DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Watson continued (new grand jury)

Here is a lesson that comes with age and experience. I’m not suggesting that you don’t have it but just so we be clear sometimes in life you can chose to be smart or you can chose to trying to be 100% right.

First of all we don’t know if he’s innocent. (“things he didn’t do” or not) Not even a grand jury can establish that with 100% certainty without proof. So that argument goes out of the window.

Secondly maybe he in his own eyes sees himself innocent but these 22 women and maybe some others don’t think it’s so clear and obvious. It’s all about what we think is involved in the word ‘innocent”. There are many times in my life when I have felt that I’m innocent but instead of fighting for my “honor” I sometimes take the smart road and apologize so we can move on.

Third when 22 women accuse you of wrong doings you’re probably not without fault. Maybe Watson think it’s normal with massage and “happy endings” and maybe he thinks that he’s paying for these “services” but that doesn’t mean the women agree with his conclusions. So from the first moment he could have misunderstood their mutual agreements.

The reason I and many others suggest he should settle the cases is because that’s the smartest way to move forward. Instead of fighting in a court house for months maybe years he can end this media circus and start to focus on his future as being a Brown QB. It’s can also be important, believe it or not, to make peace with these women. Leaving so many unsatisfied women behind you without solving these issues can in a worst case scenario create a situation when these women or people in general searching for some sorts of revenge. Never underestimate peoples willingness to get the score even.

Finally DeShaun Watson, or maybe I should jokingly start to call him Mr Happy Ending, has all the money in the world to solve his future so he can move on in peace. Invest a couple of millions and let this s h i t go away FFS.

Be smart. Create the ultimate Happy Ending… LOL Life isn’t always fair and sometimes we have to accept that. That goes for both Mr Happy Ending and these 22 women.

Yea…no.

If I’m innocent, then I’m gonna maintain my innocence. Anything less IS an admission of guilt.

I dunno if Watson is 100% innocent, but HE believes he is. You’re mad at the guy for defending his character, something that every last person on this board would do in a similar situation.

Again, putting myself in his shoes, I’m not making peace with anybody trying to ruin my career. I got two different grand juries that wouldn’t even bother bring charges up, and I’m absolutely fighting the lawsuits, cause I’m not paying a damn thing for something I didn’t do. I might even counter sue because two of them tried to extort me for cash.

Yes deshaun, be smart. Fight the nonsense, and the rulings on the lawsuits will determine if you’re liable or not. Don’t do what fans say, because they’re the same fans who didn’t want you traded here in the first place.

You wouldn't do it if you had 22 lawsuits pending either. Almost every person in prison claims they're innocent too. Just ask them.

I think that 22 accusations from 22 different women is evidence.

All I know is that every last game we ever win, we'll have the joke "I love it when we get a Happy Ending".

It is circumstantial at best and inadmissible for criminal complaints.

Of course you do. You somehow think the accusation of 1 woman a fine comparison to 22.

So circumstantial evidence isn't evidence? The totality of the accusers isn't evidence? Do you have any idea how many people have been convicted strictly based on circumstantial evidence?

Here's the bottom line. It's the word of watson against the word of each women. So you certainly have to draw a conclusion either way. You either have to do the mental gymnastics to convince yourself that 22 women are lying or you have to consider the overwhelming number of women. One would have to consider the numbers in regards to the conviction rates that mgh posted above. This really isn't all that complicated. Some have chosen to believe what they want to believe in order to justify supporting him.

22 women who were not planning public accusations until they were sought out and prepped by 1 showboating attorney.

That's your story and you're sticking to it. With all of those mental gymnastics I'm sure your mind is in terrific shape.

There are no mental gymnastics needed for anything. Our legal system presumes you innocent until you are proven guilty. It also requires that the evidence presented be direct eveidnce, not something that is merely a circumstance. The number of accusers is merely a circumstance of the situation. Thus far the witnesses have not had compelling testimony to grant an indictment. Those are the facts.

I get it, you want blood. You have a visceral need to see him punished for something because you, like a lot of people, can't fathom someone is accused without cause. Thankfully our legal system isn't twitter. Thankfully we have minimum standards for evidence before someone loses their freedoms. Thankfully YOU are not in charge of judging these complaints except on the Internet.

Beat the drum until it breaks but that does not change the fact that the number of accurers will be circumstantial evidence and would not be permissible in a criminal complaint. It may end up having bearing in a civil matter, but a civil matter would not be aout guilt. It is about responsibility.

Maybe if you stopped your mental gymnastics and looked at this with some logic and understanding of how the legal system is designed you would understand it better. You don't have to like it, but that is how it is.

It's evidence. The question is evidence of what? To answer that question, one has to look at how that evidence fits together with all the other evidence. Without access to all the other evidence/on their own, accusations are nowhere near conclusive.

22 accusations could be evidence of 22 crimes. 22 accusations could be evidence of a conspiracy. There are a lot of things each accusation could be evidence of.

Pot meet kettle. Although one might wonder if instead of terrific shape the inability to adapt to additional information is indicative of one having the neuroplasticity of a box of rocks.

This is the state of our society today. A lot of things "could be". But to try to lump them all together like the probability of all those scenarios being as equally likely is where the flaw lies. There are some scenarios that seem pretty logical. Some are very far fethched.

Anything less IS an admission of guilt.
Just because YOU don’t think you’re guilty or the court rule in your favor doesn’t mean all others see you as innocent. Settling these cases doesn’t automatically mean 100% guilt or innocence for either Watson or these 22 women. It means both want to move on without admitting either guilt or innocence. There are still two perspectives and two versions of what happened between these 22 women and Mr Happy. (Sorry I couldn’t help myself)

You’re mad at the guy for defending his character, something that every last person on this board would do in a similar situation.

Actually the opposite. When I see a young man potentially getting into deeper trouble I and many others (many experienced lawyers) advice Mr Happy to maybe forget about about guilt or not guilt. Nobody will walk out of this with their honor intact. Life isn’t that black and white when it comes to sexual activities and paying for “services”.

I’m not making peace with anybody trying to ruin my career.

Once again you just look at it from your perspective. Nobody is ruin anybody’s career. What kind of crap is that. You can easily flip the coin and say that Mr Happy is ruin his own career when paying women for “services” that in some cases end up with sexual activities. My take is that Mr Watson probably can put his career more on track if he settle this cases and just move on.

What is nonsense for you maybe other people with other perspectives sees as being smart and thinking long term. We come back to the same thing as Mr Happy wanted in the first place.

A truly Happy Ending. (Now I have to stop,,,,)

(Swish - Sorry for all the lame jokes. Not aimed at you)

Sadly you try to compare some made up conspiracy theory as being on equal footing as 22 accusations and then question the neuroplasticity of someone else? That's rich.

And what "additional information" are you talking about? That out of all the over 50 massage therapists he's had, 18 of them who spoke out that they weren't sexually assaulted? Or is it that somehow watson's defense attorney magically came up with what, four or five women that claim a hand full of the alleged victims were lying? Or is it a recording that none of us know the content of?

See, it seems that those who accuse me of cherry picking what they do and don't believe are trying to make some case by doing the exact same thing. So as you would say, pot meet kettle.

Not knowing the content makes me consider the possibilities. Not knowing the content apparently makes you pretend things don't exist. Those are quite a bit different.

I've never said they were equally probable. However, the improbable frequently happens. The likelihood of winning the lottery is low, and yet, people win it. People get struck by lightning. Clusters of unexpected data points show up in statistical studies.

The probability of a rich, famous man being falsely accused is different from the average man. The probability of a rich, famous man that meets a multitude of women online is probably even higher. But still, the probability isn't important. What actually occurred is the thing that is legally relevant.

Do you suffer from chronic insomnia? Reduced neuroplasticity would explain a lot.

While I don't disagree with your point - I also want to reiterate what my point is .... there are a large number of posters thinking that not being indicted by the GJ on these allegations is tantamount and equal to being viewed innocent of all charges. The numbers surrounding the conviction and prosecution rates shines a very, very bright light on the fact that what might apply to other criminal prosecution (you can indict a ham sandwich) does most definitely NOT apply to cases of sexual assault. Clearly if on 5% of reported incidence are prosecuted .... either 95% of the time the victim is lying - or the issue of proving guilt is a significant obstacle.

My point - seemingly backed by logic and historical data - is that the GJ decision means very little regards whether Watson may or may not be innocent. It is not a judgement of guilt it is a judgement about provability in the eyes of the law.

And that leads to your point of needing proof - yes, in a court of law, and in the eyes of the law that is entirely how it works. But the law and legal system and courts are not infallible nor are they perfect. . . But to repeat - if fans or people in general want to suspend any suspicion and feel Watson is innocent until proven otherwise, I don't have a problem with that. I am not going to tell them they are wrong or judge them. My very best friend in the world holds that view. For myself - as Rich Eisen quite eloquently expressed on more than one segment of his show - I have serious reservations about the conduct and the accusations, whether or not they are provable in a court of law. I see text messages from a women responsible for arranging massages expressing and exposing an issue - I see her later pleading the 5th which is her right, but raises more questions as it does whenever the accused pleads the 5th regardless of how the law is supposed to view it. And I see people judging Watson differently than they would a school teacher or CEO or office manager who had 22 civil claims of this nature hanging over them. He's not guilty in my eyes - because nothing has been proven - but he is under a cloud, and he and the Browns are tainted until the civil cases are dealt with and any evidence from those cases is reviewed/known.

Maybe you should explain what you consider the word "frequently" to mean. Your demeaning response seems out of character for you but at this juncture I don't find it surprising.

Well you know I disagree with your take.

But I like the jokes. At the end of the day, that isn’t me who has to answer for it, and I’ve already cracked a few myself throughout this so we’re good!

Convict? Yes.

But we don't convict people, that is left up to the courts. And there are a plethora of examples of public sentiment without a court case. Take Rock v Smith last night as an example...

For example, the odds of winning a powerball jackpot are 1 in millions (I think I saw 292M-ish somewhere.) However a dozen or so people win those jackpots every year.

While the odds of something happening to any particular person can be low, The odds of that thing happening to some person, somewhere can be high.

Watson could just be that "1 in a million" person that got "(un)lucky."

You seem to put an irrational amount of belief in numbers. You constantly refer to the 22 women as if they're part of some simple arithmetic problem. 22 > 1, so Deshaun is lying. I see it as more of a complex polynomial algebraic problem with a plethora of unknown variables. So many unknown variables, in fact, that I have little hope in solving it, so instead I admit multiple possibilities. 22 accusers is a part of the equation, not the equation in its entirety. Or perhaps rather each accuser is her own part of the equation, but even those parts have their own unknown variables.

All the other percentages concerning sexual assault cases and reporting are context, but they're not a part of this particular equation.

It wasn't meant to be demeaning. It was me musing on possibilities. I read an article on neuroplasticity. It got me pondering whether stubbornness was a choice or whether the inability of the brain to form new connections presents as stubbornness. According to the article, chronic insomnia can lead to decreased neuroplasticity. Age can also lead to a decrease in the brains ability to adapt.

Many people seem to be sticking to their initial stances on this subject. I was wondering out loud if neuroplasticity, or lack thereof, played a role.

I was raised by an engineer, not a sociologist, I suppose that's a factor in the way I approach problems. I tend to try deconstruct things and see how the pieces might fit. I like hard facts and verifiability. I don't like making assumptions based on human polling.

JMHO, the world has been screwed up forever. Lots of forks DON'T believe in....innocent until PROVEN guilty....they've judged. I find it VERY interesting that the Haslam family talked it over and NONE of the three females vetoed the trade. I'm sure they didn't have any more info than the posters on this blog.

DW has been NOTHING but spectacular on and OFF the field- AND he denies and has not PAID a single woman yet. He's stated he's done nothing wrong- could he POSSIBLY be telling the truth. He comes from a single female parent of humble background- he probably was taught to disrespect women-----NOT. Go Browns!!!

This isn't wisdom, it's compliance with unfair norms. He shouldn't humble himself or settle if he is 100% innocent. To be honest at this point, sticking to his guns and proving his innocence is the best way out. If he can do that there will be no black marks (question marks) left on anything he accomplishes. If he settles, his entire career will be tainted by that. And fans will despise him.

But evidence of what? This is my sticking point since just before this DW claimed his ownership was racist. He pissed off BIG MONEY there. Who knows what triggered all these women to come forward all at once? But I could see this easily being an attack coordinated by somebody with deep pockets. That combined with 2 juries declining to charge, almost as many women saying he did nothing inappropriate, and his consistent claim of innocence (refusing to settle), all start to paint a different picture. I'm not sure on him, but I'm now much more open to facts.

If numbers is it? then how many people on a Grand Jury? 15+? that x2 is greater than 22, that decided not to prosecute.

I have just watched the Browns exclusive interview with Deshaun and Nathan Zegura. It’s almost heartbreaking to hear him talk about football and his future and to see him feel secure and relaxed made me root for him a little bit.

Strangely enough I liked what he said and it was touching to see him be in his natural element. As father of grown up kids I perfectly understand his relief and happiness to be “free’ again. It’s also why I’m so irritated and conflicted about this whole situation. If I’m angry and disappointed it’s with Andrew Berry and his side kick Stifinsky. (I just renamed him) It’s easy to understand a young man coming thru a storm of allegations and negative media coverage. Whatever happened he’s only human. But our GM and HC is a different story.

Someone will have to pay the price for me and many other disappointed Browns supporters frustration. Right now Berry and the side kick will be my go to guys. First Baker then this vomiting hypocrisy

Mental gymnastics? I just want the truth. You're the one doing the stretching to connect dots.

So in his interview with Zegura - he says Cleveland was never out of the running. He made his decision based on our chance to win a SB... and no mention of the $250 million. Guy clearly never lies.

Or his waiving his no trade clause was contingent on roughly that contract and all the teams considered indicated that they were willing to do it. If they were all willing, the money isn't really a differentiator.

It's another one of those things that we'll probably never know the whole truth of.

I don't understand your point?

I see many evade my question. What I see to this point is 2 GJ's examined the claims and the associated evidence presented by the DA and didn't find it worth of even going to trial.

What is it those people on the panel don't know that some of the people on this board "know"?

j/c...

Includes clip(s) from Watson's depositions.

https://fox8.com/news/deshaun-watso...-tell-texans-about-massage-appointments/

I think the point is that some folks desperately want Watson to be guilty. They don't care about innocent until proven guilty. They don't care about a fair trial and allowing the law to take its course. They care about convicting a person through the avenue of public opinion. They would have fit right in Colonial New England when witches were unfairly tried and burned at the stake. The facts of the case didn't matter. Public outrage and condemnation are what is important here.

Personally, I have not idea what the real truth is. If Watson is guilty, he should pay the price for his crimes. If he is innocent, he should be permitted to live his life freely. I do find it hard to overlook 22 civil cases. I also find it hard to overlook that the number grew after Watson accused the Texans of internal racism and insisted on not playing for them again and then the news came out. Why didn't any of the alleged victims say anything before the civil suit was filed? It could be they were intimidated by the public scrutiny of making such accusations. Lord knows, countless women have subjected to cruel treatment for reporting sex crimes. On the other hand, it's possible they are chasing the almighty dollar. I don't know and neither does anyone else on here. Those pretending they are the omnipotent seers and prophets of this case and others are a stone around the neck of an evolving society.

This guy is so dirty...Not very smart either...

JC
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the burden of proof in civil cases is much lower than that of a grand jury or criminal case. He could very easily be "innocent" and still lose the civil cases.

Yes.... But there is a plethora of cases where people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence.. For what it's worth, there are 22 woman who say he's guilty. Only one person saying he's innocent.

All I'm saying is this, he went to women that he didn't even know were certified massage therapists. (There is an article out there with his deposition in it)

By his own admission he drove out of his way to get to those women.

You tell me, are all those women lying?

What you're describing is just as close to prostitution as it is to sex assault.

When it comes to online dating or anything online on social media or online advertisements, how much does one really "know" about the other person/business? First "dates"/visits are always a bit of a leap of faith.

I've met plenty of people without licenses that can give a good massage. I've met people with licenses that gave lousy massages.

The only way to really "know" which is which is to actually get a massage.

People bring up the number of "massage therapists" as evidence that he was doing something wrong. Would it change your thinking if you thought of them as job interviews? If you were considering bringing in a full time massage specialist, would you hire the first candidate?

I don't know whether or not the women are lying any more or less than you or anyone else that has never met them, nor seen/heard all of the evidence. They could be lying. They could not. That's why we have a legal system.