DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Black Coaches in Football...

With Brian Flores and others coming forward...this is a highly charged discussion...so I hope we can stay civil.

I think the Rooney doesn't help the situation. It leads to "token" interviews. Especially when the Team already has the person in mind they want to hire. I, for the life of me, don't know why Eric Bieniemy hasn't been given a shot yet.

The question that needs to be answered is....Is this racially motivated?

In some cases...it very well might be. I also think there are other factors at play here. As with most situations it will be a combination of a multitude of things.

I was thinking of something though that is a bit unconventional. And by no means am I saying this thinking is valid or even a major contributor in the complexity of this situation...but I wanted to explore it...

----------------------------------------------------------

To play at the highest level you need several things. A genuine love/knowledge of the game, a genuine work ethic, and genuine, god given talent. Lets face it, genetics take a part in all sports, As with everything there are exceptions to the rule.

To coach at the highest levels you also need things. A genuine love/knowledge of the game, a genuine work ethic, a genuine desire and ability to want to teach, and experience. As with everything there are exceptions to the rule. But I want to focus a little on the last part. Experience....

Consider that between 70 and 80 percent of all High School Football players are White. Lets just say 75. So blacks are not even 25 percent when you consider other minorities like Latino, Asian, etc. But once we get to College, Blacks make up 46 percent of all players, they are the largest demographic in college football. When going to the NFL 70 percent of the players are Black. They are far and above any other demographic as whites are in High School. Whites leave the playing of football, for whatever reason, at a MUCH higher rate then Blacks are.

So where am I going with this. Well, there is an adage that is a little degrading but it does have some truth to it. "Those who can't do, teach." For when looking at at the difference between playing and coaching the one attribute that is not controllable is talent. Again, there are exceptions to the rule. So when considering the numbers...........we see more and more non blacks ending their playing careers earlier. There can still be the love and knowledge of the game. For many PEOPLE, coaching is the one way to stay a part of that game as their ability to play at the higher level dwindles.

Can it be considered (I am asking) that PART of the reason for such a greater number of white coaches is because there is a MUCH greater rate of white players ending their playing careers and therefore starting their coaching careers earlier. And as such have far more "experience" in the coaching arena than others who played longer? Again, a little outside the box, and by no means an explanation or a sole reason. But I have to think that there has to be some sort of influence on the equation. It is just an exploration of a thought.

Personally, I would love a world where the color of someone's skin is moot. A world where people are weighed on actions, abilities, and, most importantly, humanitarian worth. A world where we embrace our differences and not one that focuses on them as a dividing line. I liken it to 5 pounds of gold and 5 pounds of Corn. Sure, they look different. They have different shapes, size, colors. But when you put them on opposite sides of a scale...the scales will go to the same height. They are even....equal. Different, but equal.

I don't see that happening in my lifetime. There are too many people on both sides that want to keep that dividing line alive. I just hope that if someone has a desire and ability to coach, whomever that person may be, that it is encouraged and that they are able to earn their station without irrelevant factors coming into play.

Just to get one thing out of the way (others will bring it up)... but there are other reasons why Bieniemy could be passed over for higher visibility positions (assault). I'm not saying there ISN'T some sort of racial bias against him, I'm just saying that there are other things going on in addition to the topic of this thread.

Why isn't there more ownership?

In some cases race might be a variable, but I doubt it plays as big of a part as many want to portrait.

The NFL business side is about relationships, and those will often trump most qualifications.

There are only so many positions available, and typically one must work their way up the ladder of coaching. So if they really want to fix the issue, start at the bottom by bringing in more coaches at the bottom, so that there are more qualified candidates at the top.

Can't be that.

I think it was Bucky Brooks that re-tweeted a Twitter thread about #NFLCoachesSoWhite. It talked about how most people in the NFL hire their white friends. It struck me that the focus of the following conversation was almost entirely focused on the white part and almost none at all on the friends part.

To me, both parts deserve consideration. Sports often use war metaphors. Teams often talk about being in the foxhole together. Would you prefer to be in a foxhole with someone who is extremely qualified on paper, but you don't know how they perform under pressure and haven't developed trust. Or, would you prefer to be in the foxhole with someone who is still qualified (perhaps less so), but you know and trust them?

Are interviews enough interaction to develop a real relationship and trust? How does the NFL get more networking and interaction to develop relationships and trust between minorities and decision makers?

I know there are programs with minority coaches mentoring other minorities, but that doesn't really do much for influencing the ones making hiring decisions.

Could the NFL develop a program with owners "mentoring" minority (or even all young) coaches? Or perhaps just a multitude of networking/relationship-building events? With technology, you could have short online events in season on recovery days even, perhaps. Get the groups together without the pressure of an interview setting. After firing a coach/GM, teams have pressure to get it right, too. The more unknowns, the more risk. The friend of a friend type of vetting comes into play.

I only pointed that out because, on the surface, the Bieniemy thing sounds like a slamdunk argument for the racism we're discussing here. It doesn't nullify the argument, but it's just not as clear-cut.

I've said this before, but the whole Rooney Rule thing is deeply flawed in its basic principles. Coaches and GMs are hired because their work experience/performance is allowed to shine. NFL, especially, is starved for coaching talent (arguably worse than the supply of good QB talent). Coaches who show that they're successful can be promoted quickly.

So what does that mean for this discussion? Means you gotta get minority coaches in at "learner" positions (position coaches) and make sure you're supporting/highlighting ones that show promise. Have a program that identifies players that would be good to make the transition to coaching, and have them coach their former position. Then you need a system in place that identifies ones that are doing well, and make sure they float to the top. I don't know what that would look like, but in corporate world you have your goals/expectations set and you review periodically.

Byron Leftwich should be the blueprint here, and it's no coincidence that he's come up under Arians.

No offense to anyone and I respect your opinions, but I believe that black coaches have been unfairly treated in the NFL. I agree that the Rooney Rule has been ineffective, but the rule should never had to be implemented in the first place. I was very involved in athletics as a player, coach, and even a scout. Trust me, there are a ton of capable black men that can lead football teams.

100% agree... the Rooney rule., while well intentioned, has been a joke... I like the idea of the draft picks for hiring men of color... that makes a little more sense to me....

I hope that more men of color will get an opportunity to be head coaches.... I was really sad that Leftwhich didn't get a HC position this year as I think he'd be great... I believe there are 7 black GMs which is 22% of the league but only 2(maybe) head coaches? that's 6%....

On the surface one would think he would get a shot. The guy has had success, but maybe the guy is just a dork?

I am not saying he is, but I just don't buy the racism thing. Maybe there is some owner who is to some degree, but I don't think all of them are, are even all the owners who's teams need a coach.

Then again, in a odd way, maybe it is because maybe it might be hard to fire a black coach without being called a racist and some owners just don't want to deal with that.

It's not a good thing to look at numbers and say things don't equal out.

I agree with this. You don't have to do anything other than look at the numbers. The majority of professional players are black. The majority of coaches are white. On the surface that doesn't make any sense.

Funny/discouraging story, but a couple of years or so ago, I stumbled upon a bunch of full Browns games on YouTube from the Bernie Kosar years. Full games, commercials and all. Watching these games was like reliving my childhood. I soaked up every minute of it. Would set time aside every night to watch and when I couldn't sleep I'd pull them up on my tablet in bed. The thing that stuck out to me the most was the commercials. All white people. Beer, cars, computers, radio shack, you name it. Not a single black person in any of the commercials. Cut to the game and all the announcers were white. And still 90% of the players were black. I never noticed it before growing up. I mentioned it to a good friend of mine who is black and he said he remembered that time. Needless to say he had a different experience than I did watching the games.

Not that I have any control over it, but I do take a little pride in how diverse the Cleveland Browns organization is and has been.

Hmmmm.........those are very good points.

The existence of the Rooney Rule itself (as flawed as it is) is evidence of a problem and, beyond that, our continued talking about it is evidence that that problem hasn't been adequately addressed (ie still a problem).

IMO, coaches capture the interest (and are ultimately hired) because of their results and experience. If NFL is going to do anything about representation in the coaching ranks, they gotta juice that part in terms of the minority candidates.

That is why I don't buy the racism angle.

It's discrimination pure and simple to figure someone like Brian Daboll can't get the same opportunity as Eric Bienemy to get the next NFL coaching job. And job discrimination is illegal in the United States.