DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Reaching out to and/or trading Baker

I feel dirty re-starting this thread...but here it is.

At the end of the last Baker thread, oob said this:

"If they have proven anything to us, is that they want the best possible person under center for the Browns and will do just about anything to accomplish that."

I believe that ^ as well...and have confidence that the FO has a plan to do just that...and at any position. Here's what gives me great pause to continue believing just that:

If DW is out for the year, the "best possible person under center" is NOT Brissett if Baker is still on the team. I don't care what kind of a turd gets eaten here nor do I care who eats it, but not trying to keep Baker with DW out and going then with Brissett flies in the face of why they went after DW in the first place.

Here's the new twist in my thought process here:

If they were ok with rolling with Brissett, why didn't they unload Baker months ago? Beat the Redskins to the punch and trade Baker there...he's better than Wentz. Or trade him to another team BEFORE they reached the reality of desperation?

The DW foul up is only part of their QB boneheadedness here...not unloading Baker earlier (IF Brissett was viewed as good enough) is the double-down.

Opinions on just how good Baker is varies dramatically on here. That's not going to change no matter how much info comes out. I don't want to get into a war about it yet again, so I will just that I don't think the Brown's FO are even close to being boneheads.

Here are the exceptions to what I said (as I see it).

-They can unload some/all of Baker's cap hit, allowing them to sign another FA that plugs a hole and/or get an asset back in return... especially if this is a player such as a DT or WR.
-They believe (as I do) that the supporting cast, being healthier than they were last year, makes Brissett starting more doable. IMO, I don't think they see it this way, but that's also me trying to get into their heads. I think this group has strong opinions regarding putting the best possible person under center.


Not trying to do a 180. It's a complicated question with lots still up in the air (namely Watson's status for the season and Baker's shoulder). I just think that if Watson's suspension is such that Baker is the best option for this season, and it comes down to the FO having to 'eat poo' (as you say), then this is a non-issue and we should get ready for 6 Week1.

If DW gets a year off, all that matters is whether Baker is better than Brissett. You are allowed to think he is not.

You are also allowed to think the QB moves by the front office this off-season have NOT been boneheaded. I don't think they could have handled this any worse if they had actually TRIED to screw it up.

I say that there is zero chance of it happening.

I don't see this FO (particularly the HC) swallowing pride and reaching out to Baker.
I don't see Baker wanting to put the old uniform back on.
I think they have made peace with the notion that they are "All In" on their plan, Come Hell or High Water.
I do NOT think there is a continuation of some altruistic "we just want the best person under center". I think they want "the best person under center that isn't the guy we tossed aside".
I do NOT think they want to enter into any action that opens up reasons for people to further question and criticise this trade, which would DEFINITELY happen if Baker plays and we do well enough to make the playoffs or more.

I think you are spot on there. I'll add these in order:

If DW is out, the FO+ should reach out to Baker...but I doubt they will. And not doing so would be egregious IMO;
Baker may not "want" to put the uni back on, but he isn't walking away from $19MM. So his return - or not - is squarely on the FO+;
I hope they are all in on their plan - whether one likes it or not;
They may acknowledge privately that Baker is better than Brissett BUT not worth the headache Baker gives them;
That would be sad if they'd rather lose and look "good" than "win" and eat some crow. That's not a hallmark of a championship entity...especially given the draft capital and cap $$$ flushed away as part of it all.

If the Browns invite Baker to TC, he has to come if he wants to collect that $18.8M. If he wants offers in his FA year next spring, he needs to appear and play well. The only thing that needs addressing by the Browns *might* be an agreement not to use the franchise tag in 2023, but even that is probably unlikely enough to ignore. The ball is entirely in the Browns court in the event that Watson is out for 10 or more games. He should have told the reporter asking the questions at his camp "You're asking the wrong guy.".

j/c:

Hopefully, Baker will be traded soon. If a team wants him, it seems likely they would want him there at the start of TC. He can then become another team's problem and not ours.

IMO he already said that ^ (underlined) when he stated that a reunion would require "some reaching out". That left the door wide open for the FO+ to invite him to TC.

Our problem would then be bigger than Baker. The problem would be with every QB remaining on the roster...ith all of those eligible not being as good a QB as Baker. I'd like to have a winning team and Baker gives us the best chance between him, Brissett and Dobbs.

I was watching First Take this morning and they were talking about that the Browns don't view Baker as a Super Bowl qb. Neither do I. As I have said several times, if Watson does not play we have no chance of winning the Super Bowl. I also think--but do not know---that the Browns might think that Brissett is a better fit than Baker w/the team. While I think Baker has a higher ceiling than JB, I also feel he is a lower floor. JB will bring some maturity and less inconsistent play even though he is rather inconsistent himself. He should also be a better fit w/our OL, RBs, and Stefanski should be able to scheme around that. But again, we aren't going to the dance w/out Watson.

I should add they said the Browns should trade Baker to Seattle and then trade for Jimmy G. Not sure if that is feasible, but I forgot to add it earlier.

Here is the reality some seem to be missing in all of this. Baker led this team to the playoffs in 2020 when he was actually healthy. In an injury riddled season he performed poorly. Now here's the rub the Browns are facing. Baker will be 100% healthy going into the 2022 season. We all saw, even though some refuse to admit it, when he was healthy in 2020 and before he was injured in 2021.

Can you imagine the backlash the Browns would receive if they allowed Baker to play and he led the team the the payoffs again? If he comes out ripping it and winning like they did in 2020? That's a risk they know they would be taking. They have also seen and watched him do that in 2020. Can you imagine how much worse this watson debacle would look then?

Don't expect them to take that risk. At this point they can't afford any more heat than they've already brought upon themselves.

Fair enough (except the maturity issue that is overblown IMO). The players know the deal. If Baker gives them a better chance to win than does Brissett, the players know that. Rolling with an inferior QB...self-inflicted and on-purpose...should go over like a fart in church.

Baker was quite consistent in the 9.25 games or so before his injury that blew up '21. He still had his warts...but if we assume those warts still exist after he's healed up, then it is fair to also assume that the same Baker from those 9.25 games is still in him. That Baker - with Landry/Higgins/Hooper - was reasonably one Higgins-fumble away from playing in the AFC Conference Championship game. Brissett could never do what Baker did over that span of time...with much less talent to throw to then than now.

FWIW: I think the First Take guys are wildly lazy. Too much glitz and not enough substance...especially in this dead time. Trade what for Jimmy G? Jimmy is no more mobile than is a healthy Baker. You have already opined about the $25MM or so guaranteed that JG carries...with a possibly still-healing throwing shoulder.

The FO won't ask him back...but they should.

Healthy Baker last year. Nearly 2 full games at 80% completion . Injured. 57% completion . ( I posted the stats before and I'm going from memory) That was flowing 2020 last 9 games top 5 PFF grade.

Do I think 2022 is a top 5 QB or likely to throw for 80%? No. But I expect him to be wayyyy above 57%.

If folks think we can get to the playoffs with steady play from Brissett we could go further and deeper with BM.... But I agree with others, it ain't happ. No way, no how.

Why is it when posters bring up Baker's 80% completion %
That's the only stat they bring up
They seem to easily overlook he threw for more INTS than TDS.
Let's face it. The Chiefs and Texans werent exactly the best in pass defense
Teams passed on them easily in 2022
Defenses figured out keeping Mayfield in the pocket
His 5'10 height would work in their favor
Sorry, his injury was not connected to his ability to process coverages

I gave you facts. You gave me opinions. And Some would call it a lie when you call a 6 ft QB 5'-10"

So purple, our front office won’t reach out to baker because…… they are afraid he will have too much success??? Maybe lead us to the playoffs?? Holy cow!!! That would be just awful!! Apparently they are not aware of two things. First browns fans would really enjoy a run like that ( we are entitled to a little enjoyment aren’t we??) and second if baker led us to a season like that his value on the trade market would go up exponentially. Who knows what he would be worth after a really good season compared to after an injury wracked crappy season.

It our guys are that insecure and so prideful they would not do what was best for the team, maybe we have the wrong guys up there.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that comment is a long, long way from a fact. I don't believe that for a second. And no one who isn't a bigger Baker fan than a Brown's fan believes it either.

6'1

6' 0⅝"

Just joshing w/you, Super.

That's an interesting way of re-wording what I wrote, but, essentially, yes.

For one, the fact that fans might enjoy something is NOT part of any equation outside of the sales and marketing departments. Period. So, the fact that some fans may feel some entitlements to something has no bearing on anything, whatsoever.

Yes, it WOULD boost his value... for an offseason contract in free agency. If you think they'd roll with him because he's the better option at QB, have enough success to boost his value dramatically and still trade him before Week 10 and risk plunging the team into a losing streak under Brisket, I would say that you'd be delusional. As he plays better, he's going to require higher picks in a trade, but his contract is up at the end of the season. Nobody is giving up big picks mid-season for a half season rental, and he isn't going to agree to an extension with any team he doesn't want to go to.... so, he's hitting free agency where there will be LOTS of bidders that won't have to give up picks.
So, since we now know he wouldn't boost his value for a trade during the season, that part is moot.

That leaves us with the altruistic notion that they'd simply play him because he gives us the best chance to win..... I simply don't believe this FO will do that. I don't think it matters because I think he's going to be traded before camps open, but if he isn't, I think he's sitting... or, at best, he'll be 4th string. I *firmly* believe that there is no chance this front office has the stones to risk the public backlash and making this trade even worse by having the QB they're discarding go out and show that they wasted a ton of picks and even more Cap capital to bring in a guy that can't even replace him this year. And no, Vers, this isn't about being a "Baker fan" and not a "Browns fan". It's strictly about this FO and their decision making around this whole debacle.

Well, if say he is the 4th QB and the other three stink it up while Mayfield sits, the public backlash will be like a Tsunami on the shores of Lake Erie.

That said, I can’t see them going into the season with Baker within a thousand miles of Ohio.

My opinion is that NFL FO and coaching jobs are tenuous at best. The turnover rate is extremely high. Bill Belichick got fired. I don't believe that any of these guys would risk their jobs because they are afraid of Baker showing them up. They do what they think is best to win because it aides in their job security. One could argue that they make wrong decisions, but they don't intentionally lessen their chances of winning. No way.

If Watson is gone for the season, If I'm Baker I come back for the last year of my rookie contract. He is not looking at being a stsarter anywhere else at this point. He knows he is gone at the end of the year, so why not and earn a big payday. If he played and the Browns have a good year, he, knowing he will be a free agent, could cash in on a big payday. No, it won't be in Cleveland, but at this point, it don't matter. He can play for a contract. Take this team to the playoffs, and the offers would be flooding in at the end of the year.

This topic is meaningless unless you are somehow convincing Jimmy (or Dee?) Haslam...
They've gutted the quarterback room on 3 separate or more occasions,

I wish as an organization they would stick by their man, I mean, it was only a couple 1000+ days ago that they drafted Baker #1 overall, and already they act all, telegraph- telephone-=obsolete by the situation.
It really doesn't matter, but
I gurarntee one thing, How I feel about ...
at this point I'm so non plussed ...

Baker didn't lose 12 games a year, even 3 out of 4 years, let's not pretend that the Browns with Baker, were on the same level as the Browns in the 2009-2011 years range.
The Cowboys stuck by Dak, through a bad year, and the Vikings stuck by Kirk Cousins through a bad year,

heck! anything less than 11 wins is cause for a fire-sale in the Haslams book nevermind how things might improve the following year if they'd take a hands off approach for once. Zero, or one wins... or 11 wins or more, anything else = blow it all up.
Not the coolest idea. (analytics)

I get that, and normally I may even go along with it. I just don't feel it happening here. We're All-In and will double-down on Basset.

And, with this team's luck he actually will play like Tyrod and get injured in his first series and we'll be down to the dude whose name I haven't even bothered to learn.

Do you or Prppl, either one, really think that the Buck doesn't stop with Jimmy Haslam, and there is nothing the Browns FO is going to do that doesn't have the Haslams' approval, and they are really not with the authority to do their own thing, or go rogue, or go out on their own limb.
" They do what they think is best to win because it aides in their job security"

( Well only if it doesn't directly contradict the owner who has the firing authority on their jobs, at an "at will" basis.)

It doesn't matter if they Win more, (for their job security), if it means the Browns' Owner loses Face in the (#1) contest that he got in with his franchise quarterback.
If Berry, or whomever is in the FO, goes against the Owner, and makes the Owner(s) look bad, then the Front Office will be fired before the ink would dry.
So WHATEVER decision the FO appears to make, is HIGHLY influenced by the Whims of the team Owners.

(Whether that fits anyones' 'Baker is bad' narrative or not.) dream on. It wouldn't prove anything.

Best case scenario is we have Baker until DW is available. Front office needs to suck it up and make it happen.

" you can't see them going into the season with Baker within 1000 miles of Ohio."

How far is Detroit, the Lions. 50 miles. (stranger things have happened.)

I think you raise a good point about what happens if Brissett gets hurt. Dobbs has only thrown around 17 passes in the NFL. I think that is right. I was looking at available qbs earlier today and the pickings are slim.

I could be wrong, but I think both parties [Baker and the Browns] are done w/each other. I think it's past the point of either side "reaching out." We can debate who started it. The Browns went after Watson. Baker is the one who said it was in the best interests for both parties to part ways. But, who cares who started it? I just don't see an amicable reconciliation. Then again, I could be dead wrong.

In my mind I'd propose an unprecedented, perhaps, trade in the NFL, Detroit and Cleveland trade quarterbacks, with an additional caveat. The team, Browns or Lions, which finishes with a worse record in 2022-2023, also surrenders it's 2nd round pick to the other team in the April 2023 draft. Goff is no Mayfield, but he's not Brissett either, as in is better than, Either fan base could more accept it if there were the possibility of a 2nd round pick just by finishing with a better record, and it's just finishing better than the Lions, should be a piece of cake, and their side would feel the same way.
(No, no way I'd ever trade Baker, but if they' re going to.. ah Puke)

Actually versatile, I was just taking off from the final point in purple’s post up toward the top. Given that it is dang near a universal opinion that baker gives us the best chance to win this year, assuming dw not available, this might explain some of the reluctance to work with baker. You have to admit if baker played and lit it up, doubts about the trade might creep in with some folks. Neither that nor hurt feelings should keep us from playing our best qb.

Then we need a front office with bigger stones!!

I'm sorry he is 5'11. Look at him and Kyler Murray side by side
He is not 2 inches taller than Murray
I did give you facts
He threw for more INTS than TDS in the 1st 2 games
Defenses had success keeping Mayfield in the pocket
That's fact
It's unreal the love Baker gets around here.
Its like the Cheesecake Factory 24/7.
Baker isn't coming back to the Browns. But some people
Can't face that
But let's play hypotheticals.
If he came back to the Browns , the Browns arent a automatic
Playoff team with him.

No one is an automatic. How’s my ex-girlfriend treatin ya these days?

Our freaky QB will be out for 2022, it seems. If he plays in 2023, that’s a long time between NFL snaps. The thought of Jacoby and Dobbs being our top 2 in the room?

Demoralizing. What a crap show this is turning into. Haslam done good for a bit there, couple seasons.

We want ya back, Bake.

Baker is over in Cleveland. Give up the dream.

Watson ends up with 8 games. Brissett at QB brings us 5 wins in those 8 games. 4 at worst. I think it time to face the music.

Even if Watson is out the year, we still push for playoffs. QB's don't win game by themself. We have a good team and I have faith in the other players on this team to chip in for wins.

If we had to sit through crappy QB's like Frye, Weeden, and a host of others on crappy teams, I can sit through Brissett on a very good team because Brissett is better than those other QB's.

That is just a general comment.

I don't. And I don't think the Browns do either. It's hard for me to comprehend how overrated he is by some fans. He is not way, way better than Brissett. I also think that if Baker were to come back, his fans would be calling for Stefanski's head next year. It's always someone else's fault for Baker's issues. I just hope a trade happens in quick order so the team can move on and he can move on. Perhaps he learns from his mistakes? I love redemption stories and would like to see him get himself together. Somewhere else.

The way this has thus far unfolded with the Browns saying they've done all the due diligence, which I think they failed at, tells me they very well could be boneheads