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Where the problem lies with some of you is trying to connect the dots that the reaction of the team signing watson is directly connected to some love or huge fandom of Baker. I can't speak for everyone else but I can speak for myself. For me the two factors are not connected. Trying to paint everyone with a broad brush that way is in no way correct.
The NFL is a business. Players will come and go. Trades happen and FO's are always trying to upgrade their team. There's no more important position on the field than QB. I don't think most of the posters on this board lack the ability to understand that. So when trying to deflect and proclaim that replacing Baker is the issue it's a convenient way to try and dismiss the reality of the situation. That reality is that some of us are not bothered by the fact that the Browns upgraded the QB position, it's the player they chose to make that upgrade with that's the issue.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The excuse-making will start in 3...2...oops...it's already started. ? He's trying to start another fight. Like constantly calling people out...calling people evil...calling people lairs...you mean THAT kind of fight?
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Where the problem lies with some of you is trying to connect the dots that the reaction of the team signing watson is directly connected to some love or huge fandom of Baker. I can't speak for everyone else but I can speak for myself. For me the two factors are not connected. Trying to paint everyone with a broad brush that way is in no way correct.
The NFL is a business. Players will come and go. Trades happen and FO's are always trying to upgrade their team. There's no more important position on the field than QB. I don't think most of the posters on this board lack the ability to understand that. So when trying to deflect and proclaim that replacing Baker is the issue it's a convenient way to try and dismiss the reality of the situation. That reality is that some of us are not bothered by the fact that the Browns upgraded the QB position, it's the player they chose to make that upgrade with that's the issue. Yep. I would edit that for my own opinion to say "now...what are we going to do to get better". Because last year's receiving options were awful...the top (3) aren't even on the team right now and the top (2) are still un-signed. Cooper should be a stud...I'm not comfortable with him being the only upgrade though.
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Here you go Rish: Underlined for your easy reading. This entire post could have been made this time last year as well. Expectations for the Browns season are opinions and each of us will have our own opinion. No doubt, the Baker fans are going to say are going to say the move to get Watson was a failure if the team doesn't win the Super Bowl. That is a given. However, folks who are more objective in their thinking will have different opinions. Those opinions will almost certainly vary from person to person.
My opinion is that Watson gives us a shot at competing for the Super Bowl because he is an elite qb who can elevate his team. I am not sure where I would rank him because that is such a subjective topic, but he is up there w/the best qbs in the league. I might start a thread about ranking the qbs. It could be interesting, but would probably get hijacked much like the AFC Contenders thread was.
Back to the Browns and the Super Bowl. Again, I think Watson is good enough to help us win the Super Bowl, but there are other factors. Right now, the AFC is freaking loaded and there are so many other great qbs in the conference. I think the Browns would have a much better chance if they were in the NFC. I do think the Browns had some losses. Unlike most, I think OBJ is an elite receiver. I am also a huge fan of Landry. Losing those two guys is disappointing. Tretter is a very good center and that is going to hurt because he was the brains of the OL and called out the blocking adjustments. I never understood why the Browns didn't bring Richardson back last year and the DT position is a concern. They lost out on acquiring a good Edge guy in FA and if Clowney isn't re-signed, that position could be a weakness. Some things need to be addressed because we got weaker at multiple spots. I'm surprised we haven't made at least a couple of more moves in FA, especially after we went all-in w/Watson.
On the positive side, we have two great RBs. I think our OL will still be among the best in the league. We now have an elite QB. The TE's are average, but that is okay. I'm not a huge Cooper fan because he kind of melts in the clutch, but he put up big numbers. Bringing Landry back would be huge. DPJ can contribute and this year's draft class is strong. We still have Myles on the D-line and hopefully can get Clowney back. I really like JOK and our LBere corps is adequate. We have three very good corners and that is so important. I'm not too high on the safeties, but they aren't terrible as a unit.
Overall, I think we need a few more pieces to get back to having the overall great roster that we had in two years ago, but we still have time to get that done. So yeah, I think the Browns have a chance to get to the Super Bowl and even win it. I did not feel that way before they made the trade for Watson.
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j/c:
This thread is actually a Baker thread. There are numerous Watson threads. There is also a thread about Super Bowl contenders and the Browns are considered in that thread. I am not going to get into a back-and-forth w/a poster who wants to fight to shift the focus away from Baker and into yet another personal confrontation.
I want to get back to Baker making the comments about how some players don't want to win and only play for their retirement fund and how he used having so many head coaches and offensive coordinators as an excuse. I can't fathom how anyone believes that his value will decrease due those types of things because other players and teams might be even more wary about bringing him in.
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I certainly do not disagree with you. As we can see some posters strongly consider the supporting cast of watson when he was with the Texans as a reason to consider his limited W's and playoff appearances. If they would do that across the board it might be nice.
In 2020 watson had Brandon Cooks, Will Fuller, Randal Cobb and Kenny Stills as his WR's.
They don't have anything even close to that on the Browns roster.
But I'm not actually worried that it will remain that way. Surely you don't make watson the "230 million dollar man" and not give him the weapons to produce with, right?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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[quote=Versatile Dog]j/c:
Once again...the Agenda-Man tries to tell everyone else what to post and what not to post. If it's a Baker thread, then why did you mention Watson (3x), OBJ, Landry, Tretter, the RBs, TEs and Richardson just a few posts up? So hypocritical that it's comedy.
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I certainly do not disagree with you. As we can see some posters strongly consider the supporting cast of watson when he was with the Texans as a reason to consider his limited W's and playoff appearances. If they would do that across the board it might be nice.
In 2020 watson had Brandon Cooks, Will Fuller, Randal Cobb and Kenny Stills as his WR's.
They don't have anything even close to that on the Browns roster.
But I'm not actually worried that it will remain that way. Surely you don't make watson the "230 million dollar man" and not give him the weapons to produce with, right? Absolutely...and I only care because I want to win. I was "over" Baker about 30 minutes after the trade for Watson was announced. But that doesn't mean I won't call out total BS about the guy when I read it. Others just can't get over their irrational hate for Baker.
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Not only the player but what the expectation is with him under center. It is clear and pointed out by many that the only reason for the Browns poor play in 2021 was Mayfield. The poor PFF ranking of the WR's was due to Baker. Only having your #1 WR for 13 of 35 games over 2-years was clearly Mayfield's fault. Not throwing to a receiver who was only available 37% of the time over 2-years and not 100% about 80% of the time he played makes Mayfield a crappy QB.
When you lay all that blame on one player while ignoring all the other issues, upgrading the position is basically saying that the Browns would have won last year if only Mayfield wasn't playing QB. Mayfield isn't playing QB for the Browns anymore and they have spent 230M to secure that upgrade. All things considered, if presented with the exact same 2021 circumstances, a Watson led Browns team is now guaranteed a playoff position with a very deep playoff run. Afterall, Watson has already been presented with an upgraded WR room - has a franchised tag TE - and a dedicated QB coach. Why wouldn't the expectation be no less than the playoffs with a deep run? Would Mayfield have been given the excuse of the AFC being freaking loaded, that there are so many great QB's in the conference, or that some things need to be addressed because we got weaker at multiple spots? None of these or what happened in 2021 has been acceptable for Baker Mayfield.
Even less should be acceptable for the #3 QB with a 230M guaranteed contract being given a better team than his predecessor had to play with in 2021. If the Browns were able to get to the 2nd round of the playoffs with a Baker Mayfield playing without his #1 WR then upgrading to the #3 QB, paying 230M guaranteed, and upgrading the offense should at a minimum be expected to take the team further - without question.
Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN the ROAD"
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In most cases I don't think it's a hate for Baker but there are certainly cases of it around here. For the most part I think it's more an issue of rabid fans that wish to move on. To move forward. I have seen it my entire life. Fans support and form opinions based strictly on the uniform a player is wearing. Once a player no longer wears that uniform or the team has moved on from them, suddenly that opinion changes.
Often times I think, at least in Baker's case, fans searched for reasons to support him more than they felt he was actually the QB to lead this team to a SB win. So I think what we're seeing now is more a reflection of how some of them felt all along but just didn't want to admit it to themselves. Then we do have fans that show great disdain for him and make reaches of epic proportions to paint him in the most negative light possible. So I see some of both. In other cases I see fans that never really supported him at all. It's a mixed bag at best.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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You are entitled to your opinion and I won't perform a character assassination like others in this forum resort to. I will just say that I did not put all the blame on Baker. Of course, there were contributing factors. I'm not ignorant. I just think he is a bottom tier qb. Unlike some of the things I have read on here, I don't think the scheme was terrible or the play calling was awful. I don't think the OL sucked. I don't even think the receivers were the worst in the league like some claim. I think Baker looked pretty good at the end of teh 2020 season when everything was absolutely perfect. Even w/that, I still saw the flaws in his game. The FO apparently did, too. They did not give him the big contract that Baker desired. And let's be real here........this board is not typical of how the rest of the NFL world view Baker. He was always the question mark. Many, many pundits repeatedly stated that the Browns had as good of--or better--roster than any team in the league.
I am not asking you to agree w/my takes. I refuse to criticize you for your takes. We can debate the topic like mature adults. Thus far, while I think you thoughts on Baker and the Browns are slanted, I respect that you do not resort to character attacks and name-calling like others love to do. So, I'll debate you if we can do so politely. Different takes are a good thing and I've never been one of those people that think everyone has to feel the same way or they are a terrible person.
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I understand what you're saying. But then does that also apply to those who have tried to lump everyone who opposes Watson coming to Cleveland meaning it's because they are somehow in love with Baker? Because that's a very stereotypical, broad brush portrayal that often times doesn't apply.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Like constantly calling people out...calling people evil...calling people lairs...you mean THAT kind of fight? I've tried not to respond to that little outburst... but seriously, how pathetic does someone need to be to call others 'evil' on a football forum when their misinformation and use of 'secret locker room sources' is challenged? And of course the thread needs to change direction now that people are talking about something of substance ... exactly par for the course. Get used to it. As for Baker and his "interview" - Bro-hugging or whatever you call that. I guess maybe I'll bring myself to watch it. But I guess we all need to pile on and call Baker an idiot for doing it to make some posters happy. No-one I know of defending him for doing it or what he said... But to be honest - if the two sound bites on that McGinest and Pioli clip are the worst of what he said (which let's face it they must be) - then it is not all that bad. I've already stated I think everything McGinest and Pioli said was fair and balanced and I think Baker is stupid for making any public comments about his feelings or his side of things ... no-one cares.
Last edited by mgh888; 04/16/22 01:22 PM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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You are entitled to your opinion and I won't perform a character assassination like others in this forum resort to. Are you for real? Do you mean like calling others "evil"? ...resort to character attacks and name-calling like others Versatile Dawg love to do. Different takes are a good thing and I've never been one of those people that think everyone has to feel the same way or they are a terrible person. 
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I don't think that everyone who opposes Watson signing here is trashing him and the Browns because of Baker. I have no problem w/anyone who would stop rooting for the Browns because they are disgusted by the charges levied against him. I'm not like some folks who think what team you root for is some sort of ceremonial obligation. I think it's fun to root for teams and have teams you despise. It's tribal and it's ingrained in our dna. However, I don't think it's important as to which team you love or hate. Hell, I married a woman who had season tix to the Steelers and I had them for the Browns. It's a game, not a moral compass.
I personally believe that the moral and criminal issues belong in a forum that isn't Pure Football. I like sports as an entertainment and use them to escape all the blabbering about religion, politics, morals, etc. However, it was decided that the rules of the forum would be changed in this particular circumstance. I've accepted that and rarely even open that thread. We all have free choice here. I don't have to read that thread if I don't want just like others don't have to read my posts if they think I am so "pathetic" and "nauseating." I do think these personal issues between posters should be handled in PMs, but I also think that folks resort to these character attacks not to debate w/the person they are disagreeing with, but instead, try to get others to gang-up on that "pathetic," "nauseating" person.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 04/16/22 01:43 PM. Reason: our, not are.
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I don't think that everyone who opposes Watson signing here is trashing him and the Browns because of Baker. Thanks for that clarification. That wasn't the impression i had until you just explained it. I also would say what one considers trashing to be is purely subjective. That's just another way of taking a subtle jab at those with a differing opinion. I personally believe that the moral and criminal issues belong in a forum that isn't Pure Football. I understand that there are posters who feel that way. I think where others disagree is that the distractions this will create, the implications a future suspension may create and all of the negative media attention this will create, and already has, will direrctly impact the Browns. As such it will have an impact on the "pure football" side of things However, it was decided that the rules of the forum would be changed in this particular circumstance. I have seen zero evidence that anyone "decided that the rules of this forum would be changed" to accommodate that content. I think it's simply a matter of interpretation of what some perceive belongs here and what they don't.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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j/c:
Can't read this article because I'd never pay for Cleveland.com content, but here you go anyways. Curious as to the "several" term used in the headline.
Tackles are tackles.
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J/C
I don't know if the Robby Anderson comment was so much about not wanting Baker as it was about wanting the Panthers to sign Kaepernick.
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J/C
I don't know if the Robby Anderson comment was so much about not wanting Baker as it was about wanting the Panthers to sign Kaepernick. It's funny how Kaepernick compared the NFL to slavery, but has continually tried to get back in.
"The Elf is killing the Curse"
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J/C
I don't know if the Robby Anderson comment was so much about not wanting Baker as it was about wanting the Panthers to sign Kaepernick. It's funny how Kaepernick compared the NFL to slavery, but has continually tried to get back in. He needs to continue to give the impression he wants in but is not allowed to continue to push the narrative that he is not allowed back in due to racism so he can make money elsewhere.
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I hate saying this because it sounds snarky, but yeah, Kap isn't really interested in returning to the league. Even Steven A. Smith said it was a publicity stunt. Kap is milking this to make more money and is using how much he "sacrificed." Dude is a fraud. Always has been. Most football people knew his future in the NFL was pretty much done even before he took the knee. Dude got benched for Blaine Gabbert. I remember a discussion on this board [pre-kneeling] about trading for Kap and I said "hell no, he sucks." He got rich duping America. Good for him.
I do think it is somewhat humorous that Baker vs Kap preference is now being debated. Not too long ago.......I read one poster who likes to shout at others a lot say that he couldn't compare any current NFL qb to Baker. He said even Brees wasn't an adequate comparison. He said the closest comparison was Joe Montana. I read other guys who said they wouldn't take any qb over Baker. Others said he was top 3 or top 5.
But yeah, you know.........I'm the one w/the agenda.
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"I like Baker" - I am Root from guardian of the Galaxy.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Carolina WR Robbie Anderson doubled down on him not wanting Baker to be the qb of the team. Check this out. Panthers.way on Instagram posted Rapoport's lean, and Panthers wide receiver Robby Anderson commented "Nooooo." That wasn't all, as the same Instagram account posted another picture saying Anderson doesn't want Mayfield to come to Carolina. Anderson again commented saying, "Facts."
Anderson probably doesn't need to worry, as the Panthers are not interested in trading for Mayfield, per ESPN's David Newton. Earlier this morning, I was watching Get Up and they were discussing Anderson's comments and how that is wild because of how a QB and WR are linked. It's not a LBer saying those things. Different points were being made and Dan Orlovsky was defending Baker. Kimberly Marting, who covered a lot of the Browns games, said there definitely was a problem w/Baker and the locker room. She said players wanted to keep OBJ and move on from Baker. I think word gets around and Baker's arrogant, selfish, abrasive behavior, and not taking accountability is catching up w/him. I'm sure his recent comments about some players not wanting to win and only caring about their retirement fund is not winning him any new admirers.
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Maybe they just wanted the commercials to stop? . . . .
Any truth to his comments? I am ready to move on.
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It's just the slant someone wishes to present by people who depend on controversy and shock value to get ratings.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Robbie Anderson is a nobody WR who cares what he thinks..lol
Does he know Baker or does he get his opinion from the HERD or is that TERD...
SO can't wait for this BASH BAKER Thread to just stop. Meanwhile he's making over 18 mil guaranteed....who are the dummies who gave that contract. The ones who know him best did.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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Robbie Anderson messing with another man's money? Nah...he's a truth-teller and a well-respected scout in the NFL. It's comedy.
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Denial too, is a remote location. One so well masked that many people deny having even heard of it, let alone having been trapped in it.~~~Liberty Hunter.
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Robbie Anderson is a pass dropper's pass dropper. I'm sure that Carolina is horribly concerned with what he thinks about just about anything.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You sir are no Liberty Hunter.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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GM reprimanded him and clearly wants Baker. 
Tackles are tackles.
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Carolina (Or Seattle), Give me a 3rd (Gives Us Three Thirds) and a 5th and take Bakers Salary , I'm Good 
Last edited by PastorMarc; 04/19/22 02:16 PM.
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Its funny how Baker is considered a franchise QB on this board but around the league
The opinion on him is evident. He is not considered a,franchise QB by any team.he at best is
A potential backup. Robby Anderson is a dime a dozen WR. But he ecboes a.common sentiment
Around the NFL concerning Mayfield.
Players in this day and age will publicly go on social media and will campaign and try to recruit
Available upper tier proven playmakers to join their team. Happens all the time
But Baker is the only player I know that has been told "no stay away"
WRs want no part of Mayfield. Its documented.
Baker is yesterdays 1st RD flop. He isnt the 1st and he wont be the last.
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I really don't see hardly anyone who has made the claim that Baker is a "franchise QB" and even that term itself is vague that means different things to different people.
And where did you come up with the idea that what Robby Anderson "ecboes a.common sentiment Around the NFL concerning Mayfield"?
Mayfield certainly isn't a top level QB in the NFL. He has shown he can be a winner and he has shown inconsistency. As far as QB play watson is a huge upgrade on the field. Results prove that Mayfield is a QB who can lead a team to the playoffs. What is not believed by many and certainly a sentiment that is shared by this FO, is that Mayfield isn't a QB who can lead your team to a SB victory. Trashing a QB who led this team to it's first playoff win since our return isn't exactly an enviable position to take.
I understand why this FO wanted to upgrade the QB position. They did so. But it's not because they saw Mayfield as hot garbage.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,625 Likes: 590 |
I think at the end of 2020 there were quite a few who were willing to say Baker was the Browns FQB. He finished the season in great form and was rated very highly over an extended period (9 games) by PFF as a top QB. In 2021 he played a good game vs Kansas City but lost - and then was hurt for the rest of the season. So there was a 10 game skid where Baker played really well - it included the 22-22 completions against the Bengals. I guess it comes down to which is the more likely of two scenarios:
1. The 10 game streak of games playing very well - top 5 QB grade by PFF - and the 22 completions in a row and nearly beating KC in the playoffs if not for a missed targeting call .... was a complete fluke and 2021 was the "real" Baker and the injury had little impact.
2. The 10 game streak indicates Baker's ceiling - he can be very good but then the injury happened and 2021 isn't much of an indication of how good Baker can be.
I'm not suggesting Baker is or will be a top 5 QB .... That just happens to be the PFF grade he got over that period of time. But I do believe he is an above average QB in the NFL and will probably give you the same or potentially a little better than the likes of Cousins, Carr, Jimmy G.
My biggest issue with Baker at the moment is the interview and public comments ... no-one cares about your feelings, or what you think/thought ... just get healthy, work hard and do your talking on the next team and opportunity you are given.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,967 Likes: 352
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,967 Likes: 352 |
The Panthers signed Baker's favorite WR. (Higgins) They are going to get him.
It's as logical a reason as any other floating around here.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 Likes: 234 |
The best argument for Carolina getting Baker is Sam Darnold, assuming they want to be competitive.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
The best argument for Carolina getting Baker is Sam Darnold, assuming they want to be competitive. If the Panthers traded for Baker they’d have $36 million committed to Baker and Darnold. We’d have to eat quite a bit of money for that move to take place. That’s why I say we trade Baker for Darnold and a pick then trade Darnold and a lesser pick into a team’s cap space.
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Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906 |
I really don't see hardly anyone who has made the claim that Baker is a "franchise QB" That is not even close to being true.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 Likes: 234
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 Likes: 234 |
Its pretty much understood that trading Mayfield will involve paying a significant part ($6-8M) of his 2022 salary. What they do with Darnold is their problem. If we end up having to keep Mayfield on the roster until someone needs him - and I believe they will - then I say do it.
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