DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Watson continued (new grand jury)

So, you supported the team right up until the team traded for Watson.

Ok...why don't you say your good-byes, quit trolling the board and hit the dusty road?


Cool, you don't support the team any longer. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I suppose if you want to post over in the smack shack that would be cool.

My mind is not made up at all. I've actually been thinking what if this kid did nothing... But hey, you got me figured out, so why don't you just write my posts and PM them to me... Shut up.

This has been explained to you over and over again. It seems you don't care or consider any of it.

I just like to state the facts because you don't adhere to the principles of innocent until proven guilty.

He may not have the best character but legally, he did nothing wrong, not yet.

I know you and others don't like being called out. You call that trolling because it makes you uncomfortable. Throwing shade on other makes you feel better about it. You have me confused with someone who gives a damn about that.

The door isn't going to hit me anywhere because I'm not going anywhere. You can either deal either that or not. Your choice.

You really don't know that. You refuse to consider that it's nearly impossible to prove a he said/she said case. You refuse to consider that the police considered them credible witnesses. You refuse to consider that the rate of bringing sexual cases like this is very low and the conviction rates are also low. So either you believe that the vast majority of women in this country are liars or you believe a lot of people who do such things get away with it. Either you believe all of these women are lying or you don't. Like I said, no matter how many times this explained to you, all you have is the same old line.

J/c

I know Jimmy denied being the one to put the adult comment out there. I'll come right out and say it: I'd like some posters to act like adults.

It would have been nice if there had been a little more football, like this forum is supposed to be about, in the press conference, but it went about how I expected. The standard hot take media approach that makes me not want to turn on the television.

Where do you come up with that? Who thinks that? I don't believe that. I don't think anyone thinks the majority of women, let alone Vast majority are liars.

I don't mind being called out. I do mind when you start twisting things as you play your games.

If you aren't a fan of the team anymore, and you post things to put the team and owners down, that is trolling. You and people like Curly are one and the same.

Or one simply believe these women could be lying and are waiting for the evidence to indicate one way or the other. The world has lots of liars. Finding 22 would hardly be an onerous task. Telling people they could be in line for large cash settlements could probably create even more.

Again I'm not saying they are all lying, but nothing's been presented that has convinced me that they couldn't be. Some evidence has been presented that supports the idea that some of them could be.

When it comes to sexual crimes being committed against them, the numbers don't lie. mgh reported the percentage of times that perpetrators accused of sexual crimes actually made it to a trial. He also posted the conviction rates of those who actually ever made it to trial. In both cases the percentages were very low. So I repeat, either you think most of these women are liars or you think there's a lot of men who are guilty of sexual crimes that are never brought to justice. It's a math thing. You are also well aware of how difficult it is to convict a he said/she said case which helps explain a lot about those percentages

Whatever you have to do to make yourself feel better Peen.



Could you explain to me where I'm putting any other Browns players down besides Watson? And why weren't you telling people this when Haslam was being called on the carpet for ripping off all those truck drivers?

Numbers don't lie, but they can mislead. When talking about specific instances, the numbers have no bearing on whether an individual is lying or truthful. The numbers can also change over time. Just because a particular data point would be outside the expected range doesn't make it an invalid observation.

Pit, I know all of that. I am not so much siding with the guy, but I won't hold anything against him. I feel sorry for women who are attacked and feel badly for guys who are falsely accused.

It is what is. No sense talking about it much. All that is going to do is get people who generally get along in to people who don't get along.
I am done, at least for now.

I don't think there's really that much to talk about in regards to football. Dude is an elite QB. There's no question about that.

(this was in response to the question on why there weren't more football questions in the press conference)

Add: I think there was one question to Stefanski on how they're going to integrate Deshaun into the O, and even with that one question, KS just kinda punted it.

Trying to minimize the importance of the numbers doesn't change anything. The inference that you can't take the word of any of 22 women flies in the face of logic. But you keep doing you.

And there's also a separate thread for that. But trying to shut down the talk being discussed in this thread is the actual goal behind it.

I clarified my post as it was in response to Bull's question about the PC questions.

Beyond that, please stop. This thread (and it's predecessor) has only been about the sex assault side of Watson. That's 16 or 17 pages of message board in 6-7 days. Nobody is shutting down anything, and saying that shows how far you're distorting reality to fuel this White Knight fantasy of yours.

Let me get this right. You're no longer a fan of the Browns, but you're just sticking around on a Browns message board to "call out" Browns fans that don't agree with you and teach them a lesson?

DW IS the offense. KS hopes he can ramp up an offense to take advantage go this Golden Child. I see the play caller as our weakest link offensively. Should be interesting.

Somewhere between 2 and 22 will come a critical point where is just to much.

Coming forward and accusing someone for sexual assault is one of the most difficult thing a women can do without having solid evidence. As father that saw his own daughter being part of such a process I know what it means being mistrusted, even some of her so called own friends started to question her story. That’s hard to take as a young women who hasn’t experienced how evil some of the community can be.

How many believe that the $230 million GUARANTEED money BOUGHT Watson?

In the press conference Watson contends that wasn't the reason that brought him back to the table...LIE!!!!!!

When he says that ALL 22 women are basically "liars"....LIE!!!!!

You are assuming that the 22 women are a representative sample of the larger overall population of sexual misconduct accusers. This is a logical fallacy. This assumption is unsubstantiated and in some of the cases appears to be contraindicated.

I have legal facts and results, you have nothing but emotional opinions.

Over reliance on anecdotal evidence is another logical fallacy. I empathize with you and your daughter's experience. It's horrible that you both had to go through that. I agree with everything in your final paragraph. However, each of these 22 situations is it's own unique entity and could or could not correspond with the lived experience of any sexual assault accuser. There may be evidence that some or all made their claims for monetary gain. That's also disgusting in my eyes. There are many people in the world that do/have done bad things. It can be hard to discern who those people are. It's even harder without access to all the facts. Assumptions and appearances can be wrong.

2 grand juries declined to indict. maybe there exist a multiverse where he's guilty, but it doesn't appear to be this one.

it didn't matter what anybody on the browns would've said today that could change people's minds. if you think he's guilty, then that's something you gotta figure out on your own. but until he charged with something, what did you expect?

i'm glad we got Watson. i'm glad the FO didn't wait around, letting another team potentially get him first. if the FO would've listened to people in the media and on this board, they would've got trashed anyway because they let another team land a franchise QB while we sat around and did nothing. so far, looks like whatever research the FO did is accurate, because again, GJ's aren't even bothering to charge him with anything.

until something changes, move on.

j/c:

Folks act like they are being forced to root for the Browns against their will. You are not imprisoned. No one is making you follow the team. If you are so morally disgusted by Watson and Browns, you are free to root for another team or no team at all. So stop w/the phony dramatics. Most of the posters who are spinning the moral web are only doing so because they are upset about Baker.

What's crazy is that I left this board and watched this past season's games. w/disgust because I was sick of Baker and his fan base. No one made me root for the Browns. No one made me stay on the board. We have free choice to leave if we are disgusted. The phony facade that some of you are putting forth is not working.

Or you could try to get on board with a sock puppet account.

I thought Watson was definitely worth going after if he got thru the legal issues. Then when it looked like we were getting serious, I decided he wasn't worth the headache and drama signing him would bring and was relieved when they said we were out of the running. I was OK with a healthy Baker starting next year, and then Baker goes and demands to be traded. (I thought I read somewhere that he said he wouldn't play for the Browns ever again, but I can't find anything and I could be wrong.) Then we're back to Watson. He's now a Brown and I'm a Browns fan. So far, I haven't seen where there's any proof that he committed a crime. Just 2 of the 22 accusations are claiming sexual assault, and one of those initially said that what happened was consentual and tried to extort 30k from Watson. I want to see the depositions and evidence before I pass any judgment. All we have now is hearsay. I'm not going to hang the guy because some attorney rounded up 22 people, people who had no intentions of pursuing litigation, to file civil lawsuits.

Thanks!

From a sports perspective I'm trilled we got Watson. I saw the press conference and he gave a good impression except the "he didn't regret" thing that I found creepy.

My take away. He could have had sex with these women without doing some illegal, but at the same time he could also have acted without respect by using his fame and male power to do something they felt uncomfortable with. It's possible to have these two parallel thoughts in our heads and come to the conclusion that he's legally innocent but at the same time acting creepy and morally incorrect in these situations. There is no conflict in these two conclusions.

What I'm against is when we dismiss these womens stories and start to question their character and their motives. That's not necessary and unworthy us as Browns supporters. Thats why I repeatedly stand up for these women without knowing who's right or wrong.

"It looked like a funeral" - Rich Eisen

j/c:

I will say this about the situation. Today's press conference was hard for me to watch. The media went after Berry and Watson hard. There were some things that neither party could answer because there are civil cases that have not been concluded.

I do feel that there is going to be a ton of negative attention on Watson and the Browns. I don't watch sports for controversy. I love the game. I don't want politics, religion, race, social issues, or legal matters to be the focus. I enjoy escaping from those everyday issues when I watch sports. But, I know this story is not going away. There will be a cloud over the team for quite some time.

Unlike some, I will not indict either side. I will not say the attorney is trying to make millions off of Watson. I will not say the Texans put him up to it after Watson said he wanted a trade. I will not say that racism ran rampant in the Texans' organization and that is why Watson wanted out. I will not say that the massage therapists are trying to exploit Watson. I won't say any of those things because I do not know the truth. I am not going to be on some sort of crusade to slander one side or the other. I don't condone that type of reasoning. For example, why I think Baker stinks as a qb and I don't like his character, there is a reason I have not jumped on the CheeseCake parking lot and having sex w/Higgens' woman rumors. I have no idea if they are true or not and I will not slander Baker's name for such accusations. Honor knows where and when to draw the line.

I think this part is important......so, for those of you who like my posts....please consider this. I believe some people are so maniacal about their beliefs that they feel this need to relentlessly attack those who don't agree w/them. It's the primary reason I left this board a year and a half ago. I never understood why it is so important to get others to agree w/you. State your case and live w/it. Why do people need approval from others to justify their stance?

And yet here you are telling others how to post. Telling us what the Baker fans think and want. Telling us why others have stated their opinions and telling us their motives. Telling us what threads should be allowed and where.

Lots of good football talk since you have been back - but lots of the stuff that does not fall into "state your case and live with it" .

I don't watch a lot of sport shows and don't listen to a lot either especially outside of football season ... but Rich Eisen impresses me when i hear him and he has been very genuine and on the money with his takes on the current Browns situation. Thanks for sharing.

Ugh, here we go..

j/c

I just finished watching the Rich Eisen vid, and I gotta say, I'm actually depressed.

Only the Cleveland Browns could manage to acquire their first franchise QB since Otto Graham, and do so under a cloud of mess, stink, shade and controversy. Like I said in my only other DW post, I will probably watch this team make it to a SB with this guy, and even if they win, I will probably view it with an asterisk attached. And I effing hate that.

Browns just picked up a top 5 NFL QB, and possibly solidified their spot as a perennial playoff team for the next 5-8 years, and I can't get happy about it at all. I should be doing handsprings after all these years of futility, but I can't get past how stank all of this feels.


These muffs make it so, so hard to be a happy fan.
Always something to make me shake my head.


.02

"My mind is not made up at all. I've actually been thinking what if this kid did nothing... But hey, you got me figured out, so why don't you just write my posts and PM them to me... Shut up."

Sorry I didn't word things right. I'm not trying to put anybody down, and I sure don't mean any harm. But your posts have been totally negative in one direction. I will shut up and never reply to you again. Have a nice day

I’m tired of this damn argument. Until something new comes up in terms of the legal stuff, it is futile to go back and forth, everybody stating their opinion over and over again.

I liked Baker, but he wasn’t consistent enough. DW is a clear upgrade, he’s my QB and if people don’t like my stance, I don’t care. If it comes out that he is an absolute piece of trash human being, I’ll change my mind.

I wish one of the reporters had asked him how he feels about being away from the game for a season and how he will address any rustiness, or thoughts on the talent he’ll have around him. I did notice that when he answered a question, he looked the reporter in the eye. Might not mean much but that’s what I noticed.

You know where I stand on the sexual predator issues, but the more I read and hear, none of this seems quite right. From “victims” supposedly saying they wanted to get paid, two juries declining to charge, to DW's constant denial with zero evidence that he is taking anything but the clear my name route through this... It all has me wondering if this kid did a thing. I just can't see how it all happened almost at once. But then there is his butting heads over “racist ownership” that only slightly preceded the allegations, IIRC. Could this be a coordinated attack on him over that? I just don't know...

Then Rich Eisen says he was a model player and member of the community. AND HE DRIVES THE POINT, like the kid is/was a saint. These have to be considered.

So I have gone from being furious, to open to the facts, and now doubting his guilt or at least open to him being innocence. Yet, I still feel exactly like you. So, just going to wait and see too, I guess.

Extortion has always been a part of the business model of the sex industry. Sensual masseurs, strippers, lap dancers, escorts are IMHO part of the sex industry.

All man should be aware of the risks, in all situations dealing with sexual or quasi sexual services, its the nature of the game.

Don't ever get drunk, or go drunk into an adult place. Be sure to leave if any of your mates gets drunk and wants to party in this type of places. Don't touch anyone, don't talk to anyone unless you want and are willing to pay.

Its nothing new in sports, its actually part of the appeal of being a famous player.

In my eyes so far, I don't see Watson has a sex predator, but has a sex addict