DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus SC Rulings continued

Yes, people can. But I bet you won't leave it at that.

Mmmm hmmmm.....

j/c

US top court expands state power over Native land in Oklahoma

The state can prosecute non-Native Americans for crimes committed on tribal land when the victim is Native, the United States Supreme Court rules.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...state-power-over-native-land-in-oklahoma

It's a long article so I won't bother posting the entire thing.

One thing of note that I did find very interesting if one is looking for the motivation of this ruling, at least by one of them, is his comment was interesting to say the least now that activists have been calling for abortion on native lands....


Things that make you go hmmm....

Hey Portland no comments of this video? Funny what does the DR who has preformed hundreds of abortions call a fetus "a baby" yep thats right a baby. Not a cell clump. Over and over he says Baby. He does not say they rip off cell clumps. He says they rip off arms. He doesn't say they rip off cell clumps. Nope he says they rip off legs. Hmmmm does he say they crush the cell clumps and suction them out? Once again nope. He says they crush the skull and suck out the brain matter, then have to collect all the pieces of the crushed skull.

wish you went this hard in the paint for the children already living like you are for the unborn.

but we all know you won't be posting non stop about the children getting gunned down in this country like you do for control over women's choices.

and I wish those who get so upset at school shootings went as hard in the paint against killing the children in the womb as they do outside the womb. Honestly Swish I just can't understand anybody who is for killing children at any time. I mean look at the outrage (rightfully so IMO) for those Kids killed in school shootings, yet that number comes nowhere near the 750,00 to 1,000,000 Humans killed in the womb.

Four hundred twenty-four thousand kids are waiting for a home on any given day. Glad we can double or triple that number, and such a Christian thing to do.

5.4 infant deaths per 1000 live births in the US, glad we can add to that number one too. You know damn well the unwanted kids, helpless kids, are going to become targets for fake SIDS, etc. Going to be a lot of men who will despise those babies for costing them a few bucks a month for 18 years. Going to be a lot of single moms unable to provide. The harm of unintended consequences will outweigh anything legal abortions did. These kids will have known life, taken a breath, only to be traumatized, abused, neglected, and killed. I wonder if the Christians will call themselves baby killers then?

GM… I heard, and don’t care what the doctor said. Still none of my business what other people do medically in their private lives.

Well then we should at least be on the same side when it comes to getting laws in place that make adoption easier with less red tape right?

Should have been voting for that first. Instead you voted for the idiots that have put every major road block in front of helping single mothers, creating programs for the poor, etc. Now you suddenly care about the festering wound of a system we call foster care. So convenient to suddenly act as though you give a crap. My guess is you’ll continue to pull the lever for the GOP while claiming you ‘want to help all the unwanted children’. You get to pat yourself on the back for ‘caring’ while actually doing nothing. Meanwhile the problem will only get worse and worse and worse.

Found online…
Here’s some stories told by 70, 80 and 90+ women from pre RvW.
-"I kept telling my husband 6 kids was enough. After awhile, I just started throwing them in the river."
-"I knew it was my father's so I just left it in the hole in the outhouse."
-"I just shoved dirt in its mouth and left it in the woods."
-"I gave birth on my friend's couch. I don't know what she did with it. We never talked about it again."


Welcome to the world you recreated.

Because abortion is now illegal?

Because red states will take choice away, and if GOPers take control of the government with a super majority, they will do it nationally. They've already said it out loud. Forced birth is their thing.

My views on abortion do not align w/GM's, but this is a pretty bad argument. Some of us have tried to initiate conversations on gang violence and black-on-black crime that results in children being gunned down only to be shut down immediately by others on this board. I have seen you say that "we have discussed this thousands of times" and others jump in and the end result is that we NEVER actually discuss these problems that are killing our children and adults, for that matter.

My guess is in about 15 years these problems will grow exponentially worse as the droves of unwanted, and as a result poorly parented kids become lawless young adults. But at least GM wants a better foster system. So we’re thankfully already halfway there.

I've already said I don't agree w/GM's views. I mean......I do to a certain point, but I'm much more moderate in that I wish women and men were more conscious of birth control and abstinence rather than abortion, but I think women should be permitted to abort. However, gang violence plagues our nation and no one wishes to discuss it.

Ok wait…first the unborn was a fetus, then a baby, then children, and now humans? Dude, take a deep breath. That’s a breathing human. Kids gunned down and murdered in schools were breathing. Better get your priorities corrected bro.

It seems to me that the foundation of the disagreement is that we don't KNOW when human life begins.
Many people BELIEVE human life begins at fertilization. So their stance makes sense.
Many people BELIEVE human life begins at some later point. So their stance makes sense.

How do we ever definitively answer the question: When does life begin?
Until we can, there will be no clear consensus.
Seems like a thesis paper for some Ph.D candidate in philosophy.

Having said that, I ask: Why are so there so many pro birthers out there?
Why are so many people so adamant against abortion yet just as adamant against "the socialist policies" that would help the child that no one would argue is human life.

I ask: Why are so many men so obsessed w/aborting babies out there?

Life would begin at conception. The fertilized egg is a living cell. At the first division the DNA is set and is a mixture of DNA from both parents. This is not a unique life. Left without interference the chances of birth really are quite high. It is a human embryo, a human fetus, a human child.

Demonization and dehumanization are a very effective form of propaganda. Take away the human portion and it is "just a clump of cells". it is not. A mole is a clump of cells, and no matter how much you hope a mole will never be a sentient being.

I have said several times I don't particularly like abortion, but I am not looking to ban it. I don't like it because it is a unique human we are destroying. Doing that callously and without regard for the fact it is indeed a human (embryo, fetus, child, spawn, lump of cells) is despicable to me. It is not a religious thing, it is a right to life thing.

The question is not a question of science or philosophy, it is a political/legal one.

Because this is the way the MAGA men think…….

Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around

It's down to me
The difference in the clothes she wears
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb

And ain't it the truth babe?

Under my thumb
It's a squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

It's down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what she's told down to me
The change has come
She's under my thumb
Ah, ah, say it's alright

Under my thumb
A Siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
She's the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

It's down to me
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Ah, take it easy babe
Yeah

It's down to me, oh yeah
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Yeah, it feels alright

Under my thumb
Her eyes are just kept to herself
Under my thumb, well I
I can still look at someone else

It's down to me, oh that's what I said
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Say, it's alright

Say it's all
Say it's all

Take it easy babe
Take it easy babe
Feels alright
Take it, take it easy babe

Well, when they are successful with IVF, they may have to do "selective reduction." That one poses a real quandary.

And the issue of for rape and incest is another challenge.

You mis-interpret the meaning of that statement.
I understand why there are pro-lifers
I don't understand why there are pro-birthers.
A pro-birther is someone who fights for birth but then doesn't care about the ensuing life

Okay, but my question remains the same.

Why are so many men so obsessed w/aborting babies out there?

I'm sorry, but I have to edit this. I was asking my question in the same syntax that you used, but it's driving me nuts. Allow me to rephrase it.

Why are so many men obsessed w/aborting babies?

Heck, OCD said women aborting babies were dignified and heroic. What?

It's not just men, if you have not figured that one out, so the question is fundamentally associated with the rights of an individual.

In the declaration, we are told that we have rights, including life liberty and pursuit of happiness.

In the preamble of the constitution, we are told that we are promoting the general welfare, ensuring domestic tranquility and securing the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our prosperity.

This decision fails to do any of that.

You did not answer my question. But, I completely understand that is the norm around here. Asking questions or making statements about one side are accepted while doing the same for the other side are not.

Btw----there was a reason I did not include women, "if you have not figured that one out...."

Men aren’t “obsessed with aborting babies”. We’re obsessed over women having liberty over their own body. In all my relationships I’ve never personally had a run in with the need for an abortion. Though one of my partners had prior to me. If I were her under similar circumstances to what lead her there, I would have aborted too. (F that guy that was involved!) I’m not a fan of abortion. I wish there were fewer abortions. I wish there was no rape or incest that lead to pregnancies. I wish we as a society discussed and taught/talked more openly about family planning, contraception, etc and had more programs to encourage IUD usage in teen girls and allowing vasectomies for 18+ year olds. I could go on.
So no, I’m not obsessed with aborting babies. I’m meeting reality on reality’s terms. There’s over 400,000 unwanted kids in foster care. There’s already too many single parents out there. People are struggling to get by without the cost of kids. People are underinsured and the cost of having a child is crazy in this country. Programs such as WIC are underfunded and constantly on the chopping block of the GOP. I could go on and on and on. Putting people already living in precarious financial situations into dire straights…with an unwanted child now involved… it’s insanity to me.
This madness doesn’t need further exacerbation brought on by a wave of more unwanted children.
I don’t understand how anyone can’t step back and see that this is heading towards higher crime rates, higher teen pregnancy rates for at least the next two generations, higher foster care numbers, and a further drain on the entire welfare system?
Abortion is not something I ‘enjoy’ or any other perverse interpretation others on this board may think. It’s a decision that has to be made on a personal level.
Ultimately I’m not involved. It’s none of my or anyone else’s business. Period.

Heading out in 5 minutes so this is a little bit of a rushed response so likely incomplete.

Difficult to answer. Some potential thoughts:

1, interesting topic to debate and everybody has to have an opinion and make it known
2, controversial topic and everybody has to have an opinion and make it known
3, this decision has many implications on other SC decisions - see Clearance Thomas' opinion statement
4, it's a woman's body but she doesn't get pregnant by herself so men are affected, though clearly not as much as women are.
5, they support women empowerment
6, there are few women on this platform so men discuss the topic then argue the topic. Once arguing starts the passion escalates.
7, they worry about the implications of all the unwanted pregnancies/births
8, any combination of the above
9, I am sure there are things I missed.

For IVF I don't think there is a distinction. The created embryo is still living human cells. The biggest caveat would be that to continue to live it would need implanting in a uterus. That doesn't make it less of a human lump of cells, it just needs a little more help I suppose.

In the case of rape, there is a human life created (well, if there is a pregnancy, that doesn't always happen with sex, forced or not). Rape doesn't change that the product is human life.

Again I didn't say we should ban abortion, so the path taken to pregnancy, for me at least, is not important. I know it is waved around and weaponized by some, but I don't really care how a women got to that point. I don't think laws on abortion should take into account how we got there either, I mean if abortion after 30 weeks is illegal, it shouldn't suddenly matter it was rape. I'd like to think if it was rape we wouldn't get to 30 weeks in that case, if the mother doesn't want the pregnancy. This is not to imply anything about the health of the mother, this was solely about the path to pregnancy.

So human life is human life and should have a right to life, though it may not have earned a final say in that. Someone else may hold those rights for it until such time as it can voice their own concerns. I think it all poses a quandary as this becomes of those rights where the right of one infringes the right of the other, you have to weigh who's right is stronger.

They don't want any skin in the game, social policies cost money, but they want their religious views observed by all. And even if it's not religious, it's political.

They’ve made this clear…

This to you and Port.

I get your points, but concern and obsession are different things. The amount of time and vehemence displayed is alarming. One could also argue that pro-lifers are concerned in protecting the rights of a fetus because that said fetus is completely at the mercy of the women who is carrying it.

There are no easy answers here. No one size fits all explanations or stances. I understand the arguments on both sides. What I don't understand are the extremists. I also don't understand how so many of you feel you have the right to tell others how to form their own opinions on the subject. It appals me to read all the hateful comments directed at those who are on the opposite side. That's not productive.

One thing I would add to this point. Thomas' concurring opinion is his thoughts and, while it might signal his future thoughts and decisions, it is not a biding part of the court's opinion. It can be cited to support lower court decisions but those decisions still need to be based off the joined opinion of the court. Much like a dissenting opinion cannot be used to decide a case in a lower court (though with Heller the certainly try).

Altio was very specific in writing the opinion (that was joined by the majority) that the opinion is specific to abortion and is not a vehicle to suddenly go tearing down any other right that currently enjoys federal protection. Anything else would need to be brought up through the system and the right question would need to be posed to the court, and they would need to accept hearing it. It is a lot of work to get a question in front of the court usually, unless they feel like they just answered it and you didn't hear it.

Yeah, he has thoughts and prayers that all of a sudden they'll decide to fix it.

And then they'll blame that rise in crime on the democrats.

Technically this should not be any mans decision. I would be fine with removing the decision and leaving it to individuals.

This country was founded on the very principal that we have equality, inalienable rights and rights granted by our government.

We have struggled with understanding equality in this country, that a lot of people were excluded from for a long, long, time.

So it is a prickly subject, and everyone cares about rights. That is taught from the first class in history.

Some people feel strongly about the meaning of "all men being created equal" and its subsequent interpretations to actually mean all humans. Wars were fought, people jailed and died to fight for causes that they truly believed in.

When the government/courts says you have the "right" to do something, and then changes its mind that is going to make a bunch of people angry.

That is why everyone should care.

What a lame dodge. Even you know it's about standing up for a woman's right to choose.

As we've seen in other locations of this board, some go harder in the paint to stand up for women than others.