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Pdawg #1939943 04/21/22 10:08 PM
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Watch this........it was a theme that repeated itself multiple times. Delpit is # 22.


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Yeah, that lunge was bad.


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Pdawg #1939981 04/22/22 08:03 AM
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jc...

When it comes to teaching defensive basics, such as tackling, Woods defense would rate a D.

Coaching is teaching and when I see players at the pro level whiffing on a tackle like in the video above...it comes back to coaching. The Browns defensive coaching staff has been horrid when it comes to teaching the basics, especially tackling.

I don't know how many times I watched our defensive players make an excellent move to avoid blockers and have a clear shot at sacking the QB..only to watch the Browns miss the tackle and turning what should have been a big play for the Browns defense..ends up being a big play for the opponents offense.

IMO, improving the Browns defense should begin with higher priority and focus on teaching defensive basics.




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Quincy reminds me so much of one of my best friends who passed away.

Not how he looks but his voice and his football takes. My friend Bruce and I watched the Browns together for over thirty years. We talked on the phone like 5 times a week. We chewed on football constantly. When Quincy brings guys on his youtube cast from the other North teams. I really enjoy that. It reminds me so much about how we used to talk. Quincy loves the game and he brings that enthusiasm.



This is a good take by Q on the Browns defense.

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bonefish #1940027 04/22/22 12:42 PM
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Good video. I would add that Denzel Ward comes off as really nice guy w/a good personality.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Back to topic after another Pit-crap fest.

Still throwing a tantrum I see. Lighten up and rent a sense of humor. It was a joke.

Or is "Vers rule #52" that we aren't allowed to have a sense of humor in Pure Football now that you're back?

rofl


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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PitDAWG #1940452 04/24/22 08:49 PM
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j/c:

I am not very knowledgeable about the 4-2-5. I never had to deal w/it when I was coaching. I do understand the main coverages in running a 4-2-5 and have spoke about them and provided some articles. I decided to come back to this thread and add more because I was speaking w/a very nice poster in a PM the other day and he remarked about me saying other posters finding it boring to discuss such things and that is why I was posting a link. He told me that while he and others might not comment on such topics, they still like reading them and learning. I've had similar discussions in PMs w/other posters n the past and it's probably the main reason I came back. There really are a lot of good people on here.

I've read some more information on the 4-2-5 and I have applied my background information of similar defenses and came up w/a few takeaways. I'm not positive that I am 100% correct in my deductions, but this post is dedicated to those who like to read new information and enhance their knowledge of the game. I think it's not even important to agree on things. What IS important is to consider new information, make some connections on things you have experienced, and then consider altering your opinions or accepting/objecting to the new information.

I think the 4-2-5 was mostly first used in the college game. I also believe that it was designed to stop the Spread offenses in college. I think Seattle was one of the first teams to use it in the NFL and that would make sense because of Pete Carrol's time in college football. Obviously, the idea is to get into nickel packages that can defend Spread offenses that employ multiple receivers. A nice off-shoot of this is the fact that you are getting better athletes on the field.

Coverage wise, I think that you want to play more Cover 3 on run/pass downs such as first down or 2nd and medium. Obviously, teams are going to mix coverages up. They will utilize Cover 2, and in recent years, teams have been playing a mixture of coverages. For example, one side might be in Cover 4 and the other in another coverage. All kinds of options. But, I'm trying to keep it simple here. We do play some Cover 2 from what I have seen, but Cover 3 and Quarters are the our bread in butter.

Let me ask you a question: I'll answer it, but in your head, make a guess as to when we should employ Cover 3 or Quarters? Again, Cover 3 has two corners who line up on outside receivers and are mostly responsible for coverage outside the hashes. The two safeties [I will use the terms Free safeties and Strong Safeties to keep it simple, even though this is very fluid. The FS typically lines up deep in alignment w/the QB and Center. That changes if you are rolling coverages to stop a premier WR. The SS will line up closer to the LOS and often be responsible for the flat, RBs coming out of the backfield, or the TE. The remaining nickel guy can be placed in various spots and that changes on whether you have 3 corners or 3 safeties on the field. I think the easiest one for us all to understand is putting a 3rd corner on a slot WR.

Quarters, as I addressed in a previous post has 4 DBs lined up horizontally very close to the LOS. There is another DB lined up deeper, and he is typically more of a FS type.

Here is the question: Which coverage would you run on first and ten, second and medium, and maybe on 3rd and short? And which coverage would you employ on obvious passing downs?

Okay, here is my answer. I run Cover 3 when I think there is a better chance of the O either running or passing. I run Quarters in passing downs and especially [this is very important] when I want to run a blitz w/my secondary guys. Think about all the times we saw guys like Hill blitz the qb. That was almost always from Quarters. I wish I had the ability to provide videos as to what I am speaking about. It really helps to add a visual to the spoken word. Sorry.

I was going to go on, but this post is long. If the thread stays on track, I will come back and identify some of the weaknesses or concerns that I have w/the 4-2-5. I am not going to take time to preview this post, so there are probably a ton of grammatical and incorrect words in this post. Please accept my apologies. Feel free to ask questions. This is not a D I know much about, but I have a football mind.

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A couple of concerns/weaknesses that I have discovered w/the 4-2-5.

While the 4-2-5 employs a lot of lighter, faster guys on the Edges, playing another DB in place of a LBer, and having LBers who can run, the one spot where you need bigger stronger guys is interior defensive linemen. There is a possibility that our FO hasn't provided the right defensive tackles that are needed for the 4-2-5. Thus, perhaps there is a chance that we do draft a bigger DT this year, perhaps Travis Jones from UConn. We did discuss him in the Draft forum. Jones is around 330 lbs.

A weakness of the 4-2-5 is defending the RPO, at least in regards to my studies.

I wonder about defending TEs? I think our coverages can slow down TEs from running deep seam routes, I wonder about the intermediate zones and in the flat.

Any observations?

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Personnel is the key.

On first down the fifth guy would be the slot corner. Two corners play the boundaries. The safety's must be able to cover. You can align them pre-snap in different places.

The key to play 4-2-5 is the (2). They have to be able to cover. The slot corner is occupied. The outside backer on the strong side has to be able to cover the TE.

JOK is a chess piece for Woods. He makes the key read. The weeks game film will look at the formations and what the offense likes to do. They try to to uncover "tells" off blocking assignments.

Both linebackers have to able to play in space. They are not "stack and shed" guys. Phillps and Walker can both cover. So Woods will use personnel packages based upon game film preparations.

I don't expect JOK to come off the field very often. You mentioned RPO weakness. You are right if you do not have the right guys.

The defense has to be flexible for back up reasons. If a player reads the play wrong and commits a certain way. The result can be a big play.

Continuity is so important. This is the third year of Woods. Players like JOK, Fields, LeCounte, Phillips, Walker, JJ, Delpit, Hill, Newsome, were brought here to play for Woods.

These players must communicate well. 4-2-5 is a coverage defense. Pass rush with four is important. Blitzing is not going to be common.


bonefish #1940523 04/25/22 12:36 PM
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A little off topic, but I really like JOK's game. He is excellent. Great range, speed, and versatility. As a bonus, he is athletic enough to make splash plays.

Pdawg #1940527 04/25/22 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Pdawg
I'm going off memory here so I'm probably wrong... Didn't the defense improve the later we went into the season? If so I wonder how much man we were running.

As to Delpit, I didn't notice that problem. I know he was supposedly the one who blew the coverages in the Chargers game.

It didn't improve so much as the secondary remembered they were playing the game of football about a quarter of the way into the season.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Watch this........it was a theme that repeated itself multiple times. Delpit is # 22.


Not really arguing, but I'll point out that Delpit looked like the most competent tackler of the 3-4 guys that had a shot at Hopkins.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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He is one of the best players I have ever seen on film.

I went out of my mind when we got him.

He is bigger than Ed Reed. But he is that kind of player. Quick, fast, instinctual, smart, excellent tackler, can play man.

He is so mentally prepared to play. He studies his butt off. Film junkie.

He has rare explosiveness. When he commits. Damn he can move.

I love watching him play football. I don't own a jersey. But I may get his.

I was heartbroken when I heard about his brothers death. I knew about his background. Single mom and how close he was to his brother.

IMO he will be a great Browns player.

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bonefish #1940531 04/25/22 01:18 PM
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I read some of your comments before the draft about JOK last year. You piqued my interest, so I investigate. He was the guy I was hoping who would fall to us. Not sure why he slipped in the draft???

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The draft can fall weird. Not much of an explaination.

I think when teams got to their pick. They were looking for a different position. I can't explain it really.

I don't know how someone could watch his ND tape and not see what this guy is.

I am just glad he wears a Browns uniform.

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We need a big tackle. If we can't get that guy who demands 2 blockers, a guy like JOK is going to wear down if week after week a guy like Teller can get out on him free and clear play after play.

I don't think DT's are appreciated enough for what they do. Everybody these days measures everything in sacks when it comes to DT's and that isn't the biggest benefit they can provide a D.

Ask any good MLB if he thinks DT's make a difference.


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I am still unsure about the role of the DT's in Woods scheme. Sheldon Richardson played tackle like a inside DE.

Ogunjobi plugged gaps. Last year McDowell just tried to get upfield. Jackson seemed to just hold the line.

So I don't know. On some plays they may loop and rush. Or, maybe have the DE come inside.

If we take a DT at 44 I wonder who it will be. My guess is Logan Hall who plays like Richardson.

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DT is so under appreciated. A great DT dominates the interior and keeps the lineman off the linebackers. Having linebackers that can flow freely changes the whole makeup of the defense. Having dominant defensive tackles allows your edge people to play one-on-one in passing situations. The last 2-years, the Browns have not put an emphasis on the position and it shows. The Browns interior has been rated at the bottom of the league and it doesn't appear they are going to address it again this off season. Last years group, M. Jackson ranked 98th out of 109, M. McDowell 93/109 and Elliott 102/109, was ranked dead last in interior play. Add in the fact that it's looking more and more like the Browns won't resign Clowney, the Browns d-line is looking very suspect. However, placing 2 rookies at DT couldn't be any worse than what the Browns got out of the position in 2021.

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didn't something about a heart abnormality come out about him right after the draft, which many said caused him to fall after the fact? https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...e-check-but-my-heart-is-100-healthy.html

bonefish #1940595 04/25/22 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bonefish
Quincy reminds me so much of one of my best friends who passed away.

Not how he looks but his voice and his football takes. My friend Bruce and I watched the Browns together for over thirty years. We talked on the phone like 5 times a week. We chewed on football constantly. When Quincy brings guys on his youtube cast from the other North teams. I really enjoy that. It reminds me so much about how we used to talk. Quincy loves the game and he brings that enthusiasm.



This is a good take by Q on the Browns defense.



This is where I feel Ward is getting rewarded well, yet wants another player back. Do a lesser contract to get your boy back. Seems More about me than a team thing ! Be more like Tom Brady, Get the players that can make the team win super bowls !


Love Clowney !

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Originally Posted by bonefish
I am still unsure about the role of the DT's in Woods scheme. Sheldon Richardson played tackle like a inside DE.

Ogunjobi plugged gaps. Last year McDowell just tried to get upfield. Jackson seemed to just hold the line.

So I don't know. On some plays they may loop and rush. Or, maybe have the DE come inside.

If we take a DT at 44 I wonder who it will be. My guess is Logan Hall who plays like Richardson.

He might be the guy because we have have him best on the board and is available, but I wouldn't say he is like Richardson. Maybe he will be asked to do the same thing.

Hall is fairly small for a DT at 280. I didn't try to look it up, but it seems Richardson was like 320.

Hey, maybe we just like the fast, quick guys. Thats great if it works. At least with the guys we have marched out there it hasn't. McDowell look good for a while, but seemed to fade as the season progressed, and now the guy is a fruit and not in the league, so we can forget that.


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Well very few play twenty years at his level. And has a wife who could match his paycheck.

Ward made market value. He has not reached that level where he is going to leave money on the table.

Brady probably will have money coming in for years after he retires from deferred dollars.

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It's always easy to spend, or ask to spend, someone else's money.

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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
It's always easy to spend, or ask to spend, someone else's money.

Hey Arch, a good friend and I are talking about purchasing a partial season ticket package to the Nashville Predators next season. We both like hockey and like to spend time in Nashville. The problem is since I already buy Browns season tickets my wife will probably balk at that idea, but if you bought them for me, problem solved!

How about it??


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Speaking of which, don't you owe me some money ?

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Well very few play twenty years at his level. And has a wife who could match his paycheck.

Ward made market value. He has not reached that level where he is going to leave money on the table.

Brady probably will have money coming in for years after he retires from deferred dollars.


The highest paid CB in NFL history who is on a team that won , one play-off game ?

And as you say, if his wife can match his pay check, then that is a better reason for Ward to take a lesser contract to get Clowney and maybe Jarvis back on the team.

His level of play at his size can put him out of the game for ever !

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I feel like I owe you a beer or shot or something.


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
FATE #1940610 04/25/22 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FATE
I feel like I owe you a beer or shot or something.


You do and you better pay up this season when I see you Bro ! smile

Can't wait to see you at the Club section or tailgate !

That goes for all of you !!

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j/c:

To get back to the scheme and personnel for a moment, I read over and over again that your interior d-linemen should be the one exception to the rule when playing lighter, faster players in a 4-2-5. I think Berry is smart and hopefully, he will get at least one big DT to help Woods in the 4-2-5 scheme. Of course, if they plan on moving on from Woods in short order, that big DT won't be needed.

I have a question for you guys. Given what we have learned about the 4-2-5, it's coverages, alignments, and personnel packages........doesn't it at least make sense to you that we need some beef to stop the run in close games?

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My fault. I was referring to Brady and his wife. I don't know what you know of her? Brady's wife? Major fashion model.
"What would you like for Christmas Honey? Let's just buy France Hon."



Ward this is only his second deal. His age is important. He is 24.
In his prime. Glad we could sign him. He is important to the defense.


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Hall would be a nice addition

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Originally Posted by bonefish
My fault. I was referring to Brady and his wife. I don't know what you know of her? Brady's wife? Major fashion model.
"What would you like for Christmas Honey? Let's just buy France Hon."



Ward this is only his second deal. His age is important. He is 24.
In his prime. Glad we could sign him. He is important to the defense.


lol , wouldn't that be nice !


His age is important, your right, but so are his injury issues.

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Obviously, I think so. The O-line starts with 5 players. To me you have to equal out those numbers on the interior line by have 1 player who can command the attention of two players. That does three things with that move.

1. It cleans it up for JOK and whoever at the lb position.

2. It can take some pressure off Garrett in the form of a double team..or forces teams to double 2 players

3. Seeing the garrett will probably still get doubled, it crates a numbers advantage for us in the defensive backfield.


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jc...

If all of Woods' exotic defensive schemes are going have any chance of working on the field...HE HAS TO DO A BETTER JOB OF TEACHING THEM.

IMO, Woods and his staff need to either "simplify" the defensive scheme and/or spend "more time teaching" his defensive scheme. Too many times I watched the defense look lost, with the players obviously confused about their assignment when defensive calls were made on the field.

Blown coverage led to easy completions, big plays and TDs for our opponents. It doesn't matter how well the DLine plays if the guys in coverage don't understand what their assignment is in EVERY DEFENSE CALLED.

Back to basics first..then move on to the defensive variations.




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In 2021 the Browns pass defense was ranked 5th.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-passing-yards-per-game

If there is a failure on a play to communicate the coverage. Yes it can look bad and the result is bad.

IMO Woods has done a good job. This year will be very interesting because of player growth and new pieces added.

Right now today I don't know who will be the starters on the DL outside of Myles. Once that picture is clear. We will know more about what to expect from the defense.

As it stands today. I would take the Browns secondary over just about any team.

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jc...

Some decent breakdown of Woods defense in this video, imo. I see such a lack of defensive discipline and it seems that Woods defense lacked in basic individual technique along with no dedicated areas of responsibility...ESPECIALLY flat coverage.

I don't give a damn about the overall ranking of Woods defense...I care more about how Woods defense performed in critical situations.
As you will see in this video, the Patriots took full advantage of the Browns defensive weaknesses.










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