DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski looking to rid us of Baker???

You are so adamant to blame baker it's kinda disturbing. He was injured. He played like a different qb before he was injured. He had the best completion %in the nfl.

Hopefully the kid gets healthy and gets us to the playoffs next year. Otherwise. It will be another rebuild or a retread qb who is half as good of a qb that we need to get to the playoffs.

Baker sucked. The difference here is he was fully committed.

I also didn't say he was intentionally dropping passes. I just wonder if he was giving full effort. He had steaks of games where he dropped multiple passes that hit him in the chest. Now he's found his hands... and all that was going on while he was trying to get out. There's too much smoke, imo.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/dawgpo...ell-beckham-cant-stop-dropping-ball/amp/

After a couple of huge drops by Odell Beckham, Jr. on fourth down this season, the Cleveland Browns receiver decided he needed to address this issue. Which he claimed was a non-issue.

Beckham discussed several things including his desire to win a championship — which is stronger than wanting the ball in his hands according to OBJ.


☰


Odell Beckham can’t stop dropping the ball
by Randy Gurzi14w ago
Despite his claims about not dropping the ball, Odell Beckham, Jr. is struggling with butterfingers in 2021


After a couple of huge drops by Odell Beckham, Jr. on fourth down this season, the Cleveland Browns receiver decided he needed to address this issue. Which he claimed was a non-issue.

Beckham discussed several things including his desire to win a championship — which is stronger than wanting the ball in his hands according to OBJ.


But what really stood out was his comment about his hands being like “Purell,” meaning they were 99.9 percent effective.

“I always joke all the time, but my hands are like Purell, 99.9 percent (effective). I’m most likely going to make the catch every time. It’s the only ball you’ve seen on the ground this year.” — Beckham on his recent drops


Fast forward to Thursday night and the Browns as a team are playing well. They jumped out to a 10-0 lead on the strength of D’Ernest Johnson running the ball as well as a long kick from Chase McLaughlin — who was unbothered by the wind in First Energy Stadium.

However, there was also another bad drop from Odell Beckham who was unable to haul in a pass from Case Keenum on second-and-13 despite it hitting him right in the hands.


The play was eerily similar to the previous drops from Odell, although this one was at least on a second down and not a fourth down.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/01/29/obj-discouraged-cleveland-to-von-miller-last-offseason/

It was during that recovery time between seasons that at least one other player had an idea that Beckham was not happy in Cleveland. Von Miller, speaking to Sports Illustrated, shared what the receiver told him while the two were rehabbing together:

Almost every day, they wondered: Wouldn’t it be wild if, one day, somehow, some way, they played for the same team?

Maybe in Ohio, Miller wondered, daydreaming out loud.

“Don’t come to Cleveland,” Miller says Beckham told him.



If OBJ did his job, the team would have e been a lot better off. Instead, he was busy scuttling the ship AND telling players not to come to Cleveland.


This includes him not trying to catch the ball or dropping it because he wanted out at all costs.

Why won’t you give OBJ the same injury excuse you giving baker?

Obj came back not 100%, hurt his shoulder and still played through it.

That’s to you. Ooo sorry but that doesn’t sound like a guy who’s not fully committed. Just cause you don’t like where you’re at doesn’t mean you’re not committed to your job. Seems like the browns players have a different opinion than you.

But since we’re speculating, let’s speculate. We’ve all read and acknowledged that obj being released had a huge negative effect on the locker room.

Who would the browns players be more upset about being released from the team mid season: OBJ or baker?

Hmm….

Fate, that’s what I mean by standard. It’s like baker was the only dude out there playing hurt. Screw all the other players that were out there playing hurt. Only baker gets that excuse.

Thinking that OBJ was dropping passes in game on purpose is asinine.

OBJ telling good football players not to come to Cleveland when is asinine.

I absolutely believe he intentionally didn't give his best effort which led to drops etc.

OBJ is 1 couch through a hotel window from being AB.

Agreed.

Jimmy G just showed why being a run first offense plays hell with your team when you fall behind. Great as a game manager - poor as a QB when trying to come from behind. Stefanski is turning Mayfield into exactly that type of QB. You'll win some games but when it comes time to move the team through the air when you're losing or need a 2-minute drill, the team instantly becomes very suspect. If the QB isn't in a rhythm and building chemistry with his receivers on a weekly basis, the team is screwed when forced to pass. The LARams shut down the run and dared Jimmy G to beat them through the air. Outscored 13-0 in the 4th quarter sealed their fate because they couldn't move the ball through the air. Is this what we really want in Cleveland? That's what you're going to get with the Stefanski scheme.

Why haven’t you brought this up before?

Two mediocre QBs capable of stringing some good games together followed by clunkers. Garoppolo and Mayfield are defined by their inconsistent QB play.

Stefanski maximized Baker in second half of 2020. Shanahan has maximized Garoppolo. Vrabel has maximized Tannehill. The scheme is what has helped these very average QBs find some level of success.

If Baker was not the #1 draft pick for the Browns, the majority of fans would be calling him a bust and comparing him to Mark Sanchez.

Like the Rams did to SF, opponents will always take their chances against Baker in the closing moments to beat them and stack the box. Baker's QBR in the 4th quarter over his career is abysmal.

Stefanskis offense is really not to.figure out. Limit the runs on 1st down
Force the QB to beat you on 3rd and long.
Hey to break it to Mayfield fans, but his existence of excellance is based
On run execution. He isnt a QB that can throw on 1st and 2nd downs
And move the chains. He needs a running game to be effective
And he still cant beat defenses in the 4th q.
People bring up.his completion % in the 1st 2-games of the year
Any QB can complete a high % of passes if all he throws is underneath stuff
How many times did Mayfield ever really stress a secondary with his
Pop.gun arm ?

I tend to agree. Maybe not so much about Winston smoking him, but the drama for sure. I think the way to go with Baker is to be all in or trade him for whatever some team is willing to pay.

I think we need to stick with baker at this point. See exactly how much the injury played a role. To protect our position, I would build draft picks for next year in the event we need to draft a rookie by trading whatever is required to get a top rated QB. I would love to see us trade down in round 1 to pick up a 1st next year. I would like to go in to next years draft with two 1sts and two 2nds...that will take trading back in both rounds this year.

If QB really is our problem, then trading back isn't going to hurt this years team standing all that much because you are still going to have QB problems. Adding a receiver as an example isn't going to improve Baker all that much if Baker is the problem.

I've seen this kind of thing before. I am curious, does every QB whose first 4 years are like this become a winner? A top-tier, consistently take his team deep into the playoffs QB? Or is this cherry-picked?

Swish - I've said it before. No-one is saying Baker wasn't bad this year. I think he was absolutely bottom tier. What you seem to be doing is the same thing that Vers used to do and others now too - if, while discussing the QB play, we also point out other additional factors that clearly have an impact on his play - injuries, WR talent, play calling and things like leaving TJ Watt one on one with a rookie RT ... you leap to the conclusion that people are trying to excuse or deflect away from Baker and what he did. I don't think that's true.

Other than saying with the injuries and harness we did not get to learn anything about Baker for 16 games this (my opinion) year - everything else is just in addition to Baker not playing well. Two things are not mutually exclusive. Baker was missing open WR - but our WR are overall were simply not good. In Landry's case who has traditionally been our best WR - he was hampered by injury just like Baker, and he came back about 3 weeks too soon. Baker not reading a D or holding the ball too long is not mutually exclusive to calling out bad play calling from Stefanski and passing 3 times to end a game where Chubb was running for nearly 7 yards per carry.

Regards the running backs - you can choose whatever wording you like - Chubb is a top 1-2-3 RB in the NFL. Mixon is a top 5 RB. Chubb is better than Mixon - by how much, who knows. You said our OL is better than Cinci's to support your Bakler take - but you don't want to extend the same benefit to Chubb? . . . It is only you that has said posters will blame RB's for Baker's performance. It's been like your 'hot take' for weeks and you have posted that comment a dozen times. . . . Saying Mixon is not far behind Chubb is not what you tried to suggest it was. And no-one but you is talking about trashing our RB's.

At the end of the day - when healthy Baker played very well in consecutive games - for 9 games last season and 2 games this season. He then got hurt. You clearly have decided that the 11 games were an anomaly or that anyone could do what he did, or yuou've decided that with a torn labarum and a broken humerus and wearing a harness you can see the 'real Baker' and all his flaws ... I disagree. The rest is just noise.

Why do people keep saying Baker played good in the first KC game this year? When his team needed him the most, he failed.

That's the story of his career so far.

This is a problem with baker (on top of the poor play LOL). It’s that even when he was playing well, he still rarely gets it done in the clutch. Wasn’t there a stat floating around somewhere about him being like 2-17 with game winning drive chances?

It's funny. Say something enough times and people believe it without question. In the KC game - Halfway through the 4th Q the defense gave up two TD's in the space of less than 3 minutes, to surrender a 29-20 Cleveland lead. Clearly that was one of Baker's worst performances. Ever.

I'd give OBJ the same injury excuse (or vice-versa) if Baker had magically popped back up and started playing well again... ala pro soccer diving. This is how I view OBJ magically finding his hands again, learning a playbook in record time, and going up for contested catches instead of making business decisions.

The recent news about OBJ not wanting to be in Cleveland (added to the stuff we knew from before), is having me go back and re-assess a lot about his time here.

Who cares what the defense did or that Chubb fumbled or that the rubber mallet fumbled. Baker had a chance to win the game at the end and failed. He does this repeatedly.

Have you been watching the playoffs? Just about every game has come down to the last minute. There are all kinds of circumstances that lead to that and often times it's other parts of the team's mistakes that put their QB in that last minute game situation. The QBs that deliver are in the playoffs. The ones that don't aren't. That is literally the NFL in a nutshell.

If we have to resort to blaming the rest of the team for making mistakes that put the QB in a situation to have to lead a game winning drive then we are reinforcing the fact that said QB can only win if everything is perfect. That's not a good QB.

How many games, prior to this year, where we would go score "too soon", and watch the defense give the game away? I seem to recall at least a few.

Regarding the first and third paragraphs, you're saying mistakes from the rest of the team don't matter... and then turn around and talk about other people "blaming the rest of the team". That's hilarious.

And what exactly did you see from JimmyG's performance in the NFC title game?

Honestly I don't know that it is worth the time anymore - it's like children bickering. And I include myself in that because I've said my piece a dozen times and I need to stop. However - on your post here, there are multiple layers to this attitude that only Baker can win the games, and if he does everything to win the game and then there are 2 TD's given up by the D in 3 minutes and it's still Baker's loss.

But something I would add - and it goes to a point Bone just mentioned, there are definitely a couple of posters that think Stefanski's offense limits the ability of the team to win, and the KS offense is the #1 problem with our O. We've seen a lot of those posts and how WR's aren't going to want to play in this offense because it is so vanilla and doesn't let WR's shine. (That's a poor summary but I'm not getting deep into it.) .... I disagree - We've seen the offense be more than good enough last year. Generally speaking. However - in a game like the KC loss - Baker and Stefanski had the chance to come back after those 2 late TD's by KC. The issue I have had with Stefanski is that he gets predictable and conservative, OR - he gets cute and simply gets away what we do really well. AND we have a lack of adjustments in the second halves of games where we led and then suddenly the D stops us from doing what worked in the first half. How many games have we come out with a beautiful scripted first drive (or 2) and then watched us just not be able to do anything again. Late in games like the KC game, we don't have a playbook that would let us do what the Bills and KC did last week and score quickly. Do we score quickly with some plays through the season? Yes. But we don't have a playbook or play caller that seems to give Baker and the team the best chance to come back in those situations. Once again - this is a multi level issue because this year KS has been hampered in his p[lay calling through injury, but I think most would agree we have seen some tendencies that need to be improved.

OK. For a final wrap up, I don't think we learned anything this year with Baker. He was hurt. He played like garbage, his confidence deteriorated, he made bad plays and bad reads. I don't think we learned a thing about him on this year, other than he is a tough S.O.B. I believe that when Baker has played truly bad - it was the Kitchens year, it was KS changing his footwork and a new playbook, and when he was hurt this year. I don't think that's Baker's ceiling or level. Good Baker turned a 1-31 team around, and he went 9 games and won a playoff game while being graded as the 5th best QB in the NFL. I don't think Baker is the 5th best QB in the NFL - but I think his ceiling leans that direction, not when he has played his worst.

Jarvis did just fine in this offense. DPJ is coming along nicely.

I don't discount the arguments that the offense isn't exactly set up to feature the talent of a guy like OBJ. I think any legit WR that comes here needs to be ok with the idea that they are simply a cog in the offense. Same for QB, though that's not something we would generally need to worry about, because those QBs aren't available very often. I do think this offense de-emphasizes the QB position. If I have to pick between KS and his offense vs any combination of Baker, OBJ and even Jarvis and Njoku, I'm picking Stefanski and his offense. I think it will eventually set us up for success. I think Baker can do well in this offense if he's healthy, but the fact is the offense doesn't need a world-beater at QB... and that puts us at an advantage over everyone who doesn't have a future HOF guy at the position (very few).

I said earlier this year that this coming off-season will tell us a LOT about our FO. We have Jarvis and Njoku decisions right now with Baker, Hunt on the horizon... all big contributors that were brought in by previous regime and may or may not fit with what the offense is or is intended to be.

Agree with you both, and jfan makes some great points on this subject as well as putting the timeline into perspective, but I'm much more on Pit's side of the fence here.

We were eliminated from the playoffs 7 days before the end of the season. Not just a wild-card, looking forward to playing a high-seed; but the division with a playoff game in Cleveland. Second year coach and second year GM are not pulling 4th year QB to insert back-up into a dysfunctional offense. No go-to receiver, constant injuries at skill positions, no cohesion and a patchwork OL.

To say they "should have" pulled Mayfield is 100% accurate, but the enemy walking side by side with Baker was a shot at the division that never seemed to go away. Seemed all you had to do is show up with a winning record at the end... and we just needed Mayfield (and the rest of the team) to fight and claw to do it.

Notice how they turned the conversation towards OBJ again? That's their go to when defending Baker. Look, Baker was injured this season and like many I'm not going to try and judge him based on this season. This FO saw enough in Baker to pick up his fifth year option but not enough confidence in him to negotiate a long term extension with him. So much like myself they don't think Baker is bad but they aren't yet convinced. They want to see another year of him before making a final decision. I don't blame them. He's not proven himself to be the second coming some try to make him out to be and he's not a bag of trash like some would make him out to be.

So everyone saying get rid of him and move on do not see what this FO sees. Everyone saying he's the answer disagrees with the FO and doesn't see what the FO sees or he would have already gotten a contract externsion.

To the entire OBJ thing it's hilarious. They were saying, "we are better without him". That was proven to be false. So they then switched up to "he played bad on purpose".

So their opinion has shifted to OBJ hurt his own value and career on purpose. That he purposefully undermined himself and his future earning potential just to screw the Browns. No rational thinking person could believe that.

It's very hard to conclude you should have pulled your starting QB when you're still in the playoff hunt with him as your starter. As soon as we were eliminated Baker sat the last game and got his surgery. They say hindsight is 20/20 but even in hindsight pulling your starter while you're still in the playoff hunt isn't as cut and dry of a decision as some seem to make it out to be. Only after the season was concluded and we didn't make the playoffs does it look like an easy decision.

Yep. Hindsight says best case scenario would have been Cincy running away with the division and the Browns shutting down Baker mid-season. That probably would make next week's match-up more palatable as well lol.

Ahhh the hypothetical...Where would the Browns be and would this conversation happen if Anthony Schwartz didn't stop his route or dove for the ball?

I personally believe that every position on an offense has an effect on the play of the other positions. The WRs affect the play of the QB. The QB affects the WRs. The OTs affect the QB. And so on.

The idea that any position in an NFL offense operates in a vacuum, is simply not realistic. They all influence and affect each other to varying degrees.

I don’t blame Baker, the same as I don’t blame the WRs, nor any other player. Had a few more of Baker’s passes been on the money, not a lot, say 5, and had the WRs dropped 5 fewer passes, and especially, had 5 more kicks been good, they would be in the playoffs.

It sure would. lol

Next week is conflicted for me. We beat the Bengals twice this past season so it would kind of be a feather in our cap to have beaten the Super Bowel winner twice. At the same time I feel bad that a good QB like Stafford was stuck in Detroit all of those years which stopped him from winning and getting the recognition he deserved. To say I don't really care who wins would be an understatement.

Since 1998, there has been 44 QB's drafted within the first 16 picks of the draft or 1/2 of the league. Since I am only looking at the first 4-years, no QB's are listed from after the 2018 draft. The first thing I looked at was what the state of the team was the previous 2-years. What kind of situation (W/L) wise was the new QB facing once they were drafted and then what was the team's record after their first 4-year's:

1. 1999 Couch CLE (New Franchise) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 19-32)
2. 2002 David Carr HOU (New Franchise) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 16-43)
3. 2018 Mayfield CLE (1-31) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 29-30 Plus 1-1 in playoffs)
4. 2010 Bradford STL (4-29) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 18-30-1)
5. 2007 Russell OAK (6-26) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 7-18)
6. 2014 Bortles JAX (6-26) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 21-40 plus 2-1 in playoffs)
7. 2015 Winston TBB (6-26) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 21-33)
8. 2009 Stafford DET (7-25) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 17-28 plus 1-1 in playoffs)
9. 1999 McNown CHI (8-24) #12 overall (first 4-year's record 3-12)
10. 2003 Palmer CIN (8-24) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 32-29 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
11. 2001 Vick ATL (9-23) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 23-12-1 plus 2-2 in playoffs)
12. 2005 Smith SFO (9-23) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 11-19)
13. 2006 Young TEN (9-23) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 26-13 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
14. 2015 Mariota TEN (9-23) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 27-28 plus 1-1 in playoffs)
15. 2017 Trubisky CHI (9-23) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 29-21 plus 0-2 in playoffs)
16. 1999 McNabb PHI (9-22-1) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 31-17 plus 4-3 in playoffs)
17. 1999 Akili Smith CIN (10-22) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 3-14)
18. 2011 Newton CAR (10-22) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 30-31-1 plus 1-2 in playoffs)
19. 2018 Darnold NYJ (10-22) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 17-32)
20. 2002 Harrington DET (11-21) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 18-37)
21. 2006 Leinart ARI (11-21) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 7-10)
22. 2008 Ryan ATL (11-21) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 43-19 plus 0-3 in playoffs)
23. 2012 Griffin III WAS (11-21) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 15-25 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
24. 1998 P. Manning IND (12-20) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 32-32 plus 0-2 in playoffs)
25. 1998 Leaf SDC (12-20) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 4-17)
26. 2003 Leftwich JAX (12-20) #7 overall (first 4-year's record 24-20 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
27. 2004 Rivers NYG to SDC (12-20) #4 overall (first 4-year's record 25-7 plus 3-2 in playoffs)
28. 2012 Luck IND (12-20) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 35-20 plus 3-3 in playoffs)
29. 2013 Manuel BUF (12-20) #16 overall (first 4-year's record 8-11)
30. 2009 Sanchez NYJ (13-19) #5 overall (first 4-year's record 33-29 plus 4-2 in playoffs)
31. 2012 Tannehill MIA (13-19) #8 overall (first 4-year's record 29-35)
32. 2016 Goff LAR (13-19) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 33-21 plus 2-2 in playoffs)
33. 2004 E. Manning SDC to NYG (14-18) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 30-25 plus 4-2 in playoffs)
34. 2011 Locker TEN (14-18) #8 overall (first 4-year's record 9-14)
35. 2011 Gabbert JAX (15-17) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 5-22)
36. 2018 Rozen ARI (15-16-1) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 3-13)
37. 2018 Allen BUF (16-16) #7 overall (first 4-year's record 39-21 plus 6-6 in playoffs)
38. 2004 Roethlisberger PIT (16-15-1) #11 overall (first 4-year's record 39-16 plus 5-2 in playoffs)
39. 2016 Wentz PHI (17-15) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 32-24 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
40. 2011 Ponder MIN (18-14) #12 overall (first 4-year''s record 14-21-1)
41. 2017 Watson HOU (18-14) #12 overall (first 4-year's record 28-25 plus 1-2 in playoffs)
42. 2006 Cutler DEN (23-9) #11 overall (first 4-year's record 24-29)
43. 2017 Mahomes KCC (23-9) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 38-8 plus 6-2 in playoffs)
44. 1999 Culpepper MIN (24-8) #11 overall (first 4-year's record 21-22 plus 1-1 in playoffs)

As you can see, no QB since 1998 has come to a franchise through the draft with a worst W/L record the previous two years than what Mayfield experienced coming to Cleveland. Add to that fact that he has had 3 different head coaches in 4-years and 4 offensive coordinators the chance for failure greatly increases.

If you look at some of the other stats like interceptions per attempt, Mayfield's 1/34.357 could surely use some improvement. However, in comparison, Stafford's number was 1/35.151, Carson Palmer was 1/32.317, P. Manning was 1/27.481, Goff 1/21.482, E. Manning 1/28.203, Newton 1/35.611, Alex Smith 1/25.806 and Roethlisberger was 1/26.592. That's like 9 Super Bowl appearances by guys who performed at or worst than Mayfield the first 4-years on the frequency of interceptions per pass attempt.

In you look at completion Pct for their first four years, Mayfield is at 61.590%. Some notables that have performed at a lower level their first 4-years: McNabb 56.864%, Stafford 59.796%, Newton 59.490%, Ryan 60.929%, P. Manning 60.961%, Rivers 60.842%, Luck 58.119%, and E. Manning 54.681% with the best being Watson at 67.848%.

What about 4th qtr comebacks. Mayfield has had 6 in his first 4-years. Those notables who have also only had 6: Wentz, Mahomes, Goff, McNabb, Vick, Bradford and Rivers only had 5. In fact, it might surprise you that the top QB in their first 4-years for 4th Qtr comebacks is Matt Ryan with 11.

How about game winning drives? Mayfield has actually had 7 during his first 4-years. Notables that had fewer during their first 4 years: Rivers 5, McNabb 6, Alex Smith 6, Vick 6, and Mahomes had 7. The top Game Winning Drive leader during their first 4-years was Matt Ryan with 16 then Luck with 13.

1. I brought OBJ because it came out (from his own current teammate on the Rams) that Miller said that OBJ told him not to come to CLE and who knows what else. OBJ was caught telling other team players and coaches to come and get him.

2. OBJ gave the least effort possible. He frequently ran the wrong routes after having the same playbook for years. That is literally the definition of playing badly on purpose.

3. Last year was basically a wasted year for Baker. He needs to get healthy in the offseason and we can see what is going on with him next year. Hopefully, he gets healthy and his year goes how last year started off. Otherwise, he will be gone and we will be trading for a QB or drafting one.

Fate are you still not getting the truth that the Browns were eliminated from the playoffs before they kicked off on mnf to play Pittsburgh, or do you get it because your bolded "7 days" . makes it unclear.
but to be clear. The Browns would not have made the playoffs if they had beaten Pittsburgh.
With still 2 full games to play, the Browns were eliminated from the playoffs, it was not a one game could have. Basically after the Browns lost to the Raiders, and the remainder of that week played out, the Browns were eliminated from the playoffs,
even before they kicked off against the Steelers on Monday night football.

A lot of info. I will need to find some time to digest that.

I hope you didn't have to call in sick for the afternoon to pull that together

Actually, you are both wrong. The Browns lost to the Raiders on DEC 20th. The Browns proceeded to lose on DEC 25th a Sat to the Green Bay Packers. Before the Browns had a chance to play their next game on Monday, the Browns were officially eliminated by the Sunday results.

First, the Cincinnati Bengals clinched the AFC North crown with a late-game win against the Kansas City Chiefs. The division was the most likely route for the Browns playoff chances. Had the Bengals lost, Cleveland would have controlled their own playoff destiny and won the division with two victories.

The Cincinnati win left the Browns with a very small chance for the playoffs but required a variety of games to fall their way. Instead, the first game that the team needed went against them with the Los Angeles Chargers defeating the Denver Broncos in the 4 PM window Sunday.

Now there's something else that really pizzed me off!

How is it that this logic is never applied to the running back and O line, as in, an improved OL would never help a Rb,
or this logic is never applied to the pass rush and pass coverage, as in, an improved pass rush would never help the Db's

As Long as the Browns can go another 50 years and never get the passing game figured out, never have a Quarterback and Wide Receivers, on the same team at the same time.
I mean, its working out so well not being able to pass the ball, the Browns have so many titles, so many championship rings, that it's becoming old hat.
(keep putting Wr's at the bottom of the priority list) (Corey Coleman didn't work out, so wait a dozen years.)

The fact he didn't want to be here is something I don't really think anyone is trying to dispute.


The playbook for years? I think you may wish to rethink that. Last year was the first year in Stefanski's system. It was an entirely different playbook than the year before.

That's your opinion and not a fact. What I think is a far more likely scenario is that to some degree you're right and to some degree you're wrong. I don't believe anyone who feels they are at a dead end job or is in a position where they feel they have to work where they don't want to gives 100%. Not so much from an intentional standpoint but they just aren't motivated. Often, very often we've seen players improve by changing teams in multiple sports and suddenly do better. I have lost count of the times I've heard the term, "The change of scenery seems to have done him good".

Being happy with your job and team mates certainly has a great impact on a players performance and is a lot more logical than trying to make up some sinister conspiracy plot that could only be described as OBJ undermining his own career and value on the open market.


And I've said the same thing.

My only caveat above was the difference in how those who avidly defend him are seeing things and how the FO sees things. They rely on statistics which alone are true and can't be argued with. But that obviously doesn't tell the entire story. If in fact it did, the FO would have been bending over backwards to sign him to an extension during the off season last year but they weren't. Instead they chose to play out his fifth year option with no attempt to extend his contract beyond that. I believe that's the difference between relying solely on statistics without understanding that the team also uses game film and puts a lot of weight in what they see.

I'm not trying to condemn Baker nor advocate he is some great NFL QB by selectively picking stats to bolster an argument either way. I have used how many open WR's he's missed to show that you can use your hand picked stats to paint any picture you want. At that juncture his avid supporters will say their stats count and your stats don't.

I agree with this FO in that they need to see another year of Baker before making a long term commitment. I'm certainly not going to use this injury riddled season to make any determinations or use it a weapon to assassinate Baker's abilities or lack there of.