DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Quarterback Options

I would still seriously question that.
Wentz doesn't even know the system and has a long history of being a poor decision maker. Keenum is definitely a better option and doubly-so in that you'd probably have to pay Wentz what we're already paying Keenum, so why move on from Keenum in that case? Keenum is never going to "wow" anyone with moments where he catches fire, but he'll be trudgingly consistent and not make too many bad decisions. His arm is weaker, but the rest of his game is stronger.

I think people are forgetting how awful Keenum is when asked to play long stretches.

well, that's pretty much any backup QB.... and, it also kinda defines Wentz's career.

I don’t think Wentz is good. He would also be among the best backups in the league. My guess is some team signs him as a starter and then drafts a QB (someone like the Broncos).

Wentz also nearly won the MVP in 2017 and has been a middling starter since then. He’s miles better than Keenum.

I honestly can't make much sense out of this.

Backups don't play until they are starters. A few spot starts for injuries doesn't really warrant that salary.

Sounds like you want the upside called "plan b"... for when Baker "stinks it up".

As far as that goes I have two questions that I would have for any 28M QB:

Can he take my team to the Super Bowl?
Is he better than the starter I have now?

Seems like if either answer was yes, he wouldn't be the backup... you would just part ways with Baker.

So, knowing that you're no dummy, I'm really hoping your disclaimer is "if he's cut", although you didn't state that in any of these posts. If you want to trade for Wentz and pick up that salary, you're off your rocker. If you want to scoop him up for 13M after a cut, there's at least a little validity to the argument.

Still, thinking Baker just needs to be looking over his shoulder as motivation to be a real NFL QB is a little silly.

Yes, if cut. I would never give up picks or take on that salary.

I don’t think Baker needs someone to motivate him. I think we need a viable option in case he stinks.

At this point I see Baker as 2019 Marcus Mariota. Go into the season with him as the starter but be ready to pull the plug. We just need to find our Tannehill.

I think you replace Baker with someone better if you don't think he's the guy - or you can do it at a cost you can afford. Keep baker if you think he's going to be the guy from 2 seasons ago that took you to the playoffs.

Keeping him but saying you don't fully believe in him to be that guy again and signing the best guy you can to replace him if he starts to stink seems to be an in between measure that ultimately would likely hurt the team more than help it.

If you are worried about your QB’s ability to deal with competition because of his play then you don’t have the right QB.

Please remember us... My impression is that it resembles very much what we have with Baker.

That isn't what I said. Nor what I meant. Nor what I am concerned about. But anyway...

Baker's been a walk on throughout his life - including essentially when he took over from an injured Tyrod when not given any 1st team reps ... And you translate that to me being worried he will crumble under competition? No.

I think the "Case" could be made either way. You have the Case who led the Vikings to 13-3 in 2017 when starting 14 games and playing in 15 games. Then you have the 2018 Case that led Denver to a 6-10 record when starting all 16 games. As it pertains to the Vikings we was the back up who was called on to play due to a knee injury by Same Bradford. In Denver he was the named start.

I think we both understand that we may have different viewpoints of exactly how much Baker's injuries led to all of the things we saw on the field this year. I'm sure it was the cause of some of them but unsure about others. I'm not saying everything we saw wasn't due to the injuries, I'm just not convinced all of them were.

But what I do know is that I saw Baker help lead us to an 11-5 season when healthy in his first year of Stefanski's scheme. He's seen more coaching staff changes than anyone should expect for a young QB. So there's no doubt in my mind that I want to see him be our starter for 2022. The most I would advocate for would be a trade down in the draft to help build future ammunition in the event he not produce well in 2022.

But if Baker remains healthy I see no reason he shouldn't play as well if not better than he did in 2020. I see trying to bring in competition as nothing more than a distraction to take away the focus from the team with all of the media attention. I say go all in on Baker for 2022 and let's see what happens.

Why does Cleveland have to be in the minority? How many teams in the NFL actually right now have a QB competition on the 2022 horizon? PIT and TBB due to future HOF retirements? WAS, NOS, CAR maybe the NYG are the only true competition points in the NFC as of today. DAL, PHI, CHI, GBP, MIN, DET, ATL, LAR, SEA, ARI and SFO - all have their 2022 starters set as it is now. What about the AFC? I'm pretty certain that LAC, KCC, LVR, TEN, JAX, CIN, BAL, NEP, NYJ, MIA and BUF are pretty well locked into who their starter is for 2022.

That leaves 10 teams that have some type of QB issue. Two, TBB and PIT are due to retirements. A third, the NOS are 1 year removed from a retirement. A fourth, HOU has their starter - it's just he won't play in HOU so one of the slots will be filled by him somewhere. 5-9, DEN, IND, WAS, CAR and to a lesser extent NYG all appear to have QB issues that need addressed. The 10th has a QB that would easily be the starter on any of the previous 9 teams listed yet the fans want to create a QB controversy in case their starter isn't up to their standards coming off an injury plagued season after leading the Browns to the playoffs in 2020.

For a team that didn't have a WR PFF rated high enough to even be a #2 on any team in the league with Landry rated 73rd, focusing on getting a better QB just in case has become a priority. For a team whose 2nd line offensive lineman were exposed as very weak in 2021 has fans feeling a greater need is to have a QB competition rather than using that capital to upgrade the line. The Browns TE usage was dismal and the Browns need to upgrade LB and DT not to mention the kicking game too. Expectations in 2021 were not met but focusing on Mayfield as the problem without giving the other areas equal weight in their contribution to the poor season will lead to just that - another poor season.

I think you may be underestimating Russell Wilsons ability to suck in future games.

I agree.

I am not looking to replace baker, but as you know the QB position is always the #1 focus. We no doubt need to beef up the receiver group, and the Oline unit as a whole. The O-line starters are pretty solid, but last year we rarely had all 5 playing at the same time. The receivers at best would be on the low end of average, and I am being nice.

However, the QB position did have problems that might not be directly related to deficiencies at the other position groups. That is why I think we need to build some draft picks for next year in the event we still have problems that can be more directly attributed to the QB. We need to be in a position where we can trade up as necessary to select a top QB. I wold love to see us trade out of round 1 to pick up a 1st next year and whatever else would be attached for this year.

If the Browns don't use this year's #1 pick to improve a variety of holes, then IMO they are in tank mode for '22 and should cut bait with Baker asap. I also believe that NOT improving the WR group before the trade deadline was their admission that '21 was a lost year anyway...which it was by halftime of game #2.

Or there were no good options available for the right price at the trade deadline. There were basically no trades at the deadline.

No question. I highlighted the relevant part below.


When you are "All In "...ala the Rams...the right price can be quite scalable.

No team has ever been built like the Rams and they are lucky they won a Super Bowl because that roster is going to be a disaster in a couple years.

That's one side of the coin and I understand that point. But what that does is limit you to a one season shot. If you miss winning the SB in that one season, you start all over from nothing again and have to build it all over.

I think where we differ is I wouldn't call building a strong nucleus to compete for multiple years as "building a dynasty". I think it more as building a core of players within reasonable cap limitations that can give you several shots at the SB. As you have mentioned, we have maybe three or four more shots at it with our core talent. I would rather have those three or four shots at winning a SB than trading that in for a one time shot.

Wow, some of you seem to forget the good old days when we didn't have a QB and we went through a million of them. So by all means, cut Baker, and let's get back to those wonderful 1-15 seasons. Personally, I'd keep Baker and perhaps draft a prospect in the 4th or 5th round as a project. If Baker is healthy this season and he doesn't look good THEN start thinking about a replacement. But judging him on an injury-plagued season seems foolish. He is CLEARLY the best quarterback the Browns have had since the return. Dumping him prematurely would be a typical Browns move...

That's how I feel as well, up until Baker got hurt people were saying how we had found our QB and were praising him then he gets hurt and has a very down year and now all of the sudden he's a bum.

The Browns should always be all in! When is there a time to not be all in?

If people don't like and support Baker Mayfield I think they should not be Browns fans.

If Aaron Rodgers had a gripe that the team never put acceptable talent around him to help him win at the start of 2021 then Baker Mayfield has that same argument.

If People want to "look back" in history and claim OBJ never wanted to be on the Browns from day one of his 2.5 years, and expressed wanting to be traded from the beginning, then Baker Mayfield has a legitimate gripe to the team about what kind of WR's have been placed around him from the start of his career.

If the Browns don't want to add anyone except 6th round DPJ, and track star Anthony Schwartz since Mayfield arrived, and cut players like Breshad Perriman and that young guy who was suspended his final year at the college in Florida. (edit: Antonio Callaway)
and
their big claim to putting weapons around Baker was OBJ, but if OBJ expressed real want to not be there from the beginning, then the Browns aren't, (or were't) giving Baker the weapons to succeed.

Add in a group of offensive coaches, that hate to pass the ball to Wide Receivers, and the Browns haven't been "all in".
Go Browns!
Go Baker Mayfield!
Keep the team together!

j/c

My view

This post might be all over the place, so a warning to you all, lol.



Peen and I have very similar views regarding this year/next. I've said it a couple times, so I'll give the shorten version and add from there.

Let Baker play his last year out and see what we got, but at the same time be prepared for next year. My view on the Front Office is their vision is the Steelers. A team that will be consistently good for a long time, not a one or two year shot at playoffs/SB then rebuild.

I could be full of bs with this statement , but seeing things like 'we'll be 1-15 again or a year removed from taking us to the playoffs' doesn't make me think it will happen with this group. Think of all the previous Front Offices and head coaches (ok, that might trigger some PTSD..so maybe don't do that, haha), this leadership doesn't feel anything like them. We haven't seen butting heads, we haven't seen FO or coach drama. Everything they've done to this point has been logical or I can see a reasoning behind it when it's even failed. They aren't going to be perfect, but when something (ie. free agent pickup, draft pick, etc) hasn't worked out...I could look at the overall picture and see what and why they went that route. I don't see this group making desperation or tunnel vision/emotional decisions.

They could have easily cracked and threw money at Baker, instead they know they can play it out one more year, see if he's worth the investment by re-signing or franchising him. Keep in mind AB and his staff is well-versed in this years prospects and also for the next 1-2 years. This isn't any different than a college team scouting and offering JRs and even targeting Sophomore high school players. If you or I can see it, then they are aware of it.

Sorry, I'll reel it back in now.

So looking at our next two drafts this year at this point in time:
We have

1 - 1st rounder
1 - 2nd rounder
2 - 3rd rounders (our pick and comp pick)
2 - 4th rounders (our pick and Lions pick)
1 - 5th rounder
1 - 6th rounder
1 - 7th rounder (via Lions)

2023

we have all our picks and an extra 3rd round comp pick

---------

Thats some good ammo in general. We have some options moving up and down. I have said before, I would love to trade down preferably a few spots and pick up a second 1st rounder for 2023. I do not want to move up in the first round and give up more picks. I don't see the value of that this year. Think about it, strong QB classes means two things...either you are getting a possible strong QB prospect at the top of the draft OR it means other top prospects at other positions are falling. This years group of QBs are not viewed as the top 1,2,3 picks in the draft this year. Could it happen? Sure, but none are sure fire like Trevor, Trey, Fields or Wilson. Those drafts are one of the reasons Newsome and JOK fall a little farther in the draft.

I am hoping we can move down with just our pick, but if I had to, I would offer our 3rd rounder or our 4th rounder for a next years first. The reasoning....it's a stronger QB class.

Our options with this scenario:
1. Baker balls out - awesome....resign him, we now have two 1st rounders next year with a strong QB class. Positional players should fall (hopefully the rest of the class is strong in other areas). Heck, we might even get lucky and have a very high pick and fall back some b/c of a desperate QB needy team. Baker will take up a good chuck of our salary cap. We can use our two first round picks on other positions on 5 year rookie deals. If we hit on them, then we have two solid to all pro players at positions of need at a cheap price. This helps future salary cap issue and possible attrition of releasing players b/c of the cap.

2. Baker doesn't ball out - ok, then we have two first rounders and an extra 3rd rounder if we need to move up. This "possibly" protects us from adding our 2024 first rounder to the deal.


If we get some offensive fire power (WR/TE) this year through FA and the draft this will set up next year. What I mean by this, it will benefit Baker this year. But for those possible WR/TE rookies, they will also have a year of experience under their belt either for the future under Baker or that Bridge/rookie QB. We have a lot of talent on this team every where else, just need some better weapons and a QB that plays at the bare minimum of average to all pro. Just like us all though I want that long term great QB, not a QB that we are hopeful will play up to standard.

Side note: I would still be interested in possibly drafting a mid-round QB pick this year if there is someone they think has value.

Agreed Bone.

I understand your thought process and it is sound reasoning.

There are so many variables involved: free agency, the draft, player draft interviews, things behind the scenes that we don't see, etc. There really isn't one way to skin this cat. There are many ways to win.

Your comment about Russell Wilson, it's always a possibility, and your key words are "from a fair deal". Those are part of the variables that could arise with a trade or even in the draft. We aren't there to hear those wheeling and dealing conversations. And if that happened, I wouldn't be upset at all.

I love the couple words you used and i am stealing them for my next sentence. The more assets you have (or acquire) the more flexible and more opportunities will/can present themselves.

This is why I am really focused on preparing for next year. Am I right? Hell if I know, I'm just a fan like the rest of us.

My view is just being the team where our phone is ringing off the hook b/c of desperate teams see our assets and do something dumb. All the while we are fielding a playoff/super bowl caliber team. We have a hell of a core in place right now. This isn't a team from our past years where we have a Joe Thomas and that's basically it. We have a premier RB, a great line, and many excellent pieces on defense. We have a few areas we need to focus (sprinkled in with some depth)

I just view it as stand pat with Baker and upgrade next year with more assets.

But I can understand the Niners route, we aren't that much different than them to a point. Really, we are kind of in the same position as them team wise. A team good enough make some noise in the playoffs. They had Jimmy G, we have Baker. Baker plays for a year then make a move as needed the following year. Just like the Niners, did with Jimmy playing this year and now (this coming year) it's Trey's team.


Alright I need to take a break. I've been posting too much today. I'm at home on leave this week, i'am looking out my lanai right now at the ocean. I need to get to the beach, haha.

Good post Bone

I understand the feeling, myself being an old guy. That said, I would rather have a team who might have multiple shots at a Superbowl win over a one and done even if I might be at or nearing the one and done point in my life.

Bengals went 4-12 in 2020. Then went to the SB the following year.

Browns with Baker at QB have beaten the Bengals 4-0 in that time. Baker might be a hot button topic for us fans - he might not be 'THE' reason we won all those games - but we won with/because/despite him both healthy and injured.

Absolutely zero reason not to expect a deep run into the playoffs next year. And if the Bengals become the #1 contender in the AFC Nth it will be interesting to see if we have an answer to Jamar Chase ... AJ Green was a special WR, but we had his number in Joe Haden who always managed to shut the guy down when we played.... Sure hope one of our 3 stud CB's has JC's number!

If our roster is so great, then we have nothing to worry about.

I think the rooster is great. Areas need attention, but that's every team in then NFL.

RB - Excellent.
CB - Excellent.
S - Good to Very Good
OL - Minimum Good. Potentially Excellent with recovery from injury for Wills and Conklin. Teams typically don't have studs at every position on the OL, we don't need that either.
DE - with MG as one book end you are going to be good. resigning Clowney makes the unit Excellent.
DT - Needs attention.
WR - Needs attention.
LB - Good enough is the floor. Potential to be very good.

QB - mixed opinions, but if we don't make a change based on 2021 play, hopefully the floor is "good enough".

It doesn't matter how good it is, you're not gonna get any eggs from it.