died from covid were unvaccinated.

But just like the energizer bunny I'm sure you'll keep trying.

Imagine if over 4800 more Oregonians were alive by ignoring the likes of you. Good times!

I can only speak anecdotally to what I am currently seeing.
Prior to vaccine COVID was laying ruin to nursing home facilities here locally. It was scary as hell what was seeing. I’ve been a hospice nurse for over a decade and a half and haven’t seen the amount of death in a short time as what I saw when COVID hit the elderly population I care for.
Now, with the vaccines, I see FAR less death. Was on a COVID unit of a local assisted living facility on Wednesday. The facility had multiple positive tests. They quarantined off a section of hallway/rooms and keep the infected there until it’ll run it’s course. Behind those doors I saw most of the residents living life like nothing was wrong. The facility had to send only one of their residents out to the hospital.

This is real life reporting. Take it however you wish. I know what I know.


Addendum: Of course a large number of the deaths are going to be of those that were vaccinated. Almost every elderly person in Oregon, certainly those in nursing facilities, are vaccinated. So when a facility has an outbreak it’ll be within the vaccinated. The ratio of those dying with the vaccine to what it was like prior to vaccine is the key.
Hence my original statement.

Thank you for the update.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/science-is-flawed-covid-19-ivermectin-and-beyond

Interesting article. Little something for everyone...

It's unfortunate that we cannot trust the scientific community to relay the actual science. "Trust the science" has become one of the most comical statements (to me) as we've gone through this historic pandemic. The premise of toeing the line and standing in lockstep has made our politicians look relatively harmless in comparison... and that's not even addressing the actual junk that is being passed around as "science".

Actually it seemed to show that the vast majority of the scientific community "most of us" have come to trust and that use solid studies are reliable. As with any profession you have others who do not use solid data with which to compile their studies and must be closely watched. Most of the questionable examples were about drugs that some have claimed were helpful that the scientific community as a hole has told us to wary about.

I listened to the science by seeking out and reading peer reviewed studies. Then I trusted the science by wearing an N95 at work and a KN95 in public.

What I didn’t do was listen to the news, aka opinion affirmation infotainment, for medical advice. Nor did I listen to the tv talking heads… Fauci included.

I used reasoning, combined with what I was seeing in my field, and actual information to scientifically protect myself.

Science is pretty awesome.

I dunno what you’re talking about. I trust the scientific community.

To me there's a difference between hearing and listening. I heard a lot of information from people such as Faucci and heard things being said on the news. But with so many Americans dying I wasn't willing to actually listen to what they were saying. I did however give Faucci some credit. I mean he has worked under six different presidents so I knew all the BS about him "being political" was just that, BS. When someone works so hard to discredit someone who is an actual expert and has worked for so long as an unbiased professional it made me question those attacking Faucci far more than Faucci himself. What I did fully understand is that Covid 19 was a new strain of virus. That as time went on more information would become available and as that happened, there would be changes in protocol. That the information we are being given at the time is based on the evidence they have at the time and it can and probably will change. That doesn't make it some "conspiracy".

But with it killing so many Americans I would never take it at face value. We have people on this board such as yourself and Jules who work in the medical community. I have other friends who work in the medical community. There have been many studies conducted by major universities. Then there is the advice of my own doctor. Sources I would be more apt to trust. That's the main ways I came to my conclusions.

On covid, climate change, and almost every other heavily politicized scientific study, the right seems to come up with questionable science or a reason to not trust the science on everything. It's called muddying the waters. This often confuses those that can't discern the truth in a sea of misinformation. Oh, the modern GOPer… afraid, uninformed, uneducated, and always whipped up into a frenzy…

And just so you know I'm not slamming all GOPers, because some are smart, some are not afraid, some can discern the truth, some are properly informed (few), some educated… but as a whole the majority are exactly what I said.

It's not the science that is the problem, it's the social media claiming to be science reports that people blindly believe, and that goes far beyond just COVID.

Social Media may be the downfall of mankind if it keeps up with it's current pace of misinformation.

And you can probably through main stream media in with it, long gone are the days of just reporting the news (Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather)

I took that article as a 2-fold problem.

1. The scientific community needs to do a better job policing itself because others won't.
2. Their work (the good and the bad) is getting amplified more w/o any checks and balances

I actually was reading a bit of that retraction watch website over this past year and felt that they had a pretty healthy amount of activity going, so I was surprised to read that some in the scientific community still feel the rigor isn't where it should be. I think the point of the article was a call to the rest of their community to get their ish together, but also a call out to the world to use a bit more skepticism in consuming the info. Our hunger for data from these studies is higher than ever. I myself just posted a pre-print of a study that didn't publish any sort of self-checking.

TLDR, the ivermectin thing is still a joke, but it also points to a bigger problem that's (apparently) gotten really bad lately.

Are breakthrough cases now just normal covid cases?

over 94% of the NFL players are vaccinated and nearly 100% of NFL personnel are vaccinated
https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthand...-and-vaccination-rates-oct-3-oct-16-2021

https://www.latimes.com/california/...-statewide-mask-order-starting-wednesday

The covid shot doesn't seem to be working. California requires mandatory masks indoors again with a 50% increase in covid cases in the last 2 1/2 weeks.


The order will affect roughly half the state’s population, including San Diego and Orange counties, the Inland Empire, the Central Valley and rural Northern California. The statewide indoor mask mandate order will last a month and will expire on Jan. 15.

Los Angeles County, Ventura County and most of the San Francisco Bay Area have their own indoor mask mandates that were implemented in the summer and have no end dates.

he U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention considers California as having a high level of transmission of the coronavirus, the worst tier in the federal agency’s four-tier scale.

California’s announcement came on the same day New York enacted its own statewide mask requirement in indoor public spaces, excepting only settings where everyone inside must be vaccinated.

Maybe Biden should do like Trump and shut down the country, order everyone off the streets, and not let anyone back into public without a vaccine...


Of course, I'm being absurd, just like superbowldogg. Get the shot, or you are part of the problem. Unless you have a legit medical reason not to get vaccinated, get vaccinated, that's how it should be.

I am baffled by the fact you don’t understand what has repeatedly been said to you.

And be called a xenophobe?

Vaccinated people catch and spread the virus too. A fact that keep getting ignored. In Denver, waste water testing is seeing the highest presence of covid ever. Yet cases in the area are down 50% from last years peak. This tells us there are a lot of mild or asymptomatic cases out there that are still capable of spreading covid.

Because

Biden has nothing to do with California.


Get the shot or else... that's how it starts...

Oddly enough.. I have done nothing but provide factual information and data.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...er-vaccine-south-africa-study/index.html


CNN)The Omicron coronavirus variant partly escapes the protection offered by the Pfizer vaccine, but people who have been previously infected and then vaccinated are likely to be well protected, researchers working in South Africa reported Tuesday

So, it's better to have covid which will protect you more than getting the shot.

How useful is this shot without getting covid?

The most protected continue to be those who had covid.

There continues to be little to research done with those who have natural immunities or have survived covid.

True, true, true.

Me & Hunny are vaxxed and boosted... and we still mask it when we go to high-volume gathering places (groceries, home improvement stores, etc). We absolutely refuse to be the asymptomatic disease vectors that infect someone's at-risk Grandparent or unvaccinated pre-school child. This fact you mention may not be covered enough in the press, but has not been lost on us. We both passed basic biology in HS, and were both raised to practice citizenship. This is a no-brainer for us, and it's not really a hardship to do. So why wouldn't we do this for ourselves- and everyone else?

A mask is mandatory at my job, and nobody complains. We all know/understand that a Covid outbreak in our line of work will shut down the entire operation, so we do it for each other and The Job. We have some of the strictest protocols in the region, second only to medical personnel. Any person who may have objected to shots/masks was free to take a year's leave of absence with a guarantee of employment when the next contracts were sent out. Not one person chose time off... and not one person has reneged that commitment. We worked virtually uninterrupted through the pandemic at a time when 90% of our industry was stf down. Citizenship on display. All oars rowing in unison.

This has never, ever been a political issue for me. Beyond being what My Parents and my church upbringing raised me to do, it is also an exercise in shared civic responsibility. I look no further than My Pops and my Pops In-Law as examples. Both were the teenagers on 12/7/1941. Both lied about their age to enlist. Both felt the call of civic responsibility, and as such, became willing participants and patriots that made them what we nowadays refer to as "The Greatest Generation."

If our parents/grandparents/great g's could survive the Great Depression, WWII/victory gardens/Rosie The Riveter, The Cold War, The Rust Belt, 2 more stock market crises, and 9/11...
I think I can wear a piece of fabric over part of my face for a fragment of my life. I love that I was raised by adults whose sensibilities & standards were shaped by being kids during the Great Depression. They were uniquely prepared for the challenges that would soon arrive in their lives. They raised us as young people, old before their time.

I look around me now, and can't help but see how much of that hard-won wisdom has been squandered.
Fights in congress and on the streets about wearing masks...


I wish the word was out more.
I wish people could hear it.

just another .02