That QB coming available will also have to look at 200 less passing attempts per year, a dysfunctional TE group being led by Hooper who's rated as the 19th rated TE in Tier 5, with Njoku and Bryant not even rated in the top 33, and a WR group with Landry currently being listed as the Browns highest rated WR in Tier 6 at #37 and Peoples-Jones at 55th in Tier 7. Those are some huge drawing cards to get a FA QB to come here.
I think it was revealed that Baker's mechanics were falling apart as this season went on. Part of that was the injuries, but the core of it was him not having those mechanics down to begin with. Overall inconsistency is also a theme with Mayfield. FWIW, if I were Stefanski I would be up for trading some of Baker's big-play ability for more consistency in hitting on easy plays that are there when a defense is focused on Chubb et al (if that QB was out there to be had).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Part of that was the injuries, but the core of it was him not having those mechanics down to begin with.
something tells me you have never played sports at a higher level.
my son was a pitcher/qb in hs and pitcher in college
he constantly had to work on his mechanics and keep them in tune
when he got hurt... his mechanics suffered things like: broken elbow/avulsion fracture on this thumb/ tendonitis in glove hand/ tendonitis in his knees/ tight hips / tight hamstrings
late in games... he would start to get tired and mechanics would slip a little.
mechanics always need refinement.
throwing a ball consistently and effectively may be one of the hardest things to do in sports.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
I'm keying on a single observation Kurt Warner made in his video of the first half of that Balt loss. He pointed out how Baker's first step after the snap was with the wrong foot, essentially turning a 3 step drop into a 3.5 step drop, which can throw off timing on a play that failed partially because of timing.
So at the risk of making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm trying to make a connection from his overall performance this season to known previous issues with his game (the first thing AVP did when they were hired was go heavy on footwork improvement with Baker). I also saw him throw off his back foot a LOT at the end of this season.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
So comparing Kirk Cousins in years 7-10 of his career with Baker's years 1-4 is an equal comparison? And how many different coaches did Cousins have in those 4 years? How many serious injuries?
If you want to go get Cousins, great, then we can consistently be above average... Baker still has the much higher ceiling when healthy.
Don't bring the reality of the situation into it. Raw numbers without laying out the circumstances is all that matters at this point. Objectivity isn't received well.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Oober if you analyzed games by Brady and Rodgers, much less Burrow and Lamar. Do you think their mechanics would be perfect on every throw? There is a real examination bias here. What does this prove? They are not robots.
I think you're reaching here. Baker's mechanics and footwork have been pretty bad this year. The only real discussion is whether it was the injury that caused it or not. I think it did.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Again, Baker said he could play. The medical staff said he could play. He was practicing. He is/was the starting QB. There is no way they were going to sit him given those circumstances. And they shouldn’t have sat him.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Agreed. The medical staff may have cleared him, the player may have said he is ready to go but at the end of the day THE COACH has to be able to analyze what his EYES are telling him about the QB and his performance IN GAME. He's so damn busy with his play chart he can't pay attention to the actual game on the field. There were a NUMBER of games where I'm sure people were screaming for a change at QB IN GAME due to what we saw happening on the field. This is where Stefanski fails. Give up the play calling and be a leader for your team AS THE GAME PROGRESSES. Basically, isn't that his job? I simply don't trust this guy to be effective as a head coach AND a play caller. And given his "strategy" on offense, I would prefer that responsibility be taken away from him. JMO
The Browns finally have a leader in the building. It won't be long before Jim Schwartz is in charge. Thankfully.
It really doesn't matter. The FO is all in on Baker. And you and I both know he isn't the guy.
They're all in because they know their options are severely limited in the offseason. Baker is a cheap fix in the short term at QB. He gets next year to prove his worth. I'm willing to bet that Berry is already looking ahead to the 2023 draft class. And even then you still need a quality veteran challenger/backup to teach the next kid. My biggest concern is Stefanski calling plays. That must change.
The Browns finally have a leader in the building. It won't be long before Jim Schwartz is in charge. Thankfully.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Agreed. The medical staff may have cleared him, the player may have said he is ready to go but at the end of the day THE COACH has to be able to analyze what his EYES are telling him about the QB and his performance IN GAME. He's so damn busy with his play chart he can't pay attention to the actual game on the field. There were a NUMBER of games where I'm sure people were screaming for a change at QB IN GAME due to what we saw happening on the field. This is where Stefanski fails. Give up the play calling and be a leader for your team AS THE GAME PROGRESSES. Basically, isn't that his job? I simply don't trust this guy to be effective as a head coach AND a play caller. And given his "strategy" on offense, I would prefer that responsibility be taken away from him. JMO
So you’re saying Baker should have been benched because he was playing bad?
I'm keying on a single observation Kurt Warner made in his video of the first half of that Balt loss. He pointed out how Baker's first step after the snap was with the wrong foot, essentially turning a 3 step drop into a 3.5 step drop, which can throw off timing on a play that failed partially because of timing.
So at the risk of making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm trying to make a connection from his overall performance this season to known previous issues with his game (the first thing AVP did when they were hired was go heavy on footwork improvement with Baker). I also saw him throw off his back foot a LOT at the end of this season.
I wouldn't doubt it. when you are injured, your body tries to compensate in strange ways.
When my son got soreness in his right knee, he started turning his left foot in when he landed after throwing the ball and he stopped pushing his chest forward.
small things can make a big difference.
Quite frankly, coaches don't care as much about mechanics or some of the other stuff when you are injured/hurt and you are the "guy". They just want the medical staff to keep/get you healthy enough to be on the field throwing the ball.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
Oober if you analyzed games by Brady and Rodgers, much less Burrow and Lamar. Do you think their mechanics would be perfect on every throw? There is a real examination bias here. What does this prove? They are not robots.
I already acknowledged that that could be the case. I'm not an expert (also previously acknowledged). What bothered/-ing me was that we have Baker making 'Intro to Footwork 101' level footwork mistakes a year after his footwork overhaul. It was previously (as in, back when he was coming off his first and second years) established that Baker needed help with his mechanics, as it was a contributing factor to his accuracy inconsistencies.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
And maybe just maybe if the Browns had a coaching staff dedicated to their areas of expertise then maybe Baker wouldn't be having these issues. The Browns have no QB Coach. They have Van Pelt but he's not dedicated solely to the QB's being the Offensive Coordinator. Mechanics are a daily thing that must be worked on and a true QB Coach would be responsible for whenever Baker slips on his mechanics. The Browns TE Coach and WR Coach have shown me the last 2-years that they are in way over their heads. There's no excuse for the bad route running and hands of stone receivers being in those groups. Stefanski needs to immediately give up the play calling and be a leader for your team and do the coaching you're supposed to do as the game progresses. If he wants to be the Offensive Coordinator, then hire Flores as Head Coach and give him the damn job he wants because he surely isn't performing as the Head Coach. Considering his predictable offense, the Browns need to hire an Offensive Coordinator who will 1) use the skill set of the players and 2) run an offense where not every single person in the stadium knowing what's going to happen. Maybe, just maybe, if Stefanski was Head Coaching instead of having his nose stuck in the play sheet he might have made an adjustment in the PIT game before his hobbled QB got blistered with 9 sacks. Stefanski has sucked at making adjustments all year - the Browns don't need another year of that crap. JMO
Until the Browns have the best QB in the North, the Browns Will never win.the North
Who do you feel is the best QB in the North?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
My only point has been looking at this from Berry and Stefanski's perspective. Do they really want to risk their jobs hitching their wagon to Baker for another season knowing the owner is trigger happy when it comes to firing people? Does Berry not owe it to the organization and the rest of the locker room to try and upgrade the position if the opportunity presents itself on a team that is built to win now? He has a huge decision to make.
Their butt is on the line either way. Nobody has thrown out an option yet that is a sure thing upgrade over Baker Mayfield....
Keeping Baker and having him not get back to a more consistent version of his 2020 self would be a risk.
Getting rid of Baker having him play elsewhere will provide a wonderful weekly comparison of Baker's stats compared to whoever our new guy is... and if the new guy isn't noticeably better, then what? We saw it this year, OBJ had a fairly lackluster performance for the Rams but he did manage to catch a few TDs and every time he did, the media took shots at the Browns.... now imagine if Baker were to go somewhere else and play a lot better than whatever his replacement is doing here? Heads would have to roll...
The safer play, if you are talking about Berry and Stefanski keeping their jobs, is to roll with Baker one more year and give him a chance to recover and prove himself. Letting him go is a much riskier option.
The medical staff, makes decisions based on whether further injury or longterm injury could occur, not based on whether the player can play at 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, or 100% of their potential. Only the player knows that, and maybe not even the player, if he is delusional. Baker was delusional.
Ultimately the proof is in the pudding, i.e. how the player performs. How Baker performed and looked last year and the first 2 games (completed 82% of his passes first two games) changed significantly by game 3 on, and definitely after game six. It seemed he had to labor to make good throw and that got worse as the season proceeded, likely because of the harness and the snowballing of piling injuries, being under constant duress from an oline falling apart, crappy receiver play/receiver discord (i.e. OBJ). This caused him to play poorly and that snowballed into affecting his head, especially the last 5 games of the season (seeing open receivers, pulling the trigger).
I said after Arizona he needed to be benched 4-6 weeks at least. Anyone that knows Baker knows he would play with a broken arm, to both his and the teams detriment. Both Stefanski and Berry should have pulled the plug on Baker. Not doing so not only ruined the current season, but mired both Baker and the teams future in uncertainty. It was a complete organizational failure that they still won't accept.
Some of Bakers best attributes are his worst flaws if not kept in check. He had strong coaches that kept him in check at OU (stoops and Riley), that has not happened in the NFL with kitchens and stefanski. I am not worried about Baker physically going forward, much more mentally. He was becoming a head case on the field by the end of the season. Stefanski and Van pelt have their work cut out for them to get him mentally back in the right place on the field.
It has to be Joe Burrow. Ben Rothlisberger is on.his swan song Lamar Jackson didnt.finish the season Baker continues to fall short in 4th quarter And continues to turnover the ball over
Burrow did what 95% of NFL fans didnt expect and lead.the Bengals to a division title And to boot he did not have the same 5 starting olineman Each week. Burrow showed he carry this team on.his.back. He beat some good teams this year
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Agreed. The medical staff may have cleared him, the player may have said he is ready to go but at the end of the day THE COACH has to be able to analyze what his EYES are telling him about the QB and his performance IN GAME. He's so damn busy with his play chart he can't pay attention to the actual game on the field. There were a NUMBER of games where I'm sure people were screaming for a change at QB IN GAME due to what we saw happening on the field. This is where Stefanski fails. Give up the play calling and be a leader for your team AS THE GAME PROGRESSES. Basically, isn't that his job? I simply don't trust this guy to be effective as a head coach AND a play caller. And given his "strategy" on offense, I would prefer that responsibility be taken away from him. JMO
So you’re saying Baker should have been benched because he was playing bad?
yes... there were multiple games after the injury where it was obvious he was ineffective.... likely due to the injury.... I really like Baker and hope he comes back to 2020 form.... but he should have been benched this year and allowed to have surgery earlier than what he's getting...
The front office may be all in on Baker or may not be. We know nothing after Berry’s statement that we didn’t know before. As long as he knows there’s a chance he will be forced to start Baker, he must say he is all in. Anything less, however subtle, would be rightly received as evidence they don’t want him. So his statement really means nothing. It’s what he has to say right up until he gets a new QB (if that is what he wants to do).
The front office may be all in on Baker or may not be. We know nothing after Berry’s statement that we didn’t know before. As long as he knows there’s a chance he will be forced to start Baker, he must say he is all in. Anything less, however subtle, would be rightly received as evidence they don’t want him. So his statement really means nothing. It’s what he has to say right up until he gets a new QB (if that is what he wants to do).
So if he says he doesnt want him he doesnt want him and if he says he does want him he doesnt want him. Convenient stance, I guess.
I'll give you a third option you dont want to think about. Maybe, just maybe, he felt that Baker at x% was a better option than Case at 100%. We could argue that stats against the common opponent confirm that, but I am not sure it is totally convincing. Baker had a bad year, next year we will see what he has in the tank.
" Cue up 'vintage NFL films theme music' with John Facenda voiceovers "
The Winds of Change-1974 Cleveland Browns
Originally Posted by Clemdawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I hope he gets another year. I am just not so sure it will happen.
If it doesn't, I think it will be more on Bakers end over the team's. Bakers edge also might hold a bit of a grudge against the coaches, and maybe even the fans. I also think his wife has a lot of influence.
I am just not sure the Mayfield's want to stay in Cleveland. Hopefully I am wrong.
I see it this way:
CLE and BM6 are married for the next year, guaranteed. Both need each other. Each is the best short-term option for the other. And both camps know this. That's why we read short articles about BM6's exit chat ending on a positive note (it's also why I didn't bother with the ever-predictable MKC end-of-year soap opera distraction when it popped up in the threads...).
Ain't no hate in the building, because each needs each other equally for this thing to work. It's business for CLE, and it's business for BM6, as well.
BM6 gets his year to prove it. Earned, in my opinion. CLE gets the same- and another year to explore options (which any responsible FO would/should be doing all the time, anyway).
Both camps stand to profit if next year looks more like Playoff Browns '20. Both camps stand to lose big if either side bails now.
Everything else we dolts have been posting about is bs compared to this reality. That's why I haven't really been "chatting it up" with you guys about this lately.
___________
REALITY BREAK/MANIFESTO MOMENT
This thing (NFL) is an entertainment entity that is only one or two steps removed from WWE. It's like DisneyCorp, Universal Studios, LucasFilms, and even freakkin Carnival Cruises. They are all megalithic corporate entities that deliver a processed entertainment product for mass consumption. And that's what perennially-disappointed Browns fans have failed to understand ever since The Return. The NFL doesn't hate the Browns. It has never hated the Browns.
The Browns haven't given the NFL enough reason to love them...and it's not for lack of opportunity. Hear me out:
The NFL loves nothing more than to script narratives that write themselves for the history books. PIT#7 is this year's project, if they can swing it. It's a long shot, but hey- it's the playoffs- anything can happen... That said, CLE had their chances to knock him off his perch, and the NFL was always there to pick up the story- no matter how it played out.
After the 2002 playoff loss, Browns got plenty of honey. After 2007 (a 10-6 record that needed playoff help), Browns got plenty of hype. After 2021, Browns are being slurrrped as deep-playoff shoe-ins.
At each point, the NFL has been there to help CLE write its story for its fans. When CLE has failed to capitalize on its opportunities, the NFL moved on to help other teams write stories for their fans.
CLE has had their chances to be the next big "Corporate Feel-Good Storyline Project," but they have to take that next step. When they do, they'll get coverage and storylines and coach closeups and yes- I'll say it- even ref's calls in big games for as long as they can keep the feels going. Some teams go one & done. Some create dynasties.
Browns fans have had it wrong all along. Refs/League aren't against the Browns. They've just never been given a reason to be for them yet. String 2-3 seasons together like last year, and I guaran-damn-tee you: CLE would be headed to a storyline resembling PIT or NE or GB. It's what they do. It's their brand: "We'll gin up the hype, but it's your responsibility to bring quality product."
This team is still on the cusp of being The Next Big Sexy Thing, even after this disappointing season. NFL Network did everything they could to set us up at the end of last year. Before injuries. And CoVid. And more injuries. and... you get it.
Folks are close to getting what they've wanted. Team just needs to take that next step. This year was disappointing, but not devastating- and that's an important part of building.
Jim Brown is still alive. The NFL has every reason to help write a story like that, but CLE has to give them that opportunity.
You guys think I'm crazy. I'm not wrong here. They will take the easy way to a great story every time. It's who they are. It's what they do.
[cue up 'vintage NFL films theme music' with John Facenda voiceovers]
Serious, Berry is not an idiot. Based on prior uninjured performance and at the price point bringing back Baker is an absolute non-brainer. I bet anything Baker is the QB next year.
Serious, Berry is not an idiot. Based on prior uninjured performance and at the price point bringing back Baker is an absolute non-brainer. I bet anything Baker is the QB next year.
I am less concerned about Baker being the QB and more concerned about the image we might have with potential players. The local media floating negative stories about Baker and then have 3-4 former QB's talk about how negative the media is to players isn't a good look. I get that media just wants to make money, but if Cleveland fans would quit latching on to the guy not playing so quickly maybe that tripe wouldnt sell so much.
Negativity is not the only image the Browns need to worry about. The image of not using WR's or the TE's skill set while throwing 200 less passes than the top tier teams paint's the image to stay away from Cleveland if you have aspirations of being a #1 WR or 100 receptions or a 1,000 yds receiving because it isn't going to happen in Cleveland with the scheme Stefanski is running and his suspect play calling. I'm betting the word is already out - stay away from Cleveland unless there's a change.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Joe: 70.4% comp percentage. 4,611 yards, 34 TDs, 14 ints, 108.3 rating.... Bengals won the north
Baker: 60.5% comp percentage, 3,010 yards, 17 TDs, 13 ints, 83.1 rating.... Browns finished 3rd in the north...
Joe had a significantly better year...
Yes he undoubtedly had a better year, but lets looks at the circumstances....
Burrows Wideouts:
1. Ja-mar Chase - the fifth pick in last years draft, maybe the best deep threat in football now, and the run away rookie of the year 2. Tee Higgins - the first pick of the second round last year, tremendous talent 3. Tyler Boyd - a second round pick in his sixth year, who has consistently been a near 1000 yard receiver
Burrows RB:
1. Mixon - a second round pick that is one of the best receiving RBs in the league
Burrows Oline:
Largely healthy all year
Burrows Health:
Great all year
Burrows Offense:
Run and Gun all Day
Bakers Wideouts:
1. OBJ - a disgruntled primadonna dumped by NY, who wanted to be traded from the browns before the season started, did not practice all pre-season, skipped the first couple games, played sabotage the next few and then was traded 2. Jarvis - a steady but not dominant NFL receiver in the later part of his career, who was hurt most of the year and likely disgruntled because of his buddy OBJ 3. DPJ - a sixth round pick that is on the edge of being a number 3 for most teams in the NFL, for context OBJ is the number 3 in Los Angeles, he was hurt a lot as well 4. Schwartz- a third round flyer the browns took on an track athlete that was not even a star receiver in college, would start for no one in the NFL, he was hurt a lot as well 5. Higgins - a spacey 5th rounder that is always in trouble with coaches
Bakers RB:
1. Chubb - great runner, average in the passing game 2. Hunt - phenomenal pass catcher, hurt all year
Bakers Offense:
1. conservative, run, don't throw over 10 yards
Bakers Oline:
Because of injuries a patch-work disaster all year
Bakers Health:
Torn Labrum, Cracked shoulder, foot and leg injuries
So switch the situations, how do you think the numbers change????
Negativity is not the only image the Browns need to worry about. The image of not using WR's or the TE's skill set while throwing 200 less passes than the top tier teams paint's the image to stay away from Cleveland if you have aspirations of being a #1 WR or 100 receptions or a 1,000 yds receiving because it isn't going to happen in Cleveland with the scheme Stefanski is running and his suspect play calling. I'm betting the word is already out - stay away from Cleveland unless there's a change.
And yet, less thrown passes and at the same time everyone questioning why he isn't running the ball more...
