DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Supreme Court Draft Overturning Roe vs Wade

Well, after reading a litany of excuses for killing kids it was all I had.

Who is Killing kids!?!?! OMG, that's awful. Unless you are talking about goats, then not so much.

I am pro freedom and pro responsibility.

I don't buy the argument that anyone is forcing a woman to have a child she does not want, expect in case of non-consensual sex. Back in the dark ages of the 1950's women were not taught sexulaity well, and there were a lot of wives tales on how things worked. Even into the 1970s some myths persisted, like "you can get pregnant sitting on a public toilet." Kid you not, I knew someone that thought that in the early 1980's as a preteen. I think we have come a long way since then and people understand Tab D in Slot P can result in a baby. I also understand that people have a "it can't happen to me" mind set, especially when they are younger. If you don't want to get pregnant there are lots of fun other activities that won't result in the embryo -> fetus -> baby -> parenthood chain.

But, having a built in mulligen may not be a bad thing either and being able to get a safe abortion does help fulfil that. I don't like the act, I really don't. I do think that taking a human life, especially one that has wronged no one, and cannot defend or speak for itself should not be done lightly. I do find some of the abortion activists that claim how proud they are they had an abortion abhorrent. At the time of Roe one argument is that it was a difficult choice, a deadly serious difficult choice women had to make, and I agree that allowing that choice is important. Now we have some that say they want to get pregnant just to have an abortion. I do get that some of it is just push back and rhetoric to be evocative, but I think the more people talk like that the more people think it is ok.

I've known my fair share of women, and I was always careful to do my part to make sure the issue wasn't an issue. People know what causes these things, do your best to not get there if you can't afford or don't want a baby.

This is extremely well said ::tips hat::

I just want to highlight/expand on a couple of things you said.

-Teaching/information sharing
A little over a year ago, my wife and I went through a miscarriage. I bring this up because of you mentioning myths and mindsets surrounding pregnancy. It was a difficult time, but what blew me away was the number of people that went through the same thing and I never knew. This included coworkers that I saw every day, and even a close friend whom we had shared really personal stuff. It's crazy how alone we felt despite not being alone at all.
I also bring this up because, when this happened to us, it was somewhat late in the pregnancy and my wife had to have a procedure that would be characterized as an abortion (even though baby was already gone). Letting that resolve itself naturally would have introduced a whole lot of unnecessary risk to my wife for absolutely no reason. I have ZERO confidence that the clowns that run our country/state would be able to legislate in such a way that would recognize this type of situation.

-Life of the fetus and its inability to speak for itself
I also struggle to justify ending life without it being able to speak for or defend itself. I DO think abortion should be an option, but I'd like to see more done to encourage not using this option. Foster system is a joke, and it seems like it's way too easy for men to avoid accountability. I have a hard time with pro-lifers that aren't also pounding the table for legislation to support proper care for children after birth. I think it's telling when someone can be so passionate about life up until birth, and then so indifferent after.

Could you define "some"? Not saying there may not be a few crazies like that out there, but this is something I've never heard of.

Lena Dunham "wished she had had an abortion"

https://time.com/4608364/lena-dunham-wish-abortion-comments/

Now before you start nipping at my heels, you might want to read, in context, and understand, in context, what I wrote.

An no, I am not going to spend the rest of my lunch break chasing things to prove something to you, I really could care less if you believe it.

Thanks for the reply. Yes there are crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum. It sounds like you found one. That helps clarify what you meant when you said "some".

Some is more than zero and less than all.

The problem is too many people are in an echo chamber, and the hyperbole of today is the belief of tomorrow. It happens on all sides of debate.

I do recall last week a woman saying she wanted to get pregnant by a republican so she could abort it, but I don't remember who that was right off.

Crazy and flat out stooopid. One of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen/heard/read. Fact stranger than fiction.

Hey, no argument from me. Like I said, crazy is something we see too much of these days from both sides. And sadly that's what gets reported because if the shock value. It garners headlines and what draws attention. Which often creates a situation where the saner voices from both sides get drowned out.

"Because an embryo isn't alive"

It makes for a good viral meme, but it's a load of crap. If it wasn't alive, it wouldn't be able to grow and replicate into what it is at its very base level, in its DNA.
To use the favorite meme from the other side of the tracks, paraphrased, if that same embryo were discovered on Mars, it would be heralded as absolute proof-of-life.

The reason you can freeze an embryo is vitrification and the fact there are so few cells to compromise and no complex systems, yet, to set up cascading failures. Freezing of cells so rapidly that crystals can't form which greatly limits damage to cell walls is the reason it works. NOT "because an embryo isn't alive".

Use science. Not pseudo-science and memes.

The other side doesn't believe in science, BUT they believe in memes... hell they are memes.

and yet, here we are passing made up gibberish "science" in the form of a meme...

Well, to be far there are a lot of people that believe in political science... especially during the plandemic.

Aborted on your Birthday.

Dems vote to legalize abortion up to birth
The Senate failed to pass the measure, but it would have given health care providers the 'right' to provide abortions with few limitations

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/backlash-builds-after-democrats-vote-legalize-abortion-until-birth

Once again, Dems make Barbarians cringe.

I don't know 40, there are some people I would like to abort 50+ years after the fact...

BULLCRAP

The photo I posted was of a 19 week old baby. Not even close to third trimester. Swing and a miss bro.

OK Bro you know how much I love you.
I took almost a full week without posting. I took a long hard look at how I was posting. I read every post in this thread. Never ONCE did I call anybody else a name, and never once was I wrong with my feelings. Why didn't you bash others who support abortion.... you didn't. You agree that they have the right...just like I disagree. Did I bash you for speaking your mind.... NOPE so just back off. I have every right to my feelings and I refuse to keep my mouth shut. I don't hear you shutting up about Watson, and I never once said you should. I said abortion is murder and I admitted maybe homicide is a better word than murder. I still feel that way and I refuse to think it's OK and keep my mouth shut bro.

NOPE. Christians are no better than the Taliban, forcing their religion on others. Prove me wrong. Christofascism.

Thats easy bro. I am a Christian. Never once have I bashed you for not being a Christian. Never once Have i bashed you for being a athiest, or agonstic. Never once have I tried to convince you that your wrong about God. Never once have I compaired you with the Taliban. You my friend are the one with problems ... it looks like you can't stand Christians.

Actually that isn't what I said. I said I think you should understand that when you say those who have an abortion and those who support it are committing murder it's no less seen as an attack as what you have accused others of. You're the one that brought up being personally attacked for your views on abortion, not someone else. That's why I addressed you in hopes you could understand when you put the label murderer on someone else they see that as no less of an attack as you see others doing it to you.

You have every right to express your views any way you see fit. I never said you didn't. I understand your views and respect your right to hold those views. But come on bro, you can't accuse people of committing murder and honestly believe they don't see that as you personally attacking their views and beliefs. That's all I'm saying.

It's amazing to me how much crap like this is ignored by the very same people who love jumping down the throats of others for comments that are not even close to being so insulting, reckless, ignorant, and biased.

smh

I respect that stance IF you apply it to all things, and not just the things you FEEL it should apply to.



So your answer is that young, dumb, and naive people should never have sex unless they want a baby? Come on man, we live in the real world.


No answer is perfect, that is why choice is the only solution IMO. Again, like you, I don't like abortions. I don't believe it is a baby or taking a life, until it is viable on it's own. Honestly, I think life begins at birth. Before that, you are a biological function and nothing more. But I have to admit that the viability argument is a good one. So I go with that. Parents and relatives may mourn for a miscarriage, but other than the mother, they never knew the person they are morning. There are no memories of times spent together, no loss of relationship, just an empty sadness for what COULD have been. And I get that this feeling is very real for them. But for the greater world, the loss is never felt.


So you used a rubber? Big deal. Telling people to not have sex, or ONLY protected sex, damn sure isn't going to end unwanted pregnancies nor abortions. Women have aborted babies since the beginning of history. Making it illegal, just makes it even more dangerous. And if you are pro life, then you MUST consider the lives of the mothers as well. Safe abortion must remain an alternative. But I'd be good with other preventive measures like REALLY EDUCATING KIDS ABOUT SEX/REPRODUCTION, PROVIDING CONTRACEPTIVES FREE OF CHARGE, restricting abortions to 4-5 months in, and mandatory counseling that discusses all sides/beliefs; preparing the woman for either eventuality.

But when 70% of the country wants legal abortions, I'll be damned if I back a move where the religious right gets to force their religion on all of us... NOPE, I will never go along with that. I'll never have an abortion, my wife won't either, so it would be easy to not care how this turns out. But the younger women who may need one, don't have much of advocacy in DC, IMO. You don't see many 20 something women in congress. And the downside of making abortion illegal is horrific. And I know the right will say, killing babies is horrific... because they love to OVER DRAMATIZE their religious and political beliefs. But scraping the cells of an unviable fetus, pales in comparison to back alley abortions and the tragedy it will bring.


EDIT: On a side note, if the incels think it's hard to get laid now, wait until they take away abortions! lmao @ the coddled religious right trying to silence those rapey incels.

No I had it right. Your saying those of us against abortion should shut up and not play be the same rules as those who are for abortion. Also I asked a simple question which you twisted and turned into what you wanted it to say.... not what I said.


Yet you keep your mouth shut and don't say a word about others who bash us that believe abortion is murder. You keep quiet .... why. It seems like you think they are fine to feel the way they do, but those of us disagree are wrong. Not cool bro.

Both sides are wrong for fueling the fire. But you are the one who said you were being attacked. When you say abortion is murder, you're saying anyone who has an abortion is a murderer. Anyone who supports women have a choice supports murder.

I've made it clear time and time again that you have every right to express your feelings on the matter. All I've asked you to do is understand that those you categorize as being guilty or implicit in murder take that as no less of an attack than you do when people throw accusations in your direction. This really isn't complicated and you're reading a lot more into it than is there. I'm not asking you to hide your beliefs. I'm asking you understand how it looks to people who don't feel the same way you do.

It looks exactly the same way to them as it does to you when you feel attacked for your beliefs on abortion.

No I didn't...talk about not understanding what you read. I asked a simple question as to who is doing the most name calling. that is what I asked so stop trying to say I said something I didn't. I wanted an honest answer since I know I am bias., and by the looks of the answers your 100 percent wrong bro. What would you say to those who cail Watson is 100 percent innocent? Would you pertend they are wrong or would you speak up???

The scary thing is if you were to merely and reasonably ask "which ones?"

He would double down with "ALL OF THEM!!"

I am pretty hard core towards both freedom and responsibility. i do draw hard lines when you start harming others, but frankly I want to be left alone to do my thing. I'm not harming anyone, and people who don't like what I do can take a flying leap.




That is not what I said. Being dumb or naive (at any age) does not absolve you of responsibility. Have all the sex you want, be responsible. My point was that people are a lot more educated in where babies come from than they used to be. It is taught earlier and earlier (some might argue too early at times). I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who do something and get caught by the ramification, especially when there are good, proven, ways to avoid it.



I used responsibility. Condoms are one such thing. I'm not telling anyone to have protected or not protected sex. I'm not telling anyone to "pull-n-pray". I'm not telling anyone that "you can't get her pregnant in the other holes". I am saying, and I will keep saying, people need to be responsible for their actions. Yes, even sweaty teen aged romeos who's heart is about to burst from fear of getting what they have been chasing. Be responsible for what you do. If you can't, don't do it. This isn't just about sex, it is about life. Too many people think life comes with a reset button. "oh I just crashed my car into yours and killed yer kid, my bad, but ya know.. I didn't mean it when I was drunk and driving over 100".

And as I said having the mulligan of abortion may provide some measure of responsibility. Keep in mind though that responsibility does imply taking care of things in a timely manner. If abortion was banned after viability but not before and someone couldn't be bothered to take responsibility until week 31 then I don't have a lot of sympathy there either. At some point you have to quit acting like the world owes you and do what needs to be done.



Yeah, it is only the people on the right that can't figure out how to get laid. Too many kids these days are so coddled cause you can't hurt their feelings telling them they don't get a trophy for breathing. Your response was a lot more worthwhile without the last line.

I would speak up, just as I've said over and over again that you should and have every right to do. I've never said otherwise. Here's the big difference. I know and do understand I would get backlash over it and understand why. You don't seem to understand that part.

All I need to prove you wrong is the law. Game, set, match, mike drop.

It's amazing to me that a post bully like you thinks coming into PP is a good idea for your sanity. You are the ONE person on this board that is MY WAY OR NO WAY IN ALL THINGS. So... don't call me those things for calling out what I see. Every other post in PP is over dramatic or complete BS from the oppositions POV. When I make shocking comments, it's rarely my opinion, but more calling it the way I see it. I personally don't have a dog in the abortion fight, neither does GM. But we both come in here aggressively defending our stances... why? Because in today's highly volatile political climate, this seems to be the only way to converse and be heard. Look at the politicians on the right and the crazy crap they say... Would you like to be called a pedo? Or soft and spineless? Or wOkE (as if it's a bad thing) because you are educated? NOPE. I've seen how you react when somebody goes hard at you, same as me. I think some of the crap you say is bat crap crazy too, but I don't call you ignorant and or reckless. AND we are all biased, so get over it.

And right now, legal abortion is the law, has been for 50 years, will be again if this crap actually happens. People will not let this stand. Game, set, match, mike drop.

I said "insulting," not "ignorant."

You have a right to champion hate as a way to deal w/differences of opinion on political, social, and religious issues and I have a right to call you for it because I don't think choosing "hate" over "cooperation" is a way to improve our society.

Pit speaks his mind all over the board GM, everybody knows that. Unless you are going to go along to get along, you have to speak your mind, right or wrong.

Really? You say so much crap YOU can't even keep it straight. And just a slight detail, but I don't champion hate, I fight fire with fire. Slight difference.
And since you are dropping your pearls of wisdom in here today, let me pose this question: I would love to have calm, rational, conversations about these things, like we used to be able to have pre Trump/Obama years. I would like to have conversations that don't get derailed by biased feelings. I would love to have adult conversation with adults across the political spectrum to seek real solutions that we could compromise on and move forward together as one people and one nation again. My question is simple, you should blow me away with you anwer... Where is that type of discourse even possible today?

J/C
Abortions are a deliberate, thought out act. The deliberate act of taking a life.

Call it what you want.

My bad. I did say that. I probably should not have. It was just you saying that Christians are no better than the Taliban that got to me.

It's not a life until it's born. Your argument is this:

Life begins before the first breath

L.A. TIMES ARCHIVES
AUG. 5, 2005 12 AM PT
I rebut the statement that Genesis 2:7 defines the beginning of the soul and life not until a baby’s first breath (letters, Aug. 2). Babies are alive in their mother’s womb and certainly not “inanimate as ‘the dust of the ground.’ ” I believe that along the evolutionary trail God created the first human in his own likeness, with an intellect, free will and an eternal soul. Genesis describes this as God “breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” Long before birth, the product of human fertilization is a human being whose life should be protected from harm (cocaine, abortion, etc.). A baby’s first breath at birth is not the same as God blowing into the face of the first human.

MARIO MICHAEL MARTINI MD

Pacific Palisades

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-aug-05-le-subfriday5.1-story.html

But I think, until birth, the fetus is part of the woman's anatomy and biological functions. I compromise that with viability just BECAUSE it's a delicate subject and nobody want to be called baby killer by the radical extremist right. But independent life begins at birth, always has. I would love to settle this in a new way, when the fetus/baby becomes self-aware, but current science puts that after birth I believe, like when a baby discover it's toes. If at some point it could be proven that invetro self-awareness is a thing, I would accept that as a point where life begins whole heartedly, but I've seen zero studies on that. If they exist, I'd like to see them.

I don't know. I wasn't the best biology student, but I am pretty sure I remember something about a single cell being "life".

It is what it is.