DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2021 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 22 Packers 24 Post game.

It's not hard is it? And I think you are being very generous with regards how well Baker was playing. And I just checked, 8.8 yards per run. Let that sink in.

Last time I checked he was calling plays... soooo... that was on KS

Van Pelt called the Raiders game that was referred to

j/c…

Wouldn't that tweet be more impactful (and accurate) if the pass was completed? I'd say that was a win for MG and the D. Every QB could throw the ball in under 2 seconds if not being hit and no completitions was the goal?

It was a perfect pass and the best receiver in the league dropped it.

I was shocked when he dropped it. Greedy got immediately frozen on that play and was no where near his guy. We were fortunate there.

Well we have our own, NO/Rams fiasco, where a WR is mugged by a CB, and the non call changes the game outcome. Stuff happens. The NFL was supposed to clean this up, but obviously it was not successful. There has to be a way to improve the refereeing, but the non call issue is just as bad as the bad call.

Regarding Baker, the season became a struggle, the moment the shoulder was hurt. I just don’t understand the Baker commentary, when we are not evaluating a healthy Baker. That is the NFL, you need good QB play to win consistently, and that has not been the case this year.

The D has gotten better this year, and that is something to build upon.

Hopefully the surgery goes well, but we will have to wait till next year again.

It was a very good pass. That's true. Not sure if he threw it early and Devante wasn't expecting it or didn't pick it up? idk.

Yes we probably will have to wait for next year again. 57 years and running. 57 years ago today was our last championship. Long, long time to wait for another one.

Is that a sad attempt at deflecting from the absurd claim that "The OBJ effect lingers"? Because it isn't working.

Would you care to explain how that has anything to do with our 2-4 record over the past six weeks? Or how we sit in last place in our division?

Let me tell you how his feel works sometimes. Rather than do exactly what your opponents expect you to do and are prepared to defend, you do the opposite. Baker had not had an int. the entire second half.

The play was working so well the defender felt compelled to interfere with the WR because the ball was right on target and our WR had position on him. The fact the ref didn't call an obvious PI or that the defender committed the penalty was not the fault of Stefanski. The play called was a good one. Baker delivered the ball accurately. Yet that's not what those determined to blame the loss on him are saying.

Since this one seemed to be ignored, let's try it again.......

Let me explain what you have chosen to do in hopes that it will help awaken you.

In the last offensive play the Browns made, Baker threw a pass which clearly would have hit a WR who had position on the defender. If you disagree with this it appears you believe you know more about the situation than the actual defender on the field knew since he felt compelled to interfere with the WR. The ref blew the call. Either the complete pass or the PI call would have put us in FG range having three timeouts remaining with just under a minute left.

Your answer to this? It was bad play calling. If this isn't a prime example of how deeply down the rabbit hole you and those who have "created" this false narrative have fallen to make excuses why it all comes down to the fault of Stefanski I feel you are all beyond help.

Device, we have open WR's. We just need someone with the ability to find them. BTW- OBJ just caught his fourth TD with the Rams. I'll ask you again, what is it about the WR's that looked so poorly today? It has been shown that Baker has the third most open targets on pass plays in the league by PFF. Yet you keep blaming them.

Do we have stud WR's? No we don't. But can you explain how in this game what the WR's did so poorly?

This was directed to mgh and later in the post to Device, but anyone is more than welcome to address it.

Didnt they decide you can throw a challenge flag for pass interference late in the game after the NO fiasco?

If that is the case, KS should have done it.

I'm thinking the league did away with the PI review after one year, but I'm not sure. Either way, I think at that point of the game (final 2 mins) it would have to be a booth review.

The pass interference challenge rule was only in effect for the 2019 season. It was a dismal failure and calls were rarely overturned. It was not "renewed" for the 2020 season.

I feel that there should have absolutely been some PI calls reversed back in 2019, but the Refs wanted to prove a point that their decisions are infallible, and so nothing was reversed and talking heads and decision makers decided that it was a failure.

BTW PIT...OBJ notified the Browns front office during the summer before the season and while still rehabbing his knee after surgery, that he wanted the Browns front office trade him. OBJ didn't want to play in Cleveland and it was said he had become a malcontent in the locker room before his daddy and lbj forced the Browns to cut him loose.




Watching the replay of the Packers game, I noticed something about the way they were playing pass defense. The Packers were making contact with our Receivers after the 5 yard limit but well before the ball got to our WR. It didn't look like blatant interference but if our Receiver is running a timing route and our QB is supposed to be throwing to "a window" that is supposed to be a safe throw...the timing is off and the pass looks horrible and can be intercepted.

I agree with you on OBJ. He was our best WR. I also think we're better without him at this point. Did he get open? He was open but not where he should have been. We don't need stud receivers in this offense. We just need receivers to get separation and get open. I don't think you'll see us ever pay big bucks for one. I believe Landry's days are numbered as well.

I'm not getting into a hog calling contest about the state of the QB. I don't think he's been the best he be. I'm not saying he's flawless and everyone else is the problem so don't make it that. I don't believe for a second that we've seen the best of Baker. He's got things to figure out but I think it would be foolish to get rid of him at this point.

I think Baker stays. There isn't much better out there as an upgrade at this point. There's a reason why we keep putting him out there on the field despite being hurt, he's still our best chance to win. I understand the frustration. We'll be fine.

The odd thing about all of this, is that in the end, both of us want to see him be our starter again next year. I think you may have more faith that he will somehow turn it all around while with me it's more hope that he will.

There are a few points we disagree on however.

First is about your comment, " Did he get open? He was open but not where he should have been." I think considering his production in L.A. that's an odd thing for people to continue to believe. I mean it could be true but even so, there's usually a chemistry built up between a QB and his WR's. To a point where the QB can almost read what a WR he's played with for a long time is going to do before he does it. Their tendencies. I mean how many times have we watched and announcers even said, "The WR kept working to get open"? Obviously those WR's weren't "where they were supposed to be". If a WR is covered his goal is to get open. I'm not sure why everyone considers that a negative?

The second point is this... "There isn't much better out there as an upgrade at this point." I'm not quite sure what we have in Baker as of yet. Just as yourself and what I've seen from most Browns fans, we have him under contract for next year and giving him an opportunity to return healthy to try to get a clearer picture is something I certainly promote. But if after next season this FO decides to move on I think they will have determined we would be stuck in a consistent state of mediocrity if we continue with Baker. At that juncture I don't feel you can use " There isn't much better out there as an upgrade at this point" to settle for middle of the road without trying to improve.

The third point is this... "We just need receivers to get separation and get open." As has been shown, PFF ranks us third in the league as having open WR's on pass plays. And I think often times the confusion lies in what fans believe "open" means in the NFL. I don't think it means what people thinks it means. I don't know if you still have the Packers game available for you to watch or not. But if you do I would like for you to take a closer look. Baker wasn't accurate all of the time in that game. He had passes that were off the mark and some that sailed on him. But if you look at the times he was accurate you'll notice something. He threw passes on the money in "NFL windows". In the NFL if you have a half step on your defender and body position, you're open. We see it week in and week out by quality QB's around the league. They throw over the inside shoulder. The outside shoulder. They consider a WR with body position as open. Yes, that's open. And when Baker was being accurate against the Packers, he saw them as open and completed those passes. All we need now is to see that consistently.

"It was said"? I'm not sure how you think terrible production would help his image to the rest of the league if he was seeking a trade.

Since it seems you still have the Packers game to watch, look how when Baker was accurate he threw into very tight windows. That's what open looks like in the NFL. What you're describing indicates Baker can't see the field after the ball is snapped and just wings it to where a WR is supposed to be without surveying the field. I don't think that's how things are supposed to work.

To you and mgh,

Regarding your comments/responses on OBJ... OBJ is a good WR. Oft-injured/nicked up but very good. He just wasn't good for us. I say that with the Diggs story of him getting out of Minny in mind in that it probably wasn't going to work well even before the QB-related struggles. It is what it is... oh well.

Regarding Mayfield and moving forward. To mgh's point, I do think we'd have to swing some sort of NFL-shaking blockbuster trade in order to upgrade on Baker this offseason. He's good enough that improving on him is going to be very difficult and pricey. That said, I'm starting to wonder if, much like OBJ, Baker is good but just not good for us. I've pointed it out before, but that first-half Baltimore film session Warner did briefly highlighted a very basic footwork gaffe Mayfield had that threw off his timing on an incompletion. He's still got basic footwork/technique issues to squash, and this is after going through Footwork 101 when KS and Van Pelt arrived. Prior to that, Mayfield made a comment about not wanting to work with the 'broom sweepers' (throwing technique gurus). Much was made about that comment at the time, but I wonder if his injuries this year ARE a big deal, but only in that they're exaggerating some of his technical flaws. Mayfield has shown that he can do it all, even the things that people say he "can't/won't" do. He just fails to do them consistently. I think that final statement earns him the 1 final year to make an argument for a lucrative extension here.
And regarding next year and beyond, I think it would be negligent for Berry to do nothing with our QB room. It's borderline criminal that we have a backup that's as expensive as Keenum is, and we still basically didn't use him with how banged up Baker has been at times.

OBJ with Cleveland and OBJ with Los Angeles have been virtually the same. Thru the 6 games with the Rams and 6 games here he 3 more catches for 16 yards. His yards per catch were actually HIGHER in Cleveland than with LA. So one could argue he was actually more productive here.

I would agree that Baker threw some bad passes. The second int off his back foot floated over Jarvis. We shouldn't have been in that situation due to a missed call but that's neither here nor there.

Finally someone on air said it, I believe Aikman. A couple of Baker's passes would be caught if the receiver didn't run up field and instead went for the ball. But like he said that's all about how they are coached. Passes to Chubb and I think Njoku that looked like bad passes were with them running up field. But if they run towards the sideline those passes are on target every time.

And I'm not saying Baker is without fault. He is a good quarterback and he needs to stay. It's the people who are woe is me, our qb sucks, or team sucks, blah blah blah.... so dramatic. And these death threats? Some fans are being ridiculous.

Your response is laughable at best. I have always given Baker credit when he's played well. I have supported him since he's been here. Maybe it's you who needs to look at the comments from last year to see that. Just because you try and blame everyone else when Baker does poorly certainly doesn't make you a better educated fan. I hope Baker turns things around next season. I want to give him next year to do that.

Your lack of objectivity doesn't make you understand the game better.

So your answer to his inaccuracy is that the WR's should have ran to where Baker threw the ball rather than Baker throwing to where the WR's were going? I'm saying we have seen good Baker and bad Baker. And like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

Keeping this general, because that's how I went into it this week.

I wanted to see this team play competitively, and not go rumps-up submissive in a 35-6 type blowout (the kinds we remember, oh so well- am I right?).
I wanted to see some spark on O that I haven't seen in weeks (-got some of that-).
I wanted to see a level of performance that made me feel that this team can earn their way forward with a Monday night win over PIT.

This is what they accomplished, in the most general sense:

With our less-than ideal performance, we took the #1 seed to the last minute in a game we only lost by 2... after spotting them 21 off some uncharacteristic 'Christmas gifts.'
All but 3 of GB's points came off short field/turnovers. That means GB's only "earned" full drive was limited to a FG. This D played Rogers pretty well overall, and actually clamped down on him in the 2nd half (three consecutive 3-&-outs, if I recall?).

I also saw this O put together some sustained, rhythm-based drives that transpired well after our first scripted drive of the game. Browns moved the ball on GBP.

Most salient point: I didn't expect a win, so I wasn't devastated by the loss. Matter of fact, I saw enough in the way CLE was playing to feel better about their next matchup. Healthier/more starters back in the lineup/full week of practice... I don't care what any stat/betting line says, if the Browns can play 15% better next week than they did against GB, this next game is theirs for the taking. In convincing fashion.

For the past 2-3 years, we've been talking about a change in the culture at 76 Groza. This next game will be a strong indicator if that is true.
A 2020 season of NFL Covid Weirdness, followed by a 2021 season of rampant injury/NFL Covid Weirdness, and here we are: playing Pittsburgh at the end of the season in their house (for the second time in as many years) . If the FO, Coaches and team can't get it up for #7's last home game at The Ketchup Station, they should expect to get owned by PIT for another 20+ years.

This is the moment.
And The Stoolz have never been so ripe for a nationally-televised "changing of the guard."

Culture is created in pivotal games like these.


.02

All I can say is that I hope you are right.

Not only did Aikman say that - and it was an un-characteristic Aikman day because normally he ain't got nothing nice to say about anything Browns - Kurt Warner stated the same thing in his breakdown of one of the games. (yes it was a breakdown of one half of the game). Both QB's stated that the way all receivers are supposed to run those route is to break flat - out to the sidelines, not rounded with any 'upfield' after the cut.

As for where Baker is supposed to throw the ball - where the receiver is running or where they are supposed to run? In this offense and anything that is a timing throw - you always throw it to a spot where they are supposed to be. We talk about throwing receivers open? Well that is absolutely how you can do it. I don't know about KS, the Browns and how they are coached ... I don't know if they rounded routes instead of flattening them ... I do know two pretty decent QB's have stated the same thing regards how they believe the route is supposed to be run.

Did you notice how in both cases it was QB's defending another QB? I'm certainly glad they knew the Browns playbook.

Route running is route running and I think 2 HOF QBs have pretty good insight as to whether a route is run properly or not. Has nothing to do with a playbook.

Yeah, the way the play is drawn up in the playbook has nothing to do with anything.

Two HOF QBs just Baker homers and making excuses.

Screw those guys. Let's find a rando Baker haters with a Twitter feed and a still shot of a wr with 2 yards of separation to prove Baker is a BUM

So the coach is responsible for the fact that either the WR or the QB, which ever it happens to be, doesn't know the play that is called? So much for the personal responsibility of the players involved. The thought process around here seems to all the WR's have no clue where they are supposed to be but Baker does. And of course this mythical, "the route can only be run one way" and NFL coaches never variate from that. If that were true half way through that route every defender in the league would know exactly where the WR was going and no WR would have any chance to get open. It defies logic.

Every route has variables based on the play call. You can believe something that makes no sense if you like.

I think we disagree. I think Kurt Warner disagrees with you based on his comments. Troy Aiken disagrees too.

All good.

Don't argue with him. 2 pro bowl qb's stated things. They know nothing. They don't know the playbook. Only the magnificent knows the play book and can challenge the pro bowlers. Don't you know?

Stop yelling at people to get off the lawn and leave the football threads to actual talking about football and not a daily girl fight in every thread. smfh.

Troy Aikman hasn't played in the NFL for 20 years. He played for one team. That's the extent of the NFL playbooks he has actually seen. Warner hasn't played for 12 years and saw the playbooks of 3 teams total.

If you believe that this tells them the variations of every route in every NFL playbook you have a screw loose. As I said, if there are no variations to that route, this means every defender in the NFL knows exactly where every WR is going based on the beginning of that route. That idea alone is insane.

Every announcer on these games has tons of time to fill. They say all kinds of things. Some of it makes no sense. This is one such case.