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PFF is actually the place that rated the Browns as having the most open WR's on pass plays. It was posted on this very board. When you don't pass a lot to open WR's they aren't going to rate very high.


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PFF is the site that says our WR are trash.


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Yeah, when they're open and you can't find them, they will look like trash.


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That is not how PFF grades work. But ok.


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Then maybe you can explain why they had us rated in having the most open WR's on pass plays and then why they say the WR's are bad? I don't know why. I just know that they did.


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Maybe watch the games?

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Yeah, I mean we can see the entire field, who is open and who isn't by watching the game instead of game film. I mean TV shows us all the angles, right? Even you know better than that.


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Let's see if we can actually try and tie this together. I agree that we don't have strong or great WR's. As a group I think we are weak at WR. Many teams and QB's have at least one WR that can be counted on to catch contested passes. Strong physical WR's that are certainly beyond anything we have on our roster. So it seems we actually agree to that extent. But that's an entirely different animal than having WR's that are open that the QB can't find and identify. Those are two different things.

The fact Baker doesn't have top WR's isn't Bakers fault. The fact he seems to have a lot of trouble going through his progressions to find so many open WR's rests with Baker.

For me at least not everything is Baker's fault. But by any measure there are certainly things that are. This isn't an all or nothing proposition.


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Based on what I know, Baker not playing well does not influence the PFF WR grades significantly - just like a ball that Baker throws that should have been an interception, but wasn't intercepted because the DB dropped an easy catch would be graded negatively by PFF. If that ball by Baker that should have been intercepted but gets tipped and the WR makes a great play to catch the tip and score a TD - Baker gets graded for a interception worthy throw and the WR gets graded positively for making a play. If the WR runs a great route and beats his man all over, and Baker doesn't throw him the ball or misses him, the WR still gets graded positively for route running and separation.

I don't know how you square PFF suggesting we had WR's more open than other teams - I guess I need to know more about exactly what the stat was. Wasn't it something about the Browns having more than 2 WR open on plays? Maybe that's a very low total for the entire NFL and we happen to lead that category, but for the majority of plays where only 1 or 2 WR get open we are much worse? I don't know. It's certainly counter intuitive. Maybe PFF will address it at some point?

What I do know - PFF grades every player, every position, based on their performance on every down they play. Our WR's are not good. I don't know what the grades are for all of them - Landry I expected would have been our best rated WR. If he isn't I would go back and dismiss the grades he got for playing injured or when he came back from injury because he was clearly not right. I'd also be interested in OBJ's grades - both as a Brown and a Ram. just out of curiosity.


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Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
If their is difference of opinions in a "franchise"'QB , much like with Baker
Then he isnt really a franchise QB is he?

Are the Chiefs fans divided on Mahomes...How about Rodgers....are Packer fans torn
How about Burrow in Cincy, how many want him.replaced?
Do the Cards fans think Kyler Murray should be replaced?

The Baker fan club overlooks the fact that he is most turnover prone QB in the league

Packers fans were divided over Favre for almost his entire career.
Guess who Baker has been compared to since his senior year?


Fear us, for we have Hughlett

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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I believe this to be an accurate take on the receivers:

" However bad the quarterback play was for the Cleveland Browns in 2021, the wide receivers position was worse. A group that was supposed to be a strength demonstrated all of the staying power of Corey Coleman, giving way to injuries, regression and even desertion, reducing it one of the least effective on the team alongside defensive tackle and punter while being the most expensive.

The Browns took a calculated risk with Odell Beckham Jr. coming off of the ACL surgery combined with the ineffective play Jarvis Landry showed in 2020 as he battled through multiple injuries, most notably broken ribs. It didn't pay off and the Browns should have moved on from at least Beckham, but likely both Bayou Bengals receivers ahead of this season, freeing up approximately $26.2 million to use either on different wide receivers or otherwise bolster the team.

Beckham's $14.5 million salary being fully guaranteed in 2021 as a result of the injury he suffered the previous season may have been a non-starter for potential trade partners, knowing they'd be on the hook for the full amount. And if the Browns were going to be stuck with trying to make it work with Beckham, they weren't going to move on from Landry, since both could be let go easily after the season, giving them a clean break in terms of contracts and the salary cap.

Recognizing the pitfalls at the position, the Browns saw the 2021 NFL Draft as an avenue to add more speed, mitigate costs and reinforce the position as well as planning ahead for a post LSU reality.

In the second round of the NFL Draft, the Browns, slated tor pick 59th, had three main targets. One of those was wide receiver Rondale Moore, a short, densely built speedster from Purdue. The Arizona Cardinals selected Moore with the 49th pick, prompting the Browns to work the phones to make a move to get one of the other two players they had targeted. Pass rusher Azeez Ojulari, the second prospect the Browns liked, went 50th to the New York Giants. The Browns secured a swap with the Carolina Panthers for the 52nd pick, where they selected the third, linebacker Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah.

Still in search for speed at the receiver position, the Browns would select 20-year old sprinter Anthony Schwartz out of Auburn in round 3, knowing full well he was at least a year away from being a full service wide receiver. He might be able to make the occasional contribution as a jet player and deep shot, but they had no delusions he would come in and be a major contributor.

Unfortunately for Schwartz, he really didn't get much of an offseason as hamstring injuries wiped out training camp and all but the last week of the preseason. That was followed in the regular season by a severe concussion that would take five weeks to fully recover. Even if the Browns were counting on contributions from Schwartz, fate prevented it from happening.

Rashard Higgins, coming off the best season of his career in 2020, turned into a pumpkin in 2021. A player that succeeded in spite of physical limitations last season, because he was precise and reliable proved to be anything but in 2021.

Mayfield's drop-off in play from 2020 and 2021 certainly had an impact, but it only goes so far. The level of volatility is indicative of the problem at the position. Quarterback play is going to help or hurt a position that depends on it for production, but it begs the question what value the player is bringing to the table when the difference is this stark.

Contrast that against Donovan Peoples-Jones, a second year wide receiver thrust into the spotlight this season after Odell Beckham Jr. quit on the team. Jones, a player the Browns seemed to have a good handle on how to employ relative to his development arc became the team's top receiver by default.

He still has plenty to learn as he continues to refine his technique and better understands how to use his size and strength. Nevertheless, Jones ended up not only leading the team in receiving yards, but was the most efficient receiver on the team in spite of any growing pains he may have endured.

Perhaps evidence of just how good Jones can be for this team, everything else about this chart underlines how putrid the Browns wide receiver position was this year.

If this isn't bad enough, running back Nick Chubb averaged 7 yards per target as he chipped in 174 receiving yards this year. That would put him above Beckham, Landry, Schwartz and Higgins. Austin Hooper's catastrophic season is a topic unto itself.

Odell Beckham hid behind his father's social media to blame everyone else for his struggles including Mayfield and head coach Kevin Stefanski on his way out of Cleveland. Unfortunately for Beckham, the change in scenery he forced hasn't been the panacea the malcontented receiver believed it would be. His efficiency with the Los Angeles Rams the rest of the regular season dropped even further to 6.35 yards per target.

Looking ahead to 2022, Beckham resolved his situation for the Browns, freeing them from any further burden either financial or otherwise, but the Browns will have a decision to make on Landry, who is scheduled to earn $16.6 million in 2022. Moving him would cost them $1.5 million in dead cap, freeing up as much as $15.1 million in cap space.

Another year impacted by injury, Landry missed games for the first time in his career as a result of a sprained knee two snaps into the second game of the season. After three games on injured reserve, Landry came back against the Denver Broncos only to suffer a new injury to the same knee. He played through the pain, save for a game missed while on the Reserve/COVID-19 list and the results were the worst season of his career.

Beyond the financial matter that would need to be resolved, likely resulting in an overwhelming pay cut Landry may not be keen on taking, the issue of his role within the team would also be up for discussion. For an offense that utilizes the tight end position as much as the Browns do, the ability to threaten the opponent vertically or otherwise create space becomes critical at wide receiver.

An area Landry has never excelled, he's always been a beneficiary of space created by other players dating back to college, using his intelligence and awareness to exploit holes in the defense. Landry also struggles against man coverage, which has been a glaring issue for the Browns the two seasons Kevin Stefanski has been the head coach.

The contributions Landry makes within the locker room and in helping other wide receivers are valuable, but he also wants to be a factor in the offense, not simply a glorified coach. Finding the sweet spot where he feels validated as a player in his role as well as salary balanced against the goals of the team is going to be a difficult mark to hit.

With Higgins, it's not about the financial implications but deciding if he's worth the roster spot. The Browns like Higgins as a person. He's a positive influence in the locker room. They may re-sign him for that reason, but the spot wouldn't be guaranteed. Higgins would have to earn it in camp.

He's become as confounding and unpredictable as a crafty left handed relief pitcher. Two of the last four seasons, he's been an asset on the field contrasted against two years where he's been a non-factor, even forgettable. Perhaps given the fact it will be an even numbered year, Higgins is due to be effective again.

As it currently stands, the only wide receivers that are safe for the Browns headed into the 2022 season are Donovan Peoples-Jones, the best on the team and Anthony Schwartz, the team's third round pick from the most recent NFL Draft. Even as Schwartz has potential, the Browns cannot go into next season penciling Schwartz in as a featured part of their offense. He's going to have to prove himself.

Factoring in what Demetric Felton can do both as a running back and wide receiver, the Browns will be in the market for at least three new options acquired through the draft or from other teams in the coming offseason.

Regardless of who plays quarterback for the Browns next season, wide receiver has limited what this offense can achieve and will be a priority, one that general manager Andrew Berry will attack with similar ferocity to the the offensive line ahead of the 2019 season and secondary for 2020."


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
No problem. It's a great read. Mayfield being able to play from the pocket needs to happen in order for him and the team succeed.

But can he see the field well enough, or can he do so without having a tons of balls batted down?


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Nice post. I don't really disagree, on the players. My question is, is replacing 2-3-4 players what is needed at the receiver position?

Yes, I think we all know some players like Landry won't be back, and the others are your average, run of the mill receivers.

The broader question is will it do much good if the QB can't see them or doesn't throw them a catchable ball?


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I don't see the problem all have with Baker. He played great without the injury and played crappy with the injury.

Posters say but he claimed to be good to go so we should throw him under the bus on him playing bad and it is how we should judge him. Yeah if you are a Steeler, Raven, Bengal fan. The guy sucked it up and said he was good to go as it was made obvious to him that he was the better chance to win even injured so he played injured and now fans out there want to hold him to that playing with injury. Where is the common sense here.

If he was selfish he would have shut down and got the surgery as soon as the swelling went down and it was obvious that there was a torn Labrum involved. : forcing an early end to the Browns season. So for the owners to make money, for the HC to have a chance and win some games but they would have to coach us into those wins. But more important for us fans and this is what happens in return... willynilly even myself thinking out loud that Ski put Baker in a bad way so he can get him out of town. The kid without injuries OBJ's dad or not he would play great football for us. I shake my head at you guys for thinking about getting rid of Baker. If he doesn't give up and plays injured then he should play like a pro bowl QB. I cannot believe how much some of you hate Baker oh that's right he plant the OK flag insulting the Buckeye nation.


bring in a BEAST of a TE and a DT then BPA in the draft....team gets healthy we should be good - Prayers for a positive surgery for Baker. Time for the draft again.
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Good read and pretty fair I would say. Hope it is a position we can flip from a weakness to a strength this offseason. While a boss ILB would be awesome on D - the need for a genuine #1 WR is probably the teams biggest need right now. WR in general - but having a reliable go to WR is huge.


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I think its a chicken/egg deal. Are the receivers that bad because of mayfield or is Baker this bad because of the receivers. We've seen evidence of both. Problem is I'm not sure theres a WR worth keeping after what we saw this year. Love Landry, but almost 17 mil for that production is Andre Rison type shenanigans. I think whether or not he comes back is 100% dependent on him restructuring that deal. Problem is we have too many WR that have the same skill set.. I don't agree with the article about DNP or Schwartz, theres tons of Schwartz's bagging groceries and washing cars.. I don't see him making it out of camp. DNP being our best receiver shows how bad that unit really was. He's very streaky, ok for a 4/5 receiver but not your supposed #1, we have to get that #1 this year. Someone who can make contested catches and make plays with the ball.


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Originally Posted by leadtheway
Someone who can make contested catches and make plays with the ball.

What is that such thing you speak of? We need more than (1) of those. Teams in our division alone have multiples of those guys.

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The team underachieved.

A GM has to be honest in his evaluation. It has nothing to do with conspiracy. Nothing at all.

Coaches try to win. When you don't. You get fired.

I started a thread titled "what went wrong." Some wanted to lay all the blame on Baker. Any other reasons were labled as excuses.

Obviously many things went wrong. A roster has 53 players plus a "practice squad." Add an entire group of coaches and the front office.

All must share the blame. Yet we won 8 games and for sure left at least two wins on the field. Those two plus games were the difference in going to the playoffs.

There is no doubt that the receivers unit must be overhauled. In addition the play at quarterback must improve.

No matter if you believe that Baker will improve or if you believe Baker has to go. The performance from the quarterback position must improve.

As it stands today Baker and Keenum are under contract. Until something gets done we should assume that Baker will be the starter next year.

I guess it should be assumed Keenum will return as well.

If there are no changes in the quarterback room? Then we have to figure that other positions groups will change. Normally a third of the roster changes.

The analytics group of the Browns have a large budget. They are being paid for information that is expected to help.

Numbers are crunched and position groups are analyzed. Priorities are established.

I expect that the 2022 Browns will look quite a bit different come the last cut day.

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Baker played ok before the injury. Let's not fool ourselves. Just because a QB completes
A high % of his passes doesnt make him great nor does it totally define
His body of work.
He was healthy vs the Chiefs and Texans. Not exactly formdible defenses
At the start of the 2021 season.
Baker played average at best in 2021.
He never threw for more than 2 TDs passes in a single game.
He had what 2-300 yd passing games all year
His TD to INT ratio was among worst in the league.
He wet the bed in the 4th quarter when the Browns needed him
To justify why he was drafted over Josh Allen.

Its 2022. DCs and scouting departments have Mayfield figured out
Keep him in the pocket cause he is vertically challenged height wise
Load the box up and make him beat you facing single coverage
What % of throws over 30 yds did he complete this year?
Baker doesnt have the courage for the lack of a better word to challenge
Secondarys if his target isnt totally wide open.
Baker is too thin skinned. He rather complete safe throws within 7 to.10 yds
That why he cant get face the fire from the fans and media for INTs
Yet somehow he threw conservative all year and still led the league in INTs

Baker is not the best QB of his draft class.
Thats why he has only 1 playoff appearance and Allen and Jackson have 3 each

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Baker played less than two games before being injured. Hardly a big enough sample.

I have yet to see a valid reason why Baker was not throwing to open receivers because of the injury.

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So basically the goal posts change as required to shed Baker in a bad light? People bemoan his low completion % - and then when you point to 80% completion the criteria change to something else. Got it.

Baker struggled this year - once he was injured. Let's see him healthy and see if he can be a top 5 QB in the NFL - again.


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Fairly written article with one exception . It didn't mention Stefanski's culpability's . You design passing routes to take advantage of what the opposing Defence gives you. Stefanski didn't.

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Originally Posted by waterdawg
Fairly written article with one exception . It didn't mention Stefanski's culpability's . You design passing routes to take advantage of what the opposing Defence gives you. Stefanski didn't.
Honestly it seemed like a mixed bag of extremes - some games and plays it seems everything was genius. Other games and stretches of games it was like we ran right into the defense's strengths and we had WR running really close to each other. And then we had the 3 TE sets ... but that might have been influenced by injury as much as anything.


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Originally Posted by waterdawg
Fairly written article with one exception . It didn't mention Stefanski's culpability's . You design passing routes to take advantage of what the opposing Defence gives you. Stefanski didn't.

He should of had three or more receivers open less?

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In fairness isolating two games rather than his body of work is just as slanted as anything else.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
In fairness isolating two games rather than his body of work is just as slanted as anything else.

Two games in which we faced a Kansas City that was horrible at the time and the Texans.

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I just feel that trying to make a case based on two games is foolish. QB's have streaks where they look great and times when they don't. Anecdotal evidence based on a very small body of work means nothing.

If you look at last season, the last half of the regular season where people claim Baker was so great. Memories can sometimes play tricks on people. Over that eight game span our O scored 10 points against the Texans, 22 points against the Eagles, 20 points against the Giants and 16 points against the Jets. That shows an O that fluctuates, not one that is consistent. Even in the playoff games. In the wildcard round we put up 48 against the Steelers. The very next week we put up 17 against the Chiefs.

Now I have no idea how the season would have played out had Baker stayed healthy. I would certainly have bet our O would have been much more productive. I know the injuries certainly hampered Baker. But how much and how many aspects of his game it influenced, I have no idea. But neither do those claiming they do.


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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
In fairness isolating two games rather than his body of work is just as slanted as anything else.

Two games in which we faced a Kansas City that was horrible at the time and the Texans.

Tyrann Mathieu and Frank Clark were also out that game.

More importantly, when the Browns needed a score to win the game they went:

3 plays, 3 yards - Punt

5 Plays, 31 yards - Interception

Game over.


Browns Receiving Grade rank per PFF:

2021: 27th
2020: 11th

Same pass catchers outside of addition of Schwartz and loss of Hodge. Hodge must've meant a lot to this team!
OBJ played 6 games in 2020 and 6 games in 2021.

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This stat shows the percentage of pressures that turn into sacks.

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Davis Mills of the Texans had a better year than Baker.
And Mills had a worse oline worse RBs worse everything around him.

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538 on Baker:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...terback-asking-for-the-cleveland-browns/

I’d post good stuff about Baker. . . but it doesn’t seem to exist at this point.

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Confidence shattered. Baker seeing ghosts and double clutching.

I’d be curious what it was in 2019. He seemed to be seeing ghosts and walking into sacks that year as well.

What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.




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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Confidence shattered. Baker seeing ghosts and double clutching.

Yup. And no one has explained what happened other than he was injured. Which makes me not want a QB who loses all his confidence if he’s injured.

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Pretty brutal.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
In fairness isolating two games rather than his body of work is just as slanted as anything else.

Well it would be - except there is a significant and dramatic difference between what happened in those two games and after, and what was different about those two games and after. And the 2 games actually are seamless with the 9 games before them from last season where Baker played at what some might be considered an acceptable level. I know that some of the Baker haters might not feel that playing like a top 5 QB in the entire NFL is good enough - but most might find it passable. Maybe.

And regards my comment that you responded to - it was in reply to someone who was specifically only talking about those 2 games. Right? So talking specifically about those 2 games in response to someone who basically said Baker didn't do much in those specific 2 games ... would seem appropriate. yes?

I mean we've had this discussion - and done it to death. Baker was hurt this year. And the constant negative bombardment on his crappy play this year is old. Now apparently David Mills is better than an injured Baker. Who knew? Who cares?


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Yes it is. Again, I would give Baker another year when healthy. If it's more of the same then something will have to be done. In the meantime, as I stated in a previous post, Mitch Trubisky might be a good pickup. He had some success in Chicago and that is another place where QB's get beat up. A fresh start here might be just what he needs and having him as a backup is good insurance if nothing else. JMO

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Originally Posted by cfrs15


Pretty brutal.

Sure is .... just imagine what Crab Boy's stats would be if he'd had 4 HC in 3 years. 4 OC. Hue Jackson and Freddie as a coach --- AND played 16 games with a Torn Labarum. Would definitely be very very brutal.


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There is nothing "seamless" about the last nine games of last year and the first two games of this year. It's not even close. We scored 17 points against the chiefs defense. 16 points against the Jets and 20 points against the Giants. And Baker didn't throw anywhere close to 80% in that stretch of games either. That's why using a very small window like 2 games doesn't really mean anything.

I think he played at an acceptable level overall during that 9 game stretch. But it wasn't some 9 game stretch of fabulous football. And the numbers from that stretch weren't anywhere close to the first two games this year. There's no actual comparison there.


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Are you saying Baker played acceptable last year for those 9 games... And the two games this year were outliers and much better. But 2 games is not a sample size worth referencing?


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During that 9 game stretch:

Baker 200/314 -> 63.7%.
15 TDs/2 Ints.
265 Yards per game.
28.5 points per game.

As for the Jets and Giants games

Jets - Missing ALL WRs available for that game.
Giants - 27/32, 297 yds, 2 TDs, and 0 Ints.

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