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I am still waiting for a link that says Haslam forced Berry to acquire Watson. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.


vers...you seem to have a bit of a problem with reading comprehension...try reading again.

I never once said Berry was forced to do anything and my response has NOTHING TO DO WITH BAKER..!!!

Last edited by mac; 05/16/22 01:54 PM.



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LOL mac. Actually my reading comprehension is very good and that is why I addressed your claims.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I am still waiting for a link that says Haslam forced Berry to acquire Watson. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that. I think that the Browns organization realized that they had a good roster and that they needed an upgrade at the QB position. That is why they did not give Baker the extension and it is why they started looking at Watson way back in November or whenever it was. I have a feeling they were exploring other possible options as well. They may have considered trading for guys like Carr, Cousins, Jimmy G [before his throwing shoulder was injured, etc. They may have considered Wilson?

I do NOT believe that the the coaching staff and FO wanted to keep Baker and Haslam demanded they make the trade for Watson. Sorry. I'll change my mind if you have a link to back up your claim.
I think you're reading too much into this, or others (including myself) are not expressing their actual view on the subject.

I am, in no way, suggesting only Haslam wanted Watson. I'm simply saying that there was a large investment of time and energy in the pursuit... most of it taking place during a time when nobody had any idea what would come of the allegations. As the situation morphed into a real possibility, and then a real meeting, then a real "let-down"; it became a decision largely based on Haslam and his being on-board with the largest contract (as far as guarantee) and one of the largest payouts (assets) in NFL history. Nobody makes those decisions but the owner.

If you think about the logistics of a deal like that, the other participants (who don't sign the checks) are basically in a situation where they can't be held to shoulder the blame. Of course, that changes if Berry or anyone else was pressuring Haslam to do something he didn't feel comfortable with, but I *don't think* that was the case at all. Of course there would be no link to substantiate what is obviously an opinion.

Basically, what I think happened is Berry reached a point where he said "sorry boss, I don't think we can get it done because the cost is too high"... And then Haslam said "the hell, you say!" (insert southern twang).

Let's be honest, the smart thing to do at that point would be for Berry to insure job security by advising (read: lightly warning lol) against the high price-tag. That makes it even harder for Jimmy to place blame on him if it doesn't work out.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I personally find this hard to believe, but I am no insider. Do you guys have proof about this?

The owner always has the final say. The owner signs the checks. I didn't think that was something that required proof.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Different opinions are good. I don't know, maybe you are correct. I just see mac's post as one of those kind of things that reads like it really happened and it is repeated enough by different people that it becomes fact. The OBJ not running the right routes and not knowing where to line-up is an example of how BS becomes fact around here.

From what I understand, there were four teams that all agreed to Houston's trade demands. New Orleans, Carolina, us, and Atlanta. There were other teams who wanted him but Houston would not trade w/Indy because they are in the same division and other teams simply were not in position to give up that many assets. So, I don't think Jimmy made our FO make the trade. Perhaps the guaranteed money was suggested or approved by Jimmy? I don't know. I do think that the organization realized they needed an upgrade at the position and there was not another QB available who was better than Watson. The price was extremely high in regards to what we had to give up, Watson's compensation, and even the amount of negative public attention it has brought our organization. Time will tell if it was worth such an investment. I realize not everyone feels this way, but I am hoping they made the correct decision.

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Will you please stop? I never said that the owner doesn't make the final decision. Again, you live to argue and demean others. It's like a job you clock into every day.

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The sleeping dog in the room might be awaken with the depositions of the 18 women (often ignored) that have come out in support of Watson.

So you think the fact he wasn't sexually inappropriate with all of them is some strong argument he wasn't sexually inappropriate with others? Apply that to anything else and see how that works.

"Well he didn't steal thousands of other cars in the city so he must not be a car thief."

Sounds a little crazy doesn't it?


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Will you please stop? I never said that the owner doesn't make the final decision. Again, you live to argue and demean others. It's like a job you clock into every day.

That sounds great when you shift the blame to me for stating the obvious. How is what I said an argument? The owner makes the final decision what checks he writes. In regards to motive, the owner has the most to gain financially by bringing a SB title to Cleveland. The owner has the most to lose if this thing goes belly up and doesn't work out. That's not an argument no matter how much you would like to frame it as such. It's just a convenient excuse to try and dismiss my points.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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One last time and then I am going to ignore your constant need for conflict. I never once said that the owner doesn't make the final decision. Please stop writing things and making accusations about things I have never said.

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And as I stated, the owner was the one who had the most to gain or lose in acquiring DW. Your claim is I have a constant need for conflict? I'm not the one who has sat here and gone after Baker in thread after thread and post after post. That would be you.

Maybe you are thinking about the DW threads? There you may have a point. But stop pretending you haven't been on a consistent rant about Baker. People can read.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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j/c...


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How can they meet with him in Texas? I though he was in the Bahamas? naughtydevil

What a jet setter he is!


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Man, this could put a real damper on the Bahama vacay. "Man, I won't see you guys 'til week nine, but let's go toss the ball anyway."


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You are a little too quick to argue, I said it will wake the sleeping dog. The 18 women that are supporting Watson have not said he didn't have sexual relations with him - they stated that they didn't feel pressured. The Judge demanded that these women needed to have dispositions to determine how many of these women participated and if it indicates a trend. Watson's issue is if half of them say he did proposition them and you add that to the 22 other complaints you have a definite trend of solicitation. The judge also requested Watson cash app records. As with most crimes, if you follow the money you will find the problem. Solicitation is a felony in Texas and a game changer as far as Watson being able to play for Cleveland if they start going down that road.


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Originally Posted by Milk Man

Maybe the league officials wanted to be in the Bahamas too...

This may end the speculation soon though, the NFL isn't like SCOTUS taking 6 months to put out an opinion.

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Shefty reported last week that the NFL wants to make a decision by the start of training camp. I think that is around the end of July.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Shefty reported last week that the NFL wants to make a decision by the start of training camp. I think that is around the end of July.

While I take him with a grain of salt I can see that and this would put them on track for that time line.

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This may end the speculation soon though, the NFL isn't like SCOTUS taking 6 months to put out an opinion.

Josh Gordon disagrees.


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Originally Posted by jfanent
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This may end the speculation soon though, the NFL isn't like SCOTUS taking 6 months to put out an opinion.

Josh Gordon disagrees.

Which time?

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The only way any of this would fall back on Berry IMO, is if the court cases go really bad and Watson ends up on long term suspension or never plays. I think Jimmy signed off on everything else. Biggest contract ever? You know they did that ONLY with the Haslam's blessing.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 05/16/22 06:06 PM.

Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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I know you are making a joke, but the process has changed. Here is an article about it.


Quote
Understanding the NFL’s new process for imposing discipline under Personal Conduct Policy

Posted by Mike Florio on May 5, 2022, 10:34 AM EDT



The more things change, the more they stay the same.

In 2020, the NFL and NFL Players Association agreed to make real changes to the manner in which discipline is imposed under the Personal Conduct Policy. As a potential suspension of Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson continues to loom, it’s important to understand how the rules are different — and more importantly how they aren’t.


The latest CBA, finalized in March 2020, incorporates a Disciplinary Officer who makes the threshold decision as to whether a player will be suspended, and for how long. The Disciplinary Officer is jointly hired and compensated by the league and the NFLPA, a key change to the prior protocol that was run completely by the Commissioner and/or those who report to him.

The process begins with the league notifying the player of the potential violation for which discipline may be imposed. And while it’s not spelled out expressly in the policy, the league undoubtedly will recommend or request a specific duration of suspension. The Disciplinary Officer then proceeds to evaluate the situation. The process can, but is not required to, culminate in a full-blown evidentiary hearing.

Things get interesting once the Disciplinary Officer issues a decision. The Commissioner, or his hand-picked designee, continues to have full authority over the appeal. Based on the language of the policy, the Commissioner has broad powers when it comes to reviewing, revising, or reversing the Disciplinary Officer’s decision: “The decision of the Commissioner or his designee, which may overturn, reduce, modify or increase the discipline previously issued, will be final and binding on all parties.”

There’s an important caveat. While the Commissioner has the power to “overturn, reduce, modify or increase the discipline previously issued,” the Commissioner cannot alter a decision to not discipline the player at all. The league office has indeed confirmed that, if the Disciplinary Officer finds that there should be no discipline at all, the case is over.

That said, if any discipline whatsoever is imposed by the Disciplinary Officer (including, presumably, even a fine), the Commissioner has the power to “modify or increase” the punishment to whatever he wants it to be.

Thus, the Commissioner continues to have full and final say over all discipline under the Personal Conduct Policy. The Commissioner’s powers become short-circuited only if/when the Disciplinary Officer concludes that the player should experience no discipline. If any discipline is imposed, the Commissioner can change it in any way that he wants. With no appeal rights beyond that.

The changes to the policy would have been much more meaningful if the Commissioner made the first decision and then independent appeal rights activated. The policy as revised simply cuts the Commissioner out of the middle of the process, putting the bulk of the work on the Disciplinary Officer before the Commissioner (or his designee) swoops in with full and complete power to do whatever he wants, unless the Disciplinary Officer decides that the player should not be punished in any way.

For Watson, the good news is that if he can persuade the Disciplinary Officer that no violation occurred, the Commissioner can’t do anything about it. If the Disciplinary Officer disagrees and imposes any discipline at all, the Commissioner can rip up the decision and replace it with his own. And Watson will have no recourse.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...iscipline-under-personal-conduct-policy/

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Here is a chart that is helpful about the new personal conduct policy.


https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/NFL_domestic_violence_policy.pdf

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Does this mean NFL players no longer have access to an appeal process?


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Originally Posted by FATE
Does this mean NFL players no longer have access to an appeal process?


they do


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Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by FATE
Does this mean NFL players no longer have access to an appeal process?


they do

Doesn't read like that at all...

"Thus, the Commissioner continues to have full and final say over all discipline under the Personal Conduct Policy. The Commissioner’s powers become short-circuited only if/when the Disciplinary Officer concludes that the player should experience no discipline. If any discipline is imposed, the Commissioner can change it in any way that he wants. With no appeal rights beyond that."


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It was well known that the Browns were out of the race because Watson didn't want to move to Cleveland and play in the cold.

Baker's childish actions are the only reason we have Watson.

Had Baker not thrown a temper tantrum... Haslam would have flown to Texas and smoothed things over.


Instead, Baker demanded a trade and Berry make Watson a deal he couldn't refuse. Because... well, there was no other option - We are in our window of "win-now".

The aftermath is that Baker is now a 6th-string back up and no NFL team is willing to trade for him. Had he kept his mouth zipped... he would be the starting QB for the Browns and we would have been able to get a ton of additional weapons and a lot of future cap space.


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It sounds to me like the player can appeal the act of discipline but not the actual punishment if one is handed out.

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You should click on the link for the chart I referenced after the Florio article. It's from CBS Sports.

These three parts may answer your question.



RESPONSE OF INDIVIDUAL
The individual is given notice of proposed discipline and can choose to
appeal the decision while remaining on paid leave during the duration
of the appeal. In cases of a criminal conviction, the underlying
conviction can not be challenged and the court’s judgment and factual
findings are binding for the purposes of the NFL disciplinary process.


NFL EXPERT PANEL HEARING
The appeal process will include a review panel of three outside experts
to make recommendations to the Commissioner or his designee on an
appeal ruling that will be decided by the Commissioner or his designee.


FINAL DECISION
The Commissioner or his designee reviews the panel’s
recommendations and makes a final decision on disciplinary measures.


Here is the link again: https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/NFL_domestic_violence_policy.pdf

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Florio's commentary and that flowchart represent two totally different sets of "protocol". I'll trust the chart (I guess) although the article is written under a headline of "new process", goes on to say it may have an impact, states there is no appeal process and then points to a flowchart that says there is. Weird.

Language from the chart is this...

Violations involving assault, battery, domestic violence or sexual assault will result in a baseline six-game suspension without pay, with more if aggravating factors are present, such as the use of a weapon or a crime against a child.

Considering there was no assault, battery, domestic violence or sexual assault proven, I would think it would be very difficult to push for more than six games.


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I agree. I was really hesitant to post Florio's article because there was such a slant to it. He was trying really hard to push a certain narrative. But, I was worried that people would not take the time to read through the chart and I tried to find a dummied-down article about it.

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Gotcha. Should have clicked the chart first, google is not my friend today.

Do you know if any one from the league has confirmed that this case has been pigeon-holed into "domestic violence"? I mean, it's not, really. Just wondering if it will just fall into the generic "personal conduct policy" and they'll just make up the rules as they go... wouldn't be the first time.


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Number of incidents could easily be an aggravating factor. It is not a singular, isolated incident; it's a well established pattern of deliberate conduct. I'm not saying that means much to the NFL, especially with their history on how they view things, but it is something that could escalate the punishment.

That said, the change in the process allows the Commish to say "my hands are tied, there's nothing I can do" if the guy comes back with no recommendation for punishment. The public backlash in that scenario would be huge, but he has an out to say he cannot do anything.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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I don't know the answer to that question, Fate.

I have a feeling that the NFL is in a bad spot because it seems unfair to punish a man w/out all the facts of the case being public and the fact that criminal charges were not pursued. Yet, they are probably under quite a bit of pressure to hand down a punishment to save face in the eyes of the media and significant segment of the public.

Personally speaking, I think it would be the most fair to wait until the courts have made their decisions and all the evidence has been revealed, but I understand why they want to put this ugly situation behind them.

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Yeah, I think the idea to take away "omnipotent" from the commissioner is a good one. People were tired of judge, jury, executioner. At least now he's not deciding someone's actual guilt before laying down the punishment.


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I agree w/you that while the new protocol isn't perfect, it's a helluva lot better than it was. I know that it was agreed upon during the latest Collective Bargaining Agreement. At least I think I know that. LOL

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lol. Hard to know what you know or don't know with this league. grin


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If the guideline is a 6-game suspension, then what is it for 22 separate violations? Surely no one on this forum can believe that the NFL is going to roll all these cases into one occurrence and treat it as a single violation of the personal conduct policy? These claims occurred between 2019 and 2021 and each probably should be considered individually. A one game suspension for each violation would be a minimum of 22 games. Harty NOS got a 3-game suspension for a single DWI arrest in 2021. Guice WAS was suspended 6 games for a single domestic violence accusation in 2021, Desmond Harrison was suspended 6-games for a single accusation of assault on a woman in 2021. None of these players had been convicted of the crime before their suspension.

IDK how this will play out, but a 6-game suspension would seem highly unlikely considering there are 22 individual complaints over a 2 plus year period. Treating Watson's problem the same as a single domestic violence accusation wouldn't seem balanced in any way, shape, or form. That's just my opinion though.

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Six games... he wasn't reprimanded by the league between any of these incidences, was he? Then he's not a repeat offender.

I could see the league saying (rightfully so, because it's true) that he was made aware that his actions were not welcome by several accusers and continued the same behavior. And since it is sexual behavior they may point out the continued behavior and tack on a couple games besides the six. That's about it though.


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
The only way any of this would fall back on Berry IMO, is if the court cases go really bad and Watson ends up on long term suspension or never plays. I think Jimmy signed off on everything else. Biggest contract ever? You know they did that ONLY with the Haslam's blessing.


When has the NFL ever suspended a player based on civil suits? I cannot find a single example.

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