DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... New stadium

Lots of talk about a possible new stadium... I'm not sure if we need a new one or fix the current one... either way, we need a dome...

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022...lion-stadium-likely-publicly-funded.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The Cleveland Browns are apparently eyeing a new $1 billion stadium – likely to come at significant taxpayer expense – as part of a costly lakefront redevelopment plan, at a time when the team is already mired in multimillion-dollar controversies.

NEOtrans real estate blogger Ken Prendergast reported the news in a post Friday, writing that unnamed sources close to team owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam told him they want a covered stadium that could cost over $1 billion and are even open to moving the city-owned arena to a new location near downtown to get it. And so far, the Browns have not denied it.

In a recent interview, Peter John-Baptiste, senior vice president of communications for the Browns and Haslam Sports Group, told Prendergast that he was “a little too far out in front of the story” and would not comment on specifics.

Reached by phone Sunday, John-Baptiste declined to respond to the blog post but confirmed that the team is conducting “feasibility studies on what a new stadium could look like.” The results are expected sometime in 2023 and focus “primarily on renovating the current stadium,” he said, but he could not definitively refute whether plans might eventually include rebuilding or moving the arena.

Instead, he pointed to ongoing efforts to redevelop up to 70 acres of city-owned lakefront property, including the land on which the current stadium sits, into a sort of ballpark village surrounding – and further supporting -- the arena, as evidence of the team’s intent to stay put. The plan envisions adding housing, retail, parking, hospitality and recreation spaces along the harbor, but is dependent on the city building a land bridge linking the area to other downtown amenities.

“Our focus is on the lakefront,” John-Baptiste said. “That’s the neighborhood we’re in, and that’s where we want to be.”

He could not say how much an upgraded facility might cost, but it’s likely to require significant public funding, considering most professional teams negotiate significant subsidies from their home city and county. The current stadium, which was built in 1999, cost $283 million, largely funded by city bonds backed by the county’s “sin tax” on alcohol and cigarette purchases.

A portion of that tax, which expires in 2035, is currently used to pay for capital or emergency repairs to the stadium, per the terms of the team’s lease agreement. Earlier this month, Cleveland City Council approved using the fund for $10 million in repairs, including a replacement of the pedestrian ramps that carry fans to and from the stadium’s upper levels. The remaining portion came from the city’s general fund.

The news comes at a time when the team is already under fire for guaranteeing quarterback Deshaun Watson’s $230 million contract – the most in NFL history – despite the now 24 massage therapists who have filed civil lawsuits against him, alleging sexual misconduct. That means he could continue to be paid even if he does receive disciplinary action, ranging from suspension for a specific number of games or indefinitely, to banishment from the league.

The NFL Players Association is preparing to fight any suspension without pay, cleveland.com’s Mary Kay Cabot recently reported.

The news also comes as the Browns continue to defend their million-dollar relationship with FirstEnergy, amid the ongoing bribery scandal around House Bill 6 and accusations that the company bankrolled a dark money group that tried to undermine its city-owned competitor. Cleveland City Council recently called on the company to relinquish its naming rights of the football stadium, but the Browns said they remain “committed to our relationship and look forward to our continued partnership.”

FirstEnergy reportedly paid the team $107 million in 2013 for naming rights through 2030.

The Browns have also been one of the main catalysts for redeveloping Cleveland’s lakefront. The Haslams proposed a plan last year to extend the downtown Mall into a sort of land bridge over the Ohio 2 Shoreway, finally linking downtown to lakefront attractions, like the city-owned football stadium, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the Great Lakes Science Center. Not only is it believed the bridge would increase public access to the lakefront, but it would extend the city grid to the water’s edge and make new land available and attractive for other businesses.

The plan already has significant backing. Mayor Justin Bibb, the city of Cleveland, and the Greater Cleveland Partnership have organized a civic task force with five working groups and more than 150 participants to try to make the transformation happen.

The cost to reconfigure traffic and build the land bridge has been estimated at $229 million, the majority of which is expected to be funded by state and federal sources. But the city is likely to have to kick in at least some portion.

That cost would compete against any funding the city might provide toward renovations or a new Browns stadium, but it seems unlikely that the poorest big city in the nation will have much more to give.

The city’s 2022 budget includes $62 million more in spending than revenues will cover, and the city is already considering how it may participate in $1 billion plans to renovate or replace the Justice Center, which houses city and county courthouses, not to mention the financial impact of where the county cAccording to NEOtrans’s reporting, sources contend the revenues generated by the lakefront development plan could offset a significant portion of the building costs for a new stadium, even if it were moved to a new location. The post referenced two potential sites under consideration: either where the Main Post Office currently stands at 2400 Orange Ave., southeast of downtown, or near the Federal Bureau of Investigation building at 1501 Lakeside Ave. E.

They also say a stadium with either a permanent dome or retractable roof would also be able to generate revenue year-round, providing space for concerts, shows or other major events. The current open-air stadium is used only about a dozen times a year.

It appears the Haslams have just been waiting on final waterfront redevelopment plans to pull the trigger on plans for an upgraded stadium, according to reporting on the Browns’ official website.

“The city and The (Greater) Cleveland partnership has taken over the waterfront development piece, and we have committees working on that,” Dee Haslam said in March. “Our part now is how we bring the stadium up to a better standard, so I think we’ve started interviewing and thinking about architects and consultants.”

hooses to build a new jail.

In an interview on cleveland.com’s “Today in Ohio” podcast leading up to the election, reporter Seth Richardson asked now-Mayor Justin Bibb what he would do if the Browns asked the city to subsidize a new stadium or renovations, like The Guardians had recently secured.

At the time, Bibb said he considers the city’s major sports teams “a great asset and a great boon to our regional economy,” but he would not support subsidizing sports stadiums unless the investments can be recouped and leveraged for more economic development.

“If we can find a way to raise nearly half a billion dollars to support Progressive Field and their renovations, then surely we can also find a way to have the same level of investment to support our neighborhoods,” Bibb said at the time.

Though the city and county have partnered to fund other stadiums – each picking up a third of the tab for $202.5 million in renovations to Progressive Field as part of a lease agreement with The Guardians – it’s unlikely that the city would be able to turn to the county for support either. Cuyahoga County Council is already weighing plans to spend $550 million on a new jail, $1 billion on a court facility, and $30 million or more on planned renovations to the Global Center for Health Innovation.

Well a new stadium being built would help distract the fans from their DW fury.

We see that in politics.....

As for the stadium. Most people agree we need a dome. The biggest argument by people is the game should be played in the weather....that isn't true. The public should provide major funding for the facility. It will bring major dollars in to the city with year round use.

Even bigger is the money that will be generated by development at the current stadium site. That development won't be publicly funded. That will be private investment minus the possibility of a tax break in some form to help bring in the investment money. I don't know all the plans, but they include housing, hotels, entertainment, and retail. No doubt some of that may "shift" from one section of the city to there, but much will be new income generators to the city.

That is in addition to what a 12 month a year stadium facility would generate. I don't have the desire to look in to how many events are held at the stadium outside of Browns games but as a season ticket holder I get the opportunity to buy tickets to at least some of the events held there outside of football season. Just making at minimum a educated guess since I read the emails I receive, it seems to be around 6 events....concerts, soccer, what not. That number would be basically limitless if the city had a domed stadium.

Our stadium was a rush job stadium. I like it but it isn't very useful. If the city had a state of the art stadium, there is no reason it couldn't last 50 or more years. I don't have the creative vision to see what else might come down the road in the way of stadiums, but it seems to me the ones being built today will stand the test of time, especially if it is designed to have some flexibility to allow for some modifications over time.

I have no real stake in things. By the time things are approved, and built, I might not even be here, or at minimum will be several years older and my going to games days will start to dwindle. Even if it is was approved today, design work, site work, demolition and construction would take 3-5 years. Add in another 2 years while people bicker over this and that you are talking 6-7 years down the road.

Seeing that we have already lost a team over stadium facilities, maybe the bickering phase will be reduced and the construction phase will start earlier....especially since the current site of the stadium sits on such a valuable piece of property that the city and county would like to see developed in a more profitable manner.

Cuyahoga County never got rid of the Sin Tax, so the money is already there... why not?

Besides that, I no longer live in that county, so I don't care if the city wastes its money like this.

I guarantee you will be, and Me too, will be paying money, real dollars if these dolts are allowed to have taxpayers foot the bill for a stadium.
Huge waste of what to spend money on.
They may as well fix Haiti first.

There is no "need" for a dome.
There is no need to even have a stadium.
There is no need to even play football in Cleveland.
There is no "need" to even have the NFL play any games at all.

Millions of people will suffer, millions of people will suffer if they are allowed to build a new stadium which isn't even close to 40 years old anyway.
For a billion dollars, they could build low income housing for a lot of people.

I blame the Brittish.

There is no real need for a internet connect. Maybe you should disconnect?

Just kidding.

j/c...

Well that makes sense, thanks Milk.


These pics show the prospective changes, as proposed by Haslam's group last year. I couldn't understand how we suddenly made some leap to a new stadium in a different location. Not only would it be stunning, it would (finally) provide easy stadium access for everyone. Besides, you've already dissed Baker and kicked him out, and now you want to burn his house down? Talk about a nasty divorce!

Timing on this is pretty bad, but I can see the benefits of a dome in Cleveland. I do wonder about the lack of people in the city and how it can be funded, but don't know enough to say it couldnt happen.

If the taxpayers are footing the bill (more than likely), then the taxpayers should be able to see full potential return on investment. IMO, this means you gotta have some sort of roof on it in order to have events in the winter... and there's no way around it.

Agreed.

As an aside: Playing catchup on all the news regarding the potential sites and the Browns most recent reply to the Prendergast report counters it by stating their studies focus on the Lakefront. Not sure if that is true or not, but the more I've been thiking about it, I think I'd like the Stadium to move from there. It is such an under-utilized asset space downtown that I'd rather have more commercial and residential endeavors there than the stadium. With the various surface lots around the area, it just seems like there could be so much more down to that part of the city.

I think the easiest option would be the post office site on Orange but not saying I think it is the best. There is so much space over there and public transportation (The Red Line) goes through there, I believe. That said, the muni lot is very far north of the site as well as the Warehouse District. Essentially, it is not near any social/bar scene part of down town and I'm guessing lots would need to be added in addition to a stadium.

In a way, that is part of the purpose. Build it and they will come.

That said, I think up nearer the existing stadium would be best, but I don't live there, so I don't have a dog in the fight. Well, except I do have season tickets and spend maybe 16 or more nights a year in hotels and eat at restaurants when there.

That reminds me too much of the Ohio State univ. Horseshoe stadium if looked at from the .. west?, west to east overhead, as it currently is.
Road- road, building-building, cross road- cross road, vacant field- vacant field, bridge-bridge, it's like a carbon copy imo, I'm just saying, maybe somebody had the outline on their brain, or there are only so many ways to layout a stadium. Aside from the, waterfront of course.

You do realize that's our current stadium?

Does the stuff to the east of the stadium, (on that drawing) currently exist, it's been at least a year+ since I last got up there.

You will pay for the stadium when you pay for everything from gasoline, a loaf of bread, insurance, or a beer or soft drink. Everyone will pay in the increased prices spread through the economy by the advertisers.
And if you don't believe anyone needs an internet connection, that's how it should be, but it is 2022, so.

Right.

Basically, everything I've circled in blue would be new...

Some other renderings...

Looks nice. I like the park space, but there would probably need to be a few other condos or hotels. That is where the money will be generated. Not so much with people out riding their bike.

The conversation seems to center around getting rid of the Shoreway in favor of slower traffic and a marriage (finally) of the lakefront to downtown. Almost everybody has been on board except ODOT initially... which likes the fast moving traffic of the Shoreway and is concerned about bottlenecks if it is gone.

With Haslam sharing the cost and plenty of investment from outside vendors and hotels, they all seem to think this is a no-brainer. ODOT and the city shared the 5M cost of planning and engineering and the state seems to be onboard with moving forward (although there are occasional rumors to the contrary).

A slower pace and more of a reason to hang out, head downtown, etc... would be a boon to all businesses, not just on gameday.

Safe pedestrian and cycling traffic has been a long time coming, hopefully this comes to pass.

The project is estimated to be 230M, and Deshaun Watson will pay for it and between state, city, investor, funds from ODOT, funds from Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA, which distributes federal transportation funds), and tax revenue... the costs are spread thin enough that no one is really concerned with ROI as the benefits and long-term "return" speak for themselves.

How come none of those renderings have a dome

Agreed. So many cities are renovating parts of their cities and it's really helped their communities as a whole. I do wonder if there are plans to add a progressive hospital--or a branch of a current one-- to the area, as well? It sounds lame, but hospitals can add a lot to their locations.

Maybe a clinic of some sort, but you have 2-3 mega, world class hospitals maybe 5 miles down Euclid Blvd. I don't think anybody would build anything on a big scale. Probably more of a downtown ambulance and paramedic station. Maybe a walk in clinic type deal.

Plus, there is also a Cleveland Clinic hospital on W. 25th street (near the Superior Bridge) very close to the Lake.

Yeah, you guys are right.

I love love LOVE that giant park/walkway/bridge thing with the garden or hole (?) in the middle taking people from the edge of downtown to the stadium.

Giant, suicide by train, hole?

It does look cool, but I wonder about the issues that it may cause.

I was referring more to the bridge aspect. From the overhead shots I couldn't understand what was until FATE posted the "drone-view" renderings.

To your point, I'm not sure what the reason would be to put a hole in a bridge for the purpose of seeing old commuter trains.

All sorts of trains run through there.

I agree. The hole is kind of goofy if you ask me. If you want to look at the trains, walk by the edge of the bridge. I guess it would cut down on decking which would reduce costs be it minimal. Compared to the cost of the project, a little added decking isn't going to make a measurable difference. The hole might actually make it more expensive.

The hole would definitely cost more.

I think this is nothing more than a nod to the idea that "we'll do something fancy right here".

My view is I like my football outside on natural grass Sundays at 1PM.

I don't get to many games so no one making any decision will care. If I have to sit in a dome (I saw the Colts in Indy several years ago that way) then I will sit in a dome thinking about how great an open air stadium would be. Unless it is a cold rainy day, I hate cold rain.

No, they aren't. Don't get distracted by shiny things and big numbers...

The 2 newest stadiums in the NFL are Allegiant in Vegas, which was $2 billion in 2014 when it started construction EIGHT YEARS AGO.

And SoFi in LA (which is really state of the art), which was $5 billion in 2016 when it started SIX YEARS AGO....

And construction costs have been escalating 5-8% per year since these 2 were built.

You can put your pinky to the corner of your mouth and say "$1 billllllllllion dollars" all you want but that ain't going to get you close to building a new NFL stadium. Let alone building something that is domed, year round use, state of the art, not bare bones, etc... If you don't come to the table with $3-4 billion to start and plan on going up from there, you ain't building sh*t.

Correct, but I've read they aren't looking for a new stadium, despite reports to the contrary. Just looking to update existing stadium (again), and renovate the areas surrounding the stadium.

THROW: this is an artist's rendering of the proposed development that will grow next to the existing stadium site.


At least that's how I interpreted all this.

I'm not sure $1B is enough to even construct the architectural renderings from the original proposed concept that includes the land bridge (yikes on the bottleneck as you near the entrance gates). There are seven years remaining on the stadium lease. When that times comes, either build state of the art or do not bother. A stadium can be a destination. I'd expect in the $4-$5 billion range by that time. Cleveland skilled labor is obviously cheaper than California skilled labor when prevailing wages apply.

I think much of the drawing includes private venture development that wouldn't be included in the $1 billion. The billion mentioned would be the bridge and site work in the area as well as anything done to the existing stadium. Much like a country might develop a land site for an industrial park. Clear land, do some basic grading, put in roads and utilities so a site is pretty much build ready for some manufacturing plant.

What's that little Oval thing, hole in the ground to the south east of the stadium?

The best thing to call it would be a "concept". Merely an artist's vision of how cool a pedestrian bridge could look. As I said earlier, just a nod to the idea of "we could do something cool here". And, as someone else said, "why would pedestrian's want to look down at dirty train tracks?"