And the Baker bashing continues. Look it common sense when a partner wants you gone you will go on the defensive. The Browns were the ones who told Baker they were moving forward. DW actually said no to the Brown's advances and all are shocked and amazed that Baker doesn't kiss their hand - like anyone would he went into screw you mode. Baker in no way is a bust. All this crapolla about if he was good he would be signed already. Sit back and just "THINK" its at the point when most teams are at their bottom cap dollars..and now there is Baker if traded you have to pick up the 18+milliion dollars most of which is guaranteed. If a bust I ask you, why was he given a 18+ million dollar extension? Some you with this Baker hate is just silly.
So teams are waiting for the Browns to "RELEASE" Baker. It has been shown already by OBJ if you Squeak the loudest you will get released. In Baker's case its guaranteed. Time to move on have an opinion that is ok but this constant bashing I think is tasteless. The Browns clearly have move on. I think the move was unwise not in DW's prowess as a QB but he has some serious baggage that could damage this team NOT BAKER - saying he is a bust does not make it so. The kid will have a good career - I just hope he doesn't go with the Steelers.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I didn't have much problem with what Mayfield had to say. He came off a little bit whiny, but overall seemed like a good guy who's motivated to prove his detractors wrong. I do have a problem with choosing this group of frat-boy slappies in this venue to make his case. The host kept trying to be this zen master waxing all magical/mysical about God-knows-what. It was like Oprah meets Dude Perfect.
IMO, Baker should have showed up on a mainstream show like Dan Patrick, Jim Rome, or even his nemesis Colin Cowherd. He should have dressed in big boy clothes, NOT nut-hugger shorts, and tried to conduct his first interview with a prospective new team. Bloodied but unbowed, humbled but still determined to be better from it. Instead he chose a dormitory bull session that has the people who put out the grown-up in the QB room narrative saying "See?".
Did you watch the whole thing? Did you watch the McGuinest & Pioli takes? Interested to know what the context was on the short clips they played.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Wasn't it also reported that he would consider coming back next season? The only difference between last season and this upcoming season is that Baker is gone.
I've read/heard that. From reputable sources? I don't know. He just had another surgery, which, from what I read, would cause him to miss a chunk.
I wouldn't want him here anyway. Play like a fool while here, after admitting you didn't want to be here? (cleveland). Nah, we've enough drama right now. He can take his second operation knee and go go somewhere else.
I remembered reading this post last night and wanted to respond.
OBJ has not expressed or commented anywhere that he would consider coming back to the Browns. The only reaction was a pair of eyes tweeted next to the news Browns signed Watson. Nothing more.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Wasn't it also reported that he would consider coming back next season? The only difference between last season and this upcoming season is that Baker is gone.
I've read/heard that. From reputable sources? I don't know. He just had another surgery, which, from what I read, would cause him to miss a chunk.
I wouldn't want him here anyway. Play like a fool while here, after admitting you didn't want to be here? (cleveland). Nah, we've enough drama right now. He can take his second operation knee and go go somewhere else.
I remembered reading this post last night and wanted to respond.
OBJ has not expressed or commented anywhere that he would consider coming back to the Browns. The only reaction was a pair of eyes tweeted next to the news Browns signed Watson. Nothing more.
It was 👀 when someone asked if he would go back to Cleveland.
Stop picking on Vers! You know, like he claims me, mgh and purp do. You know when he thinks that, his feelings get hurt, you get put on his list and he starts sounding like Baker.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
When you make a public statement claiming a QB is your guy to only turn around and replace him, that isn't something between a player and a FO alone. At the point you make such a statement public, it's out there for everyone to see. That's what happened.
This kind of thing happens a lot in professional sports. When an owner comes out and says that a coach or GM has nothing to worry about, it is time for them to start worrying.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
When you make a public statement claiming a QB is your guy to only turn around and replace him, that isn't something between a player and a FO alone. At the point you make such a statement public, it's out there for everyone to see. That's what happened.
This kind of thing happens a lot in professional sports. When an owner comes out and says that a coach or GM has nothing to worry about, it is time for them to start worrying.
Yet many of the same posters who say that claim that when the Browns claim they carefully vetted their new QB their word is golden. It seems they wish to have it both ways. My point is that as a person I can easily see why someone would take it more personal when they make a public statement about you and do the opposite. Sure it's not the way everyone would address it and if you look further in that post you will see that I didn't approve of the way he handled it. But to me there's a big difference in saying I would have handled it differently and having the ability to understand how a person in Baker's position would have felt. It's simply that often times its best if you don't make such public responses based on your emotions when it can have a negative impact on your future employment. This may be one such example.
I find it very odd what some seem to make a big deal out of while trying to trivialize and minimize much bigger issues. As we can easily see, if one QB can get a record contract with so much hanging over his head and demanding a trade because he didn't to pick his own HC, trying to imply a statement like this is going to have a huge negative impact on Baker's career is nothing more than hot air by those who wish to crucify him.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I didn't have much problem with what Mayfield had to say. He came off a little bit whiny, but overall seemed like a good guy who's motivated to prove his detractors wrong. I do have a problem with choosing this group of frat-boy slappies in this venue to make his case. The host kept trying to be this zen master waxing all magical/mysical about God-knows-what. It was like Oprah meets Dude Perfect.
IMO, Baker should have showed up on a mainstream show like Dan Patrick, Jim Rome, or even his nemesis Colin Cowherd. He should have dressed in big boy clothes, NOT nut-hugger shorts, and tried to conduct his first interview with a prospective new team. Bloodied but unbowed, humbled but still determined to be better from it. Instead he chose a dormitory bull session that has the people who put out the grown-up in the QB room narrative saying "See?".
Did you watch the whole thing? Did you watch the McGuinest & Pioli takes? Interested to know what the context was on the short clips they played.
I watched an hour and then I couldn't take anymore bro-ness, especially interviewer-bro.
A lot of hand wringing over Baker's value and if the Browns overplayed their hand.
Who cares. The Browns have a legit top QB with no football question marks. They LEGIT (all caps) are super bowl contenders.
Can't wait for off season programs and training camp. For the first time in awhile I am hopeful without an unease that usually accompanied my excitement.
A YouTube video was posted that addressed some of Baker's statements from his podcast. The commentators were both in the NFL for a long time. Some can't address the points made in the video and resort to attacking the poster who made the video public. But, they are not the ones w/the agenda.
A lot of hand wringing over Baker's value and if the Browns overplayed their hand.
Who cares. The Browns have a legit top QB with no football question marks. They LEGIT (all caps) are super bowl contenders.
Can't wait for off season programs and training camp. For the first time in awhile I am hopeful without an unease that usually accompanied my excitement.
I think that the Browns could have handled things better, but Baker has to take some accountability for his comments to the media about moving on and the crap he said in the podcast. Saying things like some players don't want to win and are only in it for the money is so dumb. I don't think teams want his drama and they don't think he is a very good qb.
Rish, I had actually given up hope of the Browns being a Super Bowl contender after I saw how much some of the AFC QBs progressed and how other good ones were brought into the conference. I thought it was imperative to have a stud qb to make it through the rigors of the loaded AFC. I'm not saying we are going to the Super Bowl, but we now have a shot at it because we have a stud QB!
I didn't have much problem with what Mayfield had to say. He came off a little bit whiny, but overall seemed like a good guy who's motivated to prove his detractors wrong. I do have a problem with choosing this group of frat-boy slappies in this venue to make his case. The host kept trying to be this zen master waxing all magical/mysical about God-knows-what. It was like Oprah meets Dude Perfect.
IMO, Baker should have showed up on a mainstream show like Dan Patrick, Jim Rome, or even his nemesis Colin Cowherd. He should have dressed in big boy clothes, NOT nut-hugger shorts, and tried to conduct his first interview with a prospective new team. Bloodied but unbowed, humbled but still determined to be better from it. Instead he chose a dormitory bull session that has the people who put out the grown-up in the QB room narrative saying "See?".
A lot of hand wringing over Baker's value and if the Browns overplayed their hand.
Who cares. The Browns have a legit top QB with no football question marks. They LEGIT (all caps) are super bowl contenders.
Can't wait for off season programs and training camp. For the first time in awhile I am hopeful without an unease that usually accompanied my excitement.
I'm going to believe this when I see it ... same as this year (last season) ... been bitten too many times. I'm sort of preparing myself for a long ban that will be a new precedent and contrary to what we have seen with other players. I'm preparing myself for DW not to be a cold/bad weather QB. On paper and based on the eye test - he should be a top 5 QB. Maybe top 3. But even if I am not expecting the worst now that he's a Brown, I am sort of preparing myself for things to somehow go sideways.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Probably the youtube video you mentioned trying to show that selective comments taken from an hour and a half video by two former players who now depend on their media careers for success are giving an accurate depiction of the truth with no media sensationalism.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The video is on page 3. They showed actual footage from Baker's podcast. They commented on Baker's comment. I can't believe anyone believe that Baker is making a wise career move by trashing other players, his coaches, and the fans. But again.......I am not criticizing anyone who has an alternative opinion and thinks that those things are going to benefit him. We are all entitled to our opinions.
I guess you didn't actually read my posts. I said it was a bad move on his part. And I knew where the video was and watched it. I also watched the complete original video in its entirety for further context. As I said, you can take selective quotes out of it and paint the picture you want when not seeing it in its entirety.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I wonder if trading Baker to the Panthers would become more viable if we took on Darnold’s contract. Baker for Darnold and a pick. Then pay someone else to either take Darnold’s contract or pay down some of it to move him for a late round pick.
Excuse for not having posted earlier but there seems to be enough Posters typing.
The reason why nobody has traded for Mayfield is If Mayfield performs like his 12 win year. he will demand a contract north of Mahomes and deshaun. No gm will knowingly go into that situation
I wonder if trading Baker to the Panthers would become more viable if we took on Darnold’s contract. Baker for Darnold and a pick. Then pay someone else to either take Darnold’s contract or pay down some of it to move him for a late round pick.
Panthers aren't a very good team - I think Rhule is going to be done after this year. Feel like it'd be a bad situation for Baker... but then again maybe he'd get a ton of garbage time yards and plays?
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I really don't want to do this, but using the word "agenda" has been a long-time tactic of dismissing what another poster has to say. Everyone has an agenda unless they are a complete simpleton. However, the discussion should center around who has a worthy agenda and whom does not. For example, I can point to some things that are pretty hard to dispute.
--Did Baker receive the contract extension he desired last year after his "great 9-game stretch?" --Did the Browns go after another QB and decide to not bring Baker back? --Did Baker not say it was best for both parties to move on? --Did Baker say he wanted to go to Indy and did the Colts actually trade for Matt Ryan who is way older and probably way more expensive? --Did the Texans accept Baker in the trade for Watson? --Were other QBs such as Goff and Lock not part of big trades for QBs? --Has Baker been traded to anyone? --Are there reports out there that Baker lost the locker room? --Did Baker work w/a QB coach during the previous off-seasons? --Has Baker not thrown more interceptions than any other qb since 2018? --Was Baker ranked 31st in QBR in one-score games in the 4th quarter since 2018? --Did Baker rank last in 4th quarter QBR last season? --Was Baker ranked 30th, only ahead of two rookies on terrible teams, in Expected Completion rate? --Did Baker talk about how many head coaches and offensive coordinators he has had? --Did Baker say that some players don't care about winning and instead are only worried about their retirement fund? --Was the video I posted by a former GM and a HOF caliber player not accurate in what they addressed? --Has Baker ran his mouth over and over on social media? --Has Baker's wife trashed the Brown's receivers, questioned the toughness of other players, and called Brown's fans front-runners and idiots?
I don't know........but, when a poster comes out w/a statement like "the agenda continues" w/out any context to prove that Pioli and McGinnest are liars and dubbed Baker's responses, I think the word agenda applies more to that particular poster and those who agree w/him. Have a nice life, Daman.
Its funny how the pro-Baker crowd thinks Baker should be immune from bashing or Criticism. It also funny how some posters had absolute meltdowns when the Watson Trade was announced. They acted like the Browns had a SB contending team With Baker and now their hopes were dashed. He simply is a number 1 overall pick that got outplayed by other QBs drafted In.his class and he failed to get the Browns to any kind of title game in 4-yrs I mean how much time were the Browns supposed to give him?
I wonder if trading Baker to the Panthers would become more viable if we took on Darnold’s contract. Baker for Darnold and a pick. Then pay someone else to either take Darnold’s contract or pay down some of it to move him for a late round pick.
Panthers aren't a very good team - I think Rhule is going to be done after this year. Feel like it'd be a bad situation for Baker... but then again maybe he'd get a ton of garbage time yards and plays?
At this point we shouldn't worry about what would be good for Baker. I doubt he is worried about what would be a good situation for the Browns or us fans.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I'm not worried for Baker at all. He's getting $18m regardless and as I've said multiple times no one cares about his feelings. I will be interested where he goes, whether he starts and how well he plays. I think many will.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I think it's vastly premature to say the Browns are "LEGIT " Super Bowl contenders with the addition of Watson. This statement would be highly dependent on what a Super Bowl contender consists of in the eye of the beholder. So, what are the expectations and goals for a Watson led Cleveland Browns "LEGIT" Super Bowl Contender?
1. The thought process is that the Browns have significantly upgraded the QB position. The Browns have added a top 3 QB (as stated on this forum) and the expectations are now that Watson can carry the team where a Mayfield could not. Considering such a huge upgrade combined with 230M guaranteed, anything less than a 3-game improvement would be considered a failure - Watson's expectation level should be a minimum of 11 wins.
2. Excuses are moot now that the Browns have a top 3 QB, Baker's #1 WR only played 13 out of 35 games in 2-years so if Cooper goes down it shouldn't matter. If Conklin misses 11 games in 2022 Watson is still expected to win. If Wills misses 4-games Watson should still win. Hunt missing 9-games and Chubb missing 3-games should have no bearing on the win expectation level. In reality, if Watson is dealt the exact same hand, him being such an upgrade should bear a minimum of 3 additional wins. If all play uninjured, wouldn't a 5-game improvement be the expectation? Afterall, playing as an injured QB combined with all the other issues as listed above, Baker has taken all the blame for the Browns failures in 2021 forcing the team to upgrade the position for 230M. Shouldn't the expectation level be significantly higher given the same circumstances for Watson a top 3 QB? 11 wins should be the minimum bar no matter what happens up to an including Watson missing 3 games or playing while injured.
3. If the Browns don't add another single player from FA to the offense, the offense is already as good if not better than the 2021 team that was fielded on opening day 2021. The 2021 team was expected to be a Super Bowl contender, with the team being improved, how high is that minimum bar? With a 230M investment in the QB upgrade, anything less than the AFC Championship game should be considered a failure.
4. Though not controlled by Watson, fielding at least an equal defense to what the Browns did in 2021 shouldn't have an effect on Watson's expectations. That said, DE replacement or resigning of Clowney needs to be a priority. At defensive interior, the Browns were the worst graded Defensive Interior in 2021 with Malik Jackson grading out at 44.4 and rated 98th out of 109 rated DT's. Malik McDowell graded out at 46.5 and rated 92nd out of 109 rated DT's. Jordan Elliott graded out at 41.6 and rated 102nd out of 109 rated DT's. At this point, it doesn't matter what player is inserted at DI - it would be an upgrade, so the defense is set once the Browns address the DE issue comparing 2021 to 2022.
Bottom line is compared to the opening offensive lineup in 2021, the Browns have been significantly upgraded without any more additions. Compared to 2021, once the DE situation is addressed, the Browns are equal to or better than the 2021 team with what they have for 2022. All things considered, Watson's 230M investment should carry an expectation of a minimum of 3 more wins without excuse and a march to the championship game. Anything less would have to be considered a failure.
One of the greatest QB's of all time, HOF Dan Marino, only made it to one Super Bowl which was in his 2nd year of a 17-year career. Getting to the Super Bowl is hard but the Browns have addressed the single reason they have not made it to the Super Bowl yet - a franchise QB. The expectations should be no less than the Super Bowl for 230M reasons since they've addressed that reason.
Expectations for the Browns season are opinions and each of us will have our own opinion. No doubt, the Baker fans are going to say are going to say the move to get Watson was a failure if the team doesn't win the Super Bowl. That is a given. However, folks who are more objective in their thinking will have different opinions. Those opinions will almost certainly vary from person to person.
My opinion is that Watson gives us a shot at competing for the Super Bowl because he is an elite qb who can elevate his team. I am not sure where I would rank him because that is such a subjective topic, but he is up there w/the best qbs in the league. I might start a thread about ranking the qbs. It could be interesting, but would probably get hijacked much like the AFC Contenders thread was.
Back to the Browns and the Super Bowl. Again, I think Watson is good enough to help us win the Super Bowl, but there are other factors. Right now, the AFC is freaking loaded and there are so many other great qbs in the conference. I think the Browns would have a much better chance if they were in the NFC. I do think the Browns had some losses. Unlike most, I think OBJ is an elite receiver. I am also a huge fan of Landry. Losing those two guys is disappointing. Tretter is a very good center and that is going to hurt because he was the brains of the OL and called out the blocking adjustments. I never understood why the Browns didn't bring Richardson back last year and the DT position is a concern. They lost out on acquiring a good Edge guy in FA and if Clowney isn't re-signed, that position could be a weakness. Some things need to be addressed because we got weaker at multiple spots. I'm surprised we haven't made at least a couple of more moves in FA, especially after we went all-in w/Watson.
On the positive side, we have two great RBs. I think our OL will still be among the best in the league. We now have an elite QB. The TE's are average, but that is okay. I'm not a huge Cooper fan because he kind of melts in the clutch, but he put up big numbers. Bringing Landry back would be huge. DPJ can contribute and this year's draft class is strong. We still have Myles on the D-line and hopefully can get Clowney back. I really like JOK and our LBere corps is adequate. We have three very good corners and that is so important. I'm not too high on the safeties, but they aren't terrible as a unit.
Overall, I think we need a few more pieces to get back to having the overall great roster that we had in two years ago, but we still have time to get that done. So yeah, I think the Browns have a chance to get to the Super Bowl and even win it. I did not feel that way before they made the trade for Watson.
The excuse-making will start in 3...2...oops...it's already started.
?
I think WSU is maybe highlighting that for many of the fans unhappy with Baker and who thought Baker was a bum/one dimensional/bad/way below average NFL QB - the only thing stopping the Browns last year was Baker. In discussions - his injury, the WR core, the injuries to the OL and RB's, the pedestrian TE play .... all were labeled as excuses and deflections from Baker's play. I think now that we have (apparently) got ourselves a bonafide top QB (we can debate if he's supposed to be top 10, top 5 or top 3)... are the same set of criteria in play - that no matter what happens at the other positions, the expectation is for Watson to put the team on his back and win no matter what?
You've already made a post stating you think that is the expectation. I think WSU and steve0255 are indicating that they expect that posters will shift their viewpoint now. WSU may be indicating that viewpoints seemingly have already shifted. The WR core was expected to be good enough for Baker - when people talked about our WR's being ranged by PFF very low, it was sort of dismissed by many as an excuse. Now we have DW some of those posters who were happy with the WR core last year are already indicating that even with Cooper (better than any WR we have had on the team for years) isn't enough and we need to continue to improve the WR position.
Just a guess but that's how I read it. I'm not sure how serious Steve or WSU are being, or whether they are highlighting some slight double standards being set. I don't really care. I want the WR to be improved - I would have for Baker and I do for DW. I want the play calling to highlight and play to DW's strengths, just like I would have for Baker. Essentially whoever is playing QB - put them and the team in the best position to succeed. No doubt there will be some disagreements along the way and no doubt some will make excuses for DW that they never extended to Baker.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I think it's simple. I will make excuses for Watson if I believe he is good and his play is being brought down by those around him. I did not believe Baker was good or that his play was being brought down by those around him. I believe Baker brought down the play of others. There is overwhelming evidence, both objective and subjective, of Baker being a bad QB. If the overwhelming evidence of this is still not convincing to some I can only file that away as an emotional investment in the guy that belies any kind of objectivity at all. I know you don't like the emotional label, but it's the only thing that applies when faced with the mountain of evidence compared to the molehill of contrary evidence (Baker had some good moments and stretches for sure).
This is not rocket science. Most people who watch football and can be objective can tell if someone is good and how they are impacting or being impacted by the play of those around them.
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