DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Deshaun Watson Continued.....

jc..


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Sadly for you and those like you the owner and people who run this board do not share your view as it pertains to this topic. But then we do have self righteous people that think they should have control and the say so to dictate how this board is ran.

For the masses - certainly. Same as in every other walk of life, people rarely can focus on an issue and get distracted by noise and the shiny object.

Every time I read a post of yours I think of the movie 12 Angry Men.

It seems those who read my posts get far angrier than I do. Upholding one man over the word of 22 women only shows me that our society is stuck in the past where this has always been the case and the word of women are marginalized, rejected and they undergo character assassinations as a result. Many posts on this board point out the prime example of why more sexually abused women fear coming forward. My reaction to that is sadness, not anger.

Your posts reminding me of that movie is not because I think you're angry.

Yet, here we are still discussing Ben and Ray Lewis in that context.....Even when they retired, their cases were brought up concerning their legacies. Just saying.

Let's suppose that Deshaun Watson is perfectly innocent (I know that is an impossibility for some of you...this is all hypothetical). That some of the girls were trying to trap him...some of the girls were hoping to get a relationship with him...and some of the girls just had a misunderstanding because they were not Sports therapists akin to working on the groin muscles. In this situation...he is completely innocent of harassments, etc. Yet, when he retires...no matter how many Super Bowls he wins....they will always bring this up as a detriment to his legacy (especially since he will likely have to settle). Just a hypothetical...In this hypothetical situation, he has done nothing wrong and is forever marred...Many will say he is rich and was able to buy his way out or manipulated the justice system...That this is just another example for women to not come forward when sexually assaulted...In their eyes he is a sexual predator. In that hypothetical situation...does he deserve that? Is that fair? That an accusation can have that much power?

And we have a lawyer making far more money than any of his clients received and has another feather in his cap for his next political Office campaign...

On the opposite side...suppose he is completely guilty...and he settles...Many will say that he just settled to get the situation over and done with, or that it was cheaper to settle than to fight...There will be people that won't accept the possibility of guilt. That doesn't seem fair to me either...

And we still have a lawyer making far more money than any of his clients received and has another feather in his cap for his next political Office campaign...

The truth, is usually somewhere in the middle...which is why I am not making any absolutes without more info.

The one fact that cannot be denied. The ONLY winner that will come from this entire situation "regardless of result".....is Buzbee.

Let me help you out Pit....You are not Henry Fonda in this movie.

I'm glad the other attorney doesn't make millions defending his famous client list. Win or lose.

The other attorney (Hardin) didn't instigate this situation, he was brought in after the fact. Yes, he will get paid. Are you suggesting he shouldn't? And are you suggesting that Hardin has nothing to lose? If so, you certainly haven't thought anything out.

If Hardin wins...outside of his fees...which he did not solicit for...what will he have gained? He would be the guy who got a sexual predator off the hook on your eyes and many others...

If he loses...outside of his fees...which he did not solicit for...what will he have gained? I am sure high profile clients are looking for lawyers who lose cases....

No....Buzbee is the only person with absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain in this situation...Not his clients...not Watson...Not Hardin....Only Buzbee...Think about that.

So it's in his favor from any aspect to lose? Even from a political standpoint which seems to be your only assertion, and even that is an assertion at best, it makes no difference if he loses? That doesn't make any sense. And what political office is he currently running for again? Or is this only a guess into the future?

Hardin has handled the cases of many celebrity athletes as well as famous lawsuits that do not involve such athletes. Are you saying that defending Adrien Peterson was some strong case for him to take? He's 80 years old. Exactly how much longer do you think he has to practice law? So at this point in his life, exactly what does he have to lose again? Nobody drug Hardin into this case. He is a successful attorney who can pick and choose his clients. He chose to be "brought in". And yes, accepting the case does mean he chose to get himself involved in the situation.

Your premise seems to be based in the fact that one attorney who will be paid no matter what, and quite handsomely I might add, has nothing to gain. And the one who has to win in order to get paid has some sort of advantage here. No if Buzbee loses there will be people such as yourself using that as an even further attack on an attorney who has never been brought up before the bar in his entire career of any wrongdoing.

Yes, there's nothing to be gained by Hardin who will get paid a huge sum of money no matter the outcome of the lawsuits. Just read that last sentence and then continue to say I'm the one who hasn't thought anything out.

Everyone facing a criminal charges or a civil lawsuit deserves a defense. Their attorney's also deserve to be paid for their services. That also applies to those who are victims that deserve to have legal representation whose attorneys also deserve to be paid. It seems you think one attorney has a sinister motive and the other is some shining beacon of the legal system. Even though he is the only attorney who gets paid win or lose.

You calling anybody self-righteous is comedy gold.

Maybe you should have followed the conversation before replying.

We're just a couple shmucks on a message board. Ray Lewis has a statue outside the stadium.

I would guess this article has been posted on this site 79 times in the past several weeks.

I followed it just fine. My comment is applicable to you in general, though.

Pit....what part of 97% of civil cases are settled do you not understand? You have been so high on the numbers (22) But when it doesn't fit your narrative you ignore it. Buzbee is getting paid. And even if by some outlandish chance he loses.....he still gets to take the high road stating that he fought for women's rights against a corrupt law process(regardless of any truth to the statement)...And that is more important and more powerful to him than the money.

You talk about my premise...what about yours?? You seem to think Buzbee is some white knight coming to the rescue of fair damsels in distress....The guy has been an ambulance chaser his entire career and cashed in on being part of a slam dunk case against BP. How much did he make off of that compared to everyone else???( hint: it was 100's of MILLIONS) Just because he hasn't been brought up before the bar does not mean he isn't a scumbag. It doesn't mean he is on the up and up. It just means he hasn't been brought up before the bar....That is not a measure of a persons character.

There are much stronger motivations for Buzbee to take on this case than "doing what's right and providing representation for a victim". That is reality...that is sad....but it is reality....I will say it one more time...97% of cases settle(nothing saying about who actually wins the other 3%)...That is the business that Buzbee is in...where 97% of the time...all he has to do is make an accusation and he gets paid(in case you didn't know corporate and personal injury lawyers make FAR MORE on average than defense lawyers...not that Hardin isn't going to be paid well...). It does not matter if the person he accuses is guilty or not...accusation...Buzbee is paid. The guy has HUGE political aspirations...(In my book, that right there is a reason to be wary of him) There are far more reasons to not trust Buzbee than Hardin(not saying he is a boy scout either). Buzbee is a predator not the protector...he has to be in his profession...Based on his comments, his actions, the way he deals with people (read up...there is plenty out there)...He is a scumbag....And that is BEFORE I make any suppositions on his motivations for this case...

Well yeah...you have a point there...

brutal truths

(reposted from Tailgate forum)

Sorry, I haven't read the conversation, just wanted to make a point.

During the owner's meetings it was reported that the league was really angry about the Browns/Watson contract being backloaded to allow him to not suffer financially if he is suspended THIS year. By kicking the can down the road, the league defeats that move. If they suspend him in a future season, it will cost him more than if they had gone with a standard contract.

I hear you.
I too have mentioned the asterisk.
I've been a fan since the Jim Brown/Frank Ryan years, and I never felt conflicted about following the team until now. I can already see myself watching the Browns hoist a Lombardi, while saying, "yeah, but..."

I hate the stink this has brought to 76 Groza. Can't help it. It goes along with my line about Our Team: "They never make it easy for their fans..."


.02

I'm still taking a wait and see approach. But I absolutely think this will end bad for Cleveland, no matter what happens with DW's lawsuits. His innocence would need to be proven for any of his victories to not be tainted, for some fans. The guy didn't play at all last year. I could see a scenario where he is not suspended early in the season, comes in and doesn't shine for whatever reason for about 5 games. Those would be very turbulent weeks for some of us. Especially if the women and their lawyers keep this front and center during the season. Hell, just fan doubts could become a problem for the Browns. So, I don't see how this ends well for us. But they will have plenty of fans and new fans if we start being serious contenders, so how we feel is probably already in the calculus.

This whole thing feels like I'm in fan limbo right now too. I mean I want to like him, but there are too many question marks for that to be possible. This is the kind of slime a Super Bowl can't wash away. Something needs to break before the season to sway me, or this season is going to suck, one way or the other. This is how they make us feel after 50 years of fandom? And I thought they knew something we didn't to be honest, but they've all gone silent, more or less. What are we supposed to do with that? I know I damn sure don't want to be feeling like this OR WORSE on game days.

Both of you are touching on something that probably will be become more visible later down the road.

How many Browns supporters will walking around the city or in the stadium and with pride wearing a Browns replica with Watson’s name on their back after listening and reading about what was going on between these 22 women and Deshaun Watson?

Seeing pictures and videos with witnesses who’re crying. Witnesses who paint a totally different picture then the FO and what the local Browns media tries to feed us with. Sexual uncomfortable details from women at the same age or younger then your daughter, girlfriend or wife.

When that day come it certainly will test a lot of peoples moral integrity.

How will female supporters, fathers and mothers of young women react when the stadium announce his name?
How will it be to walk around outside the stadium and meet vocal women’s organizations with members that also been victims of abuse and violence, seeing banners and being asked to wear protesting stickers?

I can’t predict others reaction but I do know how I would feel.

To hear GM Andrew Berry try to defend his organizations decisions, whatever the outcome of the verdicts, to something positive will probably test a lot of supporters loyalty.

Support the Browns? Yes. 100%.
Cheering with Watson? Probably half hearted or in silence.
Wearing a Watson replica? Future will tell but it will probably not be seen on my back.

There's an older generation of Browns fans that grew up watching, cheering and galvanized themselves as Browns fans during the Jim Brown era and this fandom was passed down by their fathers as well. Jim Brown, brutalized, raped (some were minors) and repeatedly beat women (never found guilty!). To this day, it's excused as a "different time."

Jim Brown has a statue outside the stadium.

In the end, winning cures all...for better or worse.

Good, bad or indifferent....once Watson starts winning, the majority will not care about the civil suits and they'll be afterthought.

Always conflict, but players are not angels, we often never hear the truth.

NFL to me is entertainment/business. I surely don't interview and vet every person I interact with. And I surely cannot concern myself with someone that I don't even know, much less is just a small part of a larger organization. The Browns are my team and that team has good and bad people within it. So be it, it's the Team and what it is I root for, not the individual players who come and go every few years.

Comparing previous eras to today with regard to news coverage, news media, social media, instant 'everything' really does not prove or add weight to one side of the argument or the other. If anything it is that we have to do better. That famous athletes got away with anything/everything "back in the day" - means that they should not get away with "anything" today.

Regards the masses accepting and moving on once the Browns (probably) start winning with Watson is a statement you've mentioned before. And I tend to agree with it. But I think if anything that makes it even more important for those that care, those that want to know the truth, to pay attention and be vocal about it. * You wrote those statements as if the cases against DW will no longer matter when most fans chose to move on/forget or stop caring ... A little over a month ago, Russia invaded Ukraine and the entire country cared. An entire country was outraged and moved for the plight of the Ukraines. Now - a bit like Watson when he starts winning - most of the country has moved on. Despite daily war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, many/most people are losing interest. Their capacity to maintain interest and focus has gone or dwindling. By your repeated rationale - somehow that would mean it doesn't matter that women and children are being targeted in Ukraine or that War atrocities .... I disagree. And if most fans want to conveniently move on from DW issues if he wins, even if there are still civil cases and many individuals swearing under oath that there was wrong doing when they met with DW - then I think many will still be conflicted and still vocal.

That's not true. There are accusations. Accusations are not facts. Some facts are out there (mostly ones selectively released by the prosecuting lawyer), but much is not. The real picture is slowly coming into focus... it's nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you're saying.

No. And they still wheel Jim Brown out to standing ovations and to talk to the team whenever they can.

I've never forgotten the things that Jim Brown, Big Ben and Kobe were accused of.

More specifically, his induction into the Ring of Honor came WELL after all that stuff.

Just saying.

Not everybody supports the Cleveland Brown. National media make money out of controversy. This is a perfect case to rally around and discuss morality and consequences. Different activist organizations has political agendas, they don't care about the NFL. Supporters from other NFL teams will represent a rainbow of opinions about what's right or wrong and they don't care about Watson or the Browns.

You have Twitter and TikTok and the cancel culture. (who I dislike with passion)

This is 2022 and i'm not sure wins cure everything.

In today's climate wrong doings is easier to highlight and create opinion against then ever before.
Remember. Not even the Browns supporters are united in this dilemma, then imagine the rest of the society.

No they are not, you are parroting untruths, and please eo keep the politics out of this discussion.

If he wins. Watson claims he isn't going to settle. You do understand that most people settle before it comes to national attention, right? Now that it's out in the public domain there is less motivation to settle.


You act as if losing 22 cases is good on your resume. I'm not sure you actually hear yourself. And since you mentioned it being a good point for him if he gets back into politics? You do realize he will have an opponent, and will need votes, right? Can you imagine his opponent saying this or using it in a campaign ad?

22 victims of sexual abuse depended on Buzbee for justice. He failed them all. What makes you think he can be successful for you?

Yeah, I'm sure that losing 22 cases to defend these women will convince future clients they should turn to him to represent them in such a lawsuit. I'm sure his failure to win any of these suits will instill confidence in the voters he can accomplish what he claims he will in his campaign. Yeah, that makes sense.


My position is victims deserve a legal representation. The same as defendants do. My claim isn't good attorney verses scum bag attorney. My position is that both attorney's simply have a job to do. I'm not the one here trying to portray one side as seedy or scummy That's your position. You make the claim that Buzbee has been an ambulance chaser all of his life and then claim he can successfully take on one of the biggest corporations with unmatched resources and attorney's to represent them. You just spin it to make that sound scummy.


One thing for sure sitting here on a message board making wild accusations about him isn't a measure of his character. And as for your "hint"? The actual settlement in that BP lawsuit totaled 100 million dollars.

Jury awards $100 mln verdict against BP in Texas case

https://www.reuters.com/article/bp-...t-bp-in-texas-case-idUSN1824817020091219

So no, you are just throwing out random numbers with no basis in fact. The entire settlement was 100 million. So can you explain how Buzbee made "( hint: it was 100's of MILLIONS)"? This should be interesting.....

And let me give you a hint. The winners of that suit split their part of the settlement 10 ways. Anything Buzbee made that's over 10% would mean he received more money than any of the victims. So of course he made more money than any single one of the victims. It doesn't look quite so devious when you use math.


So your suggestion is he must be a scum bag because he gets paid "more"?


So you think when his opponent points out he just lost 22 lawsuits in a row that's a strong selling point for him as a political candidate? Please tell me you're not serious.


That's strictly your opinion which is based on, at least when breaking down the content of this post, BS. It seems as though any attorney that represents victims in lawsuits must all be scum bags to you by your description. I guess that means there are no victims and none of them deserve representation. Because you know, 97% of the time there's a settlement, right?

And after actually learning about Jim Brown's actions against women, I will never view him the same way. You can only deal with the situations you know about. Things like that were not publicized back in the day and we didn't have access to events the way we do now. I certainly make it known to anyone I discuss Jim Brown with about not only Jim Brown the player, but Jim Brown the person. And the way I address it is with brutal honesty. It's not pretty.

I'll be here all week. Be sure and tip your waitress and don't forget to order the veal.

I'm looking on the upside: I've got my autumn Sundays back. No longer do I need to block out half of an entire day once a week. I can follow them casually and not care about making sure I never miss a game. If they make it to the playoffs or the Super Bowl, I can say "Good for them" like I would any other team I'm not invested in (which is all 31 others). There won't be a "WooHoo!, WE won it all!", because Yes, there WILL be an asterisk there. Sadly, I think the Cavs' lone championship will be more meaningful - and I dislike nearly everything about basketball and LeBron. The Tribe doesn't exist anymore, so that sport is dead to me, too.... Life Simplified.