DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Russia looks ready to invade Ukraine

Of course it's a bad thing. I guess people have to choose whether they think letting Russia divide and take over an established sovereign nation is less or more important than gas prices. I mean the last time we saw someone do this was Hitler. In that case it came down to Americans being rationed in everything from sugar, to gas, to dairy products to shoes. I'm not so sure that standing by and watching it happen now won't mean far worse consequences later. I mean if one judges from history.

My grandma used to talk about how she would save her bacon grease and then donate it to help make bombs during WW2.

Can you imagine if we imposed rations nowadays…?

We can't even get people to wear a mask during a pandemic to make a sacrifice to help protect our own citizens without throwing a tantrum much less make sacrifices to help prevent the spread of a communist regime taking nations over by force. If they throw a tantrum helping protect the life of their own people, just imagine how bad it would be to get them to agree to make sacrifices for people in a foreign country.

If Obama and Biden would have taken care of the problem in 2014, it wouldn't be a problem for Biden and Harris today.

And how would you suggest they should have "taken care of the problem"? You see, we have treaties with 29 other NATO members. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. So please inform us how you think they should have been dealt with. I guess taking the word of Putin over our intelligence community in a public press conference and then this latest support of Putin for his actions helped "take care of it".

As far as the "doesn't objectively sounds like sarcasm", to each his own I guess.

To me it sounded like classic Donald Trump, always trying to assert that he is a better leader. Ego always in the way of a well-expressed response. In this case he used sarcasm to express (IMO) how little respect Putin has for Joe, and how weak Joe is (as far as "posture") as a leader. The parts where "tone" tipped away from sarcasm were with the use of "genius" and "savvy"... and that's what has the whole world in it's "let's get back to TRUMP" frenzy.

The funny thing to me? Most intelligent people, if they could remove their bias for a moment, would look at Putin's "move" and his vow to “maintain peace” in two breakaway regions in Ukraine, as, well, savvy lol. It's also a way to push other world leader's buttons and see how they respond without actually jumping in the fire.

Should Trump condemn the actions? Probably. But he'd have to throw away his man-crush and risk his status of "the man who could talk to Vlad". He gets great joy out of that... almost as much as his escapade with Dennis Rodman and Kim Jong Un. They're almost like Scooby Doo episodes where he acts as if world peace were an option but it was all foiled by the media aka "those meddling kids". Trump's go-to m.o. is "I did _____, it was a very smart thing, I'm a strong leader, and it would have worked if those idiots on the left would have listened". It's as predictable as the day is long.

As to your example, short of reaching out to Putin, he'd get way more mileage out of supporting Joe's leadership. Alas, Trump is way too egotistical to "stoop to that level". If the shoe were on the other foot, I suspect Joe would be just as smug... but probably at least have the common sense to say nothing at all.

As for Biden and the way he's handled things. I would give him a solid "A" so far, but we've only just begun this charade. And that "A" becomes window-dressing (as far as his support goes) when an American public, fed up on skyrocketing inflation and pain at the pump, is told to bend over for just a little longer. I almost feel like the WH feels that, by warning us of it in advance, Joe can just wash his hands of the matter. Besides, if he's asked, he'll turn back into crotchety-old-man, call the reporter a name and refuse to answer the question. "I've already told you there would be pain". Even reasonable questions about oil reserves, production, taxes, etc... will likely be met with the proverbial middle finger.

His is a much harder sell, to us, than Putin selling "sanctions" to his. He's been one of the most supported politicians in the history of mankind, and although his numbers have been on slow decline, this is actually the type of action that may very well send them soaring again. At the end of the day, for Vlad and Joe, one has a much easier path regardless of how reckless his intentions and decisions.

So, (and I know I'm all over the board, I apologize) can an abused, pandemic weary, cash-shelling-out, American public be sold on "doing the right thing"? Probably not. One reason is we've seen this movie over and over before and somehow the preview never matches the finished product when we're reading the credits.

In the meantime, Trump will be Trump, politicians will be politicians and our circus of a media will each act like it's the other side with the clown nose on it's face. "Doing the right thing" will be the battle cry and it will divide and conquer on every social media and news platform.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

I will say that I strongly agreed with Trump pushing the other NATO nations to pay up. The left tried to portray it as him undermining the alliance. And he certainly made statements regarding NATO I didn't agree with. The left also pointed out that agreements were already in place where those nations were "going to pay up". And while that's true, I didn't see them lining up to fulfill those agreements. Putting some heat on them to step up forced their hand.

Good post!

Couple of things about my post: Some took at as me stumping for and/or supporting trump. Not true. There's enough to gripe about about him.

I do not believe trump endorses Russia invading Ukraine.

Facebook - a very hard line dem/lib is blaming trumps "support" for Russia on "well, most GOP'ers have investments in Ukraine...." ???

So, why would anyone support an invasion????

This lady, a retiree on the PERS (public employee retirement system) ............let's just say I explained to her that her PERS probably has just as much invested in energy as any retirement/pension system.




Sometimes, folks, it's not politics. It's reality. No one wants Russia to invade - other than maybe Putin. This is where we are right now. What to do about it is up in the air. Do nothing but sanction Russia? We, the citizens, suffer with higher costs, which is happening anyway. Get involved? We, the citizens, suffer with higher costs, as well as our armed forces suffering much worse.

I don't agree that it sounds like sarcasm, not even given your explanation that sort of rings true. What I would say is that the bit I have quoted here and the enablement of Trump because you are essentially saying 'this is Trump being Trump' is just flat wrong at every level. He's still President Trump - his words carry weight and significance and will have repercussions. Giving him a free pass because 'Trump is gonna be Trump waddya gonna do' is just not acceptable.

I agree - I have been impressed with the Way Biden has handled things to date. We'll see what happens. I'd give the GOP leadership a resounding 'F' for seemingly undermining America in a way that indirectly supports our adversary .

are there any pros in conservative thinking?

Arch, can you do me a favor, and from your own perspective, explain to me what you think the benefits would be to defending ukraines sovereignty? or to word it more conservatively, sanctioning and/or getting involved in a military conflict with Russia?

just lately a lot of conservatives have been very loud with telling people what we can't do (not just war but literally everything else), and so im wondering what we are capable of doing as a country from your perspective.

I didn't say anything about not invading, I was simply stating that rising gas prices is more than what it costs each of us to put fuel in our vehicles.

The Russian invasion and resulting sanctions will affect the commodities markets and gas prices will rise, so it is in all of our best interest that this gets worked out quickly.
I didn't say anything about letting Russia invade. I was simply stating that rising gas prices is more than what it costs each of us to put fuel in our vehicles.

The Russian invasion and resulting sanctions will affect the commodities markets and gas prices will rise, which will affect everything we buy, so it is in all of our best interest that this gets worked out quickly.

I think I answered that in the part you quoted.

Russia is also now saying they will.......forgive me as I won't have the exact quotes..........hit the u.s. in areas that will hurt. (not saying with bombs, ok?)

Ukraine is now dealing with cyber attacks, according to cnn.

The time has passed for what we COULD do. Biden screwed it up.

He declared war on our Oil.
He declared war on our Pipelines.
He charged high fees on Fracking and new drilling permits.
He made it so oil companies can not get loans for drilling.

Our Oil companies decided to stop looking for more oil and rely on what they already produce.
No sense investing profits into new wells when your government is looking to put you out of business.

So with rising gas prices and inflation on the rise, he goes begging OPEC and Russia for oil. Laughable to all but Putin who used
the high oil prices and American weakness on the world stage to fund his move on Ukraine.
The money boys now refer to Russia as the Financial Kingdom as Putin has filled his coffers with Gold and made deals with China for his Nat Gas/oil.

He took advantage of our weakness, has prepared for whatever the rest of the world does in retaliation, and is now in position to do whatever he wants.

Trying to stop the water after the dam has broken is futile.

Biden and Obama massively messed up when Russia invaded and annexed Crimea in 2014 it is well documented and noted by the media. Biden went to Ukraine like 5-6 times and had meetings with leaders like every fricking week. Biden/Obama attempted to use tough talk and got steamrolled. Basically, the world viewed Obama and Biden as weak and had credibility issues. Because of that, I think it caused a lot of problems with Russia in Crimea. in the end, we condemned our NATO ally's actions and slapping some sanctions on Russia. We also conceded Russia had control of Crimea. So, hopefully... Biden learned from his mistakes when he was the point person the last time around and doesn't use tough talk to only be put over Putin's knee and get spanked again.


So, my suggestion is if Biden is going to be weak again... be weak from the start and let Russia take Ukraine without the tough talk.

That was a good post. I don’t think I’d buy that he was being sarcastic if this were all in a vacuum, but I might lend the theory more credibility had there not been so many other red flags in his overarching relationship with Putin.

I don’t think anyone - intelligent people at least - would disagree that Putin is very savvy. He’s extremely calculated. He does not respect appeasement and only respects power. He’s a bully, really, and also understands the value in useful idiots as well.

What he seemingly always avoids is a good smack in the mouth when he oversteps his boundaries. Obama really struggled on that front up until I would say he finally wised up (around 2014 maybe???). We’ve already talked enough about Trump’s dealings with Putin. The next crux will be how Biden responds to Putin’s game of chicken if/when he extends beyond the separatist territories. He has to find the pressure points and he needs to pinch them hard.

I did not mean to infer you were stumping for Trump. Just wanted to make that clear.

I was just two posts prior very critical of Obama’s dealings with Russia prior to 2014, but I do not remember those events the same way you do.

They kicked them out of the G8, and slapped sanctions on Russia, which caused pretty significant capital flight. It was doubled down with the expansion of American oil output, which brought prices down, another blow.

If anything, I think that was the time that Obama finally woke up in responding to Russia. His tone toward Putin was much more noticeably grim and shrewd.

What other things should he have done? How did they get steamrolled?

I see Putin's statements and actions as making him look very phony and unconvincing. His stated intention is to keep Ukraine out of NATO so he doesn't have a NATO country on Russia's doorstep. By claiming to occupy Ukrainian regions in the name of Peace he would add more incentive for Ukraine to want to be in NATO. If he takes Ukraine entirely he now has Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Hungary all NATO nations that would be on his doorstep. Reality is he is taking a page out of a book we have already seen, banking on people to be complacent as he gobbles up countries.

Here is the timeline.. a little different than you remember. **Russia had already taken and absorbed Crimea before Obama did anything besides imposing a travel ban and freezing some assets.**

17 December: Vladimir Putin throws President Yanukovych an economic lifeline, agreeing to buy $15bn of Ukrainian debt and reduce the price of Russian gas supplies by about a third.
20 February: Kiev sees its worst day of violence for almost 70 years. At least 88 people are killed in 48 hours. Video shows uniformed snipers firing at protesters holding makeshift shields.
Russia sent in soldiers on February 27, 2014.
27-28 February: Pro-Russian gunmen seize key buildings in the Crimean capital, Simferopol. Unidentified gunmen in combat uniforms appear outside Crimea's main airports.
1 March: Russia's parliament approves President Vladimir Putin's request to use force in Ukraine to protect Russian interests.
March 3 US concedes Russia has control of Crimea Penninsula
17 March: The EU and US impose travel bans and asset freezes on several officials from Russia and Ukraine over the Crimea referendum.
18 March: President Putin signs a bill to absorb Crimea into the Russian Federation.



USA First real action (after Russia already had invaded, taken Crimea, and absorbed them) and for all intents and purposes was already over.
March 24 U.S., other powers kick Russia out of G8
28 March: US President Barack Obama urges Moscow to "move back its troops" and lower tensions.
17 April: Russia, Ukraine, the US and the EU say they have agreed at talks in Geneva on steps to "de-escalate" the crisis in eastern Ukraine. Three people are killed when Ukrainian security forces fend off a raid on a base in Mariupol - the first violent deaths in the east.
14 June: Pro-Russia separatists shoot down a military plane in the east, killing 49 people.
17 July: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam is shot down near the village of Grabove in rebel-held territory, with the loss of 298 lives.
24 September: Nato reports a "significant" withdrawal of Russian troops from eastern Ukraine.
2 October: President Putin orders thousands of troops stationed near the Ukrainian border to return to their bases.
31 October: Russia agrees to resume gas supplies to Ukraine over the winter in a deal brokered by the EU.
On 19 December 2014, US President Obama imposed sanctions on Russian-occupied Crimea by executive order prohibiting exports of US goods and services to the region.
On 16 February 2015, the EU increased its sanction list to cover 151 individuals and 37 entities.

J/

I see the same 5 people always defending the President.

No doubt they aren't part of the nearly 75% who feel the President is doing a poor job with the economy.

It's Trump, it's Covid, it's Ukraine. What's it going to be next month?

Carry on.

Nope. Thats exactly how I remembered it. Russian acknowledges troop movement into Crimea on 27 February and then shortly after acknowledge that they control it, not that it’s a part of them. They have a naval base there so it’s relatively easy for them to control that Peninsula.

A week after they actually annex it and claim it no longer is a part of Ukraine, the sanctions hit.

Again, I ask, what should they have done differently? Military action?

that's literally nothing like you remember it.

Russia was kicked them out of the G8 on March 8th.
*There were no sanctions, significant capital fight and no doubling down of American oil output which brought prices down. Gas prices had been over 3.00 since 2011 and were 3.292 in feb 3.479 in march 3.596 in apil 3.59 in may 3.684 in june 3.690 in 2014

Obama tried to talk tough - it fell flat and Putin shoved up Obama's Biden


Obama waited 8-9 months until things had settled back down, Russia was basically out of Ukriane (24 September), Russia got to turn the gas pumps back with Ukrian on (October 31), all Russian Troops had been home away from the border for 2 months (October 2) before he started imposing any real sanctions On 19 December 2014.

that's like 30 weeks after Russia Annexed Crimea not 1 week and everything was fully de-escalated for months.

Funny - I see the same bunch of Trump enablers always avoiding tough questions about Trump - avoiding issues where Biden has done a commendable job - and keep changing those topics to talk about areas Biden has not performed well in. As for the economy - he could have done better. But it was going to be a chit sandwich no matter what. Thinking otherwise ignores reality, but go talk about it on a thread about Biden's economy.

That's odd, because, if you've followed along, Trump has been blamed for everything since before he even took office.

He's not in office now, nor will he be. Why is it the left is so bent on trump, they ignore biden?

I misread that prior point to include sanctions, which actually was the case. I think those St Ed’s style cliff notes you posted were off my friend.

You can read about the March/April actions here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

Still waiting on your alternative solution.

I don't think anyone is ignoring Biden. As for talking about Trump in a Ukraine Russia thread the day after he uttered those moronic words??? Hmmmm. I wonder

[/color]

Originally Posted by dawglover05

I misread that prior point to include sanctions, which actually was the case. I think those St Ed’s style cliff notes you posted were off my friend.

You can read about the March/April actions here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

Still waiting on your alternative solution.

that's still literally nothing like you remember it.

did you actually read the sanctions? there were a joke and proved my point further.

Here is a list:


In March (these don't really count as sanctions), they banned American citizens from traveling to Ukraine/Crimea area. - duh. we don't want our citizens being held hostage and becoming a liablity
They froze a couple of US assets in the Crimean region. - duh they don't want our fund stolen. this took is laughable and not even a sanction

in July, they blocked 2 banks and 2 energy firms that were mediocre sized OMG! why didn't Russia beg for mercy and lift our sanctions?!

in September a bank, an arms make, deepwater exploration company, a couple of oil companies while 2 still had limited access to the US debts markets - We are really showing Putin who's the boss now.

in dec finally, they imposed sanctions prohibiting the export of goods or services to the region 6 months after it was over. -we really showed them once they left the entire region and all of their troops were safe back at their bases for months


those st ed's cliff notes were copied from the BBC and condensed for simplicity https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26248275
- Ed's guys always copy people's notes (word for word) without giving them credit until it is required.

So If I understand properly, Russia has voted and Putin has the approval to invade Ukraine when he wants.

As a bonus, Russia has been playing war games with Iran and China for a few months.

The icing on the cake...

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/22/taliban-create-grand-army-afghanistan-old-regime-troops
22 Feb 2022
The Taliban is creating a “grand army” for Afghanistan that will include officers and troops who served the old regime, says the official tasked with overseeing the military’s transformation. (whom we trained)

The Taliban has taken control of more than 300,000 light arms, 26,000 heavy weapons, and about 61,000 military vehicles during their lightning takeover of the country and are now planning to build a "grand" army

- "also told a news conference on Monday that they had repaired half the 81 helicopters and planes supposedly rendered unserviceable by the US military"


Pakistan and India is now forced to clean up our mess and givie aid to Afghanistan.

The Beta Male MAGAs would lose their minds. MOST thin skinned Americans would.

MSNBC reporting explosions heard in KYIV. He's going to take Ukraine in its entirety.

Bro, I’m not going to keep banging my head against a wall. I do like your response on the Ed’s notes. That was good.

I could see a point about needing to accelerate to the worst of the sanctions more quickly. I don’t know what kind of prep work needed to happen in order to prepare and collaborate with others for the imposition of those sanctions.

Still want to know what you think they should have done. Get to the end goal immediately? Military?

It’s live on CNN as well.

Just got home and saw on CNN. Don't know what the West should do.
Dow futures down 700

Explosion sounds heard, nobody has eyes on the source. No reports of any kind saying an attack is underway.

UN has been in an emergency meeting for about two hours, they knew. WWII era Security Council presided over by Russia will fail to act. If Putin takes the whole of Ukraine, I don't see how this won't kick off WW3.

Amazing footage from the UN security council of Ukraine dressing down Russia. He said that Putin declared war on them at 10PM EST and is now bombing their cities. Missile strikes far beyond eastern Ukraine.

I’ve heard missile strikes as well. Putin is quite the sphincter.

Confirmed he struck KYIV with missiles.

I don't know what they should have done. but, I do hate the way they backloaded sanctions to make themselves look good.