DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Transgendered Athletes

j/c

If we get rid of men's and women's sports and just have generic sports like "basketball".... would make things equal for everyone?

I am not the "right" and I am not "gaslighting."

I am expressing my views as a human being and a defender of women.

Sex Matters: Why Transgender Athletes Must Not Compete Against Biological Females

Nancy Hogshead-Makar knows all about being a champion in the pool, and championing for the rights of female athletes. A four-time medalist at the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles, Hogshead-Makar has long fought for equality in women’s sports and is the head of Champion Women, which advocates for girls and women in sports. Hogshead-Makar wrote the following editorial in response to the controversy surrounding transgender swimmer Lia Thomas.

Inclusion and fairness are two vital values in the world of sports.

Transgender women should be allowed to compete in women’s athletics, so long as these individuals can show that they’ve mitigated the athletic advantages that come with male puberty.



As an Olympic champion and as a civil rights lawyer, I can assure you that there was nothing fair about transgender woman Lia Thomas competing for the University of Pennsylvania in NCAA swimming.

Worse, her domination of the ‘women’s sports’ category has done nothing to engender greater empathy for inclusive practices throughout society for the trans community.

I swam on the U.S. National Team for nine years, from 1976–1984, the same years that East German swimmers dominated women’s competitions by cheating with anabolic steroids.

I was able to win three Olympic gold medals and a silver medal because the East Germans boycotted the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games.

We all knew they were cheating. The boycott announcement was a relief; I knew I’d have a fair shot at winning.

My Olympic gold medals changed the trajectory of my life.

Title IX, the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination, permits sex-segregation in sport – which means that, for the most part, men compete against men, and women compete against women.

Title IX gave me a fair opportunity to win and set records, as well as access to money, accolades, and leadership opportunities.

If Congress and courts had forbidden sex-segregated sports, the way race and religious segregation is prohibited, I would have qualified for my high school team, but I’d never have been the Hall of Famer that I became.

I doubt I’d have competed past high school.

Now imagine if all schools were only responsible for sponsoring one sports team and they put their best students — regardless of gender — on that team.

How many girls and women would make it?

For sure, millions of girls and women would lose out on the educational experience that participation in sports provides. An experience which is also linked to economic success and life-long health.



Trans women should compete with biological women, so long as they can demonstrate that they have lost their sex-linked, male-puberty advantage prior to competition in the women’s category.

Lia Thomas cannot make that demonstration.

While she has apparently been complying with NCAA rules requiring hormone therapy for over 2 ½ years now, she still competes with an unfair advantage.

How do we know Lia Thomas’ performances aren’t fair?

The average differential in the men’s and women’s ‘A’ standard times for NCAA championship qualification is 11.41%; meaning the women’s times are 11%+ slower than the men’s qualification times.

About the same differential occurs if you’re looking at almost any group of swimming records or qualification times between men and women, including regional or USA Swimming qualification times, American records, world records, NCAA records.

The gaps between men and women are generally larger in the sprints than they are in the long-distance events.

So, how big is that 11% advantage in swimming times for male swimmers?

Enormous.

To put it in perspective, Olympic superstar Michael Phelps held just a .08% of an advantage over his U.S. teammate and rival Ian Crocker in the 100 butterfly in the 2004 Olympics.

But Phelps held a 12.62% advantage over the women’s gold medalist, Australian Petria Thomas.

Phelps’ advantage over women equates to over 150 times more than the advantage that Phelps had over his male competitors.

If he had that same 12.62% advantage over his male competitors, he would have swam 6.47 seconds faster than he did to win the gold, or a time of 44.78 seconds.

Meanwhile, the gap between first and eighth in the men’s Olympic final was a tiny gap of just 1.31 seconds.

Lia Thomas, however, was not 11% slower. She was only 2.6% slower than she was pre-transition in the 200-yard freestyle, and just 5.76% slower in the 500-yard freestyle.

That is NOT mitigation. It is NOT fair.

I should add that it isn’t Lia’s fault.

The problem is with the NCAA’s rules that permitted Penn to keep her on their women’s team.

(Prior to the NCAA passing its transgender determination rules to USA Swimming, the governing body for college sports followed this rule).

“A trans female treated with testosterone suppression medication may continue to compete on the men’s team but may not compete on the women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one year of testosterone suppression treatment.”

But ‘one year of testosterone suppression treatment’ was not sufficient to level the playing field between Thomas and her female competitors.

If seven-time U.S. Olympic champion Caeleb Dressel transitioned and was somehow able to mitigate the advantage he gained during male puberty, including any legacy advantage, and then broke women’s swimming events, I’d think this outcome was fair.

Dressel is, after all, a once-in-a-generation athlete.

Thomas was never in that category of standout athlete for the many years she competed as a male.

Thomas proved that the advocates who assured the NCAA and their member schools that male puberty could be rolled back in a single year after consistent hormone treatment were wrong.

The rules should follow the evidence, and in this case it is clear: Thomas should not have been in head-to-head competition with biological females.

2020 research on transgender women athletes by Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg concluded that: “The biological advantage, most notably in terms of muscle mass and strength, conferred by male puberty and thus enjoyed by most transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed as per current sporting guidelines for transgender athletes.”

Thomas qualified and could have competed in the men’s category, or could have competed in an exhibition race (where her results would not count) until the evidence and science catches up with sports practices.


Carrie Steinseifer and Nancy Hogshead at the 1984 Olympics – Photo Courtesy – Swimming World Magazine

In all my years competing with East German women who were doped to the gills, they were only slightly better than the best biological women; not one of them were competitive with men.

Moreover, if I had tested positive for testosterone, I probably would have suffered a four-year suspension from international competition.

But if I tested positive twice? I’d be banned for life.

Because the World Anti-Doping (Agency) knows that long-term testosterone use produces legacy effects that last much longer than just during the time it is used.

Critics of mine will likely ask: what about the goals of transgender inclusion in sport?

We know that transgender students are subject to bullying and high rates of suicide.

The argument is that girls and women should step aside and make way for transgender athletes to compete in the ‘girls’ and women’s’ sports categories, considering the blatant discrimination they face.

I say — no.

Girls and women shouldn’t give up their hard-won sports opportunities, no matter how real the harms suffered by transgender athletes.

Allowing transgender women to change the meaning of the women’s category makes as much sense as allowing 180-pound athletes into the 120-pound weight category, because larger athletes were subject to awful bullying and harassment.

Or allowing adults to compete against children, or only permitting impoverished nations compete in the Olympics.

Sport has been set up as binary with males and females, and sport needs to adapt by adding new events and classifications, rather than throwing out the meaning of the ‘girls’ and women’s’ categories.

Rather than trying to squeeze transgender athletes into one-of-two categories, male or female, sport needs to adapt.

I’ve now been an advocate for Title IX, the federal law requiring schools to prohibit sex discrimination, since the 1984 Olympics when I won my medals.

As a civil rights lawyer, I run Champion Women, a non-profit that provides legal advocacy for girls and women in sports. We produce data — for athletes, families, alumni and donors – which demonstrates just how badly 90% of colleges and universities are discriminating against women.

In total, women are denied over 183,000 opportunities to play collegiate sports, they’re denied over a billion dollars in athletic scholarships, and hundreds and millions of dollars in treatment, meaning women aren’t being given equal facilities, locker rooms, medical care, publicity, travel, and so forth.

I’ve never met a single female athlete that couldn’t list the ways they’re getting second-class treatment as compared to their male football or basketball players.

In those 38 years, I’ve never heard a single man say, ‘Oh you women face such overwhelming sex discrimination throughout society, particularly in sexual harassment and violence. Here, take our athletic facilities and scholarships.’

Quite the opposite.

The unwritten rule is that women’s sports can exist, so long as not a single male is harmed by women’s inclusion.

And yet, notice that women are expected to graciously move over and let trans athlete-inclusion change the meaning of the ‘women’s sports’ category.

It is sexist; we’d never allow the meaning of NCAA ‘men’s sports’ category to change so that current NFL and NBA teams could be included.

We’d never allow 25-year-old men to compete in boy’s high school events. And we would never tell those boys to just ‘work harder’ if they wanted to win.

I am ready to hear men’s outrage. I am ready for men to step up and make sports equality happen for women’s sports.

Lia Thomas showed all of us that the current rules are not fair and forcing her into the women’s category only engenders resentment.

That doesn’t mean, however, that transgender athletes should be excluded from the many benefits of sport.

Instead, sport must adapt in creative ways that are not harmful to the women’s category.


https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.c...-not-compete-against-biological-females/

All one has to do is watch the MMA fight where the difference was disgustingly obvious. No link, as I have no desire to ever see that again, but it's easily googled.

All one has to do is watch the MMA fight where the difference was disgustingly obvious. No link, as I have no desire to ever see that again, but it's easily googled.

Here is a good question, how big an issue is this, really? How many trans people play sports against the opposite sex they were born as in reality? I can't imagine that trans people all together make up more than an infinitesimally small percentage... Is it really worth even being worked up about? Personally, I think this is a gaslighting issue for the right. They are really good at getting people whipped up into a frenzy over NADA, imo.

If your daughter worked her entire life to be a swimmer and lost her Olympic spot to a swimmer who, up until a couple years ago, was is a 6'3" man... .

Track Athletes Taking a Stand to Defend Women’s Sports

The Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell, and Alanna Smith Stories

UPDATE: Two more ADF clients take a stand for women's sports at the Ninth Circuit. Don't let them stand alone.

Male athletes have been dominating girls’ high school track and field events in Connecticut.

Yes. You heard that right.

Two male athletes who identify as female have won 15 women’s high school track championships that were once held by nine different girls in the state of Connecticut. Young women are losing athletic opportunities, dreams of competing at the next level, and even potential scholarships.

Thankfully, female athletes like Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell, and Alanna Smith are taking a public stand against the harmful policies that allow this to happen.

Edged out by males competing as girls
Selina Soule
Connecticut high school runner Selina Soule lost the opportunity to compete for a spot in the New England Regional Championships because two biological males who identify as female competed in her event.

At the 2019 Connecticut Indoor Track & Field State Championships, Selina finished one place away from qualifying for finals, and the opportunity to compete for a qualifying spot at the New England Regional Championships in the 55-meter dash. The first and second spots in the race were taken by two male athletes. This was a massive disappointment for Selina. It meant she had to sit on the sidelines instead of competing in front of college scouts!

Had those two biological boys not been allowed to compete, Selina could have qualified to run the 55-meter event at the New England regionals. The male who won Selina’s race set a girls’ state indoor record of 6.95 seconds in the 55-meter dash and went on to win the New England titles in both the 55-meter dash and the 300-meter dash.

But Selina wasn’t the only one impacted.


Chelsea Mitchell lost four state championship titles to male athletes.

A talented high school sprinter, Chelsea Mitchell was pursuing her dreams. She was on the road to achieving state titles and awards as a female track and field athlete in Connecticut until the two males showed up at the starting line.

Because of their biological advantage, these male athletes began to win these accolades that rightfully belonged to Chelsea. Four times, she lost a state championship title to a male athlete.

Alanna Smith
Alanna Smith is talented, and she trains hard. But in the end, she knows that will never be enough if she is forced to compete against males.

And then there’s Alanna Smith.

Alanna won the 400-meter dash at the 74th New England Interscholastic Track & Field Championships in June 2019 … as a freshman. She has a promising track career in front of her. Fortunately, no male athletes raced in the 400m dash at that meet—though a male athlete did compete in, and win, the 200m dash, bumping Alanna down to 3rd place. Alanna knows that being forced to compete against male athletes could threaten her opportunities to win championship titles and even earn scholarships.

That’s why Selina, Chelsea, and Alanna are taking a stand against policies that allow men to compete in women’s sports.

A growing problem
After first filing a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education, Selina, Chelsea, and Alanna filed a lawsuit against the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (CIAC). The outcome of this case could impact young women nationwide.

Activists continue to oppose efforts to protect women’s sports at every turn. If they get their way, female athletes will soon end up on the sidelines of their own sports.

Selina Soule and Alanna Smith
Selina Soule and Alanna Smith are taking a stand to ensure female athletes like them can compete on a level playing field.

It’s very frustrating and heartbreaking when us girls are at the start of the race and we already know that these athletes are going to come out and win no matter how hard you try, Selina said. They took away the spots of deserving girls, athletes … me being included.

Selina, Chelsea, and Alanna are just a few examples. But this problem is growing. You can help defend Selina, Chelsea, Alanna and other female athletes being forced to compete against males. Read more about their case below.

Is this the end for women’s athletics?
Female athletes have made great strides since 1972, when Title IX was passed. Since then, girls have been given many of the same opportunities as their male counterparts.

But now, in schools across our country, those opportunities are being stripped away from female athletes. These girls are losing their spots at high-level competitions. But it’s not because their schools don’t offer their particular sports. And it’s not because they’re not good enough or don’t work hard enough.

It’s because the spots of these female athletes are going to biological males who identify as female. And that means these female athletes, who have worked so hard and for so long to achieve their dream, are losing opportunities to compete in front of college scouts.

“Allowing boys to compete in girls’ sports reverses nearly 50 years of advances for women … We shouldn’t force these young women to be spectators in their own sport.”

—ADF Legal Counsel Christiana Holcomb
That’s exactly what happened to Selina, Chelsea, and Alanna. And that’s exactly why Alliance Defending Freedom filed a lawsuit against the CIAC.

After the CIAC adopted a policy that allows biological males who identify as female to compete in girls’ athletic events, boys have consistently deprived female athletes of honors and opportunities to compete at elite levels.

Crying foul against unfairness
The lawsuit demonstrates that the CIAC’s policy and others like it violate Title IX.

Title IX was designed to eliminate discrimination against women in education and athletics, and women fought long and hard to earn the equal athletic opportunities that Title IX provides, said Alliance Defending Freedom Legal Counsel Christiana Holcomb. Allowing boys to compete in girls’ sports reverses nearly 50 years of advances for women under this law. We shouldn’t force these young women to be spectators in their own sports.


Unless these flawed policies are overturned, female athletics could become completely dominated by biological males, robbing girls and women of countless opportunities.

As an athlete, it can be disappointing to narrowly miss a goal—to be one spot from medaling or a hundredth of a second from a qualifying time.

Selina and her fellow female athletes train countless hours to shave mere fractions of seconds off their race times, said Holcomb. They put in that effort in hope of the personal satisfaction of victory, and opportunity to participate in state and regional meets, or a chance at a college scholarship. But girls competing against boys know the outcome before the race even starts: They can’t win. Boys will always have physical advantages over girls; that’s the reason we have women’s sports.

Recap the video for me, bro. I don't feel like watching a 16 minute video on a video that started off very shaky. I'll take your word for things.

Thank you for the excellent summary. I appreciate that.

We are not going to agree on this one and that's okay. I just want to make sure you understand that my main goal was to champion the rights of women and not to degrade trans. It's why I brought up coaches in the the WNBA and NBA and women's college hoops and other sports. Men don't have to take every damn thing from women.

Anyway, thanks again for explaining the video to me because I was too lazy to watch it. I do appreciate that. And bro, if you are not already doing it [you probably are] make sure that your daughters understand that they don't need no man to make it in life and they are capable of anything they put their mind to. We need to empower females.

I can understand some of what she said but disagreed with a good bit of it... she (and you) are correct that some win the genetic lottery which can help an athlete... no matter what drive I have, I'm never becoming a professional basketball player... but just because Lebron won the genetic lottery that didn't guarantee he'd be a world class athlete... there's more than genetics that goes into sports...

where I really disagree is that while it's true there are 'unfair' advantages for those who have better genes suited for specific sport... those genes are natural... most sports have always banned significant artificial advantages like performance enhancing drugs... there's still a bit of a slippery slope on what's allowed and what's not... but in general, significant artificial advantages have always been banned...

a biological male transitioning to a transgender female, specifically after puberty, could (and IMO should) be viewed as an artificial means to improve ones genetic make up for most sports (swimming, basketball, MMA, etc)...

While I don't necessarily agree with the IOC's rules on transgender athletes, I think it's about the best you can do if you are going to allow transgender athletes to compete.. it gets much slipperier though when you start to talk about high school and younger athletes..

Caitlyn Jenner says hi.

That's freaking awesome! On all accounts. Bro, being a great parent is so f.......important. It's a lot of work, but damn, it's worth it. You and your wife are doing a great job!