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#1945580 05/19/22 09:54 AM
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I have been a fan of sports since I can remember. My introduction to sports was boxing. My godfather was a heavyweight. My father's friends were fighters. When I was small back in the 50's my dad's friends would come over and watch Wednesday night at the fights.

I was taught how to box at five. I like competition. Like most every kid I had sports heros like Mickey Mantle. As I turned into an adult I came to realize all people had flaws. Sports had bad people like any profession.

I am a homer for my teams. I root for them. I want to win. In the end to me it all about team. Players come and go. I still want my teams to win championships no matter who is on the team. I would like to like all the players. However, that is not always the case. I am ok with that. I don't have a need to like a player.

Marcel Ozuna plays for the Braves. He choked his wife. He was suspended. He was a high priced free agent. He is back on the team. I have no feeling towards him. He and his wife are back together. I don't know him and don't care to know him. But when he comes up to the plate with men on base. I want him to drive in runs. I want the Braves to win the game.

I don't know Baker or Watson. I don't give a damn what others think about either.

Whoever, is playing for the Browns what I care about is winning the game. I would like to like the guy. But I don't have to.

Watson is a better player than Baker. Baker is not a bad quarterback.

Whoever, is the quarterback of the Browns. I want them to win the game. Period.

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bonefish #1945594 05/19/22 10:41 AM
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Some people treat team sports like individual sports. If you are a NASCAR fan, you like a driver. You don't really care if he switches ownership teams.

For me, in team sports, I root for the team. The players simply come and go. You are a Braves fan. I don't think it has crossed your mind to root for the Dodgers because Freddie Freeman went there this season even though you like Freeman.

Some people aren't like that. They switch hats all the time.


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Ballpeen #1945600 05/19/22 10:59 AM
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When Freddie left. I was upset. I hated it.

But I got over it quick. Once Matt Olson came to bat. I wanted him to win the game. I will always like Freddie.

Unless he is playing the Braves.


bonefish #1945636 05/19/22 01:14 PM
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Some people have guardrails and limits. Some don't. Everyone is different. I think you can root for a team and not be a fan of that team. I root for players and follow more than one NFL team. To be a fan is short for being a fanatic. As is usually the case, being the fanatic is something I find very hard to do anymore. Owners make decisions as to who they go out and get for their teams and who they don't. Financially supporting a team means you are supporting the person who makes the most money whether one wishes to look at it that way or not. That's the owner. I've seen what blind loyalty can lead to. Be that in politics or anything else. I don't see that in a positive light nor something I wish to follow. I don't begrudge those who do however. It's simply not a one size fits all situation.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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bonefish #1945641 05/19/22 01:51 PM
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I only have 1 team I can root for in any sport. That's not the same as 'pulling' for a team. Every time I've sat down and watched the SB, I've decided who I'm going to pull for.

But I can only be a fan of 1 team. I actually tried to quit the Browns shortly after I moved from OH to southern California, but just couldn't.

I'm also a "fan" of individual players. I'll root for Jarvis except for when he's playing the Browns because I appreciate him and what he brought to my team. Similarly, I'll be a Baker fan so long as he's not playing against the Browns. Other guys just have good stories (it was Ogunjobi that was morbidly obese as a teen and decided to get in shape, started playing football... and the rest is history). If it's a feel-good story that "gets me"... I'll root for that guy.



On the flipside, the NFL is full of guys with checkered pasts (top to bottom, players-coaches-GMs-owners). The truth is that pretty much everyone who has rooted for an NFL team has had to ignore bad behavior at some point or another in order to cheer for their respective team. For some people it's easier than others, and I'm not trying to put anyone down. Previously, the way we were able to acquire Kareem Hunt was under some pretty ugly circumstances (he got released for kicking a pregnant girl). I guess there were enough mitigating circumstances, punishments, etc to help the fanbase as a whole look past the whole thing and not think about it too much. Now we have the Watson situation. I really don't want to re-hash that whole thing, but it is applicable to your post.... if he really is the monster some are convinced he is, then I'm really not sure about my Browns fandom. The guy is going to be QB1, and he's going to make plays. Can I really cheer for him knowing his treatment of women (assuming he's done everything he's being accused of)? And where is the line? What if he's only done half of what he's been accused of? Ray Lewis has a statue in Baltimore, Jim Brown was put in the Ring of Honor and still gets trotted out in front of Browns crowds despite his past with women. Guys don't get to play in the NFL because they conduct themselves like choir boys. There's a whole bunch of bad behavior that has and continues to be swept under the rug simply because they play pro FB. If we are establishing/shifting the line of what's not-ok, then I just hope we know what we're actually doing and are consistent.


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PitDAWG #1945644 05/19/22 01:55 PM
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Financially supporting a team?

I don't go to games. I don't look at it as supporting an owner. Sports is entertainment to me.

I am on no jury. There are owners and players who personally I would have nothing to do with.

I watch my teams and hope they win the game on that day. And that is all. The game that day.

The rest is not so important to me. I don't expect to be breaking bread with anyone in the sports world. What they do with their lives means little to me.

My world is small. And I live on it with those close to me.

I enjoy discussions about football. Outside of pure football the rest is mostly gossip. It makes no difference to me if people hate Baker or Watson. They are entitled to their own views. I have no interest in who they are as people. I just want to win the game that day with the players who are on the team.

When the game is over. I am on to something else.

Blind loyalty? Politics? Not related IMO.

What is the score and how much time is left?


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I think once someone has paid for their transgressions and tried to make amends is a situation that's far different than those who haven't. As human beings we all make mistakes. It's what and how we move forward from there that makes a huge difference. As for Jim Brown he was retired and long gone from this team before the things he did were common knowledge. I think most people agree that as a human being he's a POS. Kareem did wrong by any standard yet he apologized and paid a hefty piece for his behavior.

I understand exactly what you're saying and you put it in context. Nobody is looking for choir boys. But some people feel the need to draw the line somewhere.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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bonefish #1945653 05/19/22 02:10 PM
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You have chosen not to follow the money and rely only on blind fandom of players and a team. That's certainly your prerogative to do so. I on the other hand do not. You don't have to love Baker or hate watson to decide your position on each one. That's a typical myth that's being perpetuated which simply isn't true for many posters. I hate that the owner and powers that be made a choice to associate and inflict watson on this fan base considering the current circumstances. If you don't that's fine. But please don't sit here and pretend there's no cause for me to feel differently than you do about it.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Ballpeen #1945660 05/19/22 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Some people treat team sports like individual sports.

I think this is the first time I have not been accused of being a "Player" fan. Defended the majority, if not all, the names on the QB jersey. Defended the soldier. Defended Flash.

Maybe the issue for me is we brought in someone with really disturbing known concerns and he wasn't a Browns player first. But I don't think so. Maybe I am burned out on the "This time he will be different". But I don't think so.

Somebody on Reddit made the comment "I can still be a Browns fan and dislike Watson." I've settled there. I am not hoping Watson blows up and costs us big, I am fearing it.

LexDawg #1945661 05/19/22 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LexDawg
Somebody on Reddit made the comment "I can still be a Browns fan and dislike Watson." I've settled there. I am not hoping Watson blows up and costs us big, I am fearing it.


This is the part I can't really wrap my brain around. Dude is going to be a big part of a potent offense. The way I see it, there's no way we can avoid cheering for Watson.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Somebody on Reddit made the comment "I can still be a Browns fan and dislike Watson." I've settled there. I am not hoping Watson blows up and costs us big, I am fearing it.


This is the part I can't really wrap my brain around. Dude is going to be a big part of a potent offense. The way I see it, there's no way we can avoid cheering for Watson.

There really isn't. If you want the team to succeed, you are hoping that Watson performs well. There's no getting around it. Pit (and the ones that are more Baker than Browns fan) is the only one walking the walk by denouncing his fanhood.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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jfanent #1945668 05/19/22 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Somebody on Reddit made the comment "I can still be a Browns fan and dislike Watson." I've settled there. I am not hoping Watson blows up and costs us big, I am fearing it.


This is the part I can't really wrap my brain around. Dude is going to be a big part of a potent offense. The way I see it, there's no way we can avoid cheering for Watson.

There really isn't. If you want the team to succeed, you are hoping that Watson performs well. There's no getting around it. Pit (and the ones that are more Baker than Browns fan) is the only one walking the walk by denouncing his fanhood.

So if Baker had to come back and play for the Browns do you instantly start liking him, if after weeks or months of trashing him? Or do you hope the team succeeds even if he is the QB.

I always look at things as Plug and Play when evaluating if I have a bias. In this instance it is "Do I want the Browns to succeed if X is the QB?" if I really care what X is I have a bias. I don't want the Browns to do poorly if Watson is our QB, I want the team to succeed and him too. It doesn't change the way I feel about him.

LexDawg #1945671 05/19/22 03:12 PM
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I was hoping Baker would be our starter going into this season, I haven't trashed him for months. If he's the Browns qb, then I absolutely want him to do well.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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bonefish #1945672 05/19/22 03:15 PM
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I had favorite teams in various sports, especially as a kid.

In the NFL, I loved the Baltimore Colts when I was a kid and Johnny Unitas was my favorite player. I eventually became a huge Browns fan.

I liked the Chiefs in the old AFL. Guys like Curly Culp, Otis Taylor, Buck Buchanon, Jim Lynch, Willie Lanier, etc.

I loved the Knicks in the NBA when I was a kid. Willis Reed, Walt "Clyde" Frazier, Earl the Pearl, etc. I eventually loved the Cavs, especially the era w/Mark Price and company.

College football has always been all about The Ohio State Buckeyes.

I loved UCLA back in the day in college hoops.

I grew up a Pittsburgh Pirates fan and Roberto Clemente was my favorite player.

I liked the Detroit Red Wings in hockey. They have a great fan base, or at least they used to.

jfanent #1945673 05/19/22 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jfanent
Pit (and the ones that are more Baker than Browns fan) is the only one walking the walk by denouncing his fanhood.

I know you didn't point the finger directly at me but for anyone in question, here is my opinion about the Baker vs watson thing. To me they are two totally different issues. Baker is certainly not a top tier NFL QB. I think it's the duty of every owner and FO to try and get the best player they can find at every position to improve their team. From a personal standpoint I would have embraced and supported it if they had acquired Russell Wilson as an example. A clear upgrade at the position without a ton of baggage.

For those who do not know, I attended my first Browns game as a small child. In 1964 to be exact. I had been a Browns fan from that point forward. I've seen players come and go. Some of which I was a huge fan of as a player. One of which which was Bernie Kosar. At that point in my adult life nothing in football upset me more than moving on to Vinny Testaverde. Nothing made me happier than watching Bernie come in and play as the back-up for Dallas and helping them win games which helped lead them to the SB and Bernie getting a SB ring.

But that never stopped me from being a Browns fan. This is an entirely different situation and Baker has nothing to do with it.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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PitDAWG #1945674 05/19/22 03:19 PM
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I thought I made it clear. You are entitled to feel however you wish.

When I read a book and I am enjoying the story. I don't care if the author is alive or dead. I have no reason to care about the person.

I am enjoying the book.

How others feel about Haslam, Watson, Baker, or Ray Lewis doesn't matter to me. If on the other hand a guy cheats on the field or uses drugs to enhance his performance. He is cheating the other competitors of the game. Not good in my book.

I can like a player say JOK. I like him as a player. He also seems like a cool guy. But I really do not know.

I have read where others said they will feel stained somehow if the Browns won a SB and Watson was the qb. I would not feel that way at all.

What if Watson were to go on later in life and be a patron for women who have been abused. Would that somehow make the SB win ok? The team won the SB. For all we know maybe the fifty third player on the roster is a child molester and nobody ever found out.

The history of sports is filled with bad people and ugly events. If you enjoy sports. You watch. If what happens outside the field is upsetting to you and you feel you can not watch it. Then don't. Perfectly fine.
In the end every person looks in the mirror and has to live with who they see.

I don't know where the whole Watson story will go. If he was a bad guy. I hope he becomes a better man. If they suspend him. I hope whoever is playing quarterback can win the game.


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So as long as it happens on the field it's an issue. But what happens off the field doesn't matter. Got it.

You have no power to make your decisions based on what you do not know. You do have the power to make your decisions on the things you do know.

Let me know if and when watson makes amends for the things he's done. Then we can talk further.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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jfanent #1945679 05/19/22 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jfanent
I was hoping Baker would be our starter going into this season, I haven't trashed him for months. If he's the Browns qb, then I absolutely want him to do well.

Apologies, the question was meant to be a response to you but not saying you were doing anything. I was thinking of it as a hypothetical. If you trashed Baker for weeks or months and the Browns end up starting him do you quit being a Browns fan or start liking him?

To me the idea that you have to like a person because he is a Brown ignores the fact that for years we haven't at times. Browns fans have hated Couch, Jackson, Haslam to pick off three different names off the top of my head.

I'd like to point out I said "I can be a Browns fan and dislike Watson" not I can be a Browns fan and hope Watson fails. My greatest concern around Watson is that we gave up a ton for him, with questionable issues that can impact the Browns. If he was in Houston I wouldn't give him a second thought at this point.

Last edited by LexDawg; 05/19/22 03:27 PM.
bonefish #1945682 05/19/22 03:39 PM
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I was thinking about my favorite teams and players after I responded to your first post. I realized that almost all of my favorite players were when I was a kid. I really don't have many favorite players now. I like Nick Chubb a lot, but I would never go out of my way to follow him. It seems kind of weird to me how grown men can love one player so much, but again, that's just me. I'll stick to rooting for my "teams."

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So as long as it happens on the field it's an issue. But what happens off the field doesn't matter. Got it.

You have no power to make your decisions based on what you do not know. You do have the power to make your decisions on the things you do know.

Let me know if and when watson makes amends for the things he's done. Then we can talk further.
I'm kinda in the place where I've separated the game from the person. I'm a Browns fan first and foremost. This thing stinks... and as far as your last statement, it will stink for a while because there won't be a shred of "amends" until everything is done in the courts. He's basically in a position where even saying "sorry" will get blown up like he is admitting guilt.

I'm in limbo and trying to be as fair as possible despite the fact that our QB is a pervert. When this is all done, if he doesn't have the fortitude to admit wrongdoing and apologize, I won't have much respect for "Deshaun the person".


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
PitDAWG #1945684 05/19/22 04:33 PM
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"But what happens off the field doesn't matter. Got it."

I don't think you do.

It matters but I don't control it. Nothing I do changes a thing. How I feel about it? Matters to me alone.

If Watson is scum? How I feel does not change him. Likewise if he is a good guy. I don't feel a need to pass character judgement on every player.

I don't know these people. I am not on a jury to determine their guilt or innocence. When this all reaches a conclusion. I may think he is scum.

That does not mean I want the Browns to lose if he is the quarterback.

Mike Tyson is a convicted rapest. I don't hold a high opinion of Mike Tyson. I still went to his fights. I didn't go hoping he would win. I went for the excitement of the competition.

I am ok with the guy in the mirror.

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I am a fan of the Cleveland Browns!!

Unfortunatly the Browns are not going to sniff a championship in the next 2 seasons, and I'm pretty sure just (cough) years of casually watching the NFL makes that a blatantly obvious statement.
They are averse to conventional football wisdom.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Once I grab on to a team, or more accurately, they grab on to me, I’m all in. I liked the Cowboys as a little kid in the 70s, abandoned them in the Chargers’ Dan Fouts era, but fell for the Browns hard in January, 1988.

I’ve been a Leafs fan since I knew what hockey was. I was a diehard Expos fan, now I follow the Mets but it isn’t a passion. If the Expos were to return it’s ‘see ya, Mets’.

As for players, I develop somewhat of an attachment to a few of them, like Kosar, Couch and Baker (shut up Vers, lol), but when they’re gone I get over it fast. Still a fan of the team first.

My no.1 sports hero as a kid was Leafs’ hall of famer Darryl Sittler. Many years later, I interviewed him for the newspaper I worked for at the time, and was a puddle of nerves.


He was awesome though, and after him, nobody made me nervous to interview and that includes Canadian Prime Ministers. Not lying.

Sittler broke my cherry, you might say. After him, nobody impressed me that much.


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bonefish #1945725 05/19/22 10:32 PM
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Unless everyone who responds to this topic is a pro or semi professional athlete of some sport(s) other than football, I don't see why it would be in the Tailgate forum.

But the reasoning and criteria that goes into the forums of this board has been a puzzle I just will never solve. wink


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted by bonefish
I have been a fan of sports since I can remember. My introduction to sports was boxing. My godfather was a heavyweight. My father's friends were fighters. When I was small back in the 50's my dad's friends would come over and watch Wednesday night at the fights.

I was taught how to box at five. I like competition. Like most every kid I had sports heros like Mickey Mantle. As I turned into an adult I came to realize all people had flaws. Sports had bad people like any profession.

I am a homer for my teams. I root for them. I want to win. In the end to me it all about team. Players come and go. I still want my teams to win championships no matter who is on the team. I would like to like all the players. However, that is not always the case. I am ok with that. I don't have a need to like a player.

Marcel Ozuna plays for the Braves. He choked his wife. He was suspended. He was a high priced free agent. He is back on the team. I have no feeling towards him. He and his wife are back together. I don't know him and don't care to know him. But when he comes up to the plate with men on base. I want him to drive in runs. I want the Braves to win the game.

I don't know Baker or Watson. I don't give a damn what others think about either.

Whoever, is playing for the Browns what I care about is winning the game. I would like to like the guy. But I don't have to.

Watson is a better player than Baker. Baker is not a bad quarterback.

Whoever, is the quarterback of the Browns. I want them to win the game. Period.

I would like to feel like this, but I don't want to feel like I need a shower after every win. Sports, teams, and fandom are far from being important enough to endorse a known bad actor to the degree DW is accused IMO. Personal feelings won't allow it for me. And I'll probably watch because I love my team, but it won't be the same. PERIOD.

This is why I remain hopeful he can clear his name. This cloud the DW deal brought to the franchise might be a step too far for me and like you said, players come and go, so I would have zero problem taking a few years break if it turns out he's a rapey scumbag. But I find it extremely hard to believe with all the praise he had of being a stand up guy before this scandal. When I read about the accusations he made against ownership being racist, then suddenly this scandal comes out... it really starts to smell fishy. Big money can easily cause big career ending problems like this, but so can stupidity and amorality. Hopefully we eventually get resolution to which DW is. Meanwhile, all any of us can really do is watch and wait.

It's looking like we won't know before this season, and that will be uncomfortable for many, even if he's presumed innocent unless proven guilty. It might not be a bad idea for the Browns to play Baker (it won't happen) to manage perceptions and a lot of turmoil from outside of the organization. But with money on the line, they'll march out DW and endure the scrutiny. I can see the Captain Rapey memes on game days already.

And with the political times we are in, it won't surprise me a bit to see protests outside the stadium on game days all year. In progressive circles, there was talk of a women's march for the 22 accusers when the deal news first came out, but when the ROE news broke everything else they are planning seems to have died on the vine.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 05/19/22 11:10 PM.

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Every fan has the right to take this on their terms.

Civil cases determine compensation and liabliity not guilt or innocence. I don't know where this will end.

No matter what over time it will fade. Some will maintain however they felt. DW will go on with his career. My guess is he will continue to be the guy he has been except there will never be another incident with him about anything outside the field. That he will give back and try to regain his reputation.

For some the cloud will remain. And that is ok.

My view is. Players play games. I watch games because I like competition. I like some players. I dislike others. Some can be on my teams. Others can be on other teams. I can not expect all players to be great people.

I would like Deshaun to end up being a good man. But how I feel has about as much impact has how I want the score to end.

So I will continue to want the Browns to win games no matter who is on the team.

PitDAWG #1945738 05/20/22 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Some people have guardrails and limits. Some don't. Everyone is different. I think you can root for a team and not be a fan of that team. I root for players and follow more than one NFL team. To be a fan is short for being a fanatic. As is usually the case, being the fanatic is something I find very hard to do anymore. Owners make decisions as to who they go out and get for their teams and who they don't. Financially supporting a team means you are supporting the person who makes the most money whether one wishes to look at it that way or not. That's the owner. I've seen what blind loyalty can lead to. Be that in politics or anything else. I don't see that in a positive light nor something I wish to follow. I don't begrudge those who do however. It's simply not a one size fits all situation.

I don't support Jimmy Haslam. I support the Cleveland Browns. I purchase season tickets because I want to go to games and thankfully have to ability to do so. Don't try to make it sound like the primary reason you don't go to games is because you don't want to support the owner.

I am not passing judgment on anything else. I am just saying that you saying it's because you don't want to support the owner of a football team doesn't fly.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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bonefish #1945767 05/20/22 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bonefish
Every fan has the right to take this on their terms.

Civil cases determine compensation and liabliity not guilt or innocence. I don't know where this will end.


Actually the difference between criminal and civil is that civil has a lower standard of guilt, not no guilt. In criminal you must be guilty beyond reasonable doubt, in civil is by a preponderance of the evidence.

bonefish #1945770 05/20/22 10:45 AM
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The great thing about being a fan is that it is a completely and entirely personal endeavor and as such, absolutely nobody gets to define your fandom but yourself. Anyone that claims stuff like "you're not a TRUE fan if " is just full of their own crap and can be safely ignored.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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LexDawg #1945771 05/20/22 10:45 AM
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"Criminal laws are the rules that apply when someone commits a crime, such as assault, robbery, murder, arson, rape and other kinds of crimes. After a person is arrested and charged with a crime, that person goes to a Criminal Court.

Civil law refers to almost all other disputes—these are the rules that apply when one person sues another person, a business or agency. This can cover a housing case such as for eviction or foreclosure, a family case such as divorce or custody, consumer problems such as debt or bankruptcy, or when someone sues for money because of damage to property or personal harm. All of these cases go to a Civil Court.

The judges in criminal and civil court have different powers. Criminal Court judges can punish you for breaking the law by sending you to jail. Civil Court judges can order you to pay money or a fine, or make decisions about your family or your home. "

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Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
The great thing about being a fan is that it is a completely and entirely personal endeavor and as such, absolutely nobody gets to define your fandom but yourself. Anyone that claims stuff like "you're not a TRUE fan if <insert ridiculous qualifier here>" is just full of their own crap and can be safely ignored.

The above is worth repeating.

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That is a belief that I have maintained.

However, being critical of players or coaches IMO should be kept on what happens on the field of play.

When it comes to off field actions there is way more speculation unless there are indisputable facts.

Andy Reid's son Britt was drunk when he struck a vehicle and injured people. His blood alcohol .113: .08 is legal limit. He was doing 84mph.

Facts.

We don't know Baker or Watson. We read what others say. We don't have facts - yet.

In Watson's case we may never have the facts. We will have testimony.

Fans can believe what they choose to believe or not to believe.

bonefish #1945780 05/20/22 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bonefish
"But what happens off the field doesn't matter. Got it."

I don't think you do.

It matters but I don't control it. Nothing I do changes a thing. How I feel about it? Matters to me alone.

If Watson is scum? How I feel does not change him. Likewise if he is a good guy. I don't feel a need to pass character judgement on every player.

I don't know these people. I am not on a jury to determine their guilt or innocence. When this all reaches a conclusion. I may think he is scum.

That does not mean I want the Browns to lose if he is the quarterback.

Mike Tyson is a convicted rapest. I don't hold a high opinion of Mike Tyson. I still went to his fights. I didn't go hoping he would win. I went for the excitement of the competition.

I am ok with the guy in the mirror.

And I have no problem with any of that. I want to concentrate the part in bold. Much as yourself I have no control over anything someone else or the decisions that this owner and FO made. What I do have control over is how I react to it. I have control over me. I have control over my decision to support it or not. I'm not going to try to justify to myself that I can separate the person for the player. I'm not going to try to convince myself the people who own and control this team didn't make the decision to take on this player no matter the implications.

Now maybe you don't feel the need to do that and that's fine. Maybe there are a certain amount of people that have no problem separating the player from the person, the teams decisions and making that distinction. And that's fine if that's the way you're wired. I'm just explaining that that's not the way I work.

For me there are 32 NFL teams. I love the game. Each Sunday there are several other games I can watch for the "excitement". And believe me if the Browns are on national TV or are a part of my local coverage I will watch them. This doesn't mean I hate the Browns.

And don't get me wrong. I'm not going to root against the Browns. You see I've been on one form of this forum or another since 1999. In that time I've met a lot of good Browns fans. I've made friends with a lot of them. I'm not going to root against a team that my friends are such huge fans of. I'm just no longer a "fanatic" of this team. Each of us see things on an individual basis. My conscience simply will not allow it.

We all have priorities and where things fall on that priority list. The fact that there are other people whose list is different than mine is not something I will pass judgement on. I'm just hoping people can understand why mine may be quite different than their own.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Ballpeen #1945781 05/20/22 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I don't support Jimmy Haslam. I support the Cleveland Browns. I purchase season tickets because I want to go to games and thankfully have to ability to do so. Don't try to make it sound like the primary reason you don't go to games is because you don't want to support the owner.

I am not passing judgment on anything else. I am just saying that you saying it's because you don't want to support the owner of a football team doesn't fly.

If that's the impression you have gotten I haven't conveyed my opinion very well. That is only one ingredient in the recipe. But if you're being honest with yourself, every time you purchase those season tickets it does support Jimmy Haslam no matter how you slice it. The culmination of the ingredients is Deshawn Watson himself. It's the owner and FO's decision to sign him and bring him to Cleveland. But in regards to it being because I "dislike the owner" you are 100% correct. I was never a fan of Art Modell. Never! But that dislike wasn't over what I consider such an egregious topic as this. Like i said above. We all have our own priority list.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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bonefish #1945792 05/20/22 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bonefish

However, being critical of players or coaches IMO should be kept on what happens on the field of play.

I agree with you, but there are (should be, IMO) situations that rise above this general rule.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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PitDAWG #1945794 05/20/22 02:09 PM
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No problem from me.

Completely understand.

bonefish #1945796 05/20/22 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bonefish


However, being critical of players or coaches IMO should be kept on what happens on the field of play.


Eh, maybe, maybe not. Actually, I would say absolutely not; everything is fair game.

We're just the public-at-large. We are not the employer. We are not the judicial system.
As such, we also only get the version(s) of things that people involved want us to have, and with that, we are ABSOLUTELY FREE to judge and be critical as we see fit with the information we have.
It's the right of those involved to withhold information from the public. It is also the right of the public to weigh in unabashedly with the little bits they are allowed to be spoon-fed.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
The great thing about being a fan is that it is a completely and entirely personal endeavor and as such, absolutely nobody gets to define your fandom but yourself. Anyone that claims stuff like "you're not a TRUE fan if <insert ridiculous qualifier here>" is just full of their own crap and can be safely ignored.

The above is worth repeating.
I will just disagree a little. There is nothing that rubs me the wrong way more than the phrase "second favorite team"...

If you say you are a fan of the Browns but you also really like this other team, if asked the question, "OK, it's a playoff game or the super bowl, the Browns are playing your 'second favorite team', who are you rooting for?" If you hesitate even half a second, then I can't take your fandom of the Browns serious.. I just can't..


yebat' Putin
DCDAWGFAN #1945810 05/20/22 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
I will just disagree a little. There is nothing that rubs me the wrong way more than the phrase "second favorite team"...

If you say you are a fan of the Browns but you also really like this other team, if asked the question, "OK, it's a playoff game or the super bowl, the Browns are playing your 'second favorite team', who are you rooting for?" If you hesitate even half a second, then I can't take your fandom of the Browns serious.. I just can't..


I think for me it is definitely the 'X Fan' response by people. "Oh you are a Couch fan" is a way to try and tell someone that they like the player, not the team. It is a sad attempt to try and elevate yourself as a better fan by pushing down someone else as a lesser fan. You can like Watson as a Browns fan, you can dislike Watson as a Browns fan. Trying to question someone's 'Fan cred' because they like a player that is on the team just seems so fake. It always come across in a Kindergarten voice when I read it unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by bonefish

However, being critical of players or coaches IMO should be kept on what happens on the field of play.

I agree with you, but there are (should be, IMO) situations that rise above this general rule.

I can buy that, but I think the problem occurs [and this is just my opinion] that there are a handful of people who desperately want others to see things through their eyes instead of respecting how others feel about a particular situation. For example, there are multiple threads about Watson in the PFF. The articles are almost all regurgitated information that we have all read dozens of time. But folks like Pit keep posting them because he/they are so desperate to convince others to see things the way they do.

Personally, I have NO PROBLEM if someone shuns the Browns because of Watson. It's a freaking game. Not an important life decision like abortion, capital punishment, gun control, women's rights, equality for all, etc. It's a game for entertainment purposes. I also don't have a problem if some [like you] who feel uncomfortable about the situation. I understand it and respect that sentiment. However, I do have a problem when folks scream the same stuff over and over and over again trying to convince others to see things the same way they do. It's one thing if someone said that Watson sucks as a qb. That's an opinion. But trying to get others to make moral decisions is going too far.

Hell, I don't know about you.......but if I encounter a sales person who won't take no for an answer and is extremely aggressive in their quest for a sale, I shut them out completely. Likewise, the more the same handful of folks keep repeating the same things over and over and over.......they are actually strengthening my resolve to not agree w/them. It might be more prudent to respect the opinions of others in such an important matter. I'm never going to apologize for respecting the laws of our land where a man is innocent until proven guilty no matter how many times someone tries to tell me that the mob mentality and the court of public opinion should rule the day.

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