DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Supreme Court Draft Overturning Roe vs Wade

Isn't somebody "Raising it" how this whole mess starts.
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Yes, getting a ‘raise’ can lead to the ‘mess’ of a cell clump. Why anyone would willingly sign up to see one to completion I have no clue. Why anyone else would care what happens in my private life is also dumbfounding to me. If it ain’t your mess, if you aren’t going to raise it, if you’d never know one way or another,,,why is an abortion had by a stranger such a focal point for you? Why you want unwanted children born to parents that don’t want them I’ll never understand.
I’ll just never get it.

And I will never understand how somebody can end another humans life and think its just fine. Especially their own flesh and blood. Just like you would feel about infanticide. Neither one of use is going to change our minds on this my friend. Hope you have a good day.

Nothing you stated changes the fact that when you accuse those who get an abortion or agree with pro choice being a part of murder that anyone who sees it won't take that as you "making personal attacks" because they disagree with you. It's inflammatory and inciting. I understand your beliefs on the topic and you've made them clear for years. But you really need to stop pretending that those who disagree with you see it exactly the same way you appear to see what they are doing. Because it is.

To me there are things worse than death. I see it regularly in my career at the other end of the human life spectrum.
But being born to a 17 year old meth head mother and and her abusive also addicted boyfriend that didn’t really want you in the first place… then being raised in that chaotic hellscape they create, is worse than death. Likely the child ends up pregnant too young, and addicted to meth also. We know how these cycles work.
Given the choice, I’d rather not exist. Maybe you’d find such a life enjoyable.

I would agree that it is something that is a unfortunate situation, however you also need to look at the circumstances when unwanted children are brought into the world.

My immediate family stories reads like a tragedy novel that can not be made up. A synopsis,

Three sisters married at 17, 15, 15 with child.
Two sisters divorced, each with 2 children. Both ex spouses committed suicide by self inflicted gunshot by 25. A dead spouse cannot pay child support.
The third sister's child committed suicide by gunshot, and his child committed suicide by gunshot. (Both were hooked on Oxycodine)
Another sister married at 16 (birth control was available). I am no longer in contact with that sister. The last time I saw her she was giving a baby up for adoption. Later found out that the child has rare health issues.
Another sister gave up a baby at 17, and reconnected many years later. The child did ok for themself, even though they grew up under difficult circumstances.
Final sister had her first child at 21, probably the most uneventful of the group.

I did not get married until 27, graduated high school and college (twice).
Only 2 of my sisters graduated high school on time.

It's a tough road out there if you are young, uneducated, and with children. The odds are not with you or the children.

I am a very, very fortunate person.

I hope I can express this in the manner it's intended. I think this topic is a private matter and I am turned off by extremists. For example, I never understood how the Pro-Life folks would throw blood on people leaving abortion clinics and even worse, causing deadly deeds. I don't understand the other side threatening Pro-Life groups and churches. It's beyond mind boggling.

My wife and I had children when she was at a rather advanced age [for that time period.] We decided we would allow both pregnancies to come to fruition even if that meant that either of them would have been born severely disabled. On the other hand, I never thought it was my place to decide what other people do in regards to their own pregnancies other than to protect themselves as best they could if they did not want a baby.

With that said........I look at your story and just think about this. It sounds like there are reasons for your mother to abort her pregnancies, but if she had, she would have never have given birth to you and you would have never had the opportunity to become the success you are. My wife was born into a toxic situation, yet she is extremely successful. Her brother and sister are not. Because two of the three have failed in part due to the toxic situation, should my wife have never been given a chance to succeed?

As a former teacher and coach, I know how much outside influencers can help a troubled child who comes from a poor family situation. The world is full of cases of people who went from dire circumstances to becoming productive citizens. Since this is a football board, look at Josh Jacobs, he went from living in a car as a youth to being a star RB for Alabama and the Raiders. Do we want to eliminate those opportunities or not? I fully realize that there are far more tragic stories than positive stories, but do we want to eliminate the opportunity for a child to come into this world and thrive because the odds are not good?

I am not making a definitive statement on whether I am pro-life or not. Just trying to present an alternative perspective. Not everything is clear cut.

Not quite sure where you are going, but I was intentionally vague.

I have stated previously that I grew up without means, with both parents.

My mom had 9 children in total, 22 years between the oldest and youngest. There was never a reason for her not to conceive, but the last child made her think about that decision. I was also was near the end, and this was before birth control. Some of the births were around the time I was born, so yes there were times when mother and daughters were pregnant at the same time.

I look at it with mixed feelings. I certainly can understand why someone would have an abortion, and can understand why they would not.

I will simply say that it is not my place to pass judgement on another, nor is it the governments.

I thought I was pretty clear, but maybe not? I understand that abortions are appropriate for women who are raped or victims of incest, I do wonder if humans have the right to play God? I don't even know if I believe in God, but it's an expression. How can we be so sure that a child not succeed even if they are born into terrible environments. Should we play God and say ..........this child has no chance, so his/her life should never be allowed to come to fruition?

But again..........I am not trying to make a definitive statement. Just something to think about. And judging from your response, I really doubt those that have their minds made up will even take the time to consider an alternative theory.

I have thought about and contemplated your thoughts and appreciate your efforts to maintain civil discussion on a difficult and emotionally charged subject that this is.

I respect your position and believe that you would understand mine. That is sometimes the best outcome that can be obtained.

I call a skunk a skunk. I don't call it a dog, or a cat, or a Teddy Bear. I am not and never have been PC. You know that. Would you stop saying Deshaun Watson committed sexual assault and that he just "flirted" Hell no you wouldn't. Should I stop calling a fetus a baby because somebody may get offended? Would people like it any better if I said that abortion was Homicide committed by the mother? I mean that's probably more accurate since the definition of Homicide is "a legal term for any killing of a human being by another human being." Homicide itself is not necessarily a crime—for instance, a justifiable killing of a suspect by the police or a killing in self-defense. Murder and manslaughter fall under the category of unlawful homicides.

I would find life more enjoyable alive than I would dead.

Now how many abortions were performed because the mother was a 17 year old meth head and her abusive addicted boyfriend, then get raised in a chaotic hellscape worse than death??? 50 percent, 25 percent 10 percent, or 1 percent. Many folks addicted to drugs get help and go on to lead happy productive lives, and just because a persons life might be harder than anothers doesn't mean they don't want to live it. Hell if that is the case why not just abort every baby that is not going to be born to two healthy happy rich parents?

I'm sorry to hear about your immediate family Woofer I can relate.

My wife had a tough go of it in her life. Unwanted teenage pregnancy by her mother. Mother was a alcoholic. Parents divorced when she was still a small child, stepmother beat her and mentally abused her. According to some people around here she would have been better off being aborted. I myself was raised by parents who were poor, who got married at 17 because my mom was pregnant.

We were married one week after my wife turned 17 and 10 days before I turned 19.
I have been on Oxy for almost 7 years now myself.

We are coming up on 41 years of a Happy blessed marriage. We have two wonderful children, two wonderful Grandchildren with a third one on the way. Both of our kids are married and have great jobs and spouses with great jobs. Neither of our Children have had to struggle with being poor like my parents, my wife's parents, and we did when we were young.

“justifiable killing of a suspect by the police or a killing in self-defense.”

Yet having an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy is something many states want to deem illegal. It’s self defense. It’ll kill the mother.
I’d rather be aborted than be raised in the environment I earlier described. Hell, if I’d been aborted by my current mother who raised me in a loving household it wouldn’t matter… because I’d never have known. So… meh. Who cares? Can’t mourn for something you never had.

Well at least we can agree on having an abortion for a ectopic pregnancy. (Checking to see if hell froze over) lol

You're missing my entire point but I'll try again. I understand how "you and many others" see this. I certainly don't begrudge you seeing it that way or stating what you believe. My point is that there are millions of Americans who don't see it the same way. As a matter of fact the majority of Americans don't see it that way. I just want you to understand they see you saying that as an attack on them no less than you see what some of them saying as attacking you. I'm just asking you to understand that what you perceive as stating your facts is viewed no less of an attack on some as you see them attacking you.

It's not about trying to silence you or asking you to change your view. It's about asking you to understand those you are talking about see it the same way you do when your views are opposed.

I think a lot of us look at alternative theories. Actually my opinion is almost exactly the same as yours. You haven't actually stated how you feel about the legality of abortion and I'm not going to ask you to do so. We all have limits as to what we want to share on a private forum and what we don't.

On a personal opinion and personal belief system standpoint, I'm against abortion. As with yourself I was in a situation where a tough call had to be made. Even then it wasn't my choice but my daughters mom who had the choice. Luckily we both agreed that abortion was not an option. Where I have decided to draw the line is trying to force my beliefs on the matter upon other people. Even then that's a very tough choice for me to make. This isn't an easy topic for me.

As with you the extremists on both sides bother me the most. I watched abortion doctors killed. People harassing women going into these clinics calling them murderers. All while these women were going through the one of the, if not the most traumatizing experiences in their life. An abortion clinic being burned to the ground. Abortion doctors having their lives threatened. Now we watch as the other side is at least using these same threats. There seems to be no room for middle ground.

I guess after all is said and done it boils down to this for me. We both had a choice as to the decision we made. We both came to the same conclusion. We both had to live with the decisions we made. I think we are both very happy with our decisions based on what I have seen you post about your family. I'm just not willing to dictate that same choice being taken away from others.

In the end, at least from my limited experience on the topic, one thing I think saddens me the most is this. Many women who were very young, not even adults in some cases and older women have made the choice to get an abortion. They were caught up in the moment and looked only at the immediate future. As they matured and have gotten older the decision they made has come back to haunt them. They think about how old that child would be, how they would look, what grade they would be in and looking back consider it the worst decision they ever made in their life.

But just as with us, they now must now live with the decisions they made. I certainly don't envy them and I'm 100% sure if they knew back then what they know now, there would have been far less abortions.

I think you can see just how difficult a topic this is for many of us.

Just to be clear, both our children were born perfectly healthy and are very intelligent. I don't want to mislead anyone. It was just a decision we made early on. We heard the stories of what can happen to babies who were born to older women. Btw--that doesn't even seem like a big deal now, but it was at that point in time. We just decided we were going to love and nurture our children regardless if they were completely healthy or had disabilities.

I think you did a very nice job of expressing the sensitivity and the complexities of this topic. I'm not one to force my opinion on others on such personal topics. I will say that I do wish that folks would do a better job of protecting themselves and their partners if they don't wish to have children. That would at least help a little.

In my case it was because we were both very young, weren't ready to have a child and didn't have the income to support a child. But we decided that as we grew older and with hard work we could overcome those things and the ability to raise a child would only get better. And I agree with you that using protection would be the wise choice. But as we can all witness, that often times doesn't happen. That would certainly help.

Progressive Women's groups in red states where abortions are banned are planning to introduce legislation to force vasectomies on all males at age thirteen, to protect innocent girls and babies. They know it will never even get a vote or be voted down, but they want to highlight the sexism in a patriarchal government. I'm behind anything that drives 1776 back to 1776, and ends this onslaught on progress and decency.

We all know that Progressives are goofy people. No doubt they would bring up something like that.

Forcing vasectomies isn't equivalent and proposing such does nothing more than hurt any arguments on the topic.

What they need to to do instead is introduce legislation mandating financial support from the father. And if there is any question require DNA testing that the suspected father cannot refuse to give a sample. That would be right and equivalent. But I bet there would be a lot of pushback about the man's rights to not have to give a DNA sample.

Additionally, There would need to be legislation put in place to provide education, food, shelter, and healthcare. But have we have seen, if you propose that kind of stuff you get called a socialist and/or a communist.

And this all goes back to the concept that most people who claim to be "pro-life" are not actually pro-life, just anti-abortion.

Decency? What an odd word choice. Perhaps you should volunteer in an abortion clinic and discard the "clump of cells" as you guys call them and also wash all the mess that the act of progress and decency entail. Then come back and talk to us about what a liberating process it is.

While I agree that men should be forced to financially support their unwanted offspring it’s often going to equate to bleeding a stone. The reason many abortions are wanted is because of the perilous financial situations many find themselves in. If you can’t afford to raise a kid you consider abortion. If the abortion doesn’t happen it’s not like that changes the finances of the person. Getting proportional child support out of a young adult making $12 an hour isn’t exactly going to provide for a great life for the baby.

A concept that has been designed by folks who view things w/blinders on and feel the need to categorize people who don't share the same clear-cut beliefs that they do.

You know, I don't believe in "immaculate conceptions." Rape and incest are real things and as disgusting as it gets. However, most pregnancies occur from willing partners. Those folks have a "choice" to practice abstinence and/or take advantage of protected sex. If said folks would exhibit more discipline and self-restraint and less selfishness and indulgence, perhaps we would not need for other folks to slap encompassing labels and creating false concepts on those who might be more open-minded about the subject?

I want to add that I'm not taking sides here. I have just as much disgust for those who are extreme in their opinions that abortion is evil. For example, for the life of me, I never could understand the rational of wanting to protect an unborn baby so badly that you are willing to commit violence against others. It's mind-boggling. Too many folks fueled by hate and self-righteousness. I just spoke up for the other side because at least on this board, there are far more participants on one side than the other. And frankly, the decency comment that was thrown out there was beyond belief. It's amazing the stuff that guy says.

Not sure how your comments apply to that part of my post you quoted.

Some people are truly pro-life. Thus my use of the word most.
And it is clear to me that the majority of the anti-abortion crowd doesn't care what happens to a baby after it is born.
So I stand by that statement.

To your point, I don't disagree.
For the pro-choice-ers (in most cases) the women has multiple choices.
They choose whether or not to have sex - though in many cases they don't have an option.
And I don't just mean rape an incest. Many women have to be willing to have sex to have a roof over their heads, often times not only for them but for their other child/children.
When we think of the women's lib movement, we have the image of the suburban woman and her liberation. It's a very different picture in the inner city.

They choose whether or not they use birth control. Though in many cases they don't have access.

As a society, the wealthy make the rules. As a consequence there is an tilted field designed to keep the poor and downtrodden poor and downtrodden. And while it isn't impossible for people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, these people have the deck stacked against them. Perpetuates the cycle.

The other thing no one wants to discuss is what rights does the father have.

In a mutually agreed upon sexual encounter that conceives and has no undue health risk to the mother, what if the father wants the child?
Yes it is the woman's body, but she didn't get pregnant by herself.
Logistically, there is no way to deal with it. All a woman would have to do is say it was a random hookup and she doesn't know who the father is.
But what if the father is known and he doesn't want the pregnancy aborted? Do we force the woman to go through with it?
Then what happens when he changes his mind last minute? Do we need legislation to prevent that?

My point is that abortion is a complicated multifaceted issue, but people don't want to discuss the issue. They are set on the sound bit argument.

I think you made some excellent points. I understand that "pro birth" people think you are speaking in generalities. And often times that is what happens. But what you have described if often the case. Most "pro birth" people are Republicans. Of that number most are religious. I too have religious convictions. But the very reason I call them "pro birth" is because that very same political party fights the expansion of medicare. It was blocked here in Tennessee even after the medical community offered to pick up the 10% federal dollars didn't cover. They oppose social spending. I mean there are states where Republicans are even fighting to stop sex education in their schools. So how are kids going to be educated about birth control and family planning by people who are actually qualified to do so? They cut and oppose the very programs that would help these children after they are born. They support funding schools according to the property taxes paid in their districts. Which means by definition that if you live in an impoverished area, you will have to fund your schools on far less money than an affluent suburb.

Not to mention these anti abortion laws mean that anyone who has the money and the transportation to travel long distances still have access to get an abortion if they so choose. Those who do not have such resources? They do not. Nothing could be made more obvious that the only people it actually targets is the poor.

Anti abortion laws in many states have closed down planned parenthood locations. The very places these women had to access the very birth control people say they should be using to avoid abortions. What that accomplishes is even more unwanted pregnancies because they are helping to cut off access to the very thing they say these poor women should be using to avoid those pregnancies.

And I do agree with Vers that these women should be using birth control. But in many cases we aren't even talking about "women", we are talking about girls and boys. Let's face it, the men obviously aren't going to do it. But how realistic is it to expect kids anywhere from 13-17 years old to conduct their life and decisions like a responsible adult? It's a great idea in theory but what I see as an unrealistic expectation in practicality.

So yes, if you're belief is that you should set up laws making abortion a crime, you should also set up programs, an education system, a support system to insure these children are cared for and educated to give them an equal shot in life. But you see, that would take money, a lot of hard work and commitment. That's why what those who claim to be pro life, for the most part, are nothing ore than "pro birth".

I mean how many times have you seen it said that, "Well they have a chance to work their way out of poverty". When you should be hearing those claiming they're pro life saying, "We're going to help provide what it takes for them to have an equal shot in life". Life lasts well beyond conception and far beyond birth.

You make good points and I am not arguing, but as a former educator who worked in some rough areas, believe me, there are a ton of laws and programs in place to aide those unfortunate children. Trust me, they receive a lot more aide and opportunities than say your kids or my kids received. I am not opposed to that at all. We do need to help them as much as we can. Unfortunately, there are adults who exploit the system. Nothing will ever be perfect.

Personally speaking, I think it's imperative to encourage young people to learn the importance of personal accountability and stop blaming every one else for poor decisions made by the individual.

I get a little perturbed when I hear "you're not pro life, you're pro birth. Then you forget about the kids." It's simply not true.

There are countless programs, gov't. funded, for the poor.

Or for the not so poor.

I do not know, perhaps someone else does? How many abortions are from, as 1 poster stated, 'meth heads' vs. how many abortions are from an "inconvenience" stand point?

Contraceptives are available, by the way.

Arch - I am no expert and haven't studied this issue since we covered it at school a 1,000 years ago. I don't know what the numbers are. My question would be "Does it matter" .... if the baby is unwanted - if the baby is going to be raised in an environment where it is overwhelmingly more likely to grow up to have serious problems of it's own and create more future generations of problems .... does it matter?

Does forcing irresponsible individuals who did not abstain - or who did not use birth control - or those who did use birth control but not "perfectly" and subsequently got pregnant .... does preventing them from having an abortion that is currently legal in the USA and in 90+% of first world industrialized countries in the world ... does it help?

So I was interested enough o look this up - between 2% and 8% of women on the pill get pregnant. From what I can determine about 11 million women are on the pill - even at only 2% that's 220,000 unwanted pregnancies each year by the responsible individuals.

https://www.businessinsider.com/her...en-get-pregnant-while-on-the-pill-2017-5

Fair question...

So it becomes a baby when one can no longer freeze it and expect it to live when thawed? How long does it take to get to that point. Can you freeze and thaw a 6 week old fetus and expect it to thaw and grow? I don't know the answer.

Molly was also created in a lab and implanted, though I am not sure that means any thing in the greater discussion.

No idea FrankZ. But I think it blows the "It's a baby" argument out the window. And I'm not sure how late an embryo can be frozen and remain viable, good question. But I don't think it should be the say ll end all deciding factor, however it should factor in significantly if we are talking about making abortions completely illegal because life begins at conception or even 6 weeks.

Not sure it blows the "it's baby" out the window. I mean the embryo didn't become a petunia afterall. And even at conception the cells are still living, and will become a human at some point without intervention or accident. You have used the "mass of cells" or similar in the past, but a mole is a mass of cells and will never become a human. It really is a bit tricky in all this.

One of the more interesting pro-choice arguments I have read from a political right point of view was basically, we all have rights, one of which is right to life. However we all earn ownership of those rights through age. Different rights mature at different times, we don't let 2 year olds vote (though some voters do act like 2 year olds). The ownership of the right to life gets granted somewhere between conception and birth, and until then the owner is the parent as happens with other rights.

Not sure I fully agree with that argument but I did think it an interesting take on the whole debate.

I'm pro choice, but not pro abortion. I think every woman should have the right to decide on her own. If she is married and wants the husband to weigh in, that's good too. But nobody has the right to force her to have a baby, or an abortion. And a man should only get a say when the embryo is an born BABY. Child support doesn't kick in until it's born, his responsibility doesn't start until then either. But a father who is in the picture with the mom, should he have a right to force a mother to bear a child she doesn't want? Republicans make a big deal out of the fathers rights, but I have not found a thing in the law that guarantees his rights... It's not in the constitution either. There are a lot of intricacies in legislating this, I wonder if that's why Row stood so long?

If I see a child about to walk out into traffic on a busy highway, I will jump to action to save his life.

No matter which side of the street he is on, or which side of the skin for that matter.

That was helpful.