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The irony in the latest Browns QB drama lays out as follows:
Fans spend time hand-wringing over which QB-desperate team might covet Mayfield...then likely before Mayfield gets moved...Fans hand-wring over which team out there might have a better starting QB-option than Brisset. Only in Cleveland. How many NFL teams have you known to trade for a player, pay a big salary to or give up future assets for that at the time could not pass a team physical? None that I know of...at least not in a remotely similar situation. I didn't post a timeline...I thought it went/goes without saying that Baker won't get moved until he's able to pass a physical. Fans have been tripping down the "what to do with Baker" conundrum...and in that vein thinking draft pick(s), a DT, a WR or a cookie...when those same fans may soon change gear to who can we get as a starting QB.
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I simply posed the question because people in general don't take that into consideration when they try and make the case that nobody wants to give much for Baker as of yet. It seems logical to me and as precedent in making such trades dictate, that nobody is going to step up and make a reasonable offer until Baker can pass a physical.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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A question also, versatile, and I am also not being snarky. Your opinion appreciated. You played. If your team had two quarterbacks, one an 8 on a scale of 1-10, the other 5. The 5 is a really nice guy who you like a lot. The 8 is a bit abrasive and you don’t much care or him. He talks too much and offends people. Your goal is to make the championship. Which one do you want to be your qb??
Also to answer your question I think adult professionals would want the qb that gives them the best chance to win.
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jc... Deshaun Watson’s lawyer, Rusty Hardin, contends sexual activity during a massage is not a crime Posted by Mike Florio on June 3, 2022, 1:53 PM EDT linkAs Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson continues to flounder in the court of public opinion, two of his lawyers submitted to an extended radio interview on Friday morning regarding the case. Rusty Hardin and Leah Graham appeared on Sports Radio 610 in Houston. They answered many questions about the 23 civil cases pending against Watson. Each of the lawsuits allege sexual misconduct during massage therapy sessions. Hardin and Graham said plenty of things that are worthy of consideration and analysis. Near the end of the interview, Hardin had this to say about the possibility that Watson was getting massages from so many different therapists with an expectation, a hope, and/or a desire that it take a sexual turn. Indeed, Watson and his lawyers have admitted that consensus activities occurred with three of the plaintiffs who have sued him. “I don’t know how many men are out there now that have had a massage that perhaps occasionally there was a happy ending,” Hardin said. “Maybe there’s nobody in your listening audience that that ever happened to. I do want to point out, if it has happened, it’s not a crime. OK? Unless you are paying somebody extra or so to give you some type of sexual activity, it’s not a crime. . . . Doing something or saying something or being a way that makes you uncomfortable is not a crime.” But we’re not talking about criminal conduct at this stage of the process. The question is whether a civil violation occurred — something that isn’t a crime but that constitutes behavior that would permit the plaintiff to receive fair compensation. An equally important question for Watson is whether his behavior violates the Personal Conduct Policy. If he arranged massages hoping for a “happy ending” and in so doing connected himself in a way that made multiple massage therapists uncomfortable, that potentially amounts to “conduct that poses a genuine danger to the safety and well-being of another person” and/or “conduct that undermines or puts at risk the integrity of the NFL, NFL clubs, or NFL personnel.” Hardin, Graham, and the rest of Watson’s legal team are paid to advocate for him. That’s what they’re doing. They’re not paid to say, “Look, Deshaun likes getting massages from strangers and having them possibly turn sexual. Sometimes, the massage therapist initiates it. Sometimes, he has to make the first move. Sometimes, the massage therapist may not be interested in doing that. Sometimes, the massage therapist may end up feeling uncomfortable or offended.” Common sense suggests, based on the 23 claims pending against Watson, that he was doing precisely that. Does anyone believe these massages were therapeutic? He’s a professional athlete. He would want to find one person who consistently gives him the kind of massage that allows him to get the most out of his abilities, not a revolving door of people with varying levels of skill and experience who may or may not enhance his on-field performance — and who potentially could with one wrong move impair it. He has every right to defend himself against these 23 cases, and to insist that he did nothing wrong before, during, and after the trials. As Hardin says more and more about the situation, however, he’s coming dangerously close to admitting that Watson indeed had a habit of seeking and/or getting “happy endings.” Should anyone be surprised that the therapists who objected to these advances, once they realized that they had rights that could be pursued in court, decided to do so? Hardin and Graham keep trying to blame attorney Tony Buzbee for basically soliciting plaintiffs with claims against Watson. So what if he did? Turn on the TV and try to watch 20 minutes without seeing a commercial in which a lawyer or a law firm tries to solicit specific types of people with specific types of claims against specific defendants, from asbestos to talcum powder to weed eater to truck accidents to workplace injuries to any type of civil claim a person can make, and from which their lawyers will make money. Ultimately, the 23 pending cases will go to court and be resolved by a jury unless they are settled. Ultimately, the NFL will make a decision on whether Watson violated the Personal Conduct Policy. If Watson’s defense in the Court of Roger Goodell is, “Did I get a few happy endings? Sure. Was I trying to get even more than that? You bet. But, hey, that’s not a crime,” Watson has little chance at avoiding a lengthy suspension.
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Why would the Browns even consider him? He didn't want to be here the first time, why give him a second time? Oh, DW? The qb that will miss 4-6 games, maybe even a whole year?
Pass on him.
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This is exactly the same thought process many of us on this forum have about what Watson has done. I find it very interesting that with each passing day we find out more and more from Watson's lawyers themselves about what Watson was really doing. The Baker haters on here will still attempt to say that the attitude toward Watson is based on the support of Mayfield which couldn't be further from the truth. as the article states:
"Common sense suggests, based on the 23 claims pending against Watson, that he was doing precisely that. Does anyone believe these massages were therapeutic? He’s a professional athlete. He would want to find one person who consistently gives him the kind of massage that allows him to get the most out of his abilities, not a revolving door of people with varying levels of skill and experience who may or may not enhance his on-field performance — and who potentially could with one wrong move impair it."
"He has every right to defend himself against these 23 cases, and to insist that he did nothing wrong before, during, and after the trials. As Hardin says more and more about the situation, however, he’s coming dangerously close to admitting that Watson indeed had a habit of seeking and/or getting “happy endings.” Should anyone be surprised that the therapists who objected to these advances, once they realized that they had rights that could be pursued in court, decided to do so?"
I guess the only answer to this now is that Mike Florio must be a Mayfield supporter to post such a damaging article about Watson without proof. Give me a break!
Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN the ROAD"
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Why would the Browns even consider him? He didn't want to be here the first time, why give him a second time? Oh, DW? The qb that will miss 4-6 games, maybe even a whole year?
Pass on him. There is way more to the OBJ story than some on here want you to believe. I am not going to get into it because I am sick of the constant personality conflicts, but OBJ is a great player when healthy and I guarantee you that Watson would throw him the ball. Now, I don't know if OBJ would want to leave LA for Cleveland, but he got along great w/his teammates in Cleveland and Watson is a great qb. It's probably not going to happen, but I wish it would. So does Myles.
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I will not comment on what did or did not take place.
However, if I were DW I would try to settle every case. No matter the outcome of each case. It is about compensation in money.
If they could try all the cases at one time that would be different. Trying 23 cases will take a lot of time maybe years.
Each case will require his testimony. Each case will be public. One case could use what took place in another case.
IMO he would be better off settling as quickly as possible.
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That is exactly, 100%, opinion. And, your opinion and my opinion do not agree.
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Most of it is opinion, but Myles would not be trying to recruit him if he didn't want him back. It wasn't an April Fools joke.
Man, I would love to have OBJ back. Watson, Cooper, and OBJ along w/a happy Njoku and our RBs. Oh My Goodness!!! On the other hand, OBJ probably won't be ready to return until November and maybe even December, so there is that.
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As Hardin says more and more about the situation, however, he’s coming dangerously close to admitting that Watson indeed had a habit of seeking and/or getting “happy endings.” Should anyone be surprised that the therapists who objected to these advances, once they realized that they had rights that could be pursued in court, decided to do so?
Beginning to look like Watson's claim that "I have never treated any woman with anything other than the utmost respect."... is a real stretch and Watson's lawyer seem to saying SO WHAT if he did line up therapists with the goal being "happy endings".
These lawyers are not doing the Browns any favors..!
Last edited by mac; 06/03/22 05:07 PM.
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I guess I'm out of the loop. Why would obj not be available until November, or December? Is he hurt? If so, it makes even LESS sense to consider him. If he's not hurt, what's the deal?
What's the point of .........eh, never mind.
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A question also, versatile, and I am also not being snarky. Your opinion appreciated. You played. If your team had two quarterbacks, one an 8 on a scale of 1-10, the other 5. The 5 is a really nice guy who you like a lot. The 8 is a bit abrasive and you don’t much care or him. He talks too much and offends people. Your goal is to make the championship. Which one do you want to be your qb??
Also to answer your question I think adult professionals would want the qb that gives them the best chance to win. I am assuming you are speaking of Baker vs Brissett? Is that correct? I am not that educated on just how good or bad JB is. I watched him a few times, but never really evaluated him. I think it's safe to say that Baker is better than he is. I do not have any idea how the Browns talent evaluators view JB and I think they soured on Baker quite some time ago. Baker has also demanded a trade. I also know that locker rooms are different than the average work place. LOL.......trust me that the locker rooms I have been in are vastly different than the teacher's lounge or the shop where I currently deal w/our employees on occasion. If Watson is suspended and the Browns and Baker want to reunite, I'm not going to balk. However, I am not one of those who think it's a given that Watson will be given a long suspension. We have people on here who want that, but I'm not one of them and I don't see the evidence that warrants a long suspension. I also think the Baker/Browns thing sailed awhile ago. I could be wrong about all of that, but it is the sense I get of the situation. And I am not trying to convince anyone to agree w/my opinions and I will put any further commentary I have on the legal proceedings of Watson's case in the thread Dave started in the Tailgate forum about Watson and the Legal Proceedings, or something similar to that. I would rather talk football in this forum.
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He blew his knee out during the Super Bowl. Most thought he was on track to win the MVP in that game. Check out the Cooper Kupp video I posted earlier.
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He tore the same ACL again in the Super Bowl. His previous tear (2020) left him with complications and a longer than expected recovery. This is something I didn't know until recently...
HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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So, injured again. Got it.
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I guess I'm out of the loop. Why would obj not be available until November, or December? Is he hurt? If so, it makes even LESS sense to consider him. If he's not hurt, what's the deal?
What's the point of .........eh, never mind. JMO but you are right, OBJ never wanted to be here in the first place (Glaser confirmed) dude was a star, he wants the bright lights and big city. LA - NYC.... Dude tried to get out of Cleveland every off season he was here (confirmed multiple sources). Dude was injured in the last game for the Rams... Re-injuring the the same issue he's had before. When he was in LA people talked about how good he suddenly was .... he was playing as a #2 to Kupp. His stats in every category other than TD's was within spitting distance of what he did here with an injured Baaker. As I said - jmo but I wouldn't touch OBJ with a 20 ft barge pole.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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It's amazing that OBJ has such a bad rap even though that he has been so well-liked and respected by his teammates in all three of his teams. There are many reports out there about OBJ's time in Cleveland. Conflicting information. Personally, I trust the guys who played w/the man over any of us.
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Hardin is really pooping the bed today.... the story was DW wanted to come to Cleveland because of KS....
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Hardin is really pooping the bed today.... the story was DW wanted to come to Cleveland because of KS.... The Miami situation occurred much earlier. I think prior to or during the 2021 season.
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And he still should have done it. 2 cases lingering, may they fester but they probably lose momentum and almost certainly eventually settle as well as the press attention turns. If he’d only had 2 cases pending when he signed the Browns deal everything would have been worlds different. Maybe another couple girls come out of the woodwork but eventually they take settlements in the face of a long process the public isn’t following closely and this whole thing goes to bed. But nope. This is going to turn into a law school example of why you should encourage high profile client to settle as quickly as possible. It either gets worse or it gets much much worse and your guilt or innocence is completely irrelevant. I know I’m beating a dead horse but how the Browns gave him that contract without some stipulation that he must settle as many claims as possible as quickly as possible I will never understand. Just mystifyingly stupid.
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jc... Deshaun Watson’s lawyer, Rusty Hardin: “Happy ending” remark was used “hypothetically” Posted by Mike Florio on June 3, 2022, 6:35 PM EDT linkFriday did not have a satisfactory conclusion for lawyer Rusty Hardin. After his comment during a radio interview regarding “happy endings” during massage sessions not being illegal went viral in a bad way, the attorney representing Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson tried to fix things with a statement issued late in the afternoon. “Deshaun Watson did nothing wrong,” Hardin said. “And as two grand juries have made clear, Deshaun did nothing illegal. Deshaun has always acknowledged consensual sexual activity with three of the plaintiff massage therapists after massages. And Deshaun has repeatedly sworn under oath that he did not force any of his accusers to have sexual contact. “On a Houston radio show interview today, I mentioned that a massage that has a ‘happy ending’ is not illegal, meaning it is not illegal for someone to have consensual sex with a therapist after a massage unless the sex is for pay. Deshaun did not pay anyone for sex. I was using the term hypothetically and not describing Deshaun’s case. “I have reiterated to others it’s not OK to do anything that a woman does not agree to do. These women have alleged assault in their pleadings. I was speaking in a hypothetical situation. If there is a consensual sexual encounter after a massage, that is not a crime nor the basis for a civil lawsuit. I was not talking about what Deshaun did or did not do or expected or did not expect.” The comment from Hardin nevertheless bolsters the argument that Watson wanted or expected “happy endings,” and that Watson was actively seeking them out. In trying to make a massage turn sexual, Watson potentially offended and/or touched in an unwelcome or unwanted way one or more of the massage therapists with one or more areas of his body. That’s what the 23 plaintiffs are alleging, that Watson went too far in trying to make the massages a sexual encounter. The mindset bluntly expressed by Hardin’s original comment and more subtly residing in his effort to clean up the mess his remarks made could ultimately bolster the 23 cases pending against Watson. If Watson and Hardin see nothing wrong with a massage becoming sexual and they see nothing wrong with an effort to make a massage become sexual, they fail to comprehend the foundation of the complaints against Watson — that he allegedly crossed the line in trying to get the massages to cross the line.
Last edited by mac; 06/03/22 08:03 PM.
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I was proven wrong and will remove my claim.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 06/03/22 08:34 PM.
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I have serious concerns that Watson's lawyer is not doing Watson or the Browns any favors by "running his mouth".
When I read the article about Watson's lawyer Hardin seemingly bragging that Watson was looking for "happy endings" as the end result of Watson's therapy sessions and there was nothing wrong with that...I figured everyone working to minimize the potential NFL suspension of Watson would not take kindly to Hardin's "happy endings" comment.
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Hardin is really pooping the bed today.... the story was DW wanted to come to Cleveland because of KS.... The Miami situation occurred much earlier. I think prior to or during the 2021 season. Thanks. That makes sense and why it would be ok for him to mention it. Were Miami in on DW after the GJ didn't indict?
Last edited by mgh888; 06/03/22 08:19 PM.
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Hardin is really pooping the bed today.... the story was DW wanted to come to Cleveland because of KS.... The Miami situation occurred much earlier. I think prior to or during the 2021 season. Thanks. That makes sense and why it would be ok for him to mention it. Were Miami in on DW after the GJ didn't indict? No. I think that Brian Flores was pushing for it. I believe one of the points of contention with Flores and the front office was that Flores was not a huge fan of Tua.
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My only concern w/Watson's lawyer is that I think he should be amping up a planned attack on the NFL if the latter unjustly suspends him. As of right now, there is no Godly reason to suspend Watson other to avoid a Public Relations backlash. I think Watson's attorney should be gathering as much evidence as possible against the NFL in cases like Flores, Zeke, Grudin, and especially Daniel Snyder.
Grudin was a sacrificial lamb to draw attention away from all of Snyder's terrible actions. Snyder has numerous claims against him of sexual harassment. Claims about groping thighs, illegal photo shoot, trying to push a woman into his limo, etc. The organization was charged w/bullying, harassment, intimidation, etc. The NFL took control of the investigation and did not punish Snyder at all. Instead, they threw the media the Grudin bone. Now,the House Committee on Oversight and Reform are investigating Snyder and Goodell for what transpired and want them to testify. Congress is also investigating claims that Snyder and his team was withholding money from ticket sales that was to be shared w/others. This last tidbit might be his undoing, but make no mistake, the NFL turned a blind eye to all the sexual misconduct allegations from Snyder and his staff.
So, attack them w/vigor. Go full force in an all-out attack on the NFL and their biased decisions if the NFL dares to attempt to suspend Watson of unfounded charges.
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I said the above as a Brown's fan rather than a Baker fan. I want what is best for the Browns and I have no desire to see the team punished unfairly because some folks are upset about how they treated Baker.
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The reason to suspend is that there are 25 allegations of, at least, sexual impropriety. The NFL did their own investigation. If they find something he should be suspended. Also, public relations is a valid reason for the NFL to suspend Watson.
The NFL changed the way these type of things are handled so it should be pretty unbiased.
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Understood, but why wasn't Snyder disciplined for even more claims of impropriety?
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Understood, but why wasn't Snyder disciplined for even more claims of impropriety? Because there is an ongoing investigation. Snyder is going to get nailed to the wall at some point.
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I will let this go, but the NFL basically gave him a slap on the wrist. I can provide the article if needed that says as such. Now, things will change as you say because Congress is involved and he will most likely be punished. However, Watson's attorney can pin-point inconsistencies in how the NFL deals w/various people w/in the league. Black man who comes from humble beginnings versus a rich, white man born into wealth.
Now, I say this because at the current time..............Watson does not deserve to be suspended given the evidence. That could change, but as of right now, he doesn't deserve a suspension and the only reason to suspend him is for PR related reasons. If the NFL decides to suspend him unjustly, I think Watson's lawyer should attack them w/all his might. Of course, I think he should let the NFL know that ahead of time and that was my original point of contention.
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Here is one article in case anyone believes I am making this up. House Oversight Committee calls on Roger Goodell and Dan Snyder to answer questions they have dodged for 7 monthsMore questions for Goodell and Snyder By Scott Jennings@ScottJenningsHH Jun 1, 2022, 11:00am EDT 93 Comments The House Committee on Oversight and Reform continues their investigation into Dan Snyder and the Washington Commanders. This started with accusations of a toxic workplace that included sexual harassment, taking and distributing nude pictures of cheerleaders, and other offenses. The NFL’s own investigation was basically squashed when Commissioner Roger Goodell requested an oral report only from Beth Wilkinson, and then gave Snyder and the team slaps on the wrist. Snyder left day-to-day operations to his wife, but had free reign in every aspect of the franchise. The team was fined $10 million and started several changes to diversify and clean up the workplace. This punishment was not the transparent outcome that was promised by Snyder and the team, and led to Congress getting involved. In a roundtable in front of the Committee new allegations were disclosed that directly implicated Dan Snyder for sexual harassment. Financial improprieties were also brought to the Committee’s attention, all of which were quickly denied by team attorneys. The Committee also sent a letter to the Federal Trade Commission concerning the financial allegations, and investigations are ongoing in several states. The accusation that got the most attention, and gave fans the most hope of Snyder being ousted, was that he was withholding money from ticket sales that gets shared with other owners. Today’s letter from the Committee requests that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and Washington Commanders owner Dan Snyder appear at a June 22nd. “The hearing is the next step in the Committee’s months-long investigation into the Commanders’ hostile workplace culture and will also examine the NFL’s handling of allegations of workplace misconduct, the NFL’s role in setting and enforcing standards across the League, and legislative reforms needed to address these issues across the NFL and other workplaces.” Hearing Will Also Examine the NFL’s Response and the Need for Legislative Reform Washington, D.C. (June 1, 2022)— Today, Rep. Carolyn B. Maloney, Chairwoman of the Committee on Oversight and Reform, and Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Economic and Consumer Policy, sent letters to Roger Goodell, Commissioner of the National Football League (NFL), and Daniel Snyder, owner of the Washington Commanders, requesting they appear before the Committee at a hearing on June 22, 2022. The hearing is the next step in the Committee’s months-long investigation into the Commanders’ hostile workplace culture and will also examine the NFL’s handling of allegations of workplace misconduct, the NFL’s role in setting and enforcing standards across the League, and legislative reforms needed to address these issues across the NFL and other workplaces. “Since we launched our investigation in October, the Committee’s goal has been to uncover the truth about the culture of harassment and abuse at the Washington Commanders, to hold accountable those responsible, and to better protect workers across the country,” said Chairwoman Maloney. “The Committee has worked tirelessly to obtain critical information, including the findings of the internal investigation conducted by attorney Beth Wilkinson, only to be met with obstruction from the Commanders and the NFL at every turn. We must have transparency and accountability, which is why we are calling on Mr. Goodell and Mr. Snyder to answer the questions they have dodged for the last seven months. The hearing will explore how Congress can act to prevent employers from silencing victims of workplace misconduct and ensure that what happened at the Commanders organization does not happen again.” “For seven months, the Committee has been stonewalled by NDAs and other tools to evade accountability,” said Chairman Krishnamoorthi. “Mr. Snyder and Mr. Goodell need to appear before the Committee to address these issues and answer our questions about the pervasive workplace misconduct at the Washington Commanders, and how the NFL addressed these issues.” On October 21, 2021, Chairwoman Maloney and Chairman Krishnamoorthi sent a letter to NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell requesting all documents related to the investigation conducted by attorney Beth Wilkinson, including her investigative findings. On November 5, 2021, the Chairs released a statement calling on the NFL and the Commanders to release all individuals from non-disclosure agreements preventing them from speaking out about Daniel Snyder and the Commanders’ toxic work environment. The Chairs issued another statement in December 2021 following a report that detailed Mr. Snyder’s efforts to obstruct the internal investigation. On February 3, 2022, the Committee held a roundtable with several former Washington Commanders’ employees who detailed widespread sexual harassment, abuse, and other workplace misconduct by top executives, including team owner Daniel Snyder, and explained that the League failed to address these issues. At the roundtable, Tiffani Johnston detailed sexual advances made by Mr. Snyder’s at a team dinner. Following the Committee’s roundtable, the NFL opened a new investigation into Mr. Snyder’s conduct, as well as financial improprieties brought to light by the Committee’s investigation. On February 4, 2022, the Committee released documents, including a Common Interest Agreement signed by the NFL and the Commanders, and an engagement letter between the Commanders and Ms. Wilkinson’s law firm, which raised questions about the NFL’s purported commitment to independence and transparency in addressing workplace misconduct at the Commanders. On April 12, 2022, the Committee sent the Federal Trade Commission troubling evidence of potential financial misconduct by the Washington Commanders, which the Committee obtained in the course of its investigation into the team’s toxic workplace culture and the NFL’s response. Following the Committee’s letter, attorneys general in Virginia and the District of Columbia announced investigations into the team’s conduct. https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/6/1/...-questions-they-have-dodged-for-7-months
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Why is Hardin even doing radio hits?
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,633
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,633 |
I guess the question for the Watson backers/ apologists I would ask is; would you disagree with the idea of a lengthy suspension if he was a Steeler or a Raven? Be honest.
I know I’d feel the same way either way. I’m frankly sad he’s a Brown. I’m actually looking at Brissett and hoping he can be good enough with all the other piece that maybe we can salvage something. And I admit it, as dominant and exciting a player as Watson is, I’m finding myself hoping this Watson drama just goes away. Lord knows he, his Lawyers and the team are doing NOTHING proactive to make it go away themselves.
So yea, I’ll actually be a bit relived if he’s booted for a year or more. Both because I believe any player with the sheer volume of damning evidence needs to go, at least until it’s settled, but also selfishly, it’s so freakin’ distracting and horrible for the psyche of this team and city. We really really didn’t need this. To think, As fragile and sensitive as Bakers ego is, we chose this horror show over that.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583 |
I won't be surprised if our starting QB is a guy not on our roster today...that's not a prediction. I won't be surprised if Watson doesn't play a down.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,546
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,546 |
Don't want OBJ cancer back. What a crap show.
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