I have brought this up as an observation and it is something that I, you or any Browns fan would not like to see come in fruition.

Stefanski did not pick Baker he inherited him...this season were some decisions made to turn the tide against Baker and get the backing of the Haslams to procure another QB from the draft hand picked by Stefanski.

I understand the need of tutoring some technique as was told to us when Ski took over the team, it was considered a blessing for the team to get a new and improved Baker. But from my observations what I have seen is a slow and consistent attempt to make Baker that square peg trying to fit into that round hole. What happened to building a team around a franchise QB and take advantage of the positives he brings to the us as a talented NFL QB. How has the media played into this as for some reason well probably because of Baker's immature attitude from his youthful college days. But man o man the media awaited like barracudas to attack the QB at every chance possible.

What I saw was a rookie QB that I believe still holds the TD record??? but more important was his accomplishments in the red zone as a rookie QB. 20 TD passes with ZERO INTs - just amazing leadership, accuracy and it brought such hope to us Browns fans.
We were told under the guidance of SKI Baker would tweak his technique and become even more accurate and dominant than he was. Under the scheme of SKI we did produce one of the best running attacks we have seen in this modern pass pass era. We were able to invest into an excellent Interior OL under the rule of one of the best OL coaches in the history of the NFL. Tretter one of the most cerebral OL to start for us and the obvious leader on the field - coming from Cornell and IVY league school. We already had the talented Bitonio and then we acquired a so far under achiever RG in Teller who dedicated himself physically and mentally into one of the best Interior OLmen in the NFL his biggest problem is the ability to physically manhandle DLmen to the ground of which if he was not on the move pulling the Refs automatically and incorrectly view it as a hold. Teller has to get out of the habit of what we OL have always been told in finishing our blocks by putting our opponent to the ground. It must be a hold.

We made a good investment in the drafting of Wills the LT most backed by our HOF LT Joe Thomas during the draft and he became ours, excellent pick and this year when he was not with us due to injuries it was obvious how good he is becoming, RT has been a dissapointment as when healthy the acquisition of Conklin was excellent problem is he has not played healthy so far and it shows. We have high hopes for Hudson our rookie 4th round pick where if successful would be one the big time moves needed by a dynasty team. We will see, right now his confidence in his pass pro has not been good of course facing some of the quickest DE/OLB in the NFL but I think it will come but it is still a crossed finger outlook

We acquired a troubled RB in Hunt and I think he has matured, he is excellent as a RB. But the person who is exceptional is our 2nd round pick (none of this overall #4 pick stuff) Chubb. Great vision, power and speed make him a special talent - we have decided to build our Offense around the running game and actually have ignored the Passing game. The media made such a rave about OBJ who without a doubt was/is an excellent talent but for one thing. HE DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE...we had to beg him to attend practices. In his time here I think I can count my fingers of one hand the amount of practices he attended the team. And once the games started he was MIA at almost all the practices so that it was impossible to have Baker and OBJ mature into one of those great combos you find all over the NFL....my goodness even Lamar Jackson got one such WR in their TE Andrews where he can just throw that ball up and count on Andrews making the play. Landry is an excellent possession WR and that is it...he cannot be the main banana of a WR corp. OBJ turned out to be a selfish me me individual and because he did not pick the Browns he was not anywhere close to a leader and because of injuries we didn't see much of his talent. So we figured to put more attention to TE. I personally think our best TE in the making is Harrison Bryant. Oh Njoku has that potential but it is 5 years now and we are still waiting. It seems he has concentrated on body building rather than putting his attention to speed, explosion and vertical leap. So we went and acquired a analytics TE nothing great but could be good in all areas - In baseball it reminds me of Hargrove at 1st base - a guy who can get the bat on ball and lead the league in walks. That is who Hooper is. I'm tired of walks I want some HRs - I want a beast if we are creating our team the way we seem to be we need that beast of TE...look how Andrews of the Ravens fits with the running game they are trying for.

I must apologize cause I am not there physically and I cannot finish this thought process so I will just give one of the reasons SKI looks to be getting rid of Baker.

In the first half of the season Baker struggled but still had the highest % of success in the entire NFL on play action passes...but once the injury took hold Baker had a hard time being accurate throwing to his left. Our high % of runs were to our left side with Wills, Bitonio and a pulling Teller and yet for some reason Ski decided to stop doing playaction faking a run to the left and boot leg to the right where Baker could be successful throwing to his right. For some reason it seemed the high % of boot legs/play action passes were faking runs to the right and bootlegging to the left WHY? This is where I started to say to myself, SOMETHING FISHY is going on. It just didn't make sense but there we were week after week bootlegging to the left where Baker had no chance of being his accurate self. He had to work so hard to make passes that were so so easy for him to make - throwing left was a complete struggle.

Media has piled on like I've seen no other QB get thrown under the bus. Rex Ryan the QB killer himself being the worst. The Haslams could be convinced through the media and through the suggestion of Ski so that we get who he wants...every HC wants THEIR guy smh!! Got to go lay down sorry. Please give your views and if you got video look at games and see what I am trying to explain. This is not an Aluminum Foil event of conspiracy. Just observations as I do not wish to see us throw away a most coveted talent as in we got one. Later and stay well all.

I followed the point you were trying to make.

And to answer one of your early questions, the answer is no, Baker does not still have the rookie TD record.

That was broken last year by Justin Herbert.

IDK if I believe that Stefanski was/is trying to sabotage Baker because he puts his own job/legacy/reputation on the line doing that.

More important he also risks losing the locker room by doing that.

I think he was just in over his head at times and wasn't sure how to adjust what he was calling.

The injuries to basically the entire team didn't help. We've been limited pretty much most of the season in one area or another.

The crowd calling for Baker to be traded or cut because he "sucks" seem to be forgetting that he looked great most of his rookie season.

And the second half of last season he went 7-3, and would have gone 9-1 had our defense not blown it against the Ravens on MNF or had our WR's not gotten covid for the Jets game.

More importantly he took care of the ball and had like a 16:1 TD to INT ratio to end the season.

Why the huge regression this year?

I think it was a combination of poor WR play, injuries by both the WR and OL pretty much all season, the injury to his shoulder, and then very lousy play calls by Stefanski.

I think Hooper needs released/traded and we need to overhaul our pass catchers in free agency/draft and give Baker another shot while healthy.

He's shown us flashes of being a very good quarterback ....

And let's not forget, the defense let us down a few times too. Think back to the Chiefs and Chargers games.

The defense was also very lousy against the Cardinals and the Patriots - granted so was the offense but the defense didn't do much to help the offense.

This just seemed like a season where very little went right from the get-go.

I disagree. I do not think Stefanski wants to rid the team of Baker. I think a good coach and good front office will always explore every option to make their team better. If they feel they can improve the talent in the QB position without mortgaging away the future I think they will. What I do not think they will do is get rid of Baker at all costs and take a chance on just any QB. I could see them taking a Sam Howell type QB in the 2nd round if for no other reason to just push Baker. I think it was obvious that Keenum cannot be relied upon to win games when Baker is out. So an upgrade to the back up QB is needed. If Baker struggles fully healthy then let's see what the 2nd round QB can do.

j/c

Here's where we are with Baker and where this thing is going IMO...we've seen this movie plot before:

The FO doesn't believe in him...at least not yet (not saying that as an indictment on the FO - they have their reasons that we don't see)...no Team Captains this year...no contract extension. It's a message - intended or not - that they don't have the confidence in him to see him as a long-term QB;

There is this "air" of Baker vs Ski...and Ski is their hand-picked guy while Baker is not. I don't subscribe to the "He's not THEIR guy" club on its own merits...but this is (1) of (7) reasons I'll list here...last straw...icing on the cake...whatever;

He displayed a lot of bad play after the injury and it is debate-able as to why;

The fan base is quite split on the guy...the reasons no longer matter;

The media loves to hate on him...and the Browns...and they are back with a vengeance after eating crow last year;

With the resulting uncertainty, we aren't going to land the players we need (QB or otherwise) outside the draft to get this turned around...this upgrade is more than just a (1) off-season gig;

The officiating isn't going to improve when even the player's own fan base isn't behind him...let alone the media and maybe-even the player's FO...human nature, no conspiracy.

I still think Baker is going to be a good QB...very good, in fact...just not here. I'm over being PO'd about it...it is what it is...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If they stop-gap with a guy like Matt Ryan or Jimmy G they "might" be able to draw a vet WR or (2) that can help next year...win the draft (whatever that means)...re-sign some defensive players and look for the guy to groom...D Watson (who I have doubts about on-or-off the field) is worth a shot if he clears his legal issues.

It was fun while it lasted...mostly...but the ship has sailed. Time to move on.

I've said this same thing to a few of my friends.

It would be a very "Browns" thing for us to release/trade him then he goes somewhere else and plays great.

I think New Orleans could be a great fit for him in with Payton's offense and coaching.

It wouldn't shock me in the slightest to see him go succeed there if he's released or traded to them.

I do however think he needs to go some place that's ready to win now and has support already in place.

If he ends up in Houston, Carolina, NY Giants or Seattle (assuming they trade Russ) then I also wouldn't be shocked to see him fail there.

One thing that seems true about Baker through all four years is that everyone around him needs to be playing well for him to play well.

He's not that QB who elevates the guys around him or carries an underperforming team to a gritty win.

But I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if he ends up in New Orleans, Washington or Denver and does well.

"He's not that QB who elevates the guys around him or carries an underperforming team to a gritty win."

That statement says it all. If he can't do those things, he is not a "franchise " QB. Those are qualities of a good back up, and at this point, that is where I see his future.

Why the assumption that it is solely the Browns looking to move on from Baker?

Baker may very well be looking to move on from the Browns. He certainly was not happy in his last postgame press conference.

In it, he said:

Jake Trotter
@Jake_Trotter
Baker: “Now it’s time for me to start looking at what’s best for me and my health. … I’m pretty damn beat up right now.” Baker said he’ll discuss with his agent/family whether he will play next Sunday vs. Cincy

Glaringly missing from that is him saying, 'I'll discuss it with my coaches and the organization.'

Between not getting the contract after leading the team to the playoffs, to the way this season played out, to calling out the play calling this may be a relationship that is best to amicably part ways in the offseason. Baker may feel slighted. This seems similar to when he felt slighted by Kliff Kingsbury at Texas Tech and left to walk on at Oklahoma.

We've started to see leaks in the media via MKC and Jake Trotter hinting at both parties moving on from each other. Jim Donovan was on the Browns Red Zone last night suggesting that he even felt it was quite possible we saw Baker play his last game in a Browns uniform.

I may very well be wrong, but I would be much more surprised if Baker is taking snaps under center for the Browns next year than I would seeing him on another team.

It's going to be an interesting offseason and huge decisions ahead for Berry and the future of the Browns.

There's a lot of smoke right now, but I think it'll dissipate shortly. The rumblings about AVP were false rumor, and I think these rumblings are similar.

The moment people cite MKC is when I lose interest.

He did that in the game where he took his very first NFL snap...on a team that was 1-31 / 4-44 the seasons before he got there...won (6) more games that very year...on a trash team...that won (4) games IN THREE YEARS before he got there. Two years later he grits us onto the playoffs and wins a game...on the road...without his "Star" WR.

The "guys around him" him are/were hardly weapons. At the start of the 2022 season the following weapons from 2021 either won't be on the team because he never wanted to be there in the first place...likely won't be on the team due to $$$ and will STILL be on the team in spite of $$$: OBJ...Landry...Hooper. Njoku is all but taking his potential elsewhere.

Who CAN elevate a 6th Rd project WR...a track star...and a slot WR who has been dinged up most of the year?

Next up: Baker has to have everything around him be perfect for him to succeed. I'm curious as to exactly when everything was perfect.

I've said it earlier in this thread...and will paraphrase here...it's simply time to move on from him. The team cannot succeed with such a polarizing figure who isn't having enough success. The reasons really don't matter anymore.

For me, it's a tale of two Bakers. Good Baker did absolutely make everyone around him better. WSU's example of the Jets game where he came in and the offense took off is a great example.

Bad Baker actually does the opposite. He drags the offense down.

There's no single silver bullet to kill Bad Baker and keep Good Baker. I think the many fixes start with his mechanics and technique. He's going to have to bite the bullet and talk to some broom sweepers. Supposedly, the first thing AVP did when he got here was begin to fix Baker's footwork, but then we have Kurt Warner point out footwork 101 mistakes in a game a couple weeks ago. This should fix his accuracy (not throwing balls at receiver's feet) and a little of his timing. His decision-making is another story. I do think getting the other things settled will help him focus more on reading the D in front of him, but that only gets him so far. I don't have an answer for his inability to see open receivers.

We have Baker for next year unless some monumental move is made he's ours for another year. That's probably the way it should be considering all the injuries we've had, the Covid cases, and last but not least, all the OBJ drama. JMO but I feel the whole staff should be brought back too. The FO will make decisions on whom they want back, the players they don't and will go into FA and the draft acquiring players we need at positions that need an upgrade. KS and his O staff should sit down and asceses why our O was so bad. Baker should have a lot of input on the type of O we will run next year. Our staff should look back at what made him successful in the past and go with it. KS may have to bend a little. We all want a winner here and they should be working together for that goal. Just my .02.

If it's intentional then Stefanski needs to be gone today, fired.

I'd actually love to have Rex Ryan at this point. If I were a player there's no way I'd play for Stefanski at this point.

Common sense dictates you don't take a QB who under your own coaching led this team to an 11-5 record and a playoff appearance one year only to decide to undermine him the very next season in an attempt to replace him.

What the FO thinks may be a different matter and I have no idea about that. They chose not to extend his contract but use the fifth year extension instead. Now was that Baker's choice or the FO? It takes both parties to come to a contract agreement, not just one.

Stefanki's system is the same system Baker played in last year when he led the team to an 11-5 season. This wasn't some plot to change everything up during this past off season to undermine Baker. There may have been some adjustments after his injury due to that injury which would only make sense.

I think taking an objective look at last season makes it only obvious that Stefanski would have no reason to do the things you are suggesting here. Why would any HC undermine his own career and reputation to rid this team of a QB who helped him reach the playoffs in his rookie NFL HC season?

Nah. 2+2 isn't 5.

That makes perfect sense...it's what we need...it's what should happen...there is no way that will pan out. That should have been done last off-season...after the injury...at the bye this year...any of those times...and KS didn't budge...he doesn't see the need. No free agent playmaker with special talent is coming anywhere near this mess...unless they are a special run-blocker with little interest in playing in a dynamic offense. steve has laid this out numerous times. We are likely going to go into next year with DPJ, Schwartz, a draft pick, Bryant, Carlson and another draft pick. Who will succeed with that talent? Why would a defensive player want to come to a team that can't score points?

I think "they" know what they want and Baker isn't it. He won't throw again until June/July. Half (+?) of the fanbase will get their wish...the media sharks will have a big meal...and we get to start all over again...we just don't know it yet and are delaying the inevitable.

Lastly, would you want to play for a HC that put Hudson one-on-one against TJ Watt? I sure wouldn't. All the crap that has transpired since Baker got here...and that was the last straw.

Not only that, but we were still going constant 3-TE sets and never was any of those TEs helping Hudson. It literally makes zero sense on any level.

I sure as hell don't want Cousins. Baker 2.0 enhanced.

Not Stefanski, probably the Haslems'
Somebody is using the media to try and get the fans to accept it, and its total bull *!
The Browns would be back to being a 1 win team without Baker Mayfield as quarterback. (I don't think Tom Brady could win in Cleveland)

It's totally messed up. The Browns. and the last thing Browns Fans need,
is somebody using the MEDIA to try and tell them how to feel about the stupid things the team does.
And nobody was improving the Qb's in pocket decision making from game 1- through game 16 so, who was that on?

Baker dreams of being Kirk Cousins at this point.

We've already went the Cousins route twice. Oneill and Terry.

Copied from CBS SPORTS HQ today 1/5/2022

BAKER MAYFIELD

Last season, Baker Mayfield led the Browns to their first playoff win since January 1995 -- three months before Mayfield himself was born. Fast forward a year and things couldn't be more different with the Browns eliminated from postseason contention by Week 17.

After announcing Monday night he will undergo surgery to repair the torn labrum in his non-throwing shoulder, Mayfield will not play in Cleveland's regular-season finale. Now a long offseason of questions begins.
Mayfield never got the long-term contract extension that looked likely last offseason, which means he's a prime candidate to start the 2022 season somewhere other than Cleveland. I'm not quite sure it's the right decision to move on.

Here are a few reasons why:

Mayfield's injury, suffered all the way back in Week 2, was significant and shouldn't be minimized among the reasons his play dropped off.

Cleveland's wide receiver corps left a lot to be desired. Browns WRs are last in receptions, second-to-last in receiving yards and 25th in average yards after catch.

Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt -- the two best offensive skill position players on the roster -- both missed significant time.

The Browns weren't as far away as people think this season. Only Minnesota has more one-possession losses than Cleveland's six.


But my biggest issue with moving on from Mayfield would be this: Who is going to be better?

A list of veteran QBs potentially on the move this offseason shows few answers. Luring Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson seems unlikely, should either even be available. Matt Ryan or Jimmy Garoppolo? Meh. The draft class isn't particularly strong, either.

Mayfield, at $18.9 million, is cheaper than almost any outside veteran option and better than any incoming rookie, at least for 2022. The Browns would be better off proceeding with Mayfield and improving other parts of the roster than looking for an expensive, aging option. Should Mayfield not be part of Cleveland's plans next year, NFL scribe Cody Benjamin has a list of potential landing spots.
Before the 2021 NFL season, Baker Mayfield expected to strike a lucrative long-term contract with the Browns, touting a resume that could've warranted an extension worth close to $35 million per year. Now, after taking nine sacks in a loss to the Steelers on Monday night, Mayfield's 2021 season might be over, with the quarterback set for offseason shoulder surgery and telling reporters it's time for him to evaluate "what's in the best interest of me and my health."

The next question is, has Mayfield also played his last snap with the Browns? Months after looking like he might follow the Bills' Josh Allen as the second 2018 first-round QB to land a new deal, Mayfield looks as much a part of the Browns' problems as a victim of them. He's still under contract through 2022, thanks to his $18.9 million fifth-year option, but Cleveland can trade or release him without penalty. And recent offseasons have proven that big-name QB swaps are increasingly on the table.

Given coach Kevin Stefanski's (sometimes inexplicable) commitment to relying on Mayfield's battered arm this year, and the rash of injuries that helped derail the Browns' 2021 season, chances are Cleveland will opt for familiarity and give Mayfield one more audition in 2022, before potentially turning its eyes to the 2023 draft class or veteran market.

But let's say Stefanski and general manager Andrew Berry -- who worked under the Eagles' notoriously aggressive Howie Roseman -- decide to shop Mayfield in hopes of an instant upgrade. Here are some potential 2022 destinations for the former No. 1 overall pick, either via trade or after release:


7. Carolina Panthers
Matt Rhule needs to solve the QB position, like, yesterday. Which is why they probably wouldn't be involved, a year after trading picks for another first-round flame-out in Sam Darnold. But Rhule also wants to be more of a ground-and-pound team, and Mayfield has proven, in better circumstances, that he can manage games.

6. New York Giants
Both Joe Judge and Daniel Jones are apparently set to return, but why on Earth should that stop them from investing more under center, considering the lifeless way they're finishing? Mayfield would bring personality to a market desperately lacking in NFL juice right now, and he's got the old-school approach Judge would appreciate.

5. New Orleans Saints
They've got more salary-cap maneuvering to do before they can make any real moves at QB, but Sean Payton could see a higher floor with Mayfield than the alternatives -- chiefly Taysom Hill or a rehabbing Jameis Winston. New Orleans could (and probably should) target a rookie in the draft, but perhaps they'd prefer to win now with their defense.

4. Seattle Seahawks
This, of course, is dependent on Russell Wilson relocating, which is certainly possible after the Pro Bowler even identified preferred landing spots prior to 2021. A total rebuild would be smarter, but Pete Carroll could double down on his run-heavy preferences by inserting Mayfield (or swapping him for Russ!) and pouring more investments into the defense. Wilson's no trade clause means Russ has to agree to the trade.

3. Denver Broncos
The Broncos are near the top of every "[Insert QB] landing spots" list by default. Is Mayfield that much of an upgrade on Teddy Bridgewater? Not necessarily. But with a better O-line and defense, you can argue otherwise. John Elway will never not sign off on a veteran fix, and GM George Paton may not be able to land Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, etc.

2. Washington
Ron Rivera has to be growing impatient. Taylor Heinicke is best off the bench. Their defense is built to compete. Mayfield brings the requisite toughness and starting experience to lead an old-school run-heavy offense. QBs coach Ken Zampese was Mayfield's tutor as a rookie in Cleveland. And what better way to welcome in the team's new era with a former No. 1 pick under center? They're also flush with cap space.

1. Houston Texans
Mayfield may not prefer it, but he knows Texas well, hailing from Austin and playing at Texas Tech. More importantly, Houston is all but certain to move on from Deshaun Watson. Third-round rookie Davis Mills has flashed this year, but letting him learn and/or compete with Mayfield (before re-evaluating the 2023 QB class) would be more ideal. They've got more than enough money to do it. Watson's no trade clause means Deshaun has to agree to the trade.

CBS spots HQ can go suck an egg too.

Mayfield, is only a candidate to go somewhere else, because he hasn't been signed long term in Cleveland yet.

Now. THERE IS NO END, to dumb-- 's who would LOVE to see Baker's good play for their team and not for the Browns.

They come from everywhere, they come from New York, Miami, Denver, all over the country that hates the Browns and hopes the Browns never succeed.

And they can write a '' ' load of articles! and they all want to Dump on Cleveland so they can all shove off.

The truth is the season was over once Baker went down with the shoulder injury.

Go watch some games from last year for a comparison. That was not the same QB.

In retrospect, the Browns may have been wiser to go forward with Keenam. But that would have been a hard choice or a competitive player to accept.

Just a response to a lot of opinions here, not necessarily WSU, certainly not my focus.

What we are seeing here is not good for the Browns. That was among the lousiest games I have watched in over half a century. Penalties, Hooper, Ski's inept sidelines and crappy game planning and management, and stupid offense priorities made the defense work worse. But the sum was lousier than the bad parts. I do uotknow all ball, but I know lousy ball when I see it. This was inexcusably crappy. By that I mean clearly that it can't be excused, looked past, defended, debated, or spun. We were bad at almost everything we did, each was oversimplified, predictable, conservative to a fault, and plain, bad football. We often failed to compete, and a significant part was because of our sideline. The failure to adjust, adapt, or even address some of the glaring problems in the game are HC issues. And it brings us to my take on part of the steaming pile of problems we have engineered for ourselves. We need, Berry, Haslams, Van Pelt, Stefanski, Mayfield, Woods,other assistants to look at this season with an eye to loyalty. Some has been misplaced, such as unearned; some players, plays, parts of game planning have been sacred cows, and too much of a premium put on them. Ski calling an offense that got worse and worse, probably the tailspin gets worse this weekend with this death-march. He should be done with this, and his loyalty being the play caller has extracted a real price. The loyalty to the three TE set, abandoning the run, and playing a marginalized Baker are at least bad coaching IMO. Not getting help versus Watt as he dismantled us was enraging. But he says no because they let him do so. And they listen to his excuses. Take your blame and repeat it next week. Do you want to pick up here? Decide what you want to build on. We need some talent that plays hungry, hungrier than what we see here. But we are loyal to some epic failures which are their own culture. Those wins on paper bought us the basement. Think I am done for the year for the most part. Are we tanking? Are we allowing loyalty to the wrong ball and players? None of this is all of the problem, but I think any viable improvement must involve some attitude wrenching and rough changes to how we win, not how we comm it to further losing.

This is what I don't understand... it was OBVIOUS that Baker was inefficetive throughout the season due to his shoulder... the coaching staff should have shut him down, let him get surgery, and done our best with the back up while letting Baker heal as quickly as possible to get ready for next year... I have no idea why they kept playing him when is was obvious that the injury was significantly hampering him

Baby, you can drive my Carr
Yes, I'm gonna be a star
Baby, you can drive my Carr
And maybe I'll love you"



win ! win ! win ! win ! Winnnnn !


Sorry that dang Beatles song took over in my head !

Generally speaking, I ain't buying in....

what thoroughly forgettable individuals


i'm impressed. really impressed.

As usual WSU, you are dead accurate.

Could not agree more Bard. Great post!

I'll never forget the home opener in 2013 that I took my son to, where O'neill and co. gave up 6 sacks of Brandon Weeden. Cameron Wake had 3 of them. There were plays where Wake was already in the backfield before Cousins got his feet planted. He was standing there, looking behind himself while Wake was taking down his qb. I'm not kidding.

Its little things like that which inspired me to make this thread. That one point in itself is not strong enough to back my theory or premise. But they all add up. Boot legging to the left more to the right when the complimenting run is going left left left then we fake right??? huh and putting Baker in the worst position to throw regarding his injury. Its like WHY? Then as you state we are playing 3 TE for a strong run game and then when we pass we don't chip block the glaring weakness in our Pass PRO at RT...another WHY and HUH moment.

Another thing its 2nd and 6 and instead of utilizing our play action pass which Baker has tremendous success at we go with EMPTY BACKFIELD as in Hello McFly guess what we are doing would it be PASSING.

How come we didn't practice practice practice 3-5 plays that would make teams pay for blitzing you know get that hot read all understood and well executed No week after week we would see Baker on 3rd down get blitzed on and he has maybe 3 WRs out there running routes where they have yet to turn their heads around. A lot of these things are one of two results. 1. Incompetent coaching 2. Ski does not wish for Baker to succeed and didn't want the locker room backing Baker over SKI...

I don't wish for SKI to leave but I also don't wish for us to give up on Baker and also in that #2 scenario we got the injury involved with the knowledge it would be hard for him to succeed without help instead it seemed we would go and do things that wouldn't help him. Why didn't we ride the CHUBB horse on several occasions where if he needed a blow for a "PLAY OR TWO" not a SERIES or Two to give him a breather and then back on that horse.

Why did we not go NO HUDDLE on just some occasions when we felt their defenses playing us seemed to show evidence of getting a bit gassed...NOT ONCE...again its something that Baker excelled at.

I just don't get it. Never once did I ask for us to fire a HC and I don't wish to start now but we fans are not stupid we see these little nuances against Baker's success and I am not imagining it by some of the responses that I have read.

What to do throwing up our hands and saying well we probably should get rid of Baker and let him go elsewhere and succeed. I don't think that should be the answer. Ski just has not impressed me as in scheme we had the lead many many times and played too conservative and we would play to lose not WIN!!!

How he has kept the lockerroom is attributed to our asst. coaches throughout the team. I'm wondering if a change is to be made Kellen Moore might be the correct direction.

jmho and food for thought.

Eo - good to see you posting.

I'm not on board with the theory on this thread - Stefanski might be many things, and I think 'overwhelmed' and 'desperate' might top my list before 'underhanded' and 'dirtbag' - which is what he would have to be if he was putting Baker out there to fail and get hurt. I do see lots of anecdotal issues that lead you to your conclusion - but I think that is just part of KS struggles dealing with a massive amount of issues this year including an injured QB who was clearly bad in game days regardless of practice and despite some good moments or halves.

It's pretty simple to me - and I started saying this many games ago, regardless of how good some games have gone or how well some parts of some games: Stefanski needs to concentrate 100% on being a Head Coach. He needs to let someone else be the OC and play calls. If he wants a heavy input into the play book? I can live with it - but he needs to step away from play calling on game days. Maybe as 'only' the HC it would be much easier to see Baker struggle and place him on IR for his own good and the good of the team? idk ? Just a bit of speculation. I do not know if Stefanski has it in him to admit this needs to happen though, he seems to be in denial regards this aspect of his responsibilities.

Hoping we keep both - that both are on the same page ASAP.

Very informative and good post. Thanks.

I only say one thing. Nine sacks in one game with a injured QB. Can you imagine A Reid do the same thing with Mahones if he’s injured and probably needs a surgery?

Well said, mgh.

I'll repeat what he (and others) have said. Stefanski is/might be a lot of things, but a schemer trying to put his players (especially QB) in a bad spot is not one of them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the directive came from upstairs to provide further evidence that Mayfield didn't deserve a long term contract. And by upstairs, I mean that dumbass Jimmy Haslam. He is Jerry Jones 2.0. Another idiot who thinks having money means having brains when it comes to football. He and Dolan can both go to hell.

What shred of evidence do you have to support that? I haven't heard a word about Haslam being involved in football decisions since Dee became a part of the upper brass and Stefanski being hired.

baker took us to the 26th draft position.

Defense Sendejo,Redwine,Wilson,and sheldon richardson.
we where amongst the biggest losers with players on injured reserve cause in effect you do not show up for training I am shipping you out to Detroit.
Wr this is the weakest group of receivers fielded in 20 years
Special teams the worst in the nfl .
Analysis Stefanski team is weaker then when he took it over he had 5plus all pros he better worry about his job
Landry had 1175 yards before stefanski now he has 300 plus turn that finger around this a drop off 875 yards landry is not as good as he once was but he did not drop that far

So you're saying a banged up QB with accuracy issues should have passed more this year than he did? You do know that no matter how weak those WR's are, they were open a lot on pass plays and Baker didn't see them, right? PFF has us ranked high in that regard.

I would hate to think this was done on purpose to rid him of Baker so he can hand pick his QB.

But the other option is total incompetence which I don't wish to believe and yet that is what we have. Especially in the end when we had a few games to fight and get in the post season and to even win our first Division championship. And we abandon the run especially when we were getting 7 yards per clip and we see Chubb standing on the sidelines almost with a confused look on his face like how come I'm not in there and we are not talking about HUNT being in there. Deandre Johnson...sorry he over achieved which was good to see but he ain't no Hunt nor Chubb and the season is now on the line and we need that win and its 2-3 series in a row ending a half or the game with Chubb not in??? Then when asked it was stated Chubb was fine it was just not his turn...huh?
Football is about circumstances and riding certain horses when they are running well. Instead we are on some charted system regardless of circumstance...then have Ski go home and we will just get coached from the chart without any game day Coaching...smh

I agree. But, when people are shooting spitballs, anything is bound to come out.

I agree.

That said, we just don't know how the relationship is between Baker and Stefanski.

I am, or was a big Baker supporter. "Was" meaning less so today. Baker has always had an edge that rubbed many people the wrong way. That is evidenced by all the media attention over the last several years.

Did it finally come to a boiling point between him and Stefanski? It sure looks so from my chair.

My hope it that can change, but I don't think that can happen. I think a change is going to happen and that change isn't going to be with the coach.

I think back to mid season. Baker came out in the media saying the decision to play was HIS decision and he was good enough to play and he was going to play.

At the time I remember saying the decision wasn't his, it was the coach's decision. Looking back, if I had to guess, Stefanski talked to Baker about shifting over the Keenum and Baker got irritated and went to the media to make his proclamation. I'd say that was the moment the relationship took a big turn. That was a cut the legs off of your coach moment. That can't be done, and it can't be fixed.

Baker playing his last game as a Brown is a real possibility.

Peen if that is true Stefanski truly is in over his head. Decisions like that has to be his - we are talking about the "TEAM" having a chance to win the Division and get into the post season. If he isn't making decisions on what is best for the TEAM and leaving it up to players then he more and more says to me he is the WRONG guy and we got to get rid of him NOW rather than the QB. For crying out loud we have waited 22 years to find us a QB to lead the team to playoffs.

And your change as a fan from Baker to maybe not is predicated on a season that was retarded in so many ways.
1. from the get go and studying Baker 2 years in college I saw just about every single game he played in those 2 seasons at OU. I also stated it here, the kid is TOUGH I've seen him pretty much knocked out and injured then by the time the next O series would come he would force himself out there and continue to play. Not once did I see him TAKE HIMSELF OUT. There is no situation except possibly a hospitalization that Baker would not play...so if asked he said he is ready to play. For a coach to listen to that and then say well Baker refused. That is ridiculous. I think we under appreciated the need for a more competent back up QB. We never went after a Teddy or even Dalton somebody who would not compete or beat out Baker for the starter but somebody who was more talented then Case Keenum who gave the Vikings some competent play but lets face it in our division with the Defenses we see from Steelers and Ravens a lollipop thrower just is not good enough. Again more reason why I think we have to rid ourselves of Ski as he simply is incompetent in building a team properly.

2. for a team that had the best commodity as a running team we really didn't utlilize the run that much? Why??? was it cause OBJ and Landry who I think took over the offense for most the year demanded more passing 2 games wins against Lions and Broncos as a team we ran 36 and 33 times oddly (33 was with no Chubb nor Hunt playing Bronco game) Mullens game at QB was the most Chubb ran with 23 touches. For the most part we ran short routes where in past years we ran a lot of 15+ routes.

I just thought overall our team from day one as there was no covid interference in preseason we just was no a cohesive team especially since it was the first time for what seemed like forever that we did not have a change in our make out. Same players and coaches for the most part.

Quite frankly if it wasn't for Bill Callahan we would not have had much of a team at all. smh We get rid of Baker without a proper starter like lets say a "RIVERS" and we get rid of Drew Brees in our case Baker who had a similar season as Drew did then they drafted Rivers and eventually got rid of Brees. Where he went from 58% completion his 3rd season to 66% his next then they got rid of him cause Rivers was ready. Hmm how did that one work out. Nah lets not build our team around what Baker does best. Lets force the O down his throat.
Got to run...

Hard to believe Stefanski would basically lose on purpose to help run out Baker. The James Hudson stuff is quite damning, and I have to believe Callahan would’ve suggested getting him help. I’ll say this: the only way it is possible KS would scheme this out is if he knew exactly who he wanted in here and knew he could pull it off. So if Kirk Cousins winds up here, then I am suspicious.

The same QB and HC that led us to the playoffs together last year is not something the HC suddenly decided to plot against to undermine him the following season. That makes no sense. Cosspiracy theories seem to control the minds of a lot of people these days. This is just one more to add to the list.

There’s absolutely no way thatKS would jeopardize his job here,and possibly somewhere else in the future to do that. Coaches are graded by one metric: the wins and losses.

Nine sacks in one game against an injured QB. Please give me your thoughts how many sacks you think is enough before it’s time to make changes in order to protect your QB? When you’re on the subject please give me your honest view about Stefanski as a HC, good and bad, and how you want us to move forward regarding the QB situation. I also hope you can be objective enough to judge both Baker and our HC to the same standard because that’s something I missing in this discussion.

You obviously lack the ability to understand context.


The context revolves around a conspiracy theory that Stefanski is purposefully trying to undermine Baker to replace him at QB. Once you grasp that, things become clearer. At least one would hope so.

NO HC in his second NFL season would purposefully undermine a QB who helped lead this team to the playoffs the year before. NO NFL HC with only being a HC in his second season would purposefully lead his team to a losing season. It would undermine his own career and job.

Focus.

Oh my gosh the Browns should be featured on the Art Bell
Coast.to.Coast radio show . The conspiracy theories galore
Lets see a few weeks ago, the league and the refs
Made the sure Aaron Rogers won Xmas day.
Then the somewhere in Nimacola Resort in southern PA
The Rooneys met with Mr.X and Sluggworth from Charlie
And.the Chocalate Factory to pass along insurance that
Big Bens last game at Heinz was a guaranteed win

Now Kevin Stefanski is undermining Mayfield. It's all part of the plan
Connect the.dots. It's all make sense.
Funny.how when the Browns were 3 and 1 this season
Everything was sunshine and lollipops.
Now that the Browns have reinvented the term fools gold
And showed how soft that locker room is
It must be a league wide collaboration on all levels
To keep the Browns from achieving a actual North Title.
How many years now..22?

Running Stefanskis system last season, Baker QBed us to 11 wins.. Now that tells me that either it was a A: a fluke, B: it was well done but opposition figured it out and we didn't adjust or C: it was injuries and covid....

I'm going with B and C..Not sure how much weight to put on which one.

But none of them lead me to believe that Stefanski wants Baker gone...

The Browns played a soft schedule last year. The league has film on Stefanskis
Offense. Its a offense designed to win TOP and preserve early leads
It's not a dynamic modern age offense. WRs are not focal points.

Who is worse at there Job, Baker or KS?

I think they are even this year. Baker is hurt and will be back to very good next year.
Im not so sure about KS.

So I think Baker is better than KS

Wait a minute.

It is one thing to dislike a HC because you disagree with his game plans or playcalling.

Or, you may question his leadership skills or even question his competency as a head coach in general.

Let's go back to pure logic.

Why on earth would a new head coach in his second year decide to lose games?

To believe he would conspire with an owner to get a qb in the draft?

That would mean winning like two or three games. How could you possibly secure a position in the draft to get one player?

All this after winning the first playoff game in like forever with the qb on the team? Really? And Haslam would go along with that after all the losing he has been through? Is this a joke? We beat the Steelers in their yard, in the playoffs.

How on earth would a head coach do all this all through the season? So in all the meetings with players and coaches he somehow has an alternative plan to lose games?

Tab you know better. Check the meds.

You have not thought this through. Something else is at play here. Lack of sleep. The meds you have to take.

Expectations for 2021 were to compete for a Super Bowl.

The Browns were not looked at as "suck for Luck" team. Baker was coming off his finest hour with the Browns. Stefanski was "Head Coach of the Year."

Damn I thought the title was some kind of joke.

I don't think KS did anything sinister in "trying to rid us of Baker"...my issue is that I wish he did though. Because if he really thought that putting Hudson out there all alone with Watt was a viable plan/scheme, then I'd call that more damning than trying to sabotage the QB. JMO

If it WAS sabotage, then it worked. If it wasn't sabotage, then we might have a 1-yr fluke as a HC/OC. Neither choice is a good choice.

It's a really bad look either way. One that shouldn't/can't be explained away with just a "I need to be better".

KS has 18 wins in two years... how many Browns' HCs have done that?

I think he took a step back this year and did a few tings that I didn't agree with.... but there's no way I want to change HCs again after this year...

Stefanski really should have gotten four open receivers per play. It was a missed opportunity.

Not exactly what I'm impying. No HC in the NFL would be looking to lose on purpose. I think he's looking to win but doesn't want Baker to look like the guy winning these games. With his injury and other circumstances it is possible to do so. I think he is looking to frustrate Baker maybe just to have him decide to sit down and not being told to sit.??? I don't know really mostly I'm thinking out loud. Just some weird crap going on that is for sure.

I'm expecting us to look a lot smoother on the O - I lot of comfort zone situations looking easier. Now that Baker is gone we like we did with Mullens we will run the ball like we should have and that was without Chubb nor Hunt we ran the most without Baker on the roster. I expect to see that again and we will control the game assuming D came to play! We will do a lot of play action going to the right not left I mean sometimes we will but not at a high %. We will see things we should have done with Baker out there and injured again WHY? I don't think on purpose to lose I think to make it look bad for Baker. I guess just give me that aluminum foil hat and yet now I'm reading more and more about these little things happening within the media

It was announced that Baker will be the starter next year.

This whole notion of your's is out of whack.

Frankly, I don't how to reply.

Tab, you need to really think this through.

I think that is just posturing. I also think this thing is going to implode. If they are not 100% committed to Baker for 2022, then I hope they pull the trigger asap and get on with it. AB has a lot of work to do to bolster the 53...and uncertainty at QB is going to make that job almost impossible.

I'm concerned that this will become (or already is) a Baker or Ski thing...and Baker isn't their guy, is having surgery, didn't play well in '22, half the fan base hates him,etc.

If Keenum goes absolutely bananas in this game and KS calls a wide open game, then you might be on to something.

I hesitated to post this...but...several of the QBs mentioned as 'upgrades' or 'competition' for the QB job really aren't any better than Keenum IMO. Mariota? Trubisky? Bridgewater? I'd rather roll with Keenum. Jimmy G? Better still keep Keenum then because Jimmy G isn't playing a full 17 games.

The Browns are painting themselves into a corner where next year is going to look a lot like this one ..

No kidding. There were people here who wanted to keep a coach with the worst record in NFL history to see what he could do with "real players". Let's see if KS learned anything from his sophomore slump.

Agree 100% with these two posts.

As regards Keenum. I gotta question anyone who watched the game he played in this year and think he is a candidate for being our starter next year. If he throws the ball with more than 20-25 air yards on a single play today I would be shocked, and if he does I expect it to look like a wounded duck.

Stefanski likes using TEs for 5-10 yard plays... OBJ left because it didn't appear there were balls thrown 20-25 yards in the air... maybe 20-25 yards past the open receiver..

Keenum is pretty terrible. He knows how to run the offense successfully but is not physically talented enough to do things to win games. I would love to replace him with someone who can actually push Baker. Mariota would be ideal.

So giving a much healthier QB a more open game plan indicates such? It looks like conspiracies have taken over common sense.

I think it would be wise to discard any conclusions that are reached because of this game.

J/C

IMO if Baker goes, it is on him.

If he had played better over the last 4 years, we wouldn't be talking about this.

At this point this game means as much as a spring training game in baseball.

The players have their bags packed for someplace where it is warm.

Agree Keenum is pretty bad but knows the offense.

I like Mariota coming out of college. He's done less than Baker and he's been on better teams to my mind - how fair that is I don't know. The guy I think would push Baker and might be perfect for a KS offense is Garoppolo, but I don't know if he can stay healthy and if you got JG it would be to move on from Baker which I am not willing to do yet.

Neither of these things were going to happen. Healthy Keenum wasn't impressive, and was sporadically impacted by some poor plays by his catchers. KS seemed to get the run game going pretty well.

An opinion that you do not agree to and you do not know how to respond...so what you come up with in this Convo is I am whacky. Btw we did playaction faking left and bootlegging right or I saw start to bootleg right but ended going straight back cause there was no pass rush what so ever. And there we were running the ball what 40+ times without Baker at QB and 20 times with Baker at QB. But I am whacky. What I saw was pass Pro blocking with a chipper available for our rookie RT without Baker in as I said its just little things adding up to a big WHY? I was surprised to read several articles questioning Ski's moves validating my own ??? Or is this simply a HC trying to force a QB into his scheme without any bend to take advantage of Baker's skill set. Again WHY???

Ok its not him trying to get rid of Baker but then its just a case of terrible coaching. No adjusting his system to work best under Bakers abilities. Why is it Whacky to question our coaching all of a sudden. Why did we not have a scheme to adjust and create throwing lanes instead it seemed play after play in the Steeler game they were knocking down or up Baker's passes. What QB was it said (when Baker came on the scene and blew people away with his production. Hmmm oh right Drew Brees) His entire game is coinciding with throwing lanes - does our coach not have the sophistication in his schemes to create throwing Lanes - Even when they aren't knocking passes down Baker had to throw too high to have a shot. Just so many little things that don't add up. You don't know how to reply so I must be Whacko? or my opinion must be whacky? I mean don't agree with what I'm saying - which is almost impossible to disagree. These are facts that I see happening and what I'm asking is not for you to see what I see although fact is a fact my question simply is WHY? Why didn't we dominate teams with runs when Baker was in there. We did so with Case at QB and also the game with Mullens at QB...those two games we ran the ball the way we should run the ball.

I did miss that declaration of Baker being our starting QB...I read the official website but no mention of it at all. And still I would like to see Ski back Baker so that the kid doesn't have some sort of confidence break down which I do see. But after his surgery and rehab he will be back in great form and will be our franchise QB. Now is the time to sign him long term where it won't cost an arm and a leg. The media looks for any reason to break up the Browns - We got the makings of a great team. Injuries and Covid hurt us last year a little more than other teams I think. Either Baker is our QB and we support him 100% or he isn't and we must wander the Desert for another 22 years looking for that QB.

How soon we forget.

Everyone knows about the quarterback "shirt." The great list of failures.

How about the "coaches list?"

At some point a organization has to stick with a head coach through thick and thin times.

Look at the careers of Hall of Fame coaches. Does anyone believe that any of them did not have bitter disappointments?

In football hardly anything goes the way you would like them to. One team wins the Super Bowl. The rest of the teams are disappointed no matter their record.

Play calling. I have heard fans gripe about play calling for over fifty years. It doesn't matter who was doing it.

Kevin Stefanski has two years under his belt now as a head coach. Did any other coach in the history of football have to face Covid in their first two years on top of business as usual? Does anyone think that has been an easy obsticle to deal with?

Stefanski's record is 20-15 with a playoff win. Look at that record again and let it sink in.

Now try and remember the last head coach of the Browns with a winning record.

Paul Brown, Blanton Collier, Nick Scorich, Marty Schottenheimer that's it.

So all this bs about fire KS give me a effing break. Yeah sure he was trying to lose games to get rid of Baker.

You don't become a head coach in the NFL and all of sudden know everything. It is a learning process and it is difficult. It does not come easy or happen in one or two years.

We have a good bright young head coach and GM. And we should thrilled to have them.

I am not the sum of other posters history. I'm not one who has had a history of questioning the calls of our coaches. If I do have a history it is one of defending the coaches and promoting that we stick with the coach. Which I do not wish for us to fire Ski maybe as some have suggested is that we get a play caller for game day management???

I just would like to hear some ANSWERS on these happenings and decisions??? If not from the coaches which what are the odds that would happen (slim to none) but then from fans like yourself...in Gosh name why did we do those things. Can you explain the thought process - I have not read any articles answering but several asking the same questions that I have??? Why? is all I ask.

I said before - I think it was crappy coaching and KS showing his ass to the world. Hopefully he learns and gets better.

That's really it in a nutshell. Two choices: [A] Crappy Coaching - with bad decisions about how to adjust and negate the strength of your opponent .... OR .... [B] a douchebag, scumbag head coach who no player would ever want to play for because he deliberately sabotaged his TEAM's chances of winning and deliberately called plays that had a high chance of hurting his QB. Which is more likely? .... I say [A] all the way. There is so much for KS to lose as a 2nd year HC calling plays intended to expose/hurt his QB and lose a winnable game.

There is no issue with questioning any head coach.

That is what fans do. Sure I thought the same thing why is Hudson on a island alone? I posted it in Post Game. Why were we not prepared for Hudson versus Watt?

I also stated right after the New England game that KS got schooled by a master.

I don't have answers to why this play or that play. Or, other things I may disagree with.

At the same time from experience I know coaches have "way more" information about all that goes on inside their team than we do.

I do not believe any coaches lose intentially. Nor do they plot with the owner to get rid of their quarterback who happened to win a playoff game the year before.

Fans have a right to cringe when Pete Carroll calls a pass play from the two yard when Marshawn Lynch is their back.

Whatever that does not make them bad coaches.

Stefanski is in second year. He will make mistakes. At the same time he is not above being self critical and learning from errors.

No different than Baker has to learn from his mistakes. I don't hear from you let's flush Baker. You seem to have patience when it comes to him.

And for the record if you read my takes on Baker. I have patience with Baker. I think we can win with him. At the same time I know he must improve.

I still think part of the issue is calling plays. When he's busy calling plays he is oblivious to the other things happening and often causing , or contributing to, the failed execution.

So in 2020 he knew how to do it but forgot in 2021?

People are bending over backwards to figure out what went wrong when the answer is right in front of them. The QB was one of the worst in the league.

I thought he did some stupid calls last year to, which I attributed at the time of being too focused on the next play and not seeing the bigger picture.

Those things are not mutually exclusive, ya know. They can both be true. There is no need to pick one or the other and stick with it.

Except all the evidence points to the QB.

An illogical premise and absurd conclusion isn't something people " do not agree to and you do not know how to respond" to. You ignore any and every logical response and then blame others.

No NFL HC in his second season would do what you have suggested. It would undermine his own career. Stefanski doesn't have a decade or more HC resume that would allow him to get away with what you're suggesting.

He and Baker worked together to take this team to the playoffs and an 11-5 record just last season. No HC would just throw that away by deciding all of a sudden he wants his "own guy".

For one, no HC in only his second season would have the power to tell the GM who to draft. Stop acting like He's Andy Ried. He's not nor does he hold that power.

The reason people are reacting the way they are is because none of what you're saying makes any sense.

I think the QB issue needs resolved in 2 ways next season.

#1 Baker Mayfield needs to heal and get healthy

#2 Browns need to find someone they trust to led the team if Baker get injured. Injuries happen. That is a part of the game. Baker playing hurt in the end hurt this team and his image outside the locker room. I think bringing in someone to one push Baker to get get better during the off season is a good thing and two is capable to win games when he is out. Mayeb something like Mitchell Trubisky in Free Agency on a 1 year deal and Sam Howell in the 2nd round.

Finally somebody who gets it...

btw its called thinking out loud a dangerous thing to do unless you are among friends

I think (probably moreso hope) that this season will go down in history as the (or one of) the learning opportunities to mold the team into a perennial contender.

Lots of brutal data exposing flaws and weaknesses.

Look, anyone can admit the Green Bay Christmas game was a scheduled, and the Steelers playing the Browns for the final game was scheduled.

After the whooping that the Browns laid on the Steelers last year in the playoffs, it was just too good of an opportunity to pass on.

People forget that they plan the schedule to generate revenue and interest.

There one thing for sure... 100% If Baker does not get injured and sorry to the Baker Haters there was a distinctive change from Non Injured Baker to immediately change after Baker got injured. Highest % in the NFL to boom 60 or under %. How soon do we forget. We got dawgs here wanting to judge Baker after the injury... but as I was saying 100% we would have won our division and we would be one of the front runners of the post season.

My feelings on Baker have changed somewhat. My problem is Baker can have a pretty low floor when things aren't exactly right. He is at the point of his career where the young rookie QB has matured and honed the craft to where he should be able to elevate the play of the players around him.

That hasn't happened.

I don't know where all of this is going to go, but what I do know is that I hope we don't waste the careers of Myles Garrett and Nick Chubb the way we wasted Joe Thomas'. I also know we need to have a back-up plan if we indeed do go forward with Baker another year. We can't keep dinking around hoping the guy plays like we hoped he would play.

When exactly were things "exactly right"?

Hue?
Freddie?
OBJ?
Hance at LT?
Wills with a bum ankle regressing?
Conklin out more than in?
Hance at RT?
Hudson at RT?
Torn labrum?
Broken bone?
Ankle, groin, foot injuries
The worst WR group in the division...maybe the league
TEs who drop the ball or fall down right after catching it?

I read that comment a lot...but have no idea when that was exactly?

Perfect situations?

Mahomes
Murray
J Allen
L Jackson
J Herbert
Burrow (the instant they added Chase to that group of weapons)

The narrative has been written - "Baker needs things to be perfect to play well" ... until he does it on the field of play, highlighting the unique history of what Baker has faced won't win any arguments, no matter how accurate.

Not directed at you, specifically, but I'd love for somebody to articulate exactly what they mean by this.

He can't create his own pocket.
He can't catch the ball for them, and he can't run their routes.

What is it a QB is expected to do to "elevate" others? or, is this just a mystical phrase embodying the feeling that we just should have done better, damn it!?

I think it means he helps them jump higher.

...I don't think it means how Johnny M elevated Josh Gordon.

Except all the evidence points to the QB Playing injured

There fixed it for you!

"Strap the team on his back and find a way to win" is another popular expression used to try to put Baker down, and falls in line with what you say above. But possibly even worse - because how many games has Baker come from behind, helped take a LATE 4th Q lead and then watch from the sidelines as the Cleveland D gave up a long drive and game losing score?

Or stood stymied on the field after his "weapons" drop passes...fumble the ball away...or run their own darn routes while making the 'ole business decision.

Or had his targeted receiver held for 8 yards in his route before pulling the WR back for the pick...with no call.

j/c

I don't know. Maybe you guys can count them for us?

Second half of last year we had OL miss some games here and there, we had basically the same WR group, the same TE group, we did have Hunt for most of it but we've all seen that DJohnson isn't that huge of a drop off... and we still scored points and won games. And that was with a defense that held almost nobody to less than 20 points..

Somebody can do a detailed analysis of strength of schedule or how many OL missed games or do whatever deep dive into the analytics that they want but the single biggest factor that changed is that Baker was hurt this year. First it was the labrum, then compounded with some leg injuries...

And the simple fact is that players just play... sometimes QBs throw the perfect ball to a well covered guy.. is that the QB elevating the play of the WR? Sometimes WRs catch balls that aren't well thrown, they go up or layout or take big hits and come up with the catch anyway... is that the WR elevating the play of the QB? Sometimes a RB breaks a number of tackles and turns a sure loss into a nice gain... is that the RB elevating the play of his OL? Sometimes an OL gives a RB a massive hole that my grandma could run through for 12 yards... is that the OL elevating the play of the RB? Sometimes a coach dials up the perfect pass play at the perfect time and it is very easy to execute... is that the coach elevating the play of the QB? Sometimes the QB audibles into just the right play that is going to work... is that the QB elevating the play of himself and the whole offense?

These guys are highly paid professionals, you expect them to do their jobs, sometimes you expect greatness, sometimes you realize that a mistake is going to happen...

I don't believe it's about tangibles, more on the emotional side. Getting psyched up !! wanting to lift your game up and play to a higher level. As in any competition if your on a team or just another individual you may play at that persons level, which may not be what you can achieve.

Then you pair up or have that single player come on your team that just gives you that special energy to achieve and succeed at a higher level.

I don't know, if you keep throwing passes that are being dropped, you keep running perfect routes and getting open and the ball's just aren't coming your way, looking at the sidelines and the hc constantly has an apathetic, confused look on his face.....that stuff has to have an impact on your performance. Negativity is infectious.

Maybe I should say make them better.

QB's can make receivers better by being better. Baker isn't making his receivers better IMO.

Even the line on sacks...watch Baker. He has a habit of drifting in the pocket several feet. Linemen know where the QB should be. Drifting a few feet either way changes the pocket.

I don't know man. I have supported the guy, but I am starting to think the guy isn't going to work out unless he changes.

We can talk about the receivers dropping balls with no separation.
The TE's being sub-standard.
The line being all gummed up.
This year the coach can't call plays or the O is wrong
Last year we heard how a 2nd year in the O was going to make things better.

It always seems to be something, when you know what.. Maybe it isn't all of those things. Maybe it's because our QB isn't all that great unless everything is perfect around him.

Just a thought.

Very interesting article - specifically the part about not playing to Mayfield's skill set. Common issue with teams that seem to always struggle at QB, not building the offense to the skill set of the QB.



https://sports.yahoo.com/anonymous-exec-believes-baker-mayfield-000052680.html

I think that is the problem. Our HC wants to run an O that our QB isn't made for thus all the inconsistent play. One or the other has to change or it won't work.

I don't think that KS is looking to get rid of Baker. All QBs have to be good at finding and hitting the open receiver on time, and that's something Baker has to improve on coming off this season.

But I do wonder if KS and Berry have a longer term plan for the offense. It seems to be an offense that emphasizes the run while asking its QB to only do a couple things really well. In league of have's and have-not's at the QB position, I think it makes a ton of sense to feature an offense that makes the QB just a cog in the offense instead of the main driver. So to that end, I wonder how heartbroken they'll be if they finally come to the decision that Baker just doesn't work here.

Dorsey trying to save face on his #1 draft pick!

“But at the end of the day, it’s not a great fit. He’d be best in a shotgun, up-tempo offense like they have in Arizona,” an NFC exec said. “The Browns will get rid of the only good quarterback they’ve had in years and fall into the same traps of the past.”

Baker is not a good fit for the offense that maximized his skill set and had his most efficient year as a QB? Ok.

And then there is this (I remember when MKC was bashed for reporting this exact same story Fowler is now reporting):

Mayfield also may be looking for a different system to play in before becoming a free agent after 2022.

Cleveland is saying all the right things right now related to their quarterback plans in 2022 but not everyone is buying it. Time will tell what the truth really is.

Baker did just fine in this system last year... WHEN HE WASN'T INJURED..

The best system for Mayfield is the system he is currently in. Our offensive coordinator was Todd Monken and he was horrible. The next year he was in Stefanski’s offense and had his best year. The stats prove out that Mayfield is best while running play action and with multiple tight ends. It’s not like this stuff is unknowable.

So today, what is more important to the success of the team, the QB's skill set or the coach's scheme? Interesting that a Tom Brady says that he doesn't make reads during the play but that his target is decided even before the ball is snapped. Neither Belichick nor Arians have tried to change that method. Murray, Jackson, Mahomes, and Allen play in offenses that were built around their skill set - not a coach's scheme. Rodgers threatened to leave the GBP because they wouldn't address the personnel needs that would enhance his skill set. The Bengals drafted Boyd in the second round in 2016, Burrows in the 1st and Higgins in the 2nd in 2020, and Chase in 1st round of 2021. They have built their offense around their players skill sets.

I'm pretty sure that this will be Stefanski's and Berry's last season in Cleveland. It's much easier to replace a head coach and GM than it is your QB. If they keep Mayfield, a bad year sends them packing. A good year means a new contract for Mayfield which I don't think he signs with Berry and Stefanski still in place due to their noncommittal long-term stance the last 2-years. If they trade Baker, it will shorten their tenor if it doesn't work. I'm sure there won't be any grace period due to a new QB. Even if it does work but Mayfield shines somewhere else, the fallback will be ugly.

IMHO, Mayfield's struggles are directly related to his being uncomfortable in the offense the team is running. He's pressing and questioning what he's seeing so as to not make a mistake. You can fix mechanics, you can fix decision making processes, you have a hell of a time changing a players skill set. Anyway, the Stefanski - Mayfield marriage is coming to a head either this off season or next, but something has to give.

an NFC exec said. “The Browns will get rid of the only good quarterback they’ve had in years and fall into the same traps of the past.”

Pretty much what I have been saying...we are going to get rid of Baker and then spend the next 20 years trying to fill the QB spot. SYSTEM QBs look Stefanski will come and go and then we will have a new system with Ski's QB which we will get rid of and so on and so on. Here we got a QB extremely talented just cause many of you are blind and follow the mantra of STAT BOY quoting the bad stats in an injury laden season exclaiming that is the QB we got here why say that when clearly he could be great when healthy and with some talent around him. I do not wish ignorant fans to run this QB out of town - it would be a great mistake by the lake there is no reason why we should be a mistake time to pull up our big boy pants and see the truth of the future!!!

Wake up Browns fans

The other Baker thread is closed, I was asked if I would approve of us going after Wilson.

1. I have always liked Russell Wilson even in college.
2. I think they have similarities. Wilson is better at scrambling but is getting older and those skills will erode soon
3. What would the cost be and would it compensate what ever pluses Wilson would bring.
4. I would rather see us go get more talent than just a good possession WR in Landry. We need weapons maybe Williams from Bama, Wydemeyer TE from Texas A&M somebody when Baker is in trouble he can throw the ball up in a general area and trust his WR will come down with it. Just like Mahomes does with Hill or Lamar with Andrews this is what we are missing not an improvement in a QB.

I saw the greatness in Baker when in our first 2 games where he was healthy was over 80% in his completions just incredible - that with more TALENT as I mentioned with the incredible running game we have we would terrorize defenses. Ski has to be a good COACH and make his system better to what Baker offers. Right now he doesn't need a piece of garbage like OBJ who we had to beg to be part of the team LANDRY tried so hard but he had no interest especially after his injury he didn't care about the system and just run his own routes when the system Baker was trying so hard in molding his game to relied on good route running and unselfishness play. Then I saw a guy pllaying on guts and for some reason a coach who didn't shut him down OK that was your decision SKI not Baker's but then after the fact keep on bootlegging to the left where Baker had to throw on sheer arm strength when anyone coaching kids to be QBs the art of throwing is in the shoulder turn...very similar to the golf swing and why many QBs are naturallly good at golf its that shoulder turn in throwing and in most its a natural thing unless of course you TEAR your Labrum. But Baker had a better chance of making good throws with his body facing the right but instead of bootlegging right faking our run left why did Ski have him goiing left more often than right??? was it on purpose or just stupid. You know the old adages the grass is always greener on the other side and a bird in hand is better than 2 in the Bush...WE HAVE BAKER LETS USE HIM WISELY FOR THE NEXT 10 seasons instead of throwing him away for something better. Wilson will not fit in SKI's system. Look at who he had to throw to and coming here the none weapons. We need to build not destroy ROME. We got the makings of a great D if we keep building, we got the makings of a great O if we keep building - we need a reliable RT we are looking good in the interior - we have to build on Harris at Center we got Wills at LT get that RT and we know we can always get a great RB in the 2nd round to keep that RUNNING game roll going with playaction. And why so many time on a 2nd and 6 situation perfect for playaction we did what??? EMPTY backfield telling the D we were throwing the ball, pin your ears back and come get Baker and they did sack him hurt him some more. Just too many stupid decisions when Baker was deemed the best option for the team to win then all the fans Blamed Baker for the incompetence that ensued. Point blank that was an injured QB out there and his throwing motion was damaged 101 QB making SHOULDER TURN...I've made many a QB from the youth leagues who went on to become great QBs - 2 winning the Boomer Easison Trophy for the areas best QB. Sorry to blow my own horn but I know the fundamentals of QB like me or hate me fact is the shoulder turn is very important and fact is Baker lost that skill set due to the injury. Now he has to come back better than ever with hard work. Again getting rid of him would be one of the biggest mistakes we would make in our history. I repeat

an NFC exec said. “The Browns will get rid of the only good quarterback they’ve had in years and fall into the same traps of the past.”

That has to be what Stefanski is doing. Trying to dump Baker. In only his second NFL season as HC he is willing to undermine his own job and future as an NFL HC to get his own guy. Even whhen he is not in charge of the draft.

Yeah, that's gotta be it!

Again - it's the freaking scheme. The scheme doesn't allow Mayfield to build any chemistry with his WR's even if they were the lowest rated WR group in the league.

What teams ran the most multiple TE sets in 2021?
The top 3 multiple TE set users in 2021:
Miami 70% of their plays came with multiple TE sets
Atlanta - 49% of their plays came from multiple TE sets
Cleveland - 43% of their plays came from multiple TE sets

Even more disturbing is the 13 personnel, 22 personnel, and 23 personnel where there's 1 or fewer WR's on the field
22% of the plays Cleveland ran in 2021 had 1 or fewer WR's on the field.

Looking a little deeper, the Browns ran 13 personnel on 17% of the plays they ran in 2021, almost twice as much as any other team in the NFL. (9% PHI)

If you just look at the 13 personnel, 22 personnel, 23 personnel, 03 personnel and 32 personnel you will see an interesting look when compared to the other NFL teams.
Only 5 teams used these sets double digit percentages:
Cleveland 22%
Atlanta 21%
Baltimore 16%
Las Vegas 12%
Tennessee 12%

The lowest:
LA Rams 0%
Buffalo 1%
Washington 1%
Green Bay 2%
Pittsburgh 3%
Jacksonville 3%
NY Jets 3%
Cincinnati 4%
Arizona 4%
Dallas 4%

The scheme is not set up to allow the QB to develop chemistry with his WR's - not when almost a quarter of your plays consist of either 1 or zero WR's on the field.

I think they should have schemed so our injured QB would pass more. That would have been the smart thing to do.

7 of the 10 teams that lined up the least in the TE heavy packages went to
The playoffs.

Do the Browns have to have the best QB in.the division
In order to win the North?

Maybe we should switch to a scheme where we don't have WRs open more often than the rest of the league. That's what we tried this year.

You Mayfield haters crack me up. In your mind he's just a bad QB. Never mind that almost 50% of the plays were ran with 2 or more TE's on the field. Let's ignore the fact he was injured where it effected his accuracy. Let's ignore that 22% of the plays were run with 1 or no WR's even on the field. Rhythm and chemistry are critical factors for a QB and builds confidence. If the QB isn't seeing (or practicing) 3 WR sets less than 50% of the plays he's absolutely going to struggle with chemistry and rhythm with those players - injured or not.

Every team lines up in TE heavy packages but Cleveland does it 43% of the total plays.
This year's playoff teams:
Buffalo 10% with 90% in the 12 personnel
Arizona 25% with 84% in the 12 personnel
Cincinnati 22% with 81.8% in the 12 personnel
Dallas 29% with 86.2% in the 12 personnel
Green Bay 31% with 93.5% in the 12 personnel
Kansas City 27% with 74.1% in the 12 personnel
LA Rams 13% with 100% in the 12 personnel
Las Vegas 29% with 58.6% in the 12 personnel
New England 19% with 73.7% in the 12 personnel
San Francisco 16% with 56.2% in the 12 personnel
Tampa 25% with 80% in the 12 personnel
Tennessee 33% with 63.6% in the 12 Personnel
Philadelphia 35% with 74.3% in the 12 personnel
Pittsburgh 19% with 84.2% in the 12 personnel

The closest playoff team to Cleveland was Tennessee and they ran 10% less TE heavy sets than the Browns.

The big driver is that 18% of the Browns total plays were run in the 13 personnel set or the 23 personnel set. 41.8% of the TE heavy set plays were run with 3 TE's. There's not a single NFL team that ran half that many 3 TE sets.

j/c...

Glad the surgery went well!

Stats aren't the end all - btw I will do my best not to use the term Stat Boy but here is a golden nugget to you cfrs15 and other dawgs.

Probably the best QB video ever made. Pleased note we are running the 2022 version of the WCO but these do apply. Note about the emphasis made on the shoulder turn. This is a long video but again the best QB tutorial video - I wish Stefanski was the teacher that WALSH and PAUL BROWN were... I'm sure Baker would be a great QB under them.

pleased watch and educate your self as well as other as I believe cfrs15 you have the opportunity to TEACH football to what level I don't know and I've learned 13-25 learning football technique is all the same.

Those other teams did not have a QB with a torn labrum. It's funny how you explain the injury as an excuse for Baker and then try and blame the adjustments we had to make because our QB was injured on Stefanski. The two were directly connected. So you either place the blame on both or the blame on neither.

Bonefish posted this on the other thread that was closed.

To many of us, the facts, the rational, reasonable, undeniable conclusions that most everyone should get from the stats/analytics reveal to us, in this video, exactly what our eyes have been showing us, our brains have been processing, and our guts have been telling us.

Four years of data. Not the one injured shoulder year, 4 years of facts.

PFF and QBR just tell us exactly what we’ve seen. We can argue… but, many just aren’t going to listen. (Started on the board, first time in 2004)

To me, the most telling truth of the video is Baker’s success. It explains much about what I am reading from a few of you. The fact that Baker will consistently give you two All Pro games per season (no more, no less) causes many to excuse away the many valid points presented by Bonefish, CFRS, Stripper, and yes… Rish.

Don’t be teased by a quarterback who provides you with two, focused, elite level games per year.

That is who Baker is.

Every year. He is who he is. 2 great games, at least 8 horrible ones, every year. The fourth quarter stats… well we’ve all watched it. He is who he is.

I thought he looked focused during his rookie season. That is in the past.

To me, he looks like players I’ve coached who stay up at night, addicted to video games.

About the only thing that could change my mind at this point, would be if Jimmy could somehow call in a marker with his buddy Peyton, and have him take him through a 12 week Boot Camp on every element it takes, is required, to be a professional NFL QB. An elite, focused, technically sound, obsessed, focused, mentally sharp guy who can execute on nearly every play.

It’s not going to happen.

If the Texans wanted Baker, that is our only shot. But, we really need (Watson) and the 13th pick to get the receiver we need.

Probably not going to happen.

So, we are Browns fans. Screwed, Screwed, Screwed again.

No-one actually knows, and backing up opinions with research and well constructed debate is better than what we normally see when we are talking about Baker. So I have no problem with your view and opinions. You might well prove to be right.

What I did want to point out is the lack of consistency with regards to some of the arguments against Baker and by the Baker detractors.

- Baker's WR core should have been plenty good enough because they were open a lot based on a PFF article that said they had the 2nd most plays with 3 WR open. . . . but our WR core is not good enough for Watson (or future stud QB) and we need to address that for a new better QB.

- Baker is garbage/trash/average - the PFF article showing how many open receivers we have has been used to "prove" that. Endlessly in posts. But then none of the Baker detractors wants to accept that PFF graded Baker the 5th best QB in the NFL over the final 9 games of last season. When I brought this contradiction up a poster said that during those 9 games Baker's play was "acceptable" - but that same poster still valued and trusted the open receiver article as golden and untouchable, and certainly didn't wish to tolerate any questioning regards how the article was compiled.

- A report saying on 37% of plays the Browns had 3 receivers open during a play, 2nd most in the league has been morphed into "The Browns had the most open receivers in the NFL"

- The 3 receivers open stat has been repeated a lot. But those repeating that part of the equation don't tough or repeat the individual WR grades by PFF which were woeful.

- Baker detractors love to say that regardless of all else - winning and driving the team to comebacks, success, 4th Q drives is the only thing that counts. Everything else is an excuse. Yet Baker has a 1-1 play off record. Better than some of the QB's that are being touted as anointed FQB's. Better than the QB's being touted to come and replace Baker. Watson is 1-2. Carr is 0-1 .... many of whom have played on equal or better teams, been in the NFL longer .. and none came to a 1-31 team coached by Hue and then Freddy
in years 1 and 2.

- My final pet peeve is the idea that when you talk about Baker's performance and you mention some of the specific additional factors that impact his play - the idea that these are all "excuses" and that anyone mentioning these additional challenges is laying all the blame elsewhere. The truth is Baker needs to play better - and I don't think there is anyone, anywhere saying different. The other issues are all additional layers to the point that Baker needs to play better - make better decisions, not panic under pressure, put touch in some passes, not miss open WR etc....

I highly value your opinion and I think that you're one of the most rational members on this forum. Unfortunately that doesn't say so much by what I see the last couple of weeks. .

Regarding Baker. Quincy's video "The truth about Baker" is labeled to be "the truth" but it don't take into account that his injury in his last season. Not to mention Hue and Freddy Boy in season one and two as you pointed out. Either we believe the injury affected him and therefore "the truth" isn't the whole truth or we don't accept the injury as an excuse and therefore everything should count. The problem with denying injury as an excuse is that we then have to use the same logic to everyone else involved in these data. The play caller, our GM, WR, OL, TE and so on. Suddenly the picture is a little bit blurrier. If Baker is [censored] then what about Stefanski and the rest? Are they all blameless?

I'm willing to give Baker another season but he has a lot of work to do on his foot work and mechanics before he come back. Maybe he isn't quick enough with his feet and maybe his length is a problem, time will tell. I'm not in any way satisfied with his last season but I also remember the last part of his 3 season and that counts in my book. You take the good with the bad and I don't give up so easlily.

Colin Cowherd said that Cleveland is a small market, the Browns organization is dysfunctional and that their fan base is toxic. I hated him for that but as it seems that maybe his opinion wasn't so far off. Baker isn't perfect but he stood up for himself against Colin, that also heavily counts in my book.

Yes, I posted the video.

However, the only thing that was left out from the video is how a career can change.

Case in point Tannehill.

Also, Baker's career to date is not all about the stats. In the stat splits provided by Quincy there are numerous disturbing stats. Especially 4th quarter stats.
In addition there are other stats that show he can play at an elite level. Stats are stats. No hiding from the math.

Baker's case is kinda unique and especially difficult to evaluate. Because stats do not tell the whole story.

Baker went to a team that was 1-31. He then went through four head coaches an OC's.

And then he was injured.

Risk. I believe it is worth giving Baker 2022. He could turn the page and be consistent. There is less risk there than going to the draft.

Rodgers if he plays would have no reason to come to Cleveland. None. We don't have receivers.

Wilson is in control of his future. So, that is most likely a pipe dream.

Watson is also a long shot for a number of reasons.

Anyone else is not a guaranteed upgrade.

That does not mean there should be no plan in case he struggles. We could easily draft a qb at 13. Or, bring in a guy like Trubisky or others who have been cast off by other teams.

I agree with Berry. But. I would plan for a worst case scenario.

I'm a big fan of that guy's videos, so that one was tough to watch. The only argument (if that's the right word) I would have is that he presents the numbers as they are. Baker has a bunch of good tape and way way too much bad tape. What he doesn't do is try to explain either of those (ex. injuries in 2021). If the FO puts an asterisk on a bunch of Baker's bad games (particularly from this year after his injury), then his overall argument is kinda toast.

There are also portions of Baker's game that can't be explained/excused by injuries (double-clutching and not seeing wide open guys). And there's the simple fact that this offense probably VASTLY prefers more of a steady-eddy QB who probably won't wow you too often, but also won't crap the bed nearly as much. I dunno.... that video was tough to watch and I need to digest it a little more.

I see your confusion because that's not what people, or me as you're obviously eluding to, said at all. I've actually agreed that we need an upgrade to our WR's. What it's saying is that Baker can't find open WR's. He's holding the ball, double clutching the ball and hesitating when there are open WR's available to him. Better WR's aren't going to make him go through his reads better. Those are two different things.


Sort of like how some fans try and blame all the problems on the play calling when Baker's injuries, injuries on the OL and just the rash of injuries everywhere on the team have impacted how much of the playbook Stefanski can use? Yeah, I get it.

The Browns are four years into the Baker investment.

The other factor is they know him better than any of us.

So the comments made by Berry are accurate.

The Browns are not being forced to make a decision. They will have 2022 to look at.

They want him back and expect him to play well. That does not mean that they don't have other plans in the works. Or, are not planning for the future in case Baker plays bad.

I think it's very easy for some of us to get lost in our fandom. I know I've done it. We look at the NFL as a sport and it's our passion. But I try to take a step back and look at it for what it really is for the owner, FO and coaching staff. It's a billion plus dollar corporation and their careers. They approach everything from a business standpoint and not the way we as fans most often view things. From there we can certainly see some things that appear quite obvious.

People speak of this "nine game stretch" Baker had last season. During that stretch in the Raiders game, Nov. 1st, Baker went 12-25 for 122 yards. Verses the Texans on Nov. 15th Baker went 12-20 for 132 yards. Verses the Jets on on dec. 27th he went 28-53 for 285 yard. Now this isn't to try and detract from his good games which there certainly were during that nine game stretch, but it is to point out that this wasn't some flawless nine game stretch of football QB play. There were most certainly some inconsistencies thrown in there.

What we also know is that this FO did not decide to offer Baker a long term extension based on his play in 2020. They weren't as convinced as some fans that Baker was the long term future of the franchise or they would have locked him up ASAP. They did not.

Nothing seen in the 2021 season that anyone saw would have changed their minds on whether to offer him an extension. Sure the injury plays into his performance and it prohibited Baker from being his normal self on the field. But as such it prohibited him from adding to his body of work.

So here we are heading into the 2022 season with this FO as of yet not seeing whatever it is they're looking for in terms of a long term commitment at the QB position. Now people can look at that one of two ways and I have no idea which way is accurate. They either didn't see what they were looking for or they simply want to see a larger sample size before making that commitment. I'm quite sure people see this from both sides.

But for anyone to think this FO will go into this coming season blind with no contingency plan I think would be foolish on their part. I have no idea what that contingency plan will be. It could be to maneuver the draft to stockpile draft picks for next year. I mean that's a win/win situation. Even if Baker is found to be the answer next season it gives you ammunition to place more talent around him. They could make a first round pick at QB this year but I don't see that as a likely scenario. It isn't a strong QB draft class and I think the risk would outweigh the reward. They could take a second or third round draft pick at the QB position but if you're actually looking at solving your QB problem the odds aren't very good that will accomplish your mission.

Many have put forth the idea of signing a veteran or a trade. I could see a possibility of signing a veteran but as far as trades go I don't believe analytics would indicate giving a wealth of draft picks to risk your future would be the answer they would come up with but one never knows.

It appears from the indications thus far Baker will be given the opportunity to be our starter next year without a bunch of pressure by having a Mitch Trubisky sitting on the bench breathing down his neck. But it wouldn't surprise me to see this years draft include trade downs to build up draft capital for the 2023 draft in case we find ourselves in the position of needing a QB.

For people to believe there won't be some sort of contingency plan in place I think would be fooling themselves. Corporations always have contingency plans any time they see a potential problem. And if they didn't see the QB as a potential problem, Baker would have been signed to an extension before now.

We all, at least almost all, hope we see a healthy Baker come back next year and answer all of those questions. I know I don't want to see us forced into having to start from square one again at the QB position.

And I'm quite sure Stefanski isn't trying to "rid us of Baker" to start over again either.

Well said. It'll be very interesting how they approach this draft.

I am not confused.

My points highlighted how some like yourself have embraced and parroted the 3 WR open PFF article as unquestionable ... how the atrocious PFF grades of the WR have been ignored or skirted when we question whether we have a good WR core - and how the PFF grade of Baker being the 5th best QB in the NFL over a span that stretches over more than half a season is also ignored or skirted. . My post was not directed at you - others have and continue to do the same. Although it was you specifically that said Baker's play over that period was 'acceptable'.

I didn't say any of those opinions were right wrong or indifferent - I said they are inconsistent.

PFF graded all teams by the same standard. Trying to avoid that and to try and act as if their numbers are skewed is a you problem. There's no way to grade all 32 NFL teams on the same criteria and come up with some totally false set of numbers. I also pointed out his poor performances during that same time frame and you refuse to address it. While the overall stretch his play was good, there were inconsistencies.

I have repeatedly admitted that we are weak at the WR position. That is no excuse for not being able to identify open WR's. Those are two different things you like to try and package as the same thing. There is nothing inconsistent about that.

So you didn't embrace one PFF article - but then instead of accepting Baker was a top 5 QB by PFF metrics and instead you said his play was 'acceptable' ? That wasn't you?

And no Bad WR play and Baker not finding open WR are not the same thing. One is bad WR play. The other is bad QB play. There is no-one trying to say one is the other - that's you creating a new argument that no-one made than then debating it. It's a familiar pattern.

I think that's it in a nutshell and grossly simplified.

There's Good Baker and Bad Baker. There are some that judge his ceiling based on his worst performances. There are some that think his ceiling is the good Baker. Then there is an awful lot of rancor over what is a valid part of the discussion when talking about Baker's performance and factors that influence his play in addition to his own short comings, trials and tribulations.

* Edit - Sorry, somehow I read this as a new post. It's actually from the first page.

Oh I see the consistent pattern. Baker good. Stefanski bad. Baker was limited due to his injuries. Stefanski bad because you won't admit those same injuries limited what plays Stefanski could use on offense.

At least you're starting to come around in being more honest Bakers part in it.

And yes, just to agree with you, Baker was great in those last nine games in 2020. Even the ones where his inconsistency reared its ugly head.

Oh - I've been honest when Baker played bad. It's just that people see a post about an additional layer and they accuse you of putting "all" the blame elsewhere. A bit like you seem to be suggesting regards the play calling and Stefanski. ... you've clearly missed the many posts where I mentioned Stefanski's play calling and the team have been hampered by injuries more than we mostly acknowledge. However that does not mean KS has not made mistakes that have cost us a game this season. He gets conservative, he gets cute and he gets predictable (or doesn't make adjustments). That happened last year too. Maybe you don't remember several big leads where we ended up winning in a close game? It's not mutually exclusive to acknowledge that KS had his hands severely tied this season AND think he is eligible for criticism.

I’ll be fine with a BM stat line of 18 of 26 for 190 yards, 1TD, 0 INT, if the game is a W. If the Ws are there,I don’t need a 300 yard game from the QB. Hell, I said to a friend today, bench Mayfield, make Jarvis your QB, and run the wishbone, I don’t care. Ws are what I want.

First thing I’ll say is I’m just a regular Joe fan that has never played football I just love to watch. That being said I haven’t read or heard anyone mention something that to me seems to be a big factor in all of this. Can anyone tell me what factor having so many 3 TE sets on the field does for a QBs vision that is not as tall as the players in front of him with so many players “clustered” in front of him? Wouldn’t that cloud his vision? Does that complicate his throwing lanes? If he comes from a spread type offense it seems to me that there would be more spacing between players giving him easier lanes to see from the snap of the ball.

Like I said I don’t know the game from the inside. Just a fan. I just have a really bad feeling if the FO gives up on what they are currently building after all the woes of the previous 20 years.

Again if you wish to judge Baker on his QB play while injured you are making a big mistake - I don't rely on what other people or analyst SEE when I can see myself. I trust my vision from what I do see. He chose to play hurt but why judge on his play with a torn Labrum??? It makes no sense and would be a big time mistake to throw him aside as if that is who he is. I don't get this 2 game stuff. What we need to do is build on what we have...The running game is there and ain't going anywhere. Keep it going steady. Play action comes with it. A healed up Baker will physically be able to be accurate one of the most accurate in the NFL and we must build on that. Get him one more weapon...either at WR or TE but a stud.

Get a RT that will play healthy and not miss snaps like Joe Thomas did. But if we are going to run this precision Offense regarding air game it has to be precise by all the players involved. I can only guess that is why Higgins was not used, we now know that is why OBJ was useless to us. But this evaluation by fellow dawgs and by so called experts via the use of stats and not on what they see. I have seen and I still profess the talent this kid has his first 3 years was with 3 different offenses and 4 different HCs all Offense based. Last year was the first with a 2nd year in the system so Ski threw the entire playbook at Baker but the entire team of WRs and TEs had to be on board with the system not only the QB. Maybe we have to dummy it down so that we can execute that is up to the HC and his program which so far does not inspire to get this execution done of course we got the COVID mess in these 2 seasons under Stefanski's system this has retarded our ability to execute this PRECISION OFFENSE. Is it Bakers decision process or the execution by WRs not willing or haven't had the chance to be in the program. OBJ never practiced. Landry gets it. I thought Hunt was an asset. Cooper gets it but just is not that talented. Njoku struggles to be precise, Bryant gets it but we don't utilize him enough. This is up to our coaches to get it clicking. BAKER when healthy is one of the most accurate passers out there. Many of you just aren't ready to acknowledge his prowess I know I'm condescending but what am I to do say my eyes are wrong cause many dawgs don't agree. Again it would go down in Brown's history as one of the worst mistakes for us to get rid of him. As stated by an NFC GM the Browns would be making a mistake to give up on Baker. And without "PROOF" he agrees with me that the Browns would be starting another Jersey with all the different starting QBs on it. The kid has it and he's on our team. I don't really care about you guys who whine about not being assured or not. quite frankly I don't trust your judgement and I could care less if you don't trust mine all I know is we would be making a big time mistake to give up on Baker mostly on the merits of an injury loaded season.

I think Stefanski used Baker horribly knowing his limitations of his injuries terrible job coaching and just one win would have had us in the playoffs. Instead we broke down as a team. My question was did Ski do this by design deflecting the season on Baker's shoulders so that many of you THINK you know about Baker but DO YOU??? I think not.

build on what we got. Edge for the D and cornerstone RT along with a stud at TE or WR.

What you say makes sense, with regard to getting more bodies in the line-of-sight for him. That is one of the main differences from his college days, and previous systems. Does KS see this? I don’t know.

Does Baker have to be the best QB in the North
In order for the Browns to win the North.
Baker was drafted to produce division titles
Not to almost get to the playoffs.
You continuously bring up completeion %.
But how many good / great defenses has Mayfield beat in his
4 years?
Right now Baker even if healthy isnt a even top 5 AFC QB

I do remember. That's what happens across much of the NFL. Because in the NFL you're supposed to play it smart and the margin of victory isn't important. Only winning is. You get a big lead you eat the clock and sit on that lead. That isn't just a "Stefanski thing". It's an analytic thing. Some people care more about style points than W's. Not me. I can't imagine what you would be saying if he called an aggressive game when we had a big lead and we turned the ball over and blew those leads.



Oh he is eligible for criticism as long as you judge everyone on the same grading scale.

He has beaten the Steelers, Ravens and has yet to lose to Burrow led Bengals the current division champs. Again healthy and there is no doubt we would have won our division...screw completion % that was for those who are enamored by stats. but so many things Baker does is best ever stuff. As stated all we have to do is get him healthy and build on what we got. Don't know what is so hard to understand about that. The mention of completion % was a fact that he had over 80% and it was a feat not done by many QBs. Bums don't do that stuff.

Just as a rookie in a system built around him he had a record of 20 TDs and ZERO INT from Red Zone experience...Bums don't do that kind of stuff. You all are going crazy over what Baker did or didn't do in a season where he played INJURED. The only possible negative is should he have shut it down...but that stuff is up to the HC..

Baker played well.his rookie year.
But fast foward 3 years, the league has film on Mayfield
Baker may not get any better than what he is.
Yes he may have peaked already.

All the Baker fanclub members never want to bring up
His TD to INT ratio of his inability to finish in the 4th q.

Its kinda curious a team drafts a QB number #1 overall
Yet they make TE heavy sets and running the ball the
Identity of the offense and he can only make vertical
Throws downfield off play action.
Seems like to me all the best QBs in the league
Don't need to rely on play action to attack defenses past 15 yards

If his bad percentage stats don't mean anything, than neither do his good ones. You can't have it both ways.



Which way do you want it?

When you got limited talent going for passes more than 15 yards you need play action to execute.

I don't buy the talent part about receivers any longer.. OBJ and Landery are pretty good receivers. Talent wasn't the problem, It's pretty evident to me that it is the offensive system or qb, or some combination of the two that limits the receivers on this team. That is why I think drafting a receiver in the 1st round would be a total waste. Chase would have been a 35 catch, 400 yard receiver with 3TD's on this team.

You hit the nail on the head and IMHO it's more of the offensive system than Baker even though he has blame in this also (mostly mechanics and poor decision making). Unless Stefanski changes his scheme and plays to the skill set of the players, stating that Chase would have had 35 catches and 400 yds with 3 TD's might be a little generous. Which now goes back to what I have been posting, no top tier FA WR or QB is going to consider coming to Cleveland with the scheme Stefanski runs. Unless there's a change in the play caller and the OC coach - most of the suggestions for improvement in this forum are just pipe dreams. The offensive standard in the NFL now is Buffalo, KCC, LAC, LAR, ARI, and yes Cincinnati. If you don't have the offensive scheme or more importantly the player skill sets to battle head-to-head with these teams you are going to be extremely inconsistent with wins and losses. Just ask yourself - as it stands - is Cleveland playing an offensive scheme to come back from 24 points down in the latter stages of the 3rd and 4th quarter? Does the Cleveland Browns have the players with the skill sets or the coach's offensive scheme to score a portion of 25 points in the last 1:55 of a game? The teams listed above have shown the ability to score quickly and with regularity - have the Browns shown anything near that ability or consistency in being able to do such a thing?

The Browns have the opportunity to build that type of a team around Mayfield but their passing attack has to be a weapon rather than a change of pace to support a best in league running attack. You're not going to get those players needed when it's documented proof that the Head Coach's scheme is based on limiting the passing attack and continued failure of not taking advantage of the skill sets of the players he has on offense. His history shows it, his actions on the field show it, and his play calling without a doubt has proven he is weak at best in adjusting to a real live game situation. Fixing a QB's faults is a whole lot different than changing a QB's skill set to fit a scheme. If you're honest and look at Baker from college and years 1 and 2 compared to Baker in years 3 and 4 and you'll see a QB that has been forced to change from his skill set to a scheme QB. That in itself will greatly limit the type of player the Browns can get to bolster their WR group. They've almost ruined Hooper, OBJ has fled, Landry's probably biting at the bit to leave and no top tier WR is going to subject themselves to getting reduced targets and completions between 30-50 percent to play in Cleveland.

Watched yesterday's late game and was amazed at how open receivers were. People gushed about the QB's but they didnt really do much more than hit open receivers who caught the ball. Not saying part of the issue isnt with Baker, but yesterdays players were on the same page and at many times this year our players were not.

Why do I constantly hear that Stefanski's system limits the passing attack and doesnt involve the WR's? Has anyone looked at Stefon Diggs stats in Minnesota the last 2 years that he was the OC?

102 receptions 1,021 yards 9 TD's
63 receptions 1,130 yards 6 TD's

And that was with Kirk Cousins as the QB; so which is it? Is the issue the scheme, or is the issue the QB? That's the question the Browns have to determine. Quickly.

The Browns certainly need help at the WR position. This was 2020 4th round WR pick Gabriel Davis last night...

You answered your own question because Stefanski was a QB coach in 2017 and 2018 and only had the Offensive Coordinator job in 2019. To be correct, Diggs targets dropped from 149 in 2018 to 94 in 2019 (a 36.9% reduction) and receptions from 102 in 2018 to 63 in 2019 (a 38.2% reduction) with Cousins at QB both years so it's obviously the scheme. Diggs demanded a trade after losing almost 40% of his plays under Stefanski - almost identical numbers for OBJ and Hooper so it's a historic trend not a one off.

Secondly, Stefanski has been a QB Coach for 2-years and Asst. QB Coach for 5-years or 43.75% of his 16-years in coaching and we still see mechanics issues with Mayfield? Soon as people get past Stefanski's playoff appearance in 2020 and look deeper you can clearly see that historically Stefanski does not believe in an offensive scheme set to the skill set of his players but wants a run first team with a game manger QB. Maybee in the 1960's and 70's that was the formula but not in 2022. Drafting and acquiring players with no intention of building around the players skill sets is a formula for massive inconsistency and we're witnessing it first-hand in Cleveland. If I can see it and other posters can see it, you can bet your bottom dollar that the players are seeing it and it's going to hamper the Browns ability to rebuild the WR group.

... on the off chance the point needs to be further clarified, compare Diggs' Minn numbers to the Buffalo ones.

j/c

I've been taking a good bit of time to let this last season sink in while shaking my head at a lot of the absurdity I've been seeing around here of late.
I've come to a few thoughts & conclusions on what I feel we saw, and while I cannot find all of the supporting information I was looking for, I think that if found, the below will bear out.

Baker sucked.
Stefanski sucked.
The OLine sucked; specifically the OT's.
The TE's sucked.
The WR's disappeared.

All of this is aside from the fact that the Defense royally sucked for the first half of the season. Oddly, they are the reason we were in any games at all the second half of the season.

So, what's the likelihood that all of that "offensive suck" is related? I'd think that Occam's Razor says it's very likely. A cascading, compounding effect that we did not - or could not - cover.


The offense came out strong to start the season. We looked good in the opener against the Chiefs. Baker looked good. The OLine and running game AND passing game looked good.
But, we lost Hubbard to a triceps in Week 1. He never came back and we'd later lose him for the season following Week 5. In that same Week 1, Wills had his ankle injury, and Tretter hurt his knee which stayed with him the rest of the season.
In Week 2, Baker got his shoulder trashed.

Offensively, this was pretty much the high water mark of the season. We had some fireworks in Week 5 vs the Chargers, but with the exception of the VERY flukey Week 9 Cinci game where we were gifted a ton of points off turnovers and unlikely big plays, the offense never scored above 30 points again the rest of the season. We lost Conklin for the first time to an elbow dislocation in that Week 5 loss to the Chargers. He came back for the Week 12 Ravens 1 game, but was almost immediately lost again. We much pretty played "Musical Tackles" from Week 5, onward.

So, what's this mean?
I believe that the "OLine Roulette" combined with Baker's injuries led Stefanski to lean more heavily on the 3-TE look than we should have.
I think it is clear as day that the offense we had at the end of the season is NOT the offense we began the season with, and anyone thinking that guys suddenly forgot how to do their thing over the course of a couple of months is completely insane.
I cannot find the personnel grouping stats anywhere that isn't behind a pay wall, but I am expecting that our rate of 13-personnel increased as the season wore on, especially relative to what we used Week 1 and Week 2. I do not believe that the scheme usage we were seeing at the end of the season is what we'd have seen if who we had to send out there was more stable.
The injuries at both OT spots limits what you can do. The injuries at QB have their own impacts. Baker was less accurate, made poor decisions, and appeared to not see things. He had "happy feet" and seemed to lose him mechanics. That, actually, can ALL be attributed to injury and OLine. I have little doubt that he was trying to speed up the clock in his head because he couldn't really trust the protection. I also have absolutely zero doubt that the injury forced changes to how he throws. Face it, when you're hurt and you try to use the part of your body that is hurt, your nerves and pain receptors force you into compensatory movements that allow you to approximate what you're doing, but by no means will you be able to do it as well as you could if you weren't injured.
I think that these aspects combined sort of "poisoned" Stefanski's choices and judgements in game planning and play calling. I think it caused him to go far more conservative than he would have, otherwise. We stopped trying to go vertical as much, or we just consistently failed at trying to. Designed rollouts and attempts at Play Action seemed to decrease dramatically. We inexplicably failed to lean more heavily on Nick Chubb even when we weren't playing the Ravens who were particularly good at shutting him down. The only really puzzling thing is with how frequently we went 13-personnel, yet didn't give the OT's help from a TE, letting them flounder against some of the best pass rushers in the league. Perhaps this is part of the attempts at misdirection or keeping the defenses guessing, but in the end, I think it just made us incredibly predictable as we did it to a fault, and it also put a target on the QB's back and caused him to get moved off his mark more frequently.

We've seen that this offense CAN be explosive.
We've seen that the TE's CAN be big play threats.
We've seen that Stefanski CAN be aggressive and use more vertical WR packages.
We've seen that Baker CAN execute every throw there is with a high degree of accuracy and success.
We've seen that the OLine CAN be the absolute best in the league.

We saw VERY LITTLE of any of that this year, and even less where it all happened in a single game, and what we did see of it was almost entirely toward the start of the season..... so, what's that mean when trying to pin all our woes on a single point of failure like we keep seeing so much of on here?

The simple fact is that this past season was undone by a number of factors, and most of those factors were issues that turned areas of the team that were team strengths into liabilities.

We had the best OLine in football at the start of the season. At the end of the season they almost got Baker killed.
We had a Top 5 QB at the start of the season, but now folks are trying to convince us that he's Manziel II, even despite a name like Bernie Kosar commenting publicly on how almost impossible it is to throw accurately with that brace/sling on.
We had the reigning NFL Head Coach of the Year at the start of the season, but now folks (self included here in the past few weeks) have said we'd be perfectly ok if he was canned.
We went into the season feeling like we had one of the best WR groups in the league, only to have our blinders ripped off our faces and be forced to look directly at the fact that we had one charlatan, one WR, and a bunch of JAGs.
We thought we were set at TE only to end up completely misusing them and making them look like underperforming trash.

Add in littler things like missing Kareem Hunt for half the season, the Mysterious & Amazing Disappearing Acts of Rashard Higgins and a defense that easily cost us most every loss in the first half of the season and it is not a wonder in the least why we are at home in January.

I do not believe that Stefanski wants to ship Baker out.
I do not think that Baker wants out.
I do not think that Baker cannot, and will not, have incredible success in Cleveland, with Stefanski. What was is not necessarily how things are. By that, I mean that just because we saw what we saw this year, it doesn't mean that it is how things are, and certainly not how things will be.
We saw what we saw for much of the season due to choices and reactions to challenges and circumstances. We saw what we saw at the start of the season because of what we can do when we aren't being undone.

Great post.

I'll take it one layer deeper as these are my thoughts as of late.

You clearly paint an accurate picture of a team being behind the eight ball from the beginning of the season.

I have a clear mental image of a team that lit some cigars after their playoff victory and simply said "let's run it back"... from locker room on up.


We made it clear (told the league) that we would be running the same offense... (from clevelandbrowns.com around minicamp)


And we just decided to glide into the regular season based on a lazy off-season, zoom meetings, and everybody who plays a role standing on the sidelines for three preseason games.

We were victims of our own success. Everyone played well, together, down the stretch in 2020. Chubb and Hunt split carries, Landry got his 5-8 catches per game. DPJ emerged. The TEs split their targets from week to week and got the job done. The only thing missing was OBJ, but man, have you seen his workout tapes?? He'll be back at full strength too!


What could go wrong with:

Baker Mayfield
O'Dell Beckham
Jarvis Landry
Nick Chubb
Kareem Hunt

They will never all suit up for a single game.


We took haymakers from the opening bell and never really got our legs back. We went from "pound for pound" to a sloppy sparring partner and never looked back.

The OL was immediately patchwork.
Baker broke a wing. Stefanski (the QB whisperer... "trust your eyes, young Luke") had no answers and Baker trusted nothing ... not his arm, not his receivers, not his playbook... certainly never "his eyes".
Then the Jarvis uppercut. The punch that sent us into the ropes to never recover. He's gone before OBJ is "back" and before he returns -- Chubb is also injured. The offense was in a tailspin and would never recover.


Next the sucker-punches.

The Nuclear bombs on Instagram and Twitter.

The narratives from "Baker sucks" to that we are somehow once again a toxic franchise... No QB would want to come here under Stefanski, no WR would want to come here and work with Baker, etc...

And then the last, and cruelest in retrospect, the 2021 AFC North. No one wants to win it. Just show up at the end with a winning record and it could be yours. As long as we just keep punching we have a puncher's chance. Leave Baker in there because we're still competing for the playoffs.

It would have been way better if the Bengals ran away with it. If Baker were shutdown, most of the "narratives" would have never come to life.

Alas, the final beat-down was psychological, straight from the hands of the football gods... the ones that seem to hate Cleveland.

two fine posts in a row.
I could get used to this.


Here's the thing I continually go back to, when I read critiques of KS being too conservative/predictable/run-first in his play calling: The 2020 team was an unpredictable, entertaining team to watch. That's what made them the late-season darlings of the NFL, and gave Rich Eisen a feeling he hadn't experienced since high school. Same coach this year. What was different? It was the team. They wore the same uniforms, but they weren't the same group of players who finished last season (at this point, it should also be noted that CLE was one of the healthier teams down the stretch that year).

2021, we only had 1/2-2/3 the dudes from last year available at any given time. We had half a Baker for 80% of the season. And even with all the adversity and weekly patched-together personnel packages, how many games were decided by 6 points or less? To be truthful, 8-9 isn't so hard to swallow when we zoom out to see the total landscape. Of course, it's a disappointment. But snakebit seasons happen. This one just happened as spirits were climbing, which makes it hurt a little more.

I guess my point is this: two seasons are a pretty small sample size for any casual fan to think they have the book on Kevin Stefanski or the Browns O. I predict that if this team can stay healthy next year, we'll see more of the football that made Ben Roethlisberger cry in January.

.02

My simplified version of what went wrong. There were two things that could derail this past season.....injuries and off the field drama. We had a lot of the first and a little of the second. Both could have been managed much better by the team.

Sorry Peen Your distaste for Baker has tained your football intelligence. Did you not watch the game on Sunday...Take Hill and Kelce away from Mahomes and give him Landry and Hooper Ya think the Chiefs score in 13 seconds to tie the game , really Peen Just retract your statement and leave it up to a brain fart...smh

This. Assuming we don't create too many more holes in the roster (let Clowney walk, move on from Landry and don't sufficiently replace him, trade away talent like Hunt), I think we're actually looking good given the QB and RT positions are set by training camp.

Before the season I thought it would be poor QB play and injuries. Both played out.

I don't think the drama had much to do with it.

I also think Stefsnski took a giant step backward. Between penalties and not being able to galvanize the team under adversity, I thought he was below average.

Regarding Stefanski... I don't know if I would call it 'below average' (my apologies if I'm splitting hairs). He was dealt tough hands over and over in terms of our injury list alone... and his handling was many times not optimal. Ravens (arguably) had a worse injury situation and I don't think it's hard to argue that they handled it significantly better than we did. IMO, that falls solely on the coach.

And that's what I think people should expect to see when looking at one NFL HC who has been a HC of the same team since 2008 and a HC who was in his second season as a HC.

I agree with that, but with the 'tenuous at best' nature of NFL coaches' general job security I'm not really sure how relevant it is. Coaches are brought in to win games. That same Ravens team fired their DC (I'm assuming there wasn't some behind-the-scenes issues that prompted it). The dude from Houston got the axe this year.

It's my hope that we can look back in 10 or even 5 years and point to this past season as a precursor to a bunch of sustained winning.

I don't really disagree with you there. I also look at the fact Harbaugh has been there since 2008 and they still didn't have a better record this year than a second year Stefanski. It's actually their worst season record since 2016. There are a lot of factors that go into these decisions and it's certainly well above my pay grade.

You are right jimmy, baker played well as a rookie. In fact , put his rookie season in context and he played really well. He came onto a 1-31 team, that was more of a butt of jokes than a team. The team started 0-2 and was being shut out at the end of the first half of game three. All indications were we were headed for another sucky season. And then baker came into the jets game and it was like a light switch turned on and we were a different team. From the moment he zipped that first pass into Jarvis everything seemed to change and baker played well as he helped turn the team around that rookie year.

For some reason you skipped to season three years later. Skipping the Freddie year made sense but why did you skip over the season two years later. You know the one that baker qb’d us to 11 wins and a spot in the playoffs. And a win in the playoffs over Pittsburgh. I don’t remember the last playoff win for the browns, but it was not in this century.baker played well against the teams we had to play and that is all we can ask.

Instead of that season you jumped ahead three seasons to an injury plagued year. Biggest mistake our team made was pushing thru with baker all season. After a couple of ineffective games we should have ir’d him and got him his surgery. He would be well on his way to recovery by now. I am certain the staff saw him as our best chance to make the playoffs. If they knew then we were not making them he would have been done for the year.

Baker will be our qb next year and we are gonna have a really good year. That is my story and I’m sticking to it!

I would rather you compare their team's records than personal stats.

Even though Baker was in a rebuild, you know he's not a Brady.

This a graphic that shows the NFL is very different now than it was from 2000 to 2003. Kurt Warner led the league in passing, while on a team nicknamed the Greatest Show on Turf, and would have been fifth in passing in 2021.

(Also, Brady didn’t play at all in his first year.)

Super, I do not think his point was that baker is another Brady. Shoot, there may never be another Brady. The point is that after four seasons Brady was not a finished product. He was not the qb he would become. And neither is baker. Brady got way way better, improved tremendously. I would bet in those first four seasons Brady missed some passes that every pro qb should make. I would bet he missed some wide open receivers. Misread defenses. All the things new nfl qbs struggle with. And he improved.

It is doubtful baker will be another Brady, but he can continue to improve and become a much better qb. I am looking forward to that.

You're right that Brady wasn't a finished product after four years. He didn't even play in his first year and was the 199th selection in the draft. So if you're saying that Mayfield progressed as well in his first four seasons as the 199th selection in the 2000 draft that makes sense.

It is true that Mayfield could turn out to be the next Tom Brady. He could also turn out to be the next mediocre QB that never progresses into anything special. There's simply no way of knowing. But if you look at all the QB's who started average, which is what those numbers are, and failed to how many actual Tom Bradys there are, the odds aren't good.

I'm one who wants Mayfield to get another year. I know the injury had to impact his accuracy. How much exactly I don't know. There were stretches in those games where he didn't look bad and stretches in those same games where he looked awful. His footwork was off a lot. I'm sure some of that had to do with his injury. Especially during the stretch where he had leg injuries combined with the shoulder. But that was a very limited amount of games during the shoulder injury. So once again, just how much of his shoulder injury impacted his footwork I don't know. The same applies to his lack of finding open WR's. We certainly could use a talent infusion at WR but that doesn't change the fact you have to be able to read the field to find open WR's. There may be a connection to the injury in that regard as well but that seems somewhat far fetched to me.

In short I've seen enough good Baker that I'm not ready to write him off due to an injury plagued season. Those portraying him as the second coming are no more convincing than those who are claiming he is trash. None of us have any idea how much or how little he has or has not progressed since the 2020 season because we didn't see enough of healthy Baker to find out. I want to find out.

The other thing that has me hanging on to Baker (other than the realistic options to replace him out there) is that he's shown the ability to improve his weaknesses. Obviously, there's still a lot to fix (and re-fix, in some cases) but he has shown that he can fix things in his game in the past (while the season is going on, to boot).

I'm not even sure if he has that much to fix. I just feel the injuries provide more questions than answers. It very well could be that a healthy Baker has good footwork. That would improve his accuracy. They worked on it a lot. He does have some escapability when he's healthy so that may help in him being more comfortable in going through his reads. For me there are a lot of questions and I don't know the answers to those questions.

Not strictly directed towards you but there is one thing I believe posters should keep in mind. We went 11-5 last year. Most posters wish to point that out and it's certainly a fact that can't be denied. Which opened the door for this FO to spend the entire off season to at least try and negotiate a long term contract extension with Baker. We never even heard so much as a rumor that it was even attempted. So as much as some wish to label everyone who questions Baker as being a "hater", maybe they should stop and think that if this FO was sold on Baker like they are, they woud ahve already been trying to sign him to a long term deal. All evidence to this point indicates they have questions too.

Which is why they chose to pick up their fifth year option and wait it out. To give him that fifth year to see what he becomes. That's the same thing I want. If that makes me a hater, so is our FO. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

Evaluate years in isolation. However, be aware of trends.

Have patience with quarterbacks. It is a difficult position. It takes time to learn.

I want Baker to play this year.

I like Stafanski. IMO he has the makings of a good coach. Owners need patience. Some coaches make it clear that they don't have it.

Others grow each year and become really good.

Kind of a know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

[/b]

Originally Posted by bonefish

Evaluate years in isolation. However, be aware of trends.

Have patience with quarterbacks. It is a difficult position. It takes time to learn.

I want Baker to play this year.

I [b]like Stafanski. IMO he has the makings of a good coach. Owners need patience. Some coaches make it clear that they don't have it.

Others grow each year and become really good.

Kind of a know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

Please elaborate “he has the makings of a good coach”

I don’t like him so it’s interesting to listen to others opinions.

I have been following team sports for over 50 years and I just can’t see something special with Stefanski. I compare to other NFL head coaches. The best managers I know from Europe in soccer like Jürgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola. NHL and SHL coaches or other successful coaches I have remember over the years. I just don’t see it.

He’s not a typical intellectual coach. His speeches is rather simple, more like a diplomat then a successful coach. He often make excuses after losses and often just accept his shortcomings. I don’t like that. His leadership skills is a little bit vanilla, he’s a fair and straight forward but I don’t see that winning at all cost attitude that is a special attribute with many of the elite coaches around the world. His temper is controlled. All the best coaches I know shows temper when things go south, when they don’t you know their time is up. And finally a coach that don’t protect his players well being will never be successful in the long run. That kind of leadership is something that for me immediately send the red flag to the top.

I can go on but give me your views so we can balance my negativity a little bit.

I might be mis-remembering your take on Baker, but IIRC you gave Baker credit for coming in as a #1 overall pick to a 1-31 team and immediately being a key part of an offensive resurgence. I bring that up (and if that wasn't you, then I apologize... it's hard to keep everyone's different takes straight) because I see Stefanski in the same light. He came in and broke/breaking the cycle of hilariously bad coaching hires. Him and Berry have built this wall of boringness that, after decades of drama and weirdness, I think it's hard for Browns fans to watch our team being run by actual professional adults.

I'm not saying Stefanski doesn't have his weaknesses. I'm really hoping that their relentless pursuit of improvement leads him to shake up his gameday role (playcalling). But I think his demeanor/style is what is necessary after so many bad hires, and I think what he was able to accomplish in a very challenging first year is really commendable.

Baker: after looking back he probably should have shut down but he's a team kind of guy and if he can stand up then he wants to play and try to get wins for the team.

Stefanski: I didn't like his inability to adjust his playbook for a QB with a wounded wing. I thought we rolled left way way too often and I couldn't understand why Ski did so especially when we were getting most of our success running the ball to the left making a playaction of faking the run to the left and naturally bootlegging to the right...but we would fake the run right and bootleg him to the left and I didn't understand why.

Then we had that game where Baker was getting killed from the right tackle spot and Ski seemed to refuse adjusting and getting a chip blocker out there helping the RT. I didn't understand that.

Then for me I just thought we didn't run the ball enough especially in games where Chubb was averaging 7+ yards per carry. RIDE THAT HORSE instead we would run under 20 carries which just didn't make sense. Then when Baker was not in the game Ski would run the ball a lot. Why? Baker was injured and it was obviously effecting the passing game. Why not utilize a few plays in the play book that would make it easier to execute. Its all about execution. If I got the right guys and they are in sync I could be most teams with 7 plays. Its all about execution

I don't want SKI fired I think he has to learn how to adjust and execute better.

Baker has to get healthy and put this season behind him and get in the zone on executing the playbook but to get the team executing
jmho

There are many coaches in the history of the NFL who were even-keeled on the sidelines, and very successful. I think sideline histrionics is a poor indicator of potential success.

It's not like he's sitting there with that sour-pus look like Mangini had... or the completely confused look that Shurmer had all the time.

I think comparing Premier Managers to NFL head coaches is an apples to oranges comparison. Bill Belichick is one of he GOAT - he is as bland and non committal as any interview you can imagine. it has nothing to do with his football smarts or acumen. Same with Stefanski.... And while I agree KS has made mistakes - there is nothing that can't be improved and learned from, which is what I expect.

Just like I am unwilling to simply cast aside Baker's best performances last year - neither am I willing to do the same with Stefanski. If 2022 our offense is stale, lacks adjustments and we again (and in better health) come out in 13 personnel as much as we did this year... then I will revisit. But I think KS has shown plenty and he needs a fair shake just like Baker.

I think he had that Shurmur look quite a bit as the season wound down.

Are you serious? Belicheck does nothing but throw temper tantrums on the side lines.

Actually I think my wife nailed it.

I quit on the Pittsburgh game shortly after Stefanski went with the "horse whisperer" approach with Clowney... after he ripped off Claypool's shoe and threw it, costing us a TD.

I asked her later what she thought of the debacle.

"I don't know, I'll be honest though, Stefanski always looks like he 100% just woke up from a long nap."

Simple question to all of you.

How do you rank Stefanski as a play caller?

Elite (top5)
Good (top10)
Mediocre (top20)
Glorified cheerleader (top30)

How do you think he has handle the OBJ drama?

Baker?

What’s your take on letting a injured QB getting more or less brutally sacked nine times in one game?

Hand on your heart do you see Stefanski as a future Super Bowl winner?

Well,pit,I did not consider draft position to matter much once they were established starters but since you do we can look further.

Baker. Peyton Manning

Completion %. 62%. 61%

Yds/game. 236. 256

TDS/game. 1.5. 1.79

Into/game 0.9. 1.26

Qb rating. 88. 85


So as with Brady and Baker, Peyton M was also not a finished product at four years into his career. So apparently even #1 overall draft picks have to develop their skills. As with Baker and Brady, I am sure Peyton missed some passes any pro qb should be able to make, overlooked some wide open receivers and misread some defenses. But he continued to develop and improve.

Nobody knows how much Baker will continue to get better and no one thinks he is the “second coming”. But he is our qb and these stats do show that he is not necessarily as good as he is going to get. He can get better. None of the potential replacements
I see on here have any more potential to be the Qb we need than Baker does. None of the qbs in this years draft look to have the potential Baker does .

Like you I think Baker should be our guy next year. Anyone who would decide to get rid of Baker based upon the injury plagued past season would be a bloomin idiot, and the guys running the Browns are not that.

One final thought. If Baker crashes and burns next year, we will probably spend the next decade wandering in the Qb wilderness.....without a Moses to lead us. The best thing for the Browns is for Baker to light it up and we have to come up with the dough to pay him. I think that is what is going to happen and I am staying positive waiting for next year.

Agreed, and it will probably take another 10 years to get the win totals we've gotten in the last 4. Even with an injured Baker we had more wins than any QB since Holcomb.

Not to mention that neither Manning nor Brady played almost an entire season with a torn labrum, broken humerous and a harness that looked like a straight jacket. I'm thinking either they or their coaches wouldn't have been stupid enough to let them play.

jc

I personally think Stefanski needs to get an Offensive Coordinator and stick to being the head coach. His play calling is awful in the Red Zone IMHO. We get to the Red Zone by running successfully and he tries running a Bootleg that loses 5 yards or we get there by passing and he runs it for a loss of 5 yards and then goes for it on 4th and 12 instead of taking the points. He didn't adjust his play calling to the teams strengths before and after Baker got hurt when it was clear that what he was doing wasn't working. I'll give put that all in his rookie learning curve bucket and hope things work better next season. I don't think he's purposely trying to hurt Baker, he seems to be a better man than that.

It's like pulling teeth to get Stefanski to try something new on offense. < Is that a mostly true statement, a somewhat true statement, somewhat not true, mostly not true, or it's not possible to tell?

Stefanski is 20-15 as Browns coach included in those numbers 1-1 in the playoffs. He has been .500 in the North 3-3 each year in arguably the best division in Football or 2nd best to NFC West. I think he and Andrew Berry know what they are doing and I will trust them.

I love the scheme Stefanski brought here. I also think it would be unfair to Van Pelt (or whoever he brought in) to have them call plays within a scheme they're not intimately familiar with. I hope that maybe Van Pelt has shown he's ingrained himself enough in the offense to start taking playcalling off of Stefanski's plate. I think we've finally landed a great "organizer/executive" coach... one that does a good job staying on top of the big picture and leading the team. It would suck (but would be totally "Browns") if we cut that guy loose because of something like he won't give up playcalling when he should.

as mentioned I do not want Ski to leave the Browns he had some good and some of the execution problems certainly came from the covid environment out there.

But I just read about some posters wife and the tid bits left with her. Well mine also - I think her biggest Pet Peeve was that Stefanski not once complained to the refs. We would get our guys held on Defense and he would never complain. Our WR would get held and the announcers who were not siding much with the Browns would state that definitely was a miss call by the refs as DPJ or whoever was obviously being held and the result was a Cleveland INT no complaints by SKI that totally got my wife going of course working with a bunch of guys every day had her swearing like a sailor on port a call... lol

Nobody wants a constant complainer but I'm sorry there are some obvious mistakes and it needed our HC to yell and complain at the refs. I asm tired of that supposed calm cool HC on the sideline - sometimes you just have to let the spit fly and stick up for the team!!!

jmho

Again, the NFL in 1998-2001 was very different than it is now.

Just my opinion but:

Stefanski is a horrible play caller and giving him a rank of "glorified cheerleader" could be a stretch. 1) He fails to adjust to what the defense is doing but more importantly, he refuses to take what the defense is offering him. His plays are predictable and your QB has to be able to check out of (for example) a run up the middle when there's 8-9 in the box but if you're running 3-TE sets almost 20% of the time you're not putting your QB in a situation to be
successful. Especially when you don't have a single TE rated above 30% in being able to get a step or more separation in man coverage. Then you have a WR group where it's highest PFF ranked player was 73rd. Think about that for a minute, 32 teams X 2 WR = 64 WR's. The Browns didn't have a single WR in the top 64. Who the hell is responsible for setting the scheme and players for the team - Stefanski.

The OBJ drama is a totally failed exercise by both Stefanski and Berry. Look, OBJ requested to be traded during the off season while healing from his knee injury. He caught everyone by surprise when he wasn't ready to go at the start of the season. Now I don't care what the players said and even less what Stefanski and Berry said - OBJ was a disgruntled WR because he wasn't being used the way he thought he should be used in the Stefanski scheme. No one can tell me that they don't believe that OBJ being disgruntled didn't have an effect on not only the team but specifically the WR group. His antics on the sidelines when he didn't get the ball combined with not running the proper routes or knowing where to line up is inexcusable for a player with his tenure. This and the overall weakness of the WR group should have been addressed during the off season rather than festering 9 weeks deep into it.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the Browns drafted a gun slinger to be the franchise QB. The Browns hired a coach hell bent on using his run scheme no matter what the defense does. So now we have a gun slinger QB throwing 250 less passes per year than the top tier teams in a 2021 passing scheme league. Stefanski has absolutely blown any chance of using the skill set of Hooper because of his scheme. Highest paid contract for a TE ever at the time and Stefanski cuts his targets by almost 50%. He's successfully chased away two #1 WR's in Diggs, OBJ, and highly likely #2 Landry this off season while putting together a WR group that doesn't have a single player graded in the top 64 WR's in the league (Landry tops at 73rd). Injury aside, fans want to blame this all on Mayfield who tried his best even though the offense is not set to his skill set, horrible use of the TE position, and a WR group that needs to get better to qualify as "sucking." The inability to build a chemistry with your WR's when they are not on the field almost 50% of the time is unattainable. All of this and was required to play without a #1 WR almost 70% of his last 20 plus games. When an opposing future Hall of Fame QB comes out and states "the Browns are not putting Baker into situations where he can be successful," you have a major problem.

The sack situation doesn't even deserve comment. Hell, the commentators during the game were questioning Stefanski's poor coaching adjustment - actually no adjustment. Nuff said about that......

At this point 'No." Unless Stefanski can bring his offense into this century then I say no. To me, if Baker has a great year, I believe they will always be looking back at this injury filled year from 2021. I suspect the Browns will try to squeeze Baker into a lower contract, so he'll try to walk or if tagged be disgruntled which will show on the field. If Baker has a bad year, he'll leave for sure but someone has to take the hit for having to start over so Stefanski will take the first hit and Berry probably the second. IMHO, dragging out Mayfield's contract until next off season is going cause massive headaches for all concerned. Someone is going to pay the price for this wait-n-see move - just the question of who.

Yes and no - the number of passing attempts is way up. So the number of passing yards is significantly up. But completion % and some of the other metrics are not wildly dis-similar... some metrics like yards per attempt are very close.

Interestingly 2011 the passing yards and numbers were higher than they are now. I don't know if that's an anomaly or what might have caused that.

2001 -- https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/passing/2001/post/all/passingyards/desc

2011 -- https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/passing/2011/POST/all/passingyards/desc

2020 -- https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/passing/2020/POST/all/passingyards/DESC

I don't think you can just dismiss any and all comparisons out of hand. It's not that simple. Peyton's and Bakers completion % would be one comparison that I don't think is something to instantly dismiss. Especially given some of the other factors like Baker being injured this year which are baked into the stats someone posted.

2011 was the lockout year. Offense went nuts for that year and then went back to normal in subsequent years.

Well conceived post .

I think we've come to the same conclusion about Baker being our starter again next year all be it by different methods. I attribute a lot of Baker's issues this year to his injuries and I don't think he should be written off because of that. And it's true that we went 20 years without having an answer at the QB position. That doesn't mean that we will go another ten years without finding the answer if they decide to move on from Baker after next season. As a Browns fan there's no doubt that I hope Baker does well next season. I certainly don't want to see us in the position where we have to start over again at square one at the QB position.

What I probably find the most odd in all of this is we see posters who give Baker a pass due to his injuries, which I understand, but at the same time place blame on Stefanski who was also handicapped in using much of the playbook and had to try to adjust on the fly due to not only Baker's injuries but multiple injuries on the OL. It's as if one of them gets a free pass while the other one doesn't.

Stefanski and Berry should be judged the same way as Baker. Every angle should be covered and even the smallest details should be hold against them. Right?

When we had success in 2020 nobody complained. When he get injured in the second game of the season and starts to struggle almost everybody jump on his back. Even local media and so called die hard supporters find ways to criticize him for everything and nothing.

Stefanski and Berry had an golden opportunity to show the NFL what the new Browns is all about.

Every sensible leader had taken a step back and told Baker that for him the season is over. Do the operation and come back healthy and then we start all over again. Then the message both internally and externally should be “We still see you as our future franchise QB. Next season we will continue to evaluate on how we should move forward.”

How hard could it be for our so called future leaders to use their head?

Bla bla Baker is cleared by the medical team. Bla bla Baket wanted to play…

Any experienced leader, mentor or whatever you call it knows how to set their priorities right. That’s why our HC failed. Baker was playing for a new contract, his future. He’s not in a position to take the right decision in a situation like this. Berry and Stefanski had all the power and hopefully the trust to steer their QB in the right direction.

An organization that is loyal, have trust and when it matters show a little bit of love and compassion sends the right message They set the narrative and what kind of culture they want in their organization. Players and other organizations take’s notice. Media too. Do the right thing can never been criticized.

Berry and Stefanski took the easy way and let Baker walk the walk. Instead of having faith in the process they thought they where the smartest guys in the room. Now when the season failed and was a disappointment they didn’t want to take accountability or share the blame. That’s weak leadership. That’s a sign of big egos who put me before we.

Listen to Berry, He says all the right thing and still the feeling is ….? Like in a marriage. Do you still love me? Yes….. but…. but….I need a more….. time…… Ratarataraaa

Andrew Berry has all the education and knowledge in the world but his experience isn’t in tact with his education level, and maybe sometimes his way to deal with power. You know that small thing that you can’t learn at the University.

Kevin Stefanski tries so hard to be the grown up in the room. The diplomat who handle everything that comes in his way with dignity. Yet he wasn’t man enough to protect his QB when he needed it most. That’s not the kind of leadership that in the long run will build trust, loyalty and love.

They’re young so I forgive them but changing the culture inside a historical dysfunctional organization takes a little bit more then playing mind games with their players. Set your priorities the right way and success will follow your path.

“Instead of having faith in the process. . .”

So going against the advice of the training staff would have been having faith in the process? Interesting. I wonder how that would’ve gone over in the locker room.

If the training staff didn’t see that he was struggling when playing games then we don’t have the right type of coaches. Like you say. Interesting. Especially that thing about the locker room.

So it's more about the rant and acting as if two wrongs make a right?

Got it.

So let's recap. The medical staff said he was good to go. Not only that, he looked good in practice during the week. Add to that he said he was good to play. I think you're just butt hurt.

They said his risk for further injury had been minimized, not that he could play well.


Wearing a red jersey with no risk of being hit vs defenders he knew like the back of his hand.


Of course he did. As would most highly competitive individuals.


Nice finishing touch.

Thanks for the compliment at the end of your post. That's sure what it sounds like. Throwing the ball and seeing someone throw tells you if they're accurate. It tells you if their mechanics and footwork are okay. Now you can dismiss that if you like. Are in game conditions different? They most certainly are. But there is nothing else to base your decision on other than if the medical staff clears a player and how they practice. I guess a player could look great in practice all week and you bench him anyway. But I had no idea that's the way things worked.

Wrong. There was a body of evidence that the injury was affecting his play that grew with each game.

Are you trying to say that Case Keenum would have been a better option? And if so what do you base that on? Do you mean the Nov. 7th game against Cincy when he went 14 of 21 with 2 td's and no int's? Or do you mean like the Baltimore game on December 12th where he went 22 of 32 with 2 td's and 1 int.? I'm not so sure that falls under the description of "grew with each game".

2 outliers. The Lions beat the Cards and the Packers this year, but nobody's saying they're an elite team. The emotional damage and negativity surrounding this team, resulting from trotting Mayfield out there week after week could have been prevented. We would be going into next year on a positive note with a healthy qb well recovered from major surgery vs. the crap we're seeing here. Just look at the discussions. We might have had some "should have played Baker" type debates, but nothing like we're seeing here about canning our coaches and looking for a new qb.

This - 1000%.

Why do you keep insisting that Baker was probably going to be more accurate with he injuries and that the harness was a benefit?



Oh you didn't, I know.... I just thought I'd have a go at playing you at your own game.

I have shown where he seems pretty accurate with that harness "sometimes" and not accurate with it other times. You seem to have no problem using two games to make a point you want to make. And I never heard jfan take you to task for it either.

I'll ask again, the basic question you both avoided. Do you think keenum would have been a better option? If so what do you base that on?

jfan claimed that we wouldn't be having these questions if Baker hadn't remained the starter. Oh for sure that may have helped Baker. But if Stefanski had sat Baker after the doctors cleared him and he was performing well at practice, s#!+ would still be hitting the fan. And Bakers wife would have been screaming on Twitter all season.

Not after a couple of those crap performances. If they would have yanked him at the Cards game where he re-injured something, and said "The injury is preventing him from playing effectively, and it's time to shut him down and get it treated. It's what we feel is best for Baker and the team".....there wouldn't have been much of an argument, probably not even from you. Watching him strut out there with that straight jacket on was a joke. How could anyone perform anywhere near a constistent NFL qb level for 15 games with that on, a torn labrum and a humerus fracture that would not heal without surgical intervention. They can't. It's never been done. Stefanski made a huge mistake by not pulling him.

LOL.... which two complete games did Baker play with a harness on, back to back, that seems to support your statements of him being accurate while wearing it?

2 games is a short sample size. It is. 100%. But when something dramatic happens - say a player tearing his Labarum - and there is a stark contrast between the short sample size before the dramatic event and virtually everything after ... maybe, just maybe, a reasonable individual, a sane individual, an individual without an ever changing perspective .... might think it's at least a possibility that there is justification to look at the small sample size as being somewhat - possibly relevant.

AND .... regards how well Keenum could have performed, or not, is absolutely immaterial when you are prioritizing and looking to put your - alleged - franchise QB in a place to succeed. Plenty of fans think Keenum was as good or better than a wounded Baker. Some even thought our 3rd string QB wasn't a drop off from an injured Baker.

So since the two games you use as an example were two in a row and mine weren't that changes the sample size? You seem to be trying to minimize the fact that according to you he couldn't play with that torn labrum. If that were true there wouldn't be those two games to show you as examples that at times he did play pretty well with that injury.

Sometimes evidence and reflection can change a persons perspective. Or the lack of evidence as the case may be. Because I felt exactly the same way both you and jfan felt at the time. I thought trotting him on the field was crazy. But then I realized a few things. I realized that Stefanski would have to limit his playbook whether he played an injured Baker or started Keenum. Keenum can in no way make the same passes a healthy Baker can. So as far as the play calling goes a limited game plan would have to happen either way.

I also realized I wasn't at practice. I had no way of knowing whether starting Keenum would have been a better decision or not. I was inserting my opinion and feelings on the matter rather than actually having the facts available to me with which to make an informed decision. As of now I have no idea which decision would have been the right decision. I would suggest nobody that wasn't deeply involved in the situation does.

I know on this very board posters were saying an injured Baker was better than a healthy Keenum. And that 70% of Baker was better than 100% of Keenum.

I don't know who was or is right. I don't have enough behind the scenes facts to know. But some people believe they do. That's up to them.

You are assuming that nobody would have found out that not only did the doctors clear him but that he wanted to play. Your claim seems to be that the sports media wouldn't have spun that into there being a rift between the HC and the QB. I would disagree with that.

You are assuming that the media wouldn't have found out that Baker was doing well in practice when Stefanski pulled him.

What I'm arguing is neither you nor I have enough information with which to know what the right decision was at the time and unless you were actually inside the coaches meetings and at those closed practices, you don't really know either.

You're the only one making assumptions here. I fully expect Baker would have wanted to play. After a few of those crap games, the coaches and the team could have pointed to the poor performance and said that they feel it's in the best interest of Baker and the team to get his shoulder treated and move on. Keep in mind the image of him on the field wearing that contraption and playing like crap that everybody witnessed. Surgery was required to repair his torn labrum and fractured humerus. I don't think anyone would have spun that there was a rift if he would have been yanked and had his surgery.


Again, you're the one doing the assuming. Doing well in practice wearing the red jersey isn't a game situation, and that's all that would have to have been said.


In hindsight, we do have enough information. Baker played horribly after the injury. We could have avoided a lot of disappointment, negativity and uncertainty in all levels of the organization and the media had Baker been pulled once it was obvious he couldn't perform. Some of us here saw it coming.

Hindsight, as you stated in your post, is a wonderful thing. Sadly hindsight isn't available when you make decisions. You're giving the Cleveland sports media and fan base as a whole much more credit than it deserves. I also don't believe when you think you know how or why the outcome would have played out differently under your scenario, that you actually have any idea how it would have played out. It's all based on what you feel would have happened.

You have no idea all of the factors involved into coming to the decision they made or how things would have turned out had they made a different decision. And neither do I. The only difference is that I'm not the one claiming to know.

2 random games amongst 16 games ... does not a strong argument make. But you carry on. 2 back to back games to begin the season - coming off the back of a 9 game streak where Baker was rated by PFF as the 5th best QB in the NFL .... might mean something a bit more. But yeah, like I posted, you'd need to be reasonable and sane to think that way. Carry on.

Lol. I knew you'd pounce on the word hindsight the second I hit the reply button. Of course you ignored that I said some of us saw it coming......but you can't ignore the fact that the team would be much better off had we yanked Mayfield as soon as it was obvious he couldn't perform after the injury.

I don't see any reason to think the "team would be better off". The only people who make the decisions are the coaching staff and FO. As I pointed out, they are the only ones who know what went on behind the scene. If you mean among the press and the fan base, things that really hold no meaning as to the decisions made, then you may or may not be right. Your claim seems to be that there wouldn't have been issues among the fans and the media that while Baker wanted to play, the medical staff cleared him to and he performed well in practice, that there wouldn't have been much the same negativity surrounding this situation. I've been around and watched the likes of MKC and Tony Grossi far too long to buy into that. Then we would have to depend on Mayfield's wife not raising hell about it on social media.

Nah, there would have still been hell raised. This time it would have been portrayed as a rift between the HC and our QB.

You either believe he could play with the harness or not. You want it both ways. Sure he certainly didn't play well with it the vast majority of the time. But at times he did. I know, "Well yeah, he did but that doesn't count".

Alrighty then.

Funny. No I don't want it both ways.

And 'vast majority of the time' is an understatement. And that really is the point that I and others have made. Thank you.

Sadly you missing my point.

It’s about culture and values. It’s about doing the right thing even when the stakes are high.

You think I’m upset because it’s Baker. Yes I like him but doing the right thing should apply to anyone that you care about. If Berry and Stefanski are serious about making the Browns a successful organization then they have to create a culture built of good and sustainable values. Key words like trust and loyalty. Honest and straight forward communications. Having the right priorities. Doing the right things that creates harmony and a positive atmosphere, things that creates success and long term friendships.

Looking out for your players long term well being is probably near the top of that list. Without them being relatively healthy and feeling that they’re part of a caring family you win nothing.

Baker was wearing a harness and sooner or later he needed a operation. That’s all we need to know. It’s simple. Short or longterm strategy?

Then my last point.

The medical staff’s opinion is only one piece of the puzzle. There is so much more to take into account. The list is long but you saw the end result with playing Baker. Did he look 100% healthy to you? Confidence? Fear? Mood? I can go on but this isn’t specifically about Baker himself, it’s about how this organization taking care of their most valuable assets.

Anyway. Berry and Stefanski needs to learn from this and ask themselves what can they do better in the future,

Excellent post

My disappoinment in all this is that I agree we had a better chance at winning with the Baker option out there even hurt. But my major disappointment was we didn't cherry pick plays that would be executed much more easier by Baker with the injury.

I've mentioned we rolled out left way too often and he was night and day different in his throws from stepping left and stepping right....the shoulder turn is a major part of the throwing techniques of the QB...when left he was throwing all arm.

Also we should have been more dominant with our run attack as we did when Baker was not starting at QB.

Play action was an area where Baker was high up there in NFL status of execution. Why did we go too many times especially in the red zone and goal to go with an empty backfield telling all that we were passing...that was borderline stupid.

So ok we made the decision and it was a coaching decision not a players if the player dictated the decision then we got the wrong HC for sure. But OK put him out there but give him an environment to execute plays in.

jmho

I nor anyone else really knows what is going on in the FO or Stefanski's head about Mayfield. What seems to be very obvious though is that during the 9-game stretch of 2020 and the first 2-games of 2021, Mayfield performed at a high enough level of expectation that would make one believe that after 20 plus years the Browns had finally found their franchise QB. The W-L record was acceptable, the completion % was there, a playoff appearance and win was on the resume and even though the offense was not built to his skill set, Mayfield seemed to have a fairly accurate grasp as how to execute it successfully. Mayfield was doing all of this without a #1 WR who as it turns out was disgruntled the entire time, lack of an effective TE due to the scheme being played, and a defense that was leaking like a bucket full of holes even after it being the entire focus of the off season. That 11-game stretch, combined with what Mayfield was able to accomplish on the field his first 2-years with a team that had a 1-31 record at his arrival all the while be challenged with 3 different head coaches and schemes was somewhat remarkable and most franchises would be giddy yet Mayfield's future was still questioned by the FO, head coach, and some unappreciative fans.

Enter the injury during week-2 of the season. An injury that was serious enough that surgery was necessary to correct the problem. Now whether you are on the side that he should have continued to play or the other where he should have shut down is really immaterial at this point. Stefanski and the FO to a lesser extent, made the decision to trot out their franchise QB for 12 more games when they and the world knew he was not close to 100%. Game film would clearly show that the injury effected Mayfield's accuracy. He was unable to make all the throws, challenged his footwork, and led to additional minor injuries that Mayfield had to fight through as the season progressed. Additionally, add into the fact that Mayfield lost both starting tackles for an extended period, both RB's for a period, a WR group without a single receiver PFF rated in the top 64 (Landry was best at 73rd) and a TE group that as a whole couldn't get a step or more separation in man coverage even 30% of the time. Yet Mayfield was still out there injury and all competing in a scheme that isn't close to using his skill set at a level where the team lost 6 games by 6 points of less and was competitive down to the last 2 weeks with a QB playing 12 games nowhere near 100%.

Fast forward to today and now you have hoards of fans screaming to replace Mayfield. Let's ignore everything else and crucify the QB. The season collapse is all Baker's fault and he needs to be replaced. So much so that there's even been posters here campaigning for 'Trubisky," REALLY? Let's get Cousins that would cost double the money for a player that is 7-years older, has always had better talent to work with, better coaching stability, experience, and just 1 less loss than Mayfield over the last 4-years. Really, you think that would be a step up? Stefanski and Berrry are the decision makers - not Mayfield, the medical group, fans, or the press. They proceeded to trot out their franchise QB after a serious injury knowing full well that Mayfield was not close to being 100%. Now the FO and Stefanski might have thought that even a Mayfield at 75% was their best chance to win. If that was the case, then 2 things become glaringly apparent: 1) Who's responsible for ok'ing a backup QB who is incapable of replacing a 75% or less physically able starter and 2) Where's the open and solid support from the FO and head coach for a QB that just gave you 1,000 percent effort with a body that was less than 75% capable of performing up to the level previously exhibited?

This is not about being a Baker fan or not, this is about laying all the blame on Mayfield. Mayfield had nothing to do with the selection of the very weak WR group. It was not Mayfield's plan to run 2 and 3 TE sets almost 50% of the plays in a vanilla predictable offense. Mayfield had nothing to do with the selection of the backup tackles trotted out to protect him. Yet Mayfield is the fall guy for everything concerned according to posters on this forum. The buck stops at Stefanski and Berry because they are the decision makers. They are the ones who made a conscious decision to play Mayfield at less than 75%. Stefanski is the one who set the scheme and called the plays whether they were set to what Baker could do, the skill set, or not.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/badly-cleveland-browns-receiver-look-110039886.html

Many of the same questions I have are in this article. I'm not saying Mayfield doesn't have things to work on - of course he does - he's only in his 5th year. However, the DECISION making process cannot be ignored and Stefanski and Berry have way more liability than some will accept. Afterall, THEY ARE THE DECISION MAKERS and some of those decisions hurt the Browns way more than Baker's injury plagued sub-par play - whether you want to accept that or not.

I think the scheme that Stefanski runs doesnt stress the defense
In fact his scheme where the ball distribution is heavily placed on running
The ball and throwing 2nd level passes to TEs speaks is not a recipie
Of being able to consistently score over 24 pts a game

Baker Mayfield was the 1st QB taken in.that draft and basically his
Role has been reduced to a game manager
Yet look around the AFC, guys like Burrow Allen Mahomes and Herbert
Their offensives go through them.
Baker is not asked to carry the offense like those QBs yet he has more
INTs per pass attempts than the Big 4.
So ask.yourself, why is the Browns offensive idenity running the ball?
Is it because their is no trust in Baker or does Moneyball analytics dictate
That its cheaper.To pay TEs and RBs the big dollars

The Stefanski offense not stressing the D is a pretty good description. It is more of a battle of attrition, possession, limiting opportunities for the other team. It's helped by the fact we have the best RB trio in the NFL bar none. Helped by Bitonio, Teller, Conklin and Wills when they are all 100% healthy. Helped by Baker when he was healthy based on the 9 games last season and the 2 games before being injured.

The rest of your comments about Baker being a game manager? Well that's not entirely true - when he was healthy. But even if it was true - it is not a reflection of Baker. It is Stefanski's offense. Complaining or comparing to other QB's and what they do in very very different passing attacks is pointless. As is referencing where Baker was picked in the draft. At this point it doesn't matter. It only matters what Berry and KS think a healthy Baker can do - and who they think they can replace him.

How do.you explain Mayfield leading the NFL in turning the ball over
Since coming into the league?
It's ironic considering the Browns passing offense isnt exactly.
The most dynamic in the league.
The question is, if Stefanski was the head coach instead of Kitchens
Would he have wanted Baker?

We went 11-5 and made the playoffs when Baker was healthy in the very first year of Stefanski's system. With that in mind, can you explain why Stefanski wouldn't want Baker as our QB?

Bakers low passer rating in the 4th quarter
And he is turnover prone.
The fact that Baker wasnt given a contract extention should
Tell you the Browns organization isnt totally sold on Mayfield
Even a healthy Mayfield doesnt guarantee a return to the playoffs
In 2022.

Mahomes doesn't guarantee the Chiefs a return to the playoffs in 2022 either. There are no guarantees. You seem to be trying to tie the "organization" into being the same as Stefanski. What we both seem to agree on is that this FO decided to wait out extending Baker's contract until they saw further evidence. I've actually made that same point myself at times. What that doesn't do is connect the dots to Stefanski not wanting Baker at the QB position.

2018 Rookie - 14 Int. == Not good or bad. Average for a rookie starting on a terrible team.
2019 Kitchens - 21 Int. == Woeful.
2020 KS - 8 Int. == Very good. 5th best in the NFL with 300+ attempts. Even with 4th OC in 3 years - new footwork and playbook, terrible start, strong finish.
2021 - 13 Int. == Bad. With a bum shoulder. . . but less Int than Allen, Herbert, Carr, Tannerhill, Carr, Burrows,

I know - I know... using data to support why and when Baker was good vs Bad.... someone is going to say I am making excuses.

How attempts did Baker have compared to those other guys in 2021?

A healthy Baker will take us back to the Playoffs ...

Burrow 520 attempts 14 INTs
Mayfield 413 attempts 13 INTs

Peyton Manning:

1998 - 28 interceptions
1999 - 15 interceptions
2000 - 15 interceptions
2001 - 23 interceptions

Manning's first 4-years: 82 ints or 1/27.15 attempts with a 60.96% completion percentage, record 32-32 .500, 0-2 playoff record
Mayfield's first 4-years: 56 ints or 1/33.74 attempts with a 61.59% completion percentage, record 29-30 .492, 1-1 playoff record

Good thing Manning didn't play in Cleveland because the fans here would have been trying to run him out of town too after his 6-10 record with 23 interceptions in his 4th year.

Again.

Manning played in a completely different era of football. This is apples and oranges.

DON'T WORRY! THE BROWNS HAVE A 150 YEAR PLAN TO GET THEM TO THEIR FIRST SUPER BOWL!

Stefanski just watched the playoffs and realized we don’t have the QB to compete in the AFC.

Hell, we don’t even have one that can win the division.

Different era or not, Manning was ahead of his time and QB numbers are QB numbers. Mayfield is actually performing better than Manning and I know Indpls didn't try to run him out of town.

It is. The Manning era of QB's is essentially gone; how many pure pocket passers are there in the league now? Not many.

We’re comparing baker to Manning now.

This must be 4D chess we’re playing now cause I literally can’t comprehend this.

5th year option or not, the Browns HAVE to at least try and make a move at improving the QB position. If that's what the missing piece for the Browns is, then isn't it the front offices job to do whatever it takes? Because even if Mayfield is healthy, can you really say he's as good as Burrow, Herbert, Mahomes, etc?

Only option with have is either him or Watson.

No other QB we can possible trade is gonna be better than baker and the QBs suck this year in the draft.

So it’s likely gonna be baker because he’s the best available. And if that’s the case, there’s no point of bringing in a mariota or anyone else cause it’s just adding unnecessary stress to the locker room.

A very very dark horse trade/signing could be taking a crack at Winston.

That's funny.

I mean why try to have a realistic conversation.

You ask how Baker could have so many Interceptions. I broke it down into a sensible way - and you want to not comment other than to highlight the injured Baker with a harness had 1 less Interception than Burrows. I mean screw the point that the Baker detractors are clamoring for any of the QB's I neamed, and all of them had way more interceptions than a healthy Baker from last year. Just go right to the comparison of one wing Baker with a harness and compare him to Burrows - healthy who is having himself a GREAT season and act like how the conversation started never happened.

I should have known I guess.

Mayfield 1 torn labrum w/fractured humerus 1 straight jacket harness
Burrow 0 torn labrum w/fractured humerus 0 straight jackeat harness

Yeah - but you don't say a thing about someone comparing a healthy Burrows, Young & Higgins to an injured Baker and our supporting cast. I mean that's a fair comparison right. That must be 5th Dimension chess.

Winston is a pretty good option as a guy to backup Baker that can come in and actually play reasonably well.

You mean the guy coming off an ACL tear in his 2nd season?

Our playmakers and O line are better than the bengals. The QB position however…

I think it was more of a “non runnng” QB in Manning as opposed to s “running” QB like Mahomes and Burrow. With Baker being more in the first category.

Maybe. We’re probably gonna disagree but I wouldn’t bring Winston in unless baker is gone.

It’s gonna be mad drama, cause I think in a real QB competition in training camp, Winston would smoke baker.

And a mayfield on the bench week 1 is gonna make the OBJ drama look like a Disney movie.

Burrows was healthy this year right? No torn Labarum ? No broken humerus ? Not sure why a torn ACL from the middle of last year makes him a fair comparison to Baker this year.

Our OL is much better.

No I do not agree that our playmakers are better than the Bengals. Our RB is a bit better - Mixon is a stud himself. Not one of our TE's is significantly better than Uzomah, in fact I'd take Uzomah over any of them. Our WR's in comparison to the Bengals are not even in the same galaxy. I do not think there are many neutrals that would agree with your statement. Anyone with PFF - I'd be happy to see RB, WR and TE grades.

Honestly - I think there's a chance there are more QB's available aside from Winston and Watson (who's an INT machine).

https://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1771047

Baker has been in the league 4 years.

Burrow 2, and has a division title and a SB appearance.

Lamar has 2 division titles and an MVP title in his 4 years.

Seriously just stop it already. Our o line is way better, which means if burrow had our o line and talent, he’d get us the #1 seed.

For the longest you and others have been saying the O line matter more than the receivers. But now all of a sudden when it comes to baker, the the receivers matter more.

The mental gymnastics you and others go through to defend baker would have you qualifying for the Olympics.

Baker is an average QB when healthy. Good enough to win some games, but not the elite QB needed to take a team over the top. If everything needs to be perfect for a QB to win a game, than he isn’t a franchise QB.

Look at you already minimizing our RBs. “A bit better”.

Like I said in another thread. Watch out Chubb, hunt, and D’Ernest. Y’all gonna be next scapegoat. Cause apparently Chubb by himself is only “a bit better” than Mixon.

Next level.

Well, throw in the fact that von Miller came out and said obj told him not to come to cle...
Obj basically intentional dropping passes to get traded.
We lost 2 games because of obj.

Baker will get his shot next year.

That’s a fine perspective if you’re a deep state guy.

But trying to claim he was intentionally dropping passes is still hilarious nonetheless.

I mean, yeah... he wasn't like batting down passes like a DB... but do you think with all the smoke that he was motivated and pulling in the same direction?

He dropped (2) 4th down passes and I think a touchdown or should have been where we were in positions to win those games.

Why let FACTS or REALISM get in the way of an emotional argument.

My heart is out of patience that my Brain would say the team should have.
Why Have Patience with the Browns Organizaton, what the heck has that ever gotten us!!

Yea and he got thoroughly roasted for it when it happened.

But your logic, I can claim that baker lost us all those OTHER games because he refused to throw to open receivers, intentionally threw into double coverage, and intentionally lowered our chances of winning by going out there playing injured.

If you really want to go down such a ridiculous rabbit hole, then cool. Ready when you are.

What do you call Burrow if not a pocket passer?

Burrow (118 season rushing yds), Cousins (115), Rodgers (101), Carr (108), Roethlisberger (5), Stafford (43), Mills (44), Jimmy G (51), Goff (87), M. Jones (129), Bridgewater (106), Brady (81),
Ryan (82), Tagovailoa (128), Mayfield (134), Prescott (146). 16 players playing QB that averaged less than 10 rushing yards per game in 2021 thus being pocket passers.

R. Wilson (183 rushing yds), Z. Wilson (185), Wentz (215), Tannehill (270), D. Jones (298), Herbert (302). 6 additional starters that averaged less than 18 yards per game in 2021. These would qualify as mostly pocket passers.

That leaves 10 teams that might be considered not pocket passers: Newton, Heinicke (313 rushing yards), Lawrence (334), Hill (374), Mahomes (381), Fields (420), Murray (423), Allen (763), Jackson (767), Hurts (782).

Interesting that this year's Super Bowl will feature 2 pocket passers.

Man you have the bug bad.

1. Change the topic because I guess what I said made a bit too much sense and that comparing a healthy Burrows, Young and Higgins to injured Baker and his supporting case was not a good comparison. And that our playmakers are NOT better than the Bengals cast.

2. I've seen you make the same made up lie that posters will say our RB's are trash to excuse poor play by Baker. That's a Swish thing in your head that you've invented and posted multiple times now. Mixon is a genuine stud - he's possibly better than Hunt. He's not as good as Chubb. Only in your head is me saying that Chubb is a bit better than Mixon some sort of slight on Chubb. Mixon is a top 5 RB in the NFL.

Guess I can add you to the list of crazies when it comes to Baker talk.

Why would he? Dude had been getting blamed since he got traded here. He played hurt all of 2019, still out over over 1k yards and still was blamed.

Then in 2020, he gets hurt trying to tackle the guy who picked off yet another trash baker mayfield throw.

Then comes back way too early to PLAY for the team, and gets blamed by the baker stans anyway. Then he leaves, and yet we got people claiming it’s still OBJs fault.

I saw OBJ, who we all clearly know didn’t want to be here - try to buy into cleveland and baker, only to realize that baker sucks. Plenty of players get drafted/traded to teams they didn’t want to be at. I’m sure Megatron wasn’t thrilled to be in Detroit, either.

But he tried and his teammates love him. He came out here and played while injured just like baker, and yet he catches more heat than the QB who leads the league in picks and batted passes since he was drafted.

Njoku, Chubb, and the o line. Get ready cause y’all next on the chopping block.

If obj would have just done his job vs spending the season sabotaging the team... we would be in the playoffs.

The is nothing left to discuss. Baker was injured all season. Trying to have a conversation about his stats is pointless. He will be better next year or he will be gone.

Either former Brown K'Wan Williams, Safety 49ers, or Former Brown, OBJ will be playing in the Super bowl.

IF the Bengals had lost it wouldn't have meant much changed.
But since the Bengals beat the Chiefs, and are headed to the Super Bowl, then there is just no reason to have patience with this Browns organization. I don't care if the Quarterback, or the Head Coach, or anyone else is responsible for them not having a passing game,
They just don't have one!

You’re the one saying our RBs are only a bit better than mixon. Chubb is better than mixon, and our RB group as whole is worlds better.

I didn’t lie about anything. And of course the truth sounds crazy to you. I’m defending our offense as a whole and blaming the guy with the ball in his hand every snap, and you’re downplaying our talent just to defend one dude.

One of us is definitely crazy.

The stats say that Baker ran more than Burrow's in 2 less games. According to your reasoning, Burrow should be classified as a pocket passer.

so if obj, who plays the most dependent position in football, does his job, we’re in the playoffs.

But somehow, the guy who has the ball in his hands every snap and LOST us games with and without OBJ on the field, isn’t responsible for the team missing the playoffs.

Seriously, what am I suppose to do with this?

We didn't have a WR rated in the top 64 in the league with Landry at 73rd being the highest Brown rated.

Using fan hottakes to justify a guy who wanted to leave right when he arrived... and got out the way he did....

People on Twitter who are doing the "you're not a real fan" thing are dumb... but I don't understand how you can defend a guy that did your team like this.

Him not wanting to be here is vastly different than a poster claiming he intentionally tanked on the field to get off the team. That’s what I’m pushing back on.

Please keep up on the convo if you plan on jumping in.

Myles Garrett, go ahead and put your house up on the market. You’re the next meat shield for baker mayfield after Chubb and hunt.

I'm keeping up just fine. The above are all excuses for the same guy that obviously never bought in and was constantly orchestrating his way out of town.


OBJ's bad attitude is because of

1. Fans
2. Baker
3. Mean fans again


It's funny you bring up Megatron. How many teams did he whine his way out of? Tell his buddies not to come to?

seriously.

Again, there are ton of players who don’t like the team they’re playing on.

But then claiming they’re intentionally dropping passes on the field to get off the team is nonsense. And by that logic, as I ALREADY said, I can then claim that baker mayfield lost games by intentionally throwing into double coverages and not hitting open receivers.

All I ever ask on this board: what’s the standard?

Reading post after post with a couple members arguing back and forth about nothingness seems to be the only "standard" standard.

You are so adamant to blame baker it's kinda disturbing. He was injured. He played like a different qb before he was injured. He had the best completion %in the nfl.

Hopefully the kid gets healthy and gets us to the playoffs next year. Otherwise. It will be another rebuild or a retread qb who is half as good of a qb that we need to get to the playoffs.

Baker sucked. The difference here is he was fully committed.

I also didn't say he was intentionally dropping passes. I just wonder if he was giving full effort. He had steaks of games where he dropped multiple passes that hit him in the chest. Now he's found his hands... and all that was going on while he was trying to get out. There's too much smoke, imo.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/dawgpo...ell-beckham-cant-stop-dropping-ball/amp/

After a couple of huge drops by Odell Beckham, Jr. on fourth down this season, the Cleveland Browns receiver decided he needed to address this issue. Which he claimed was a non-issue.

Beckham discussed several things including his desire to win a championship — which is stronger than wanting the ball in his hands according to OBJ.


☰


Odell Beckham can’t stop dropping the ball
by Randy Gurzi14w ago
Despite his claims about not dropping the ball, Odell Beckham, Jr. is struggling with butterfingers in 2021


After a couple of huge drops by Odell Beckham, Jr. on fourth down this season, the Cleveland Browns receiver decided he needed to address this issue. Which he claimed was a non-issue.

Beckham discussed several things including his desire to win a championship — which is stronger than wanting the ball in his hands according to OBJ.


But what really stood out was his comment about his hands being like “Purell,” meaning they were 99.9 percent effective.

“I always joke all the time, but my hands are like Purell, 99.9 percent (effective). I’m most likely going to make the catch every time. It’s the only ball you’ve seen on the ground this year.” — Beckham on his recent drops


Fast forward to Thursday night and the Browns as a team are playing well. They jumped out to a 10-0 lead on the strength of D’Ernest Johnson running the ball as well as a long kick from Chase McLaughlin — who was unbothered by the wind in First Energy Stadium.

However, there was also another bad drop from Odell Beckham who was unable to haul in a pass from Case Keenum on second-and-13 despite it hitting him right in the hands.


The play was eerily similar to the previous drops from Odell, although this one was at least on a second down and not a fourth down.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/01/29/obj-discouraged-cleveland-to-von-miller-last-offseason/

It was during that recovery time between seasons that at least one other player had an idea that Beckham was not happy in Cleveland. Von Miller, speaking to Sports Illustrated, shared what the receiver told him while the two were rehabbing together:

Almost every day, they wondered: Wouldn’t it be wild if, one day, somehow, some way, they played for the same team?

Maybe in Ohio, Miller wondered, daydreaming out loud.

“Don’t come to Cleveland,” Miller says Beckham told him.



If OBJ did his job, the team would have e been a lot better off. Instead, he was busy scuttling the ship AND telling players not to come to Cleveland.


This includes him not trying to catch the ball or dropping it because he wanted out at all costs.

Why won’t you give OBJ the same injury excuse you giving baker?

Obj came back not 100%, hurt his shoulder and still played through it.

That’s to you. Ooo sorry but that doesn’t sound like a guy who’s not fully committed. Just cause you don’t like where you’re at doesn’t mean you’re not committed to your job. Seems like the browns players have a different opinion than you.

But since we’re speculating, let’s speculate. We’ve all read and acknowledged that obj being released had a huge negative effect on the locker room.

Who would the browns players be more upset about being released from the team mid season: OBJ or baker?

Hmm….

Fate, that’s what I mean by standard. It’s like baker was the only dude out there playing hurt. Screw all the other players that were out there playing hurt. Only baker gets that excuse.

Thinking that OBJ was dropping passes in game on purpose is asinine.

OBJ telling good football players not to come to Cleveland when is asinine.

I absolutely believe he intentionally didn't give his best effort which led to drops etc.

OBJ is 1 couch through a hotel window from being AB.

Agreed.

Jimmy G just showed why being a run first offense plays hell with your team when you fall behind. Great as a game manager - poor as a QB when trying to come from behind. Stefanski is turning Mayfield into exactly that type of QB. You'll win some games but when it comes time to move the team through the air when you're losing or need a 2-minute drill, the team instantly becomes very suspect. If the QB isn't in a rhythm and building chemistry with his receivers on a weekly basis, the team is screwed when forced to pass. The LARams shut down the run and dared Jimmy G to beat them through the air. Outscored 13-0 in the 4th quarter sealed their fate because they couldn't move the ball through the air. Is this what we really want in Cleveland? That's what you're going to get with the Stefanski scheme.

Why haven’t you brought this up before?

Two mediocre QBs capable of stringing some good games together followed by clunkers. Garoppolo and Mayfield are defined by their inconsistent QB play.

Stefanski maximized Baker in second half of 2020. Shanahan has maximized Garoppolo. Vrabel has maximized Tannehill. The scheme is what has helped these very average QBs find some level of success.

If Baker was not the #1 draft pick for the Browns, the majority of fans would be calling him a bust and comparing him to Mark Sanchez.

Like the Rams did to SF, opponents will always take their chances against Baker in the closing moments to beat them and stack the box. Baker's QBR in the 4th quarter over his career is abysmal.

Stefanskis offense is really not to.figure out. Limit the runs on 1st down
Force the QB to beat you on 3rd and long.
Hey to break it to Mayfield fans, but his existence of excellance is based
On run execution. He isnt a QB that can throw on 1st and 2nd downs
And move the chains. He needs a running game to be effective
And he still cant beat defenses in the 4th q.
People bring up.his completion % in the 1st 2-games of the year
Any QB can complete a high % of passes if all he throws is underneath stuff
How many times did Mayfield ever really stress a secondary with his
Pop.gun arm ?

I tend to agree. Maybe not so much about Winston smoking him, but the drama for sure. I think the way to go with Baker is to be all in or trade him for whatever some team is willing to pay.

I think we need to stick with baker at this point. See exactly how much the injury played a role. To protect our position, I would build draft picks for next year in the event we need to draft a rookie by trading whatever is required to get a top rated QB. I would love to see us trade down in round 1 to pick up a 1st next year. I would like to go in to next years draft with two 1sts and two 2nds...that will take trading back in both rounds this year.

If QB really is our problem, then trading back isn't going to hurt this years team standing all that much because you are still going to have QB problems. Adding a receiver as an example isn't going to improve Baker all that much if Baker is the problem.

I've seen this kind of thing before. I am curious, does every QB whose first 4 years are like this become a winner? A top-tier, consistently take his team deep into the playoffs QB? Or is this cherry-picked?

Swish - I've said it before. No-one is saying Baker wasn't bad this year. I think he was absolutely bottom tier. What you seem to be doing is the same thing that Vers used to do and others now too - if, while discussing the QB play, we also point out other additional factors that clearly have an impact on his play - injuries, WR talent, play calling and things like leaving TJ Watt one on one with a rookie RT ... you leap to the conclusion that people are trying to excuse or deflect away from Baker and what he did. I don't think that's true.

Other than saying with the injuries and harness we did not get to learn anything about Baker for 16 games this (my opinion) year - everything else is just in addition to Baker not playing well. Two things are not mutually exclusive. Baker was missing open WR - but our WR are overall were simply not good. In Landry's case who has traditionally been our best WR - he was hampered by injury just like Baker, and he came back about 3 weeks too soon. Baker not reading a D or holding the ball too long is not mutually exclusive to calling out bad play calling from Stefanski and passing 3 times to end a game where Chubb was running for nearly 7 yards per carry.

Regards the running backs - you can choose whatever wording you like - Chubb is a top 1-2-3 RB in the NFL. Mixon is a top 5 RB. Chubb is better than Mixon - by how much, who knows. You said our OL is better than Cinci's to support your Bakler take - but you don't want to extend the same benefit to Chubb? . . . It is only you that has said posters will blame RB's for Baker's performance. It's been like your 'hot take' for weeks and you have posted that comment a dozen times. . . . Saying Mixon is not far behind Chubb is not what you tried to suggest it was. And no-one but you is talking about trashing our RB's.

At the end of the day - when healthy Baker played very well in consecutive games - for 9 games last season and 2 games this season. He then got hurt. You clearly have decided that the 11 games were an anomaly or that anyone could do what he did, or yuou've decided that with a torn labarum and a broken humerus and wearing a harness you can see the 'real Baker' and all his flaws ... I disagree. The rest is just noise.

Why do people keep saying Baker played good in the first KC game this year? When his team needed him the most, he failed.

That's the story of his career so far.

This is a problem with baker (on top of the poor play LOL). It’s that even when he was playing well, he still rarely gets it done in the clutch. Wasn’t there a stat floating around somewhere about him being like 2-17 with game winning drive chances?

It's funny. Say something enough times and people believe it without question. In the KC game - Halfway through the 4th Q the defense gave up two TD's in the space of less than 3 minutes, to surrender a 29-20 Cleveland lead. Clearly that was one of Baker's worst performances. Ever.

I'd give OBJ the same injury excuse (or vice-versa) if Baker had magically popped back up and started playing well again... ala pro soccer diving. This is how I view OBJ magically finding his hands again, learning a playbook in record time, and going up for contested catches instead of making business decisions.

The recent news about OBJ not wanting to be in Cleveland (added to the stuff we knew from before), is having me go back and re-assess a lot about his time here.

Who cares what the defense did or that Chubb fumbled or that the rubber mallet fumbled. Baker had a chance to win the game at the end and failed. He does this repeatedly.

Have you been watching the playoffs? Just about every game has come down to the last minute. There are all kinds of circumstances that lead to that and often times it's other parts of the team's mistakes that put their QB in that last minute game situation. The QBs that deliver are in the playoffs. The ones that don't aren't. That is literally the NFL in a nutshell.

If we have to resort to blaming the rest of the team for making mistakes that put the QB in a situation to have to lead a game winning drive then we are reinforcing the fact that said QB can only win if everything is perfect. That's not a good QB.

I agree with both of your last posts.

It seems like fans have pitched their tents. One tent is Baker is the problem and he will never improve.

Another tent is Stefanski and his offense is the problem and we can not win with it.

Then there is the tent of Baker played poorly in 2021 and has been inconsistent. However, there has been times when he showed he can play well.

Berry is the man who charts the course. It is up to him to decide how to move forward with the quarterback position.

I for one believe in Andrew Berry. I think he will do the right thing. IMO Berry will give 2022 to Baker to prove himself.

At the same time he will make plans to have an alternative answer at the position. Those plans could take form in different ways.

The Rams made a trade for Stafford when they had Goff. The 49ers traded up in the first round to take Trey Lance when they had Garoppolo.

Berry will make a move. He will evaluate all options and make a decision.

I will have faith in his decision.

How many games, prior to this year, where we would go score "too soon", and watch the defense give the game away? I seem to recall at least a few.

Regarding the first and third paragraphs, you're saying mistakes from the rest of the team don't matter... and then turn around and talk about other people "blaming the rest of the team". That's hilarious.

And what exactly did you see from JimmyG's performance in the NFC title game?

Honestly I don't know that it is worth the time anymore - it's like children bickering. And I include myself in that because I've said my piece a dozen times and I need to stop. However - on your post here, there are multiple layers to this attitude that only Baker can win the games, and if he does everything to win the game and then there are 2 TD's given up by the D in 3 minutes and it's still Baker's loss.

But something I would add - and it goes to a point Bone just mentioned, there are definitely a couple of posters that think Stefanski's offense limits the ability of the team to win, and the KS offense is the #1 problem with our O. We've seen a lot of those posts and how WR's aren't going to want to play in this offense because it is so vanilla and doesn't let WR's shine. (That's a poor summary but I'm not getting deep into it.) .... I disagree - We've seen the offense be more than good enough last year. Generally speaking. However - in a game like the KC loss - Baker and Stefanski had the chance to come back after those 2 late TD's by KC. The issue I have had with Stefanski is that he gets predictable and conservative, OR - he gets cute and simply gets away what we do really well. AND we have a lack of adjustments in the second halves of games where we led and then suddenly the D stops us from doing what worked in the first half. How many games have we come out with a beautiful scripted first drive (or 2) and then watched us just not be able to do anything again. Late in games like the KC game, we don't have a playbook that would let us do what the Bills and KC did last week and score quickly. Do we score quickly with some plays through the season? Yes. But we don't have a playbook or play caller that seems to give Baker and the team the best chance to come back in those situations. Once again - this is a multi level issue because this year KS has been hampered in his p[lay calling through injury, but I think most would agree we have seen some tendencies that need to be improved.

OK. For a final wrap up, I don't think we learned anything this year with Baker. He was hurt. He played like garbage, his confidence deteriorated, he made bad plays and bad reads. I don't think we learned a thing about him on this year, other than he is a tough S.O.B. I believe that when Baker has played truly bad - it was the Kitchens year, it was KS changing his footwork and a new playbook, and when he was hurt this year. I don't think that's Baker's ceiling or level. Good Baker turned a 1-31 team around, and he went 9 games and won a playoff game while being graded as the 5th best QB in the NFL. I don't think Baker is the 5th best QB in the NFL - but I think his ceiling leans that direction, not when he has played his worst.

Jarvis did just fine in this offense. DPJ is coming along nicely.

I don't discount the arguments that the offense isn't exactly set up to feature the talent of a guy like OBJ. I think any legit WR that comes here needs to be ok with the idea that they are simply a cog in the offense. Same for QB, though that's not something we would generally need to worry about, because those QBs aren't available very often. I do think this offense de-emphasizes the QB position. If I have to pick between KS and his offense vs any combination of Baker, OBJ and even Jarvis and Njoku, I'm picking Stefanski and his offense. I think it will eventually set us up for success. I think Baker can do well in this offense if he's healthy, but the fact is the offense doesn't need a world-beater at QB... and that puts us at an advantage over everyone who doesn't have a future HOF guy at the position (very few).

I said earlier this year that this coming off-season will tell us a LOT about our FO. We have Jarvis and Njoku decisions right now with Baker, Hunt on the horizon... all big contributors that were brought in by previous regime and may or may not fit with what the offense is or is intended to be.

Agree with you both, and jfan makes some great points on this subject as well as putting the timeline into perspective, but I'm much more on Pit's side of the fence here.

We were eliminated from the playoffs 7 days before the end of the season. Not just a wild-card, looking forward to playing a high-seed; but the division with a playoff game in Cleveland. Second year coach and second year GM are not pulling 4th year QB to insert back-up into a dysfunctional offense. No go-to receiver, constant injuries at skill positions, no cohesion and a patchwork OL.

To say they "should have" pulled Mayfield is 100% accurate, but the enemy walking side by side with Baker was a shot at the division that never seemed to go away. Seemed all you had to do is show up with a winning record at the end... and we just needed Mayfield (and the rest of the team) to fight and claw to do it.

Notice how they turned the conversation towards OBJ again? That's their go to when defending Baker. Look, Baker was injured this season and like many I'm not going to try and judge him based on this season. This FO saw enough in Baker to pick up his fifth year option but not enough confidence in him to negotiate a long term extension with him. So much like myself they don't think Baker is bad but they aren't yet convinced. They want to see another year of him before making a final decision. I don't blame them. He's not proven himself to be the second coming some try to make him out to be and he's not a bag of trash like some would make him out to be.

So everyone saying get rid of him and move on do not see what this FO sees. Everyone saying he's the answer disagrees with the FO and doesn't see what the FO sees or he would have already gotten a contract externsion.

To the entire OBJ thing it's hilarious. They were saying, "we are better without him". That was proven to be false. So they then switched up to "he played bad on purpose".

So their opinion has shifted to OBJ hurt his own value and career on purpose. That he purposefully undermined himself and his future earning potential just to screw the Browns. No rational thinking person could believe that.

It's very hard to conclude you should have pulled your starting QB when you're still in the playoff hunt with him as your starter. As soon as we were eliminated Baker sat the last game and got his surgery. They say hindsight is 20/20 but even in hindsight pulling your starter while you're still in the playoff hunt isn't as cut and dry of a decision as some seem to make it out to be. Only after the season was concluded and we didn't make the playoffs does it look like an easy decision.

Yep. Hindsight says best case scenario would have been Cincy running away with the division and the Browns shutting down Baker mid-season. That probably would make next week's match-up more palatable as well lol.

Ahhh the hypothetical...Where would the Browns be and would this conversation happen if Anthony Schwartz didn't stop his route or dove for the ball?

I personally believe that every position on an offense has an effect on the play of the other positions. The WRs affect the play of the QB. The QB affects the WRs. The OTs affect the QB. And so on.

The idea that any position in an NFL offense operates in a vacuum, is simply not realistic. They all influence and affect each other to varying degrees.

I don’t blame Baker, the same as I don’t blame the WRs, nor any other player. Had a few more of Baker’s passes been on the money, not a lot, say 5, and had the WRs dropped 5 fewer passes, and especially, had 5 more kicks been good, they would be in the playoffs.

It sure would. lol

Next week is conflicted for me. We beat the Bengals twice this past season so it would kind of be a feather in our cap to have beaten the Super Bowel winner twice. At the same time I feel bad that a good QB like Stafford was stuck in Detroit all of those years which stopped him from winning and getting the recognition he deserved. To say I don't really care who wins would be an understatement.

Since 1998, there has been 44 QB's drafted within the first 16 picks of the draft or 1/2 of the league. Since I am only looking at the first 4-years, no QB's are listed from after the 2018 draft. The first thing I looked at was what the state of the team was the previous 2-years. What kind of situation (W/L) wise was the new QB facing once they were drafted and then what was the team's record after their first 4-year's:

1. 1999 Couch CLE (New Franchise) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 19-32)
2. 2002 David Carr HOU (New Franchise) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 16-43)
3. 2018 Mayfield CLE (1-31) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 29-30 Plus 1-1 in playoffs)
4. 2010 Bradford STL (4-29) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 18-30-1)
5. 2007 Russell OAK (6-26) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 7-18)
6. 2014 Bortles JAX (6-26) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 21-40 plus 2-1 in playoffs)
7. 2015 Winston TBB (6-26) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 21-33)
8. 2009 Stafford DET (7-25) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 17-28 plus 1-1 in playoffs)
9. 1999 McNown CHI (8-24) #12 overall (first 4-year's record 3-12)
10. 2003 Palmer CIN (8-24) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 32-29 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
11. 2001 Vick ATL (9-23) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 23-12-1 plus 2-2 in playoffs)
12. 2005 Smith SFO (9-23) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 11-19)
13. 2006 Young TEN (9-23) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 26-13 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
14. 2015 Mariota TEN (9-23) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 27-28 plus 1-1 in playoffs)
15. 2017 Trubisky CHI (9-23) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 29-21 plus 0-2 in playoffs)
16. 1999 McNabb PHI (9-22-1) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 31-17 plus 4-3 in playoffs)
17. 1999 Akili Smith CIN (10-22) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 3-14)
18. 2011 Newton CAR (10-22) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 30-31-1 plus 1-2 in playoffs)
19. 2018 Darnold NYJ (10-22) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 17-32)
20. 2002 Harrington DET (11-21) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 18-37)
21. 2006 Leinart ARI (11-21) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 7-10)
22. 2008 Ryan ATL (11-21) #3 overall (first 4-year's record 43-19 plus 0-3 in playoffs)
23. 2012 Griffin III WAS (11-21) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 15-25 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
24. 1998 P. Manning IND (12-20) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 32-32 plus 0-2 in playoffs)
25. 1998 Leaf SDC (12-20) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 4-17)
26. 2003 Leftwich JAX (12-20) #7 overall (first 4-year's record 24-20 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
27. 2004 Rivers NYG to SDC (12-20) #4 overall (first 4-year's record 25-7 plus 3-2 in playoffs)
28. 2012 Luck IND (12-20) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 35-20 plus 3-3 in playoffs)
29. 2013 Manuel BUF (12-20) #16 overall (first 4-year's record 8-11)
30. 2009 Sanchez NYJ (13-19) #5 overall (first 4-year's record 33-29 plus 4-2 in playoffs)
31. 2012 Tannehill MIA (13-19) #8 overall (first 4-year's record 29-35)
32. 2016 Goff LAR (13-19) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 33-21 plus 2-2 in playoffs)
33. 2004 E. Manning SDC to NYG (14-18) #1 overall (first 4-year's record 30-25 plus 4-2 in playoffs)
34. 2011 Locker TEN (14-18) #8 overall (first 4-year's record 9-14)
35. 2011 Gabbert JAX (15-17) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 5-22)
36. 2018 Rozen ARI (15-16-1) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 3-13)
37. 2018 Allen BUF (16-16) #7 overall (first 4-year's record 39-21 plus 6-6 in playoffs)
38. 2004 Roethlisberger PIT (16-15-1) #11 overall (first 4-year's record 39-16 plus 5-2 in playoffs)
39. 2016 Wentz PHI (17-15) #2 overall (first 4-year's record 32-24 plus 0-1 in playoffs)
40. 2011 Ponder MIN (18-14) #12 overall (first 4-year''s record 14-21-1)
41. 2017 Watson HOU (18-14) #12 overall (first 4-year's record 28-25 plus 1-2 in playoffs)
42. 2006 Cutler DEN (23-9) #11 overall (first 4-year's record 24-29)
43. 2017 Mahomes KCC (23-9) #10 overall (first 4-year's record 38-8 plus 6-2 in playoffs)
44. 1999 Culpepper MIN (24-8) #11 overall (first 4-year's record 21-22 plus 1-1 in playoffs)

As you can see, no QB since 1998 has come to a franchise through the draft with a worst W/L record the previous two years than what Mayfield experienced coming to Cleveland. Add to that fact that he has had 3 different head coaches in 4-years and 4 offensive coordinators the chance for failure greatly increases.

If you look at some of the other stats like interceptions per attempt, Mayfield's 1/34.357 could surely use some improvement. However, in comparison, Stafford's number was 1/35.151, Carson Palmer was 1/32.317, P. Manning was 1/27.481, Goff 1/21.482, E. Manning 1/28.203, Newton 1/35.611, Alex Smith 1/25.806 and Roethlisberger was 1/26.592. That's like 9 Super Bowl appearances by guys who performed at or worst than Mayfield the first 4-years on the frequency of interceptions per pass attempt.

In you look at completion Pct for their first four years, Mayfield is at 61.590%. Some notables that have performed at a lower level their first 4-years: McNabb 56.864%, Stafford 59.796%, Newton 59.490%, Ryan 60.929%, P. Manning 60.961%, Rivers 60.842%, Luck 58.119%, and E. Manning 54.681% with the best being Watson at 67.848%.

What about 4th qtr comebacks. Mayfield has had 6 in his first 4-years. Those notables who have also only had 6: Wentz, Mahomes, Goff, McNabb, Vick, Bradford and Rivers only had 5. In fact, it might surprise you that the top QB in their first 4-years for 4th Qtr comebacks is Matt Ryan with 11.

How about game winning drives? Mayfield has actually had 7 during his first 4-years. Notables that had fewer during their first 4 years: Rivers 5, McNabb 6, Alex Smith 6, Vick 6, and Mahomes had 7. The top Game Winning Drive leader during their first 4-years was Matt Ryan with 16 then Luck with 13.

1. I brought OBJ because it came out (from his own current teammate on the Rams) that Miller said that OBJ told him not to come to CLE and who knows what else. OBJ was caught telling other team players and coaches to come and get him.

2. OBJ gave the least effort possible. He frequently ran the wrong routes after having the same playbook for years. That is literally the definition of playing badly on purpose.

3. Last year was basically a wasted year for Baker. He needs to get healthy in the offseason and we can see what is going on with him next year. Hopefully, he gets healthy and his year goes how last year started off. Otherwise, he will be gone and we will be trading for a QB or drafting one.

Fate are you still not getting the truth that the Browns were eliminated from the playoffs before they kicked off on mnf to play Pittsburgh, or do you get it because your bolded "7 days" . makes it unclear.
but to be clear. The Browns would not have made the playoffs if they had beaten Pittsburgh.
With still 2 full games to play, the Browns were eliminated from the playoffs, it was not a one game could have. Basically after the Browns lost to the Raiders, and the remainder of that week played out, the Browns were eliminated from the playoffs,
even before they kicked off against the Steelers on Monday night football.

A lot of info. I will need to find some time to digest that.

I hope you didn't have to call in sick for the afternoon to pull that together

Actually, you are both wrong. The Browns lost to the Raiders on DEC 20th. The Browns proceeded to lose on DEC 25th a Sat to the Green Bay Packers. Before the Browns had a chance to play their next game on Monday, the Browns were officially eliminated by the Sunday results.

First, the Cincinnati Bengals clinched the AFC North crown with a late-game win against the Kansas City Chiefs. The division was the most likely route for the Browns playoff chances. Had the Bengals lost, Cleveland would have controlled their own playoff destiny and won the division with two victories.

The Cincinnati win left the Browns with a very small chance for the playoffs but required a variety of games to fall their way. Instead, the first game that the team needed went against them with the Los Angeles Chargers defeating the Denver Broncos in the 4 PM window Sunday.

Now there's something else that really pizzed me off!

How is it that this logic is never applied to the running back and O line, as in, an improved OL would never help a Rb,
or this logic is never applied to the pass rush and pass coverage, as in, an improved pass rush would never help the Db's

As Long as the Browns can go another 50 years and never get the passing game figured out, never have a Quarterback and Wide Receivers, on the same team at the same time.
I mean, its working out so well not being able to pass the ball, the Browns have so many titles, so many championship rings, that it's becoming old hat.
(keep putting Wr's at the bottom of the priority list) (Corey Coleman didn't work out, so wait a dozen years.)

The fact he didn't want to be here is something I don't really think anyone is trying to dispute.


The playbook for years? I think you may wish to rethink that. Last year was the first year in Stefanski's system. It was an entirely different playbook than the year before.

That's your opinion and not a fact. What I think is a far more likely scenario is that to some degree you're right and to some degree you're wrong. I don't believe anyone who feels they are at a dead end job or is in a position where they feel they have to work where they don't want to gives 100%. Not so much from an intentional standpoint but they just aren't motivated. Often, very often we've seen players improve by changing teams in multiple sports and suddenly do better. I have lost count of the times I've heard the term, "The change of scenery seems to have done him good".

Being happy with your job and team mates certainly has a great impact on a players performance and is a lot more logical than trying to make up some sinister conspiracy plot that could only be described as OBJ undermining his own career and value on the open market.


And I've said the same thing.

My only caveat above was the difference in how those who avidly defend him are seeing things and how the FO sees things. They rely on statistics which alone are true and can't be argued with. But that obviously doesn't tell the entire story. If in fact it did, the FO would have been bending over backwards to sign him to an extension during the off season last year but they weren't. Instead they chose to play out his fifth year option with no attempt to extend his contract beyond that. I believe that's the difference between relying solely on statistics without understanding that the team also uses game film and puts a lot of weight in what they see.

I'm not trying to condemn Baker nor advocate he is some great NFL QB by selectively picking stats to bolster an argument either way. I have used how many open WR's he's missed to show that you can use your hand picked stats to paint any picture you want. At that juncture his avid supporters will say their stats count and your stats don't.

I agree with this FO in that they need to see another year of Baker before making a long term commitment. I'm certainly not going to use this injury riddled season to make any determinations or use it a weapon to assassinate Baker's abilities or lack there of.

Stefanski didn't change the system of the playbook. There was a lot of speculation that he would. Stefanski & AVP came out and said that they would just add in a few new looks and plays to improve the offense because it would be easier for a coach or two to learn the system vs the entire team. So, they kept it the same as the year prior.

So, yes, all of the returning players had years in the same system (including OBJ)

I have no recollection of this and think it is wrong.

Care to make a signature bet?

I recall much the same.

No. I would love to see some links though.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/new...ense-make-it-even-more-explosive-in-2021

here is one - running out the door there are a bunch more quotes from AVP where he said he would adjust to the existing playbook and schemes vs the team. I'll get them later

Stefanski aims to 'evolve' Browns offense, make it even more explosive in 2021

Sure, the Browns aren't starting from scratch with their offense, which quarterback Baker Mayfield will certainly embrace — 2021 will be his first offseason that won't require him to build a bond with a new head coach. Other players will be thankful for the continuity, too, as their trust with their head coach shined throughout the triumphs of the 2020 season.

Stefanski, however, will go to work to ensure the offense will have plenty of new looks and play designs to keep defenses guessing. The play-action schemes that elevated Mayfield's performance will need to be fine-tuned with new routes and looks at the line of scrimmage. Any new players will have to adjust to the play calls and designs and get on the same page as returning players. Stefanski will determine which plays from 2020 stick into next season, and which new plays he might opt to add to the playbook.

The foundation the Browns touted during and after their playoff run is set. But to keep building in 2021, they'll be implementing several offensive adjustments with the goal of becoming an even more overpowering unit.

There has been a miscommunication. I thought we were talking about when Stefanski first got hired in 2020.

No, I get it "just fine". We were eliminated the day before our Monday Night Steelers game when the 'Gals beat the Chiefs... that was 7 days from the end of the season.

I could swear Windows 95 has a calendar at the bottom right of the screen just like every subsequent version.

Mostly j/c, but as far as the Browns offensive "evolution" going into 2021, Stefanski also said this:


Sounds to me like we were just running with a few tweaks. Stefanski made it clear that QB1 would be running, for the most part, the same exact plays.


2020

We didn't do anything extravagant offensively in Stephanski's first year. We played paper-scissors-rock with audibles. Teller and Bitonio were road-graders. Chubb and Hunt were going to run over, through and around you for four quarters... that's what the opponent knew.

Analytics on Stefanski? There were none. Teams tried to figure us out on the fly, it usually didn't work out.

Vrabel came out with a bold plan when we both met at 9-3... Stop Chubb and Hunt at all costs... he was still stuffing eight in the box just before the half as we scored to go up 38-7. Baker (seriously) looked like the best QB in the NFL. Halftime 21-26 290yds 4TD. Baker hit Kendall Lamm for a TD... on the very next play he threw a picture-perfect strike to DPJ for 75 yards. He even caught a tough, off target pass from Landry for a 1st down. There was no doubt in anybody's mind that we had found our QB... even Rishuz was starting his (short-lived) love affair with Baker.

We could all look up and smile to the gods, and finally, the gods smiled back.

As a tribute to those gods and something that went understated? A rift in the law of averages had every trick or gadget play work at an alarming success rate. Beckham to Landry, Landry to Beckham, Landry to Mayfield, HB lateral end arounds, Landry-freakin-runs-up-the-middle for ten yards, didn't matter. No one would have been surprised to see Chubb throw a TD pass to Baker Mayfield.

We established an m.o. of a heavy weight puncher that was going to bloody your face, early and often, and then cuncuss you late with Chubb and Hunt. Stefanski looked like a genius merely because everything always (or almost always) seemed to work. We bludgeoned more than our share of opponents early in games, it looked like coach could just pick the plays out of a hat.


2021

Same offense. Same players. Our off-season battle cry was "we're running it back!"

Our off-season adjustments probably consisted on designing a few more plays to get OBJ "involved". He had already more than hinted that he wanted out. We wanted to figure out the riddle that saw us play better without him... and quickly alleviate the butt-hurt that our success in 2020 caused him. But we're certainly not changing the blueprint of what was a dominant offense.

And that was the first domino to fall. Stefanski's "paper-scissors-rock" offense showed it's sign as we approached the line of scrimmage. A year of tape (and the horse's mouth) told defenses exactly what we were going to do.

As the season draws near... OBJ is releasing videos that show he can run up a mountain at 20mph. We're putting all our players on the sidelines to watch the meaningless pre-season games. What could go wrong with an offense that was so all-but-unstoppable the year before?

By week 3 Landry is gone and Baker has a broken wing. OBJ is reluctantly back in the mix, but there are other dominos falling..."The Union" is becoming more broken, game by game, their shifts being covered by scabs.

Two weeks later, Chubb is gone and on a path to get nursed back into action... a week after that, Hunt is carted off for a five week rehab. As a duo? The'll suit up together for a combined 44 yards the rest of the year.

Amid all of that we were scrapping and always maintaining the ambition of a division title, as ugly as it looked at times.

But Stefanski always seemed to maintain the same level of predictability and mundane. Soon, most fans were to the point of predicting Stefanski's plays. "Checking out" of plays at the los seemed to be met with an opposing defense that was even more sure of what they would see. After OBJ's and with Landry's absence, Stefanski's adjustments became empty backfields and more elaborate TE sets, all of which served to confuse Baker even more, as an offensive line was doing nothing (compared to 2020) to protect him.


Still:

Chargers: Baker looks solid... Baker Mayfield 23/32 305 9.5 2 0
Stefanski "puckers" with the lead in the fourth. First with a predictable three and out - two Hunt run, an empty backfield incompletion, Hunt run on 3rd and 9. Then it all culminates in Baker throwing a series of stupid short passes during the final 1:31 as we move a total of 21 yards in 8 plays to end the game. A 4th down drop at the goal line by OBJ looms large in the loss.

Cards: Blown out and Baker BLOWN UP by JJ Watt. Another 4th down drop by OBJ doesn't loom large, but the "end is nigh."

Denver: Keenum does just enough to win 17-14

Steelers: Stefanski is awful, Baker held his own but continued his trend of throwing high or inaccurately on intermediate to long passes. Drops, fumbles, penalties. The drops and fumbles courtesy Jarvis Landry... including a 4th down drop at the Pittsburgh 26 to effectively end the game... following a fumble at their 32 the series before. His head is probably not in the game though... he, if anybody on the planet, knew that his BFF would slow down the internet thirty-six hours later with a "trade or release" demand.

Despite it all: Browns still in the hunt!


BENGALS: Browns win 41-16... Baker Mayfield 14/21 218 10.4 2 0 132.6
Baker was back throwing accurate deep and mid-range with five passes of 20 or more yards, including a 60yd pass to DPJ for an early 21-7 lead. Complete team victory, defense gets after Burrow for five sacks and 2 INT.

And that's when Mayfield became "ride or die".

Down the stretch, all we needed was one more win and one more Bengals loss to be playing for the division on January 9th... They went 5-2, we went 2-5. Besides a blowout in New England where Belichick seemed to know our plays before we snapped the ball, and a meaningless 12 point loss to the Steelers the day after our hearts were broken, the other three losses were by a combined total of 10 points. The Bengals beat the Steelers, Raiders, Ravens and Chiefs. Despite it all, we had a shot at the division until 7 days from the end of the season.

This is the price that the Browns pay for being unsuccessful. The search for easy solutions cloud peoples judgement.



This 100%!

I take Mahomes as an example.

By many labeled as the next GOAT with probably one of the best play callers on the side line and two of NFLs best play makers in his offense and still in the 2nd half he looked like a Impala running for his life chased by a flock of hungry lions.

In no time his team goes from heroes to zeroes and suddenly they’re all criticized for everything and nothing.
Andy Reid’s playbook is limited. Mahomes shrinks when the stakes are high. RataRataRaa

Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised by the reactions against Baker. We’re all humans after all…

Odd, Stafford, Lawrence, Herbert, Heinicke, Allen, Tanehill, Carr and Burrow ALL THREW MORE INTs than Baker in the 2021 season. Me thinks I smell a rat here...lol comeon be a little right here on the subject. smh

OBJ was brought in prior to the Freddie season/debacle. He had to learn that playbook (wasn't successful, IMO).

Freddie was tossed after that season and KS came in. There was absolutely a new playbook at that point. KS year 2 was a small evolution on the playbook. I'd argue we never really saw that evolution because the injuries came fast and hard early on.

You are correct sir they did
But Stafford Herbert Allen Carr Burrow all has more pass attempts than Mayfield
So Baker had a higher INT rate per attempts than they did
And Lawrence was a rookie with a trainereck of a coaching staff
Heinkie was a mid RD pick. So you expect him to be more INT
Prone than the 1st overall pick taken out of Oklahoma

The thing is, most of those QB you listed are throwing
More out of 3 WR sets as Mayfield throws more out
Of multiple TEs sets.
So in essance Stefanskis offense really requires more
Higher completion % with very little high risk throws past
20 yds.
Bakers desicion making downfield has to improve
Does it not.?
He has to go.from average to near elite in order to
Advance the Browns past RD 2. Of playoffs.
He has one playoff appearance in.4 years.
Any QB can pull that off.

Most Turnovers By an NFL player:

2021, Mayfield was 11th
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2021

2020, Mayfield was 18th
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2020

2019, Mayfield was 3rd
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2019

2018, Mayfield was 9th
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2018

Mayfield has never led the league in turnovers. Interesting note that Burrow, Mayfield and Jackson were exactly the same with 16 turnovers in 2021 with Big Ben having 15. Burrow led the division with 14 interceptions.

Another interesting stat for 2021 is the AVGERAGE DEPTH OF TARGET Whether Completed or not for 2021: Jackson BAL 9.3 yds, Mayfield CLE 8.6 yds, Burrow CIN 8.1 yds, and Big Ben PIT 6.7 yds.

We were. What they decided to bring to the table was the differences he was going to implement from his rookie season in 2020 season to the 2021 season. Two totally different things.

In 2020 when Stefanski got here he installed a totally new offense. The tweaks they keep bringing up were to be implemented between the 2020 season and the 2021 season which was his second year here.


Kevin Stefanski: “We’re putting in the 2020 Browns system”

Head coach looking to maximize the offensive talent with his own twist on Gary Kubiak’s long-running system.

“That’s the fun part of getting minds together in a room … The best idea wins. When you put it all on the table and you have the empirical evidence of tape to back it up, that’s the fun part of putting schemes together. We’re putting in the 2020 Browns’ system. I don’t care what you call it, really. And I know there’s gonna be time spent trying to figure out what we are. But we’re trying to spend time making sure that we’re hyperaware of what our players do well.”

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/...i-were-putting-in-the-2020-browns-system

I think there was a little miscommunication/confusion. I am curious if there were big plans for further rolling out KS's offense (end of 2020 into 2021, even if they were only intended and not executed).

They just made some small adjustments to the playbook. nothing substantial from 2020 to 2021. That means, OBJ was in the same system for 2 years (same with the entire offense) We are going into year 3 with the same offense.

Thank you for clarifying.

Here's the problem. There's no evidence that OBJ was "running the wrong routes" in 2021. Not only that but as far as "lining up in the wrong place" that was in 2020 also.

FWIW There are tons of articles and comments about it this year.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...-jr-field-browns-relationship-fell-apart

Mayfield still couldn't get Beckham the ball. Beckham still couldn't get to the spots Mayfield needed him to be.

That was on full display on the opening highlight of the video that Beckham Sr. posted.

Late in the fourth quarter in Week 4 in Minnesota, the Browns were on the verge of putting away the Vikings. Mayfield thought Beckham would break off his route. Beckham saw the coverage differently. And with nothing but green turf in front of him, he kept running. By then, it was too late. Mayfield had already fired the ball. And the result was an embarrassing underthrow.


Over their time together, Mayfield underthrew or overthrew Beckham on 27% of his attempts, according to ESPN Stats & Information, the third-highest rate of any quarterback-receiving duo in the league.

Their final passing play together Sunday proved entirely emblematic.

Trailing the Pittsburgh Steelers with 2:57 to play, Mayfield locked in on Beckham dashing down the right hash toward the end zone. But Mayfield hesitated, then double-clutched. This time, he threw the ball to Beckham anyway. But the pass was off target. Beckham put only one arm into the air. And the ball dropped incomplete.

It sounds to me like you just posted information that indicates it was just as much Mayfield's fault as it was OBJ's.

I believe Stefanski said in PC's that receivers needed to be in the right spots (in response to a question about OBJ not getting the ball).

I don't think anybody said Baker is without blame as far as OBJ being frustrated. But there's a big difference between Baker contributing to OBJ's frustration, and OBJ being justified in his more dramatic behavior and exit from the Browns.

Yet nobody has tried to say Baker was a part of the problem either. Here's something you may wish to look at that I have noticed. People claim that "OBJ was running his routes wrong". To which I tried to explain that if a WR is covered they will break off of their route to get open. If a QB is being pressured they will break off of their route to get open for their QB. We see that all of the time.

In the very article SBD posted here is a quote... "Mayfield thought Beckham would break off his route."

So it seem to me that if OBJ breaks off his route he is wrong and if he continues running his route he is wrong.

And I certainly won't try to uphold all of OBJ's behavior, yet at the same time, once again from the article, "Mayfield underthrew or overthrew Beckham on 27% of his attempts".....

After that is it really any wonder why OBJ wanted to go to another team with a QB who could get him the ball?

You see, day after day it seems people keep posting about OBJ's catch rate compared to his targets. What they never mention is that over 25% of the passes being thrown to him aren't catchable balls. I call that "selective statistics". If you isolate something to a single statistic without looking at anything else it can paint a picture that really doesn't exist.

I would call that characterization categorically false. Everyone on here has said Baker was part of the problem (be it due to his inherent deficiencies or his injuries).


I'm not sure which is right, but I read that 27% stat as trying to say that OBJ wasn't where he was supposed to be. I'm not sure which is correct, though.

And isn't that how it works? People read a stat and according to their preconceived notions interpret that fact along the lines of those preconceived notions.

And I do understand that many posters fully admit, as a matter of fact proclaim loudly that Baker's injury contributed to his inaccuracy. And I certainly agree with that. However I've NEVER seen it come up in any OBJ discussion. When the topic is OBJ it's almost always been 100% OBJ's fault. When you point out the general overall lack of accuracy of Baker it's due to the injury.

I started to post just this. It's at the point now (apparently) where if you don't preface any comment about a unit on the Browns with "In addition to Baker's own issues with accuracy, progressions and reading a defense" other posters will jump to the idea that any criticism of any other unit is intended to give Baker a free pass. It's exhausting. The next thing you know, there will be a debate over whether or not OBJ ever wanted to be in Cleveland and then halfway through - having supplied much material to show plausibly that OBJ never wanted to be here - the response will be "we all know OBJ never wanted to be here BUT ... "

Can you please show me anywhere that anyone has posted that the issues with OBJ were in part tied to Baker's inaccuracy this season?

Don't you find it odd that even after now seemingly trying to admit Baker's injuries were a part of the problem, long after the fact mind you, in the end you circle right back to "OBJ didn't want to be here"? I don't. Because no matter how many other factors played into the issue, that will always be your go to line in the end.

I have no idea what you just said or the point you tried to make - other than to reinforce my comment that a disclaimer is needed when talking about a player or unit on this team.

As for the injury - I said all the way through the year Baker's injuries were affecting his play. It's why I said during the season they should pull him and rest him. And OBJ didn't want to be here. He half assed it and it affected his performance . . . . it doesn't matter if we talk about that at the beginning the middle or the end ... it's true.

And just so you understand I will always be pissed at OBJ for his lack of effort for the Browns. It has zero to do with Baker - it has everything to do with being a Browns fan. In 20 years time if someone says "remember OBJ when he played for the Browns" I'll say 'sure I do, that P.O.S didn't give it all for the Browns and never wanted to play for Cleveland' ... I feel the same way about Jamie Collins.

You can disagree all you want. You can try to put words in my mouth I never said - again ... you can even start off arguing that OBJ did want to be here and then abruptly change your tune .... I can't control any of that.....

Whether the bolded part is true or not is a matter of opinion. Which does not make it true. Not wanting to be here will certainly impact a players performance. That doesn't mean that he's "half assing it". That's simply something you have decided to believe.

And I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was pointing out words that never came out of your mouth when the discussion was about OBJ. Sure, when people brought up Baker's poor play you were quick to point out the injury. When people, including yourself brought up OBJ's performance you never brought up Baker's injury. And even now you try to put the focus on OBJ. It is what it is.

That is pretty laughable... OBJ dropped several balls on 3rd/4th down that hit him between the numbers.

Truth is Baker was inaccurate with most of the receivers, it was not limited to OBJ.

The problem with OBJ was OBJ.

The problem with Baker was he was injured yet played.

So on one hand you admit that Baker was inacurrate with all WR's. Then on the other hand say the problem with OBJ was OBJ. Well alrighty then.

For the record, I've never said anything is "all OBJ's fault" besides the things that he can control himself. It sounds like you want a disclaimer attached to every post about OBJ in regards to the part Baker played. We all watched them both screw the pooch (as far as upside, chemistry) for 2.5 seasons, it doesn't mean we can't speak about them individually.

Doesn't know where to line up? HIS fault.

Doesn't know the play? HIS fault.

Doesn't want to play in Cleveland? HIS fault.

Drops TD passes that hit him between the numbers? HIS fault.

Throws a hissy fit and wants out during rehab, after a successful start of the season, because we played well without him? 100% HIS fault.


Is traditionally one of the worst WR in the NFL at converting targets to receptions? He AND his QB's fault. (That would include Eli, since he's been dog crap in that regard since 2015)

Baker under or overthrowing at an alarming rate? He AND his QB's fault.

Tell me "how well we played without him" after he left? Maybe you should look at Eli's record during OBJ's last two years there before you keep droning on about Eli. He was actually benched for the rookie only four games into the season after OBJ left. The Giants didn't want Eli playing either. And not wanting to play for with a QB who has the second most open WR's per pass play and can't find them? Yeah, that's OBJ's fault. lol

Here we go again. The goal posts have moved. Again. So we aren't talking about how demonstrably OBJ played half assed... Now it's how we played after he left? Which has nothing to do with OBJs effort in a Browns jersey.

OBJ could not handle being the #1 wide receiver roll. He is flourishing as the Rams #2 with Cupp their #1.

As long as we include how demonstrably the QB throwing him the ball was playing too. Don't blame me because Fate brought up "because we played well without him" and that people said "we play better without him". I'm simply responding to it. We have not played "well or better without him". That's just a fact. No need to get your panties in a bunch or blame me for moving the goal posts.

Edit to add; Let me ask you something mgh. How can anyone know if we're better off without OBJ until OBJ is gone? And remember, I was responding to Fate's comment. I'll give you a hint. You can't know if you're better without him until after he's gone. And that's what you call moving the goal posts. lol

As you've said in other threads, Bakers injuries certainly played a part. Yet, in this thread, you forget that. You can't change your argument in every thread.

How did I 'forget that" when I included it in my posts? I've never forgotten it and have said it not only in this thread but in the Baker threads as well.

They’re all Baker threads.

Yeah. I'll be honest I'm not really sure how to look at that 27% stat.

Baker certainly didn't help the OBJ situation, but IMO, OBJ's behavior stands on its own (particularly with the more recent stories). I really don't think you need to take Baker into consideration in this case. I can see the argument for Stefanski being part of the convo. For comparison, look at San Fran, JimmyG and Deebo. Dude was going to bat for his QB the whole time when it was pretty obvious what the weak link in that O was.

Did you watch the 2020 season after his injury? Lol.

No, let's look at "after he left", with...

A QB with a broken wing.
A MASH unit at OL.
Landry injured (in some way) for almost the entire season. Dropping critical passes when he was playing.
Chubb hobbled twice.
Hunt missing most of the season.
Higgins smoking bongs in the locker room on most Sundays.
DPJ only starting nine games with various injuries.
And a coach who's "seeing ghosts" every time he looks at the play sheets.

???

Yeah, that's what happened, the Browns really started sucking when the prima donna left.