DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Mayfield Continued

I happen to think our Oline and RB positions are top-notch and I also happen to think our TEs are, relatively speaking, very good. That leaves the WRs.

Yes, I do see them as about the same.. "all the pieces" = "a fair amount of talent"... of course that talent has to be spread through the position groups, OL, RBs, WRs, TEs, play calling... Right now we are loaded at RB (when healthy), solid on the OL (especially for run blocking), TEs have been a disappointment, deficient at WR, and play calling has been somewhat suspect at times...

Agreed. At this time that would be the most prudent way to go.

The decision is an easy one, really.

It all begins with Stefanski & Berry & Van Pelt all determining an honest Why regarding the reasons this offense has so grossly underperformed and how much of that is Baker's share, vs how much is on Stefanski and how much is on other players, or even Berry for not fixing the RT spot.

If they determine that most of the issues aren't on Baker's shoulders, then there's no chance that you do not give him a contract.
If it's 40-60 to 60-40, either way, then you have to ask how much is fixable and what does that look like long term. If it's worthwhile, or close to it, you give the contract, otherwise, you roll the dice and find a way to move on to something better without imploding the team as-is.

If 60+% of the fault lays on Baker, however - and we'd have seen that over and over and over again in every game if it was all his fault, then there is a zero percent chance that he should get a new deal.


I'm seeing some folks making a big deal over how much of the team needs to be built up around them versus how much the QB elevates.... but, be realistic about this. It isn't even arguable on any level that Aaron Rodgers is one of the best to ever play the position and he is routinely credited for "elevating" his receivers, lol, yet he has only gone to one Super Bowl and is on record as being kinda vocal about wanting better receivers.

Big Ben, as much as I hate to say it, is a first-ballot Hall of Famer... but, in years that he didn't have a Hines Ward or Santonio Homes or Mike Wallace or even Ju-Ju, he hasn't been all that.
No matter how good a QB is, there has to be something there to elevate; you can't turn crap into gold.

JMO but I never thought Wilson, Rodgers or Watson were ever coming here. I wouldn't want Watson anyways with all the problems he has. Baker will be our guy for the foreseeable future.

He does.

The OL has been plenty banged up - I wonder how many games we've played with a healthy starting 5 on the OL? Maybe 3 games?
RB I think we are tops in the NFL.
TE's - we don't have that much of a drop off from 1 thru 3rd string, so in one regards they are a deep/solid group... But none of them is a stud.

Looking at his entire NFL Career - I have some whys that I believe to be relevant: 4 HC in 3 years. 4 OC in 3 years. Hue Jackson. Freddie Kitchens.... then a rebuild of his mechanics at the start of his 3rd year under KS with a new QB coach changing his footwork. Then there were two "bad weather games" .... Folks pretty much gave Mac Jones and Josh Allen a pass this past week because of the bad weather - in the 2020 Raiders game the weather was as bad and Baker threw 12/25 and got panned for it. In the Texans game Nov 15th it was worse with gusts up to 72 mph ... Baker went 12/20 and again got panned.

Maybe Baker just isn't that good - but I see valid reasons for most of his really bad play in addition to his own issues. Those reasons/influences add and create the acute inconsistency to my mind. I mean Kitchens was a truly inept HC - but Baker was also ill prepared that season and over weight and out of condition, there is blame enough for both of them, but I don't believe Baker has been given the same stable opportunity for success as Lamar or Allen for example.

Agreed .... I'm still hoping for the journey to greatness starts this season !! A win this weekend and anything can happen. A little bye week magic .... who knows what we see this year. Stefanski hasn't always called the best games - but he seems plenty smart, hopefully he can adjust his scheme to account for not having Conklin at RT and having WR's who aren't studs. The key may need to be a transformation of DPJ and possibly finding an impactful 3rd WR option to use when needed.

You forgot to mention that this year Baker has been incredibly beaten up physically. Despite what he and the team has been saying, it has most certainly affected his performance. He had the bye week to get healthy. Let's see what he does this week and the rest of the season.


He should have sat against Detroit. People argued what is better 50% Baker or 100% Case but that is a short sighted argument. The question should have been, what is better, Baker at 50%, 50%, 50% or Case at 100% Baker at 80%, Baker at 80%


I agree with you about Allen and Lamar. Allen has 2 good games and 2 bad games and the narrative is he is so good, he just had a couple bad games. When Baker does that he sux. Lamar has 8 interceptions in his last 4 games. Why is nobody talking about that? Yes he had some good years but he has never been great as a passer. His primary value is his running ability which is awesome. So what has happened? Teams were afraid to blitz him for fear of giving up giant runs. But now they have figured out how to blitz him in a way that keeps him from scrambling. Right now Lamar is really confused and can't figure out how to handle it. If he figures it out look out but if he doesn't he is going to continue to struggle leaving the ravens quite vulnerable.

If we win this week then we are right there in the middle of things. Not in the driver's seat but definitely the co-pilot chair. We lose and the season is essentially over.

Quoting bone's post but really responding to Purp. The additional layer of your decision tree is also the part where you determine how to upgrade. Because if you decide to move on from Baker, then the next obvious step is to get someone better (or at least better suited) for the offense. As much as we all like to nitpick/blast Baker, I think it's this second part that's really going to be the hang-up. Who is out there (via FA, via draft, or via non-pie-in-the-sky trade)? If Wilson is truly off the market, that doesn't leave a whole lot in terms of upgrades to Baker. FA's includes the likes of Bridgewater, Garrapolo (?), and ....? Draft is a crapshoot and we're not picking top ten.

Well we had posters suggesting Cam would be an upgrade over Baker. So somewhere there is a Baker Hater that thinks releasing Baker and signing Dalton or Bridgewater would be a positive.

To be clear I thought Cam would be an upgrade over Keenum if Baker missed time.

I'm certainly not saying they will decide to move on from Baker. I actually agree with bonefish that they will determine that after the 2022 season. But I do feel there is a flaw to your logic.

If and when they decide Baker can't get the job done, it's no longer about Baker or upgrading from Baker. It's about trying to find a QB that can get the job done. As I said, "if or when" they decide Baker will never get us where we want to go, at that point it's about living in mediocrity or trying to do more. No coaching staff or franchise owner will decide to stay in limbo. At some point if they decide Baker isn't the answer, they will have to try and find someone they think that is.

The most traditional way to do that is draft one. Yet hardly anyone is mentioning that option. God knows I don't wish to go down that road and start all over. Nothing would make me happier than to see a healthy Baker in 2022 lighting up the scoreboard and taking us to the playoffs next year. Hell I would love to see things turn around and us go to the playoffs this year. But as of now we are who we are and we are where we are.

The thing is, if after the 2022 season they decide they are going to move on from Baker it means we won't be drafting "late in the first". But you are certainly right about finding a true, quality NFL QB in the draft being a long shot. But I'll go back to my original thoughts. If or when it is determined Baker isn't the answer, sticking with him is what the team would be determining is a long shot at success too.

For the record, there were three weather games, all in a row.
And the talking heads panned him all season for his "3 game slump" like they were actually making astute observations of something.

I remember that stretch.. they failed to mention that he played as well, or better, given the conditions than the QB he faced and we won 2 of them.

Yup, and that stretch is STILL brought up from time to time when an "analyst" recaps his career.

Just for fun...

In that 3 game stretch, Baker was 36 for 67, 458 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, averaged 12.7 ppg - Rating 75.3 (Browns 2-1)

In the last 4 games, Lamar was 80 for 135, 857 yards, 5 TDs, 6 INTs, averaged 15.2 ppg - Rating 71.4 (Ravens 2-2) and I don't think weather was a huge factor in any of them...

I wasn't thinking so much of Lamar with that reminder of the bad weather games ... but Mac Jones and New England. They just played a game with winds of up to 45 mph. They made a HUGE deal about it - and Mac Jones attempted a total of 3 passes .... that is the new QB media darling who has been christened by all a Franchise QB. He's so good - they trusted him to throw the ball 3 times. People bang on about Baker being trusted by Stefanski but Mac throwing 3 times in bad weather and it's all about what a genius BB is - nothing about the limited play selection by the QB. . . And if the game was a blow out and never in doubt I would say it didn't matter, but the reality anyone could have won the game going into the 4th Q and barring a good bounces for NE, Bills could have easily walked away with a W.

Anyway the point stands - in last year's bad play period, while learning new footwork and mechanics, Baker played in 3 (my memory is corrected) bad weather games.... definitely part of the 'Why' in my perspective.

The Browns just released JaMarcus Bradley...Baker's WR/TE pass-catching options tomorrow are as follows:

Landry - Limited all week in practice...dinged up for most of the year

DPJ - Hopefully fully healthy and developing from his 6th Rd, 2nd year player status

Higgins - Not good enough to play last game ahead of JaMarcus Bradley

JoJo Natson - 2nd straight week call-up from the practice squad

Hooper - Yeah...Hooper

Miller Foristall - Call-up from the practice squad...He's tall


Hmmm...I wonder if the Ravens will dare us to throw...I know I would.

And you know that when they put 8 in the box all day it'll be because of Baker.

Landry hadn't looked the same since he was injured. I hope he is close to 100% after the bye. DPJ has flashed. Higgins is a head scratcher. We need a couple of them to show up and we need some plays that are more than vanilla while not being gadget/cute.... And when the play works Baker has to deliver catchable balls. I'm feeling positive .... But I don't expect it to be pretty.

Isn't this the exact same group of WR's people were saying "looked better without OBJ"? Now the excuse is they're all a bunch of scrubs. The story changes based on which way the wind is blowing.

Already addressed that - and you are like a dog with a bone. A bone called agenda.

Explain to me how this is not possible? This group of WR is better without OBJ. This group of WR is below average? They are not mutually exclusive.

Yet nobody was saying that then. Only now. The talk on the board before this season started was how much talent we had in the WR department. Now suddenly they suck according to some. I guess they want it both ways and it changes only according to the score board. My only agenda is getting people to at least make an earnest attempt to be honest with themselves and stop all the double talk. I want Baker and the Browns to succeed as much as anyone here.

But if people keep continually blaming the WR's and anyone and everyone else for the fact our QB has only been completing about 50% of his passes over the past three games it makes an honest discussion impossible. When someone points that out and emphasizes it, rather than people being honest about it people such as yourself try to claim the one who points is out is the one with an agenda. You may find a mirror helpful.

Yep...and they were wrong then...and even more wrong now.

This time you're right.

OK - I guess an honest discussion is impossible with you regards Baker.

Instead - just answer one question: Do you think our WR core that plays today is Elite - Very Good - Good - Average - Below Average of Bad.

Just answer that one question - thanks.

It's the same WR group that everyone said was better without OBJ. Which they clearly aren't. It's the same WR group everyone claimed was so talented before the season began. Now all of that is true.

A direct answer to your question. As of this time I don't know. Right now the QB is only completing 50% of his passes. It's very hard for me to give you an evaluation of the WR group when the QB is playing so poorly.

I believe I was one not liking our WR other than the fan boy in me suggesting they could be great. Disappointed in OBJ. I thought he could have been better. But now it's time to move on from Landry as well. I believe I had that.

We can move an from anyone you like. But that really isn't going to help if we keep blaming every WR we sign or draft for what's ailing this team.

Cause it’s always something else. Apparently our receivers were so good last year without OBJ, and now all of a sudden they all suck.

Soon, it will be the O Line, then the running backs. And when they finally get to baker…it will all be Andrew berry’s fault instead.

We have fans proclaiming that our receivers are nothing but scrubs now that OBJ forced his way out of Cleveland.

I"m going to focus on Higgins...is he a scrub?...those who portray themselves as EXPERTS at evaluating the Browns WR talent, SPEAK UP...LET'S HEAR FROM YOU...!!

Was Higgins a "SCRUB LAST SEASON"...?

My opinion "BASED ON THE FACTS", is that Higgins was the Browns #2 WR, based on his production on field, during the 2020 regular season and during the playoff games in 2021.

SOMEONE DECIDED TO PUSH HIGGINS INTO A BACKUP ROLE in 2021, replacing him with a TE or one of our part-time wrs.

The Browns management and/or coaching staff, decided to push Higgins into a backup role to the extent of making Higgins a healthy scratch in the most important game of the year against the Ravens. I'm not the only Browns fans to ask the question why would the Browns analytical management or the Browns coaching staff RESORT TO NOT PLAYING THEIR BEST PLAYERS in the most important game of the year, against the Ravens on Nov 28, 2021?

Since nothing has changed since Nov 28, I would expect the same starting lineup...

What?
….that’s not it.