So to possibly sum up - this goes back to 2008 and the proposal for Ukraine to join Nato? And this is an issue for US Politics and we've failed to address it for decades.
So you agree blaming Biden is silly.
** Yes - I need and will go and watch this as it is without doubt much more detailed and thorough than this. But still.... Blaming Biden because he is part of a systematic US political issue over decades seems foolish.
Yes, exactly. I am not blaming Biden specifically. Not saying he is blameless either. He and people like him have been a huge part of the problem.
From the standpoint of the Ukrainian and Russian People, it seems like peace could be achieved pretty easily. Western Ukrainians mostly want to be part of the EU because it would be great for them economically. They are not even asking to be part of NATO, that is being pushed onto them. The Eastern Ukrainians are mostly ethnic Russians. They don't want to be part of the EU and since their power and influence was unfairly stripped away from them in the coup, it is understandable that they would want to have their own independent country.
So, if we want peace, then we should drop the talk about NATO, split the separatist region into their own country, giving Russia the buffer that it needs, and leave the door open to Ukraine eventually being part of the EU. It is very easy for everyone to get what they want... except this solution leaves out the powerful and corrupt on both sides that wish to increase their control and wealth. That's really the heart of the problem, corrupt world leaders and oligarchs want to control the resources of Ukraine and they don't care how many people get killed in the process. They just blame those deaths on the other guy.
Unfortunately, the world leaders that we have in place right now are not capable of doing the right things. Things are going to escalate. Hopefully not to the point that we see a Nuclear strike, but there is no guarantee of that. Putin will use a Nuclear weapons if he is pushed too far.
I keep hearing that Putin is sick and acting unhinged with his ranting. I also heard he has isolated himself for a long time because he's scared of covid. If he is scared of covid it might not take much to take him out.
Shut up. I'm talking all American men. Most are soft. NOT ALL. But most are.
You give me some Mezcal on a hot, sunny day and I'm whoppin' a man's ass.
Instant asshat, just add Mescal? lol. You know what I mean and so do most other men in here. America as a whole is soft. American men are mostly soft. It's what we've become.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
I’ve been thinking about this. I really hope I don’t jinx the situation, but I think Putin overplayed his hand.
I started thinking about what Russia’s end goal is, which is speculative, I admit. But let’s assume they topple the government, remove or even kill Zelensky, and install a pro-Russian government. They can’t just leave. They will have to stay. That requires occupation.
I don’t think Russia is prepared for an occupation.
We struggled with occupation, and we toppled two governments that were autocratic and oppressive. Russia is invading a country that had a grass roots movement to elect a democratic government.
It was something the people believed in and installed. We see that with the continuing resolve, from the president, the ex-president, the troops, and the citizens.
Putin is essentially invading and telling them that they can’t have what they want. They have to have what he wants…and they’ve already had what they want in place for 8-ish years.
He’s a very cunning leader, but like Swish mentioned, he never put himself in a risky position like this one. He always waited for others to screw up, without actually taking his own initiative. Now he’s officially crossed the rubicon of being an open aggressor vs an opportunist.
He’s been asking the military and citizens of Ukraine to turn on their government, an out of touch request that seems to have fallen on deaf ears. He’s been met with a lot of defiance. I don’t think it can work out well for him.
Heaven forbid he actually thinks he can extend beyond Ukraine and engages in a fight with a NATO partner. Then he’s tasked with both occupying Ukraine while simultaneously engaging in active combat with another country.
Maybe some of those who have been part of our occupying forces could shed more light as to the validity of my speculation.
I’m sure some of my speculation is based on hope of his failure. We’ll see.
JMHO
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Do elaborate. I'm not picking on or lashing out at you, just curious as to what you have to say. I honestly feel that most men in this country are soft as babies bottom.
I disagree that "most" are soft. Too many "if's" here, but IF the U.S. was invaded (and that's a HUGE if), it would take months for the invaders to mass anywhere near here. IF that happened, and we were faced with death, or our wives/daughter's being raped.............Yeah, no, I don't think American men would be weak or meek. MOST, anyway.
Agree to disagree. Less than half a percent currently serve in the military, only about seven percent of all Americans have served. Add in cops, hunters, and unofficial militias, and you reach maybe thirty percent? And just because you can pull the trigger on a squirrel or deer, doesn't mean you can kill a man. Of course when You are talking about a country of 325 million people, these percentages represent large numbers. But they are small percentages. I could see 1-3 men out of 10 fighting at most.
And I have real world experience with cowardice. My ship was on fire in the IO, while Filipinos on the main fire party hid in their berthing. I had been onboard less than two weeks, fresh out of indoctrination, and got sent in to fight the fire. When the ish hits the fan, otherwise good men, can easily fall apart. Like you, I would like to believe differently, but I just can't until I see it. Hopefully neither of us ever have to see it.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 02/25/2211:02 PM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
325 million Americans. Cut that in half for the man/woman discrepancy. 160 million men. Cut that in half due to youth and old age. 80 million is where we're at then.
If only 10% would fight, that gives us another 8 million.
Trained? No. Having tanks, and artillery, and planes? No. A ground war in the U.S., though, is not possible for an invading army. Think Afghanistan.
Forgot to hit reply or replied to the wrong guy is all.
I said several pages ago, or in the last thread, that there would never be an invasion of the US for that very reason. Based on America having too many personal guns, and estimating that at least 1-3 million men and women willing to fight would step up or try to be involved in some sort of resistance. Nukes would be a better option if you hit the US. And anybody attempting an invasion/ boots on the ground attack on US soil would take the beating of their lives.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Lol. She's asked about how we can support Ukraine. It took all of 30 seconds to bring up Trump and spent the remaining 6 minutes talking about him. American politics at it's finest.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
You have an interesting take- one that I've considered, as well.
Let's add a couple more items to the list of things Putin may have to deal with
1. Some very high-ranking Generals have expressed a certain amount of "wtf" regards their marching orders. On top of that, it's been reported that actual Russian troops were shocked to be given kill orders, as if they weren't expecting it. Not good, if your chain of command is already questioning you at every level.
2. The invasion of Crimea was swift, efficient and relatively bloodless. Additionally, the Russian people believed the peninsula to be Russian by tradition, with family in the region. It was easy for them to be on-board for that annexation. Ukraine is a different story. The Russian citizens are less invested in Ukraine, even though they do still have ties. Add in this: the Ukrainian people are fighting back. Hard. And it's already turning out to be more difficult than I think Putin imagined. How well is morale (always historically low in Russia's military) going to hold up when they are losing comrades and getting their noses bloodied on a regular? Also, only time will tell how much stomach the Russian citizenry will have for this invasion when their neighbors and friends start coming home in body bags.
3. The sanctions are going to hurt. Already, Russia's stock market lost 1/3 of its value since the invasion began. The ruble is already trash on the world market. The oligarch's western-held assets are frozen. There is a ban on exports coming from Russia, not that they make anything but oil & gas. They can't trade with any country that uses dollars, euro, pound, or yen. Well, that's gotta suck. And after a few months, those sanctions are going to start being felt by the regular folks. How much support does Putin think he will have when already fatalist citizens have even more trouble getting the things they need, while attending funerals of family who died on Ukrainian soil? Already, there have been domestic protests in Moscow itself, evidence that Putin does not enjoy the universal support of his people.
The more I think about it, the less I'm convinced that Putin thought this through. He may succeed in taking this region, but he will pay exorbitantly to hold it. These people are showing the same kind of resolve displayed by Afghans under both Soviet and US occupations. They will engage in constant insurgency, and never give him the peaceful, docile citizenry e needs to consider this mission a success. A nation of anti-Putin terrorists. With machine guns their own government gave them. And something to fight for.
Yeah, this dude may have made a big misstep. If we are to see the kind of resolution to "The Putin Problem" that doesn't involve nukes on American soil, it might just come from his own people finally having enough of him. He will never go quietly, and that's sad for the Russian people... but at least it would be them taking him out. He'd never drop a nuke on his own land.
There are a lot of different ways this could play out, both long- and short-term. Putin paying for overstepping is a distinct possibility.
Yeah, we are similar in our contemplation on the matter. One thing I also think is certain: if things don’t go the way he wants them to go, the “brutal” factor will increase dramatically.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Zelenskyy was urged to evacuate Kyiv at the behest of the U.S. government but turned down the offer, according to a senior American intelligence official with direct knowledge of the conversation. The official quoted the president as saying that “the fight is here” and that he needed anti-tank ammunition but “not a ride.”
American politicians should take note, this is how you lead.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
Yeah, this dude may have made a big misstep. If we are to see the kind of resolution to "The Putin Problem" that doesn't involve nukes on American soil, it might just come from his own people finally having enough of him. He will never go quietly, and that's sad for the Russian people... but at least it would be them taking him out. He'd never drop a nuke on his own land.
There are a lot of different ways this could play out, both long- and short-term. Putin paying for overstepping is a distinct possibility.
.02
IMO, the Russian people rising up against Putin would probably be the "best" case scenario here.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
Zelenskyy was urged to evacuate Kyiv at the behest of the U.S. government but turned down the offer, according to a senior American intelligence official with direct knowledge of the conversation. The official quoted the president as saying that “the fight is here” and that he needed anti-tank ammunition but “not a ride.”
American politicians should take note, this is how you lead.
Bruhhhhhhhhh this is so cool.
Wise words spoken by sages From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
American politicians should take note, this is how you lead.
Fun fact: Before his candidacy for the office he now holds, this man was a media personality- a stand-up comic.
Well, look at this, folks: the Class Clown is now staring down the school bully- on the world's biggest playground. He ain't going for the laffs this time... and he ain't backing down.
He understands that his country's future is at stake- and no matter the outcome, he's already writing how History will remember him as his peoples' leader.
His People are taking their cues from him- and are resisting Putin's efforts to the nth degree- in front of The Entire World's cameras.
Ukrainian citizens are taking to the streets, armed with automatic rifles their government has supplied, to defend their nascent democracy. They are already making this initiative bloodier, messier, and more internationally visible than Putin ever expected/calculated.
They remind me of a young, upstart democracy who defied the odds against an authoritative system that sought to own/direct them from afar, back in the late 1700's.
_______________
Americans of every stripe should be rooting for these people. They are the modern embodiment of who we fought so hard to be... despite what we've allowed ourselves to become over the passing years. We are watching a fledgling democracy defend itself against existential extinction in the same way that America did in the war of 1812.
If we believe in the basic tenets of a working democracy, we should do all that we can to help these folks grow what they have planted.
Putin may have bitten off more than he can chew, but I warn everyone to not underestimate him. He seems hellbent on putting the Soviet Union, or a Russia with borders like those of the Czars in place before he exits the world stage. I think any number of things might happen. Most of them bad.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
