DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus War in Ukraine

at this point, we're completely justified in jumping into this mess and wrecking the russians. they are intentionally targeting civilians, and they need to be stopped.

I think we continue to follow NATO. Unless momentum does a huge shift on the ground there, it looks like Russia won't be able to sustain. There's talk of them defaulting on their debt in a matter of weeks, and more and more companies are pulling out.

Which leads me to my next question... what does it actually mean when a company "pulls out of Russia". Does it mean they are just sending employees home for a couple weeks, or is it something more long-term?

Not sure of the financial ramifications of corps pulling out, but I think the moral of the citizens really takes a hit and could help them become even more opposed and confrontational with their leaders.

Of course this is dependent on what they see and hear about what is happening, and don't believe it as an attack by corporations on them.

I’m sure it will be framed that way. You do have to wonder, though, if you’re a citizen over there why all these various news media groups get shut down and the only ones left are blatantly pro-Putin.

Sounds like cancel culture is alive and well in Russia too. What a coincidence. The left works the same in Russia that they do here! Interesting!

So ... I asked this in another thread/post:

What is to be done - we all agree Putin is a douche that deserves a bullet. We probably mostly feel there is justification for NATO and the USA becoming active in the war. But is that actually what people want? We want to help Ukraine more - but I don't see how that happens without active involvement and a declaration of war.

If we don't become active and Russia eventually withdraws - and their economy is wrecked. . . what are the dangers with Putin still in power - anyone thinks that's it and the world is safer? Or is it likely to be more dangerous? How much should every day Russians suffer - none of who want this war. I mean - does anyone remember protests like they have had? The economy collapsing hurts them the most.

It's a total mess. without clear/good choices. Maybe the only positive long term might be a distancing of Russia/Chinese relations? Maybe China will realize what would happen if they ever moved on Taiwan?

I was online the other day and had the opportunity to ask a Russian - without leading the direction - thoughts on the situation. Their response was "No one I know supports this war, but all the state media talk about the fabulous 70% of the population that approves of it." ... But much like China or Nth Korea - there is no plausible way for 'the people' to rise and overthrow the government.

j/c...



No Bic Macs. Now no more Whoppers.

So Putin decided to dive right into the terrorism bag, huh?

that's the crap the al qaeda and the taliban love doing. wowzers.

I would not want to be the one who had to stand and explain that logic to the millions of Ukrainians facing daily bombings and having hospitals, apartment complexes, residential neighborhoods, churches, and schools blown up all around them, wondering when it would be their turn. "Well, we are just going to sit tight here because we think Russia will run out of steam before too long. Keep up the good fight guys!!! But hey, on the bright side, Russians can't get McDonalds or Netflix anymore and we did confiscate some billionaires yachts, so they are suffering too ."

You mean like banning books in our schools? Not allowing educators to even mention the word gay? Like all those multiple businesses Trump called on his supporters to boycott? That cancel culture?

I've never seen so many people just as guilty of something as the other side while pretending they're not.

Totally understand that.... and that's the rub, right? You want to do something, but by actually doing something substantive you're throwing gas on the fire and conflict will definitely spread. And at the end of the day, that's what we're going for, right? (less conflict vs more)

I think the true measure of NATO will be when the dust settles. What happens (consequences) to Putin/Russia? What happens with Ukraine? What happens to other countries on Russia's doorstep that express interest in joining NATO?

You know Swish, I'm a person that supports or does not support something based on current conditions. As conditions change you have other factors to consider that were not a part of the equation before. I think some people call that flip flopping. The reason they call it that because no matter the evidence, no matter how much things change, they are too stubborn to alter what they think based on the facts at hand.

Early on in this, conditions were such that we were at a point I didn't think the NATO alliance should get involved at that juncture. I use the term NATO alliance and not The United States because that's what we are, a single member, but certainly the most powerful one, of a 30 nation coalition. Acting independently of that coalition would show a divide between us. It would show there isn't unity in NATO. That would send a sign of weakness, not strength. The "strength in numbers" factor of NATO is what makes it strong.

That said, conditions have changed since I strongly objected to us getting involved. Now I'm not so sure.

Bro, you’ve lost your mind. There’s more to world events than left and right. You’ve been brainwashed.

That’s interesting, man. Thanks for sharing. I think that last part is obviously the most discouraging aspect.

I am trending in that same direction as well, but I have to admit and somehow ponder to myself whether it’s my emotions and grief taking over at what I’m witnessing, vs what is logically the best thing. I vacillate constantly between the assertion that we’re not doing nearly enough to what would be a very justifiable cause, vs the risk calculation of taking a bad situation and making it worse.

It’s agonizing.

If they move on to chemical/biological warfare, that’s a whole other level. There’s already a solid argument for genocide in there.

You would have to wonder why all these international companies are supporting Nazis.

j/c...

Russia Responds to Sanctions with Export Bans

https://www.reuters.com/business/russia-suspends-exports-tech-telecoms-medical-auto-agricultural-equipment-until-2022-03-10/?taid=622a52ea27d3f20001e21bc9&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

This only hurts Russia, right? Please tell me what I'm missing here.

Russia exports a large percentage of the world's fertilizer and most of Europe/Africas's wheat.

Changing your mind based on new information or a change of heart to old information is what mature adults do.

Changing your mind based on no new information because there is something to gain from saying you believe something different is flip-flopping and what politicians often do.

There was going to be risks either way and I fully understand that I'm talking with about 2% of the available information and no history as a military strategist... buuuuuuuuuuut, it seemed to me that swift and decisive re-action in the first few days was the way to go. My logic, to use a simplified example, was.. if you see on your security camera that 3 guys are trying to break into your house while you are home... do you play defense and wait until all 3 get in and one is in the kitchen, one is in the den, and the other is headed upstairs toward the bedrooms before you take action? Or do you play offense and position yourself to shoot the first one through the door and see what happens with the other 2?

I understand the risks... but now that millions have been displaced, thousands have been killed, billions in property has been destroyed, and the Russians are very much spread out and surrounding key cities... NOW is the time to step in? I just think being in this position was predicted and NATO will now be left playing catch-up... watching the news almost every night since this thing started, good for the Ukrainians for doing all they could do to slow the Russians down and make them suffer losses, but that's all they have been doing, they haven't stopped them, they haven't regained any territory, they have just been losing slower than people expected.. but they have been losing none-the-less.

Russia ranks first and China ranks second in the export of fertilizer. And other than Canada at #3, the amount exported isn't even close. We rank 4th and just barely export more than half of what Russia does and not much more than half of what China exports. That number is based on the dollar amounts of fertilizer exported.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1278057/export-value-fertilizers-worldwide-by-country/

Yes, this is one reason why food prices are going up. Fertilizer has been very expensive ever since Covid interrupted supply lines. Now it will be worse.

I had no idea Russia led the world in processed poo by a significant margin.

On a serious note, that's a good point.

I don't really disagree with what you're saying, but at the time I saw it a little differently. I saw it as three guys hanging out on the street. Sure they were casing your house but they hadn't broken in yet. I saw and still do to some extent as this is not a NATO country. I saw and still do see to some extent that our involvement could spread the war quickly which would create a situation of the conditions you described on a higher level in more countries. I think it would cause a mass escalation of the war.

I mean I think considering what you are describing if that were the case, we should have gotten involved when Russia invaded Crimea.

I believe America would probably do more if they could get the rest of NATO to get on board with it. Much like blocking Russian oil. That's something that we did more independently than an across the board move by NATO. I also think if we start acting independently or along with only a hand full of other NATO countries, it will show NATO is divided and only embolden Putin further. That's my biggest concern about getting too much more involved at the current time.

Needless to say I'm very torn on the issue. I mean I'm all for punching a bully in the mouth. But I've never had to face that situation when the bully had a huge military and enough nukes to destroy the face of the earth.

If I was to guess - I would think Day of Dawg is confusing private companies that host social media (FB - Twitter) banning content from known liars (Trump) who constantly spread provable lies and disinformation ... and thinking that's the same as media groups like NEWS outlet that get shut down by the State.

Ironically one of the many similarities between the Trump presidency and despot dictatorships was his relentless attack on the free press and media and constructing a narrative that any negative news story/article etc raised by the free press is "fake news". That and of course the cancel culture of which Trump was the ultimate cheerleader.

I’m not too surprised. BS seems to be something they specialize in.

just remember that its only flip flopping if someone routinely rides the fence on the same issue multiple times. having an opinion and then being able to adjust/change your opinion based on new and factual evidence isn't flip flopping; its being able to adapt and evolve. There's a lot of people who had a strong overall opinion on our involvement, and then were able to see information and events damn near real time.

this is why i've said before that for the most part, social media has done far more good than bad. think about how ALL of our opinions would've sounded had this happened 20 years ago. but its certain situations where we can deal with flip flopping, and certain situations where a stance has to be taken. i'm hopeful because for the most part, americans are actually paying attention and rallying around the ukrainians. but with regards to NATO, i hope more and more people realize just how important these alliances are. the fact that western society got this freaking comfortable to think that NATO was useless was kinda sad, but i'm glad we rebounded quickly. it isn't perfect, but there's people don't consider how many conflicts have been prevented just because of the alliance. or how much money has been saved on the back end because of the lack of large scale conflicts we're engaged in. trashing allies, trying to be isolationist, and trying to play the bully is a quick way to be all alone on an island, just like Russia.

i'm still utterly shocked that Erdogan in Turkey decided to do their part. it made me crack a smile, because even a piece of crap like him understands the importance of NATO.

I'm not taking anybody's side in whatever the argument is.. but I will chime in and say that the lines between those two things are becoming increasingly blurred...

While you wrote your post - I clarified that further. If you go look at my post again, you'll see I have qualified the news being shut down by the state ... I agree with your comment/premise that News media and social media are close cousins. In fact I think we are at the point where the majority get their "news" via social media?

j/c...

I understand what you're saying about social media being a good thing. It certainly can be but I think that's often dependent how someone uses the tools they've been given. And it's certainly true we get a lot more details in real time now. The first time I saw something like this was the Vietnam War. It brought the war right into your home every night on the news. Nothing like that had ever been done before. As a kid I was shocked by it. Death doesn't have the same impact when all you do is put a number on it. It created outrage in this country and was the first time people worked together to help end a war.

The internet has put that on blast and makes it much easier and even more in real time. I could never have imagined something like this during the time I was growing up.

I remember as a kid, CNN televising the Persian Gulf War in real time. Watching the Tomahawk missiles and other bombs light up the night sky.

And what kid could forget the trading cards!

I've seen the same thing over and over for as long as I've been alive. This has been the status quo in the US for decades.

I'll never cease to be amazed by how many people are seemingly oblivious to their own hypocrisy.

Meh, I'm not disagreeing with. Just saying.

A working link

It isn't clickable for some reason, but since I can't edit anymore.

linky

So you oppose what these companies are doing? You think they should continue to operate at full go in Russia?

I was just teasing with you. It was easy enough to copy and paste into the address bar.

I guess Russia is trying to leverage what they have to offer the world.
To show us that we need them too.

Exclusive: Facebook will temporarily allow posts calling for violence against Russians, calls for Putin's death

March 10 (Reuters) - Meta Platforms (FB.O) will allow Facebook and Instagram users in some countries to call for violence against Russians and Russian soldiers in the context of the Ukraine invasion, according to internal emails seen by Reuters on Thursday, in a temporary change to its hate speech policy.

The social media company is also temporarily allowing some posts that call for death to Russian President Vladimir Putin or Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko in countries including Russia, Ukraine and Poland, according to a series of internal emails to its content moderators.

These calls for the leaders' deaths will be allowed unless they contain other targets or have two indicators of credibility, such as the location or method, one email said, in a recent change to the company's rules on violence and incitement.

The emails said calls for violence against Russians are allowed when the post is clearly talking about the invasion of Ukraine. They said the calls for violence against Russian soldiers were allowed because this was being used as a proxy for the Russian military, and said it would not apply to prisoners of war.

Meta did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

The temporary policy changes apply to Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Russia and Ukraine.

Last week, Russia said it was banning Facebook in the country in response to what it said were restrictions of access to Russian media on the platform. Moscow has cracked down on tech companies, including Twitter(TWTR.N), which said it is restricted in the country, during its invasion of Ukraine, which it calls a "special operation."

Many major social media platforms have announced new content restrictions around the conflict, including blocking Russian state media RT and Sputnik in Europe, and have demonstrated carve-outs in some of their policies during the war.

Emails also showed that Meta would allow praise of the right-wing Azov battalion, which is normally prohibited, in a change first reported by The Intercept.

Meta spokesman Joe Osborne previously said the company was "for the time being, making a narrow exception for praise of the Azov Regiment strictly in the context of defending Ukraine, or in their role as part of the Ukraine National Guard."

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-instagram-temporarily-allow-calls-violence-against-russians-2022-03-10/?taid=622a703727d3f20001e221cf&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter