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Yeah, WSU is much more knowledgeable than the analytics department at PFF.

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Originally Posted by CapCity Dawg
Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

This isn't complicated. The coach watches every practice all week. It's his duty to determine who is performing and who is not. It is his call to make based on what the medical staff tells him and what he sees in practice. That's why the call rests on his shoulders, not the players. How many weeks do you think Stefanski could watch Baker perform poorly with this/these injuries and not sit him? How many weeks do you think are reasonable to continue to play him no matter what he says in terms of being able to play? It seems that even if your scenario were correct, that you think Stefanski has no responsibility for continuing to trot Baker out there when it's obvious he can't perform to his normal level. Yeah, keep beating that drum.


Unfortunately for Stefanski it came down to Hurt Baker vs. Keenum... Not hurt vs not hurt Baker. If Baker says he can go and a 60% healthy Baker gives you a better chance than a healthy Keenum, then Mayfield plays. I think this is the part that is lost too often. Do I think Mayfield was effected by the injuries? Absolutely. Were the injuries of the type that would have healed by sitting for two weeks? It didn't sound like it. Were they the type of injuries that were high risk of getting worse if playing? From both the medical and coaching staff, they said no. So.. the question comes down to, how much of Baker are you getting? Once that is determined, is that % of Baker better than what you can do on offense with Keenum? In nearly every case each week, it was the % of Baker available.

You can't simply say, if Baker isn't 100%, don't play him. The decision needs to be made on what available players give you the best opportunity to win. A 60% healthy Baker Mayfield equals a 90-100% healthy Case Keenum or Jacoby Brissett. As long as the injury isn't at risk of getting worse by playing.

Serious question - How do you all think it would have played out had Stefanski sat Baker while Baker was in the press and on social media saying that he can play?


Wow, not sure there is a more difficult question to answer...

My hypothesis would go something like this...

Baker is pulled week 6 after injury in Cardinals game. Going into the game they were 3-2, came out of game 3-3, go on to a 6-11 or 7-10 season. They blame the injury to Mayfield and his full recovery is making headlines to why they are back as a contender in 2022. They also have a built in reason for evaluating Mayfield in year 5.

I can tell you this, if they never went after Watson, we would have had a MUCH more exciting Browns talk in every way possible. The 2022 season would seem like the great battle of the North coming up.

Now it is just, how many games will Watson get, where is Baker going to play and what will Brissett's team look like... It is quite depressing.

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peen, I agree w/you about catching the football. I do want to add that route running is huge in the NFL. Also, you need smart guys that can make sight adjustments and hot reads, especially if you have a qb who can do the same.

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I understand your points.

However, everything in football is relative to who you play. IMO the Browns roster by comparison to others is very good.

Of course quarterback is huge. Brissett is a backup. If he plays a lot of games. You can not expect great results. If he can win against average teams that is plus.

We can win with Brissett but I would not expect to much more than 500.

DW playing. We are in the mix to win it all.

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whatever age it was when a parent or sibling threw that first ball that hit you in the face.

Dare I say Peen you then played OG...getting hit in the face was a deterrent to catch the ball in the future...lol laugh


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Even w/all the injuries in 2021, the Browns OL ranked 8th overall in 2021.

This is unbelievable.


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oober, I don't make things up.


Quote
8. CLEVELAND BROWNS (DOWN 3)

LT Jedrick Wills Jr. | 65.9
LG Joel Bitonio | 93.6
C J.C. Tretter | 79.4
RG Wyatt Teller | 84.4
RT Blake Hance | 56.5

Cleveland’s starting five forms one of the best offensive lines in the game. However, Jack Conklin played in only seven games before injury shut him down at right tackle, and Blake Hance produced a 36.9 PFF pass-blocking grade in his stead on over 600 snaps. Jedrick Wills Jr. missed several games at left tackle, at times leaving the Browns with backups at both tackle spots against some elite pass-rushers.

Few lines were as good in the run game, with Wyatt Teller backing up his breakout season last year with an 84.4 overall PFF grade this year and an 87.7 mark as a run-blocker
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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Even w/all the injuries in 2021, the Browns OL ranked 8th overall in 2021.

This is unbelievable.

Per this website of Browns 2021 roster:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2021_roster.htm

Conklin started (7) games last year. I believe he left injured in (2) of the (7).

Hance played in all (17) games and started in (8)...a G playing LT/RT...again.

Hudson played in (12) games and started (4)...I wonder if he has more post-high school snaps at OT than DL yet.

Wills started (13) games...can't remember how many times he left during a game.

Stats are fun...actually watching the games and remembering the ebb and flow of the season is much more fun tho.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
oober, I don't make things up.


Quote
8. CLEVELAND BROWNS (DOWN 3)

LT Jedrick Wills Jr. | 65.9
LG Joel Bitonio | 93.6
C J.C. Tretter | 79.4
RG Wyatt Teller | 84.4
RT Blake Hance | 56.5

Cleveland’s starting five forms one of the best offensive lines in the game. However, Jack Conklin played in only seven games before injury shut him down at right tackle, and Blake Hance produced a 36.9 PFF pass-blocking grade in his stead on over 600 snaps. Jedrick Wills Jr. missed several games at left tackle, at times leaving the Browns with backups at both tackle spots against some elite pass-rushers.

Few lines were as good in the run game, with Wyatt Teller backing up his breakout season last year with an 84.4 overall PFF grade this year and an 87.7 mark as a run-blocker
.

So...our G-C-G combo was really good and our OTs were average or bad...hmmm...where did I read that already...in this thread even?

I love how the stats then included Hance's pass-blocking grade and noted that the starting OTs were out against some elite pass-rushers. Elite pass rushers make their money on the edge...where we had backups more often than normal. What could go wrong? At least PFF graded us at #8 tho.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
oober, I don't make things up.


Quote
8. CLEVELAND BROWNS (DOWN 3)

LT Jedrick Wills Jr. | 65.9
LG Joel Bitonio | 93.6
C J.C. Tretter | 79.4
RG Wyatt Teller | 84.4
RT Blake Hance | 56.5

Cleveland’s starting five forms one of the best offensive lines in the game. However, Jack Conklin played in only seven games before injury shut him down at right tackle, and Blake Hance produced a 36.9 PFF pass-blocking grade in his stead on over 600 snaps. Jedrick Wills Jr. missed several games at left tackle, at times leaving the Browns with backups at both tackle spots against some elite pass-rushers.

Few lines were as good in the run game, with Wyatt Teller backing up his breakout season last year with an 84.4 overall PFF grade this year and an 87.7 mark as a run-blocker
.

I know our interior was really good, but our tackles were BEAT UP last year. At one point we had both starters and the primary backup out. When Wills came back he struggled on account of the ankle.


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You could have said "thank you" for providing proof.

Regarding your reply..........that is why we slipped from #1 to #8. It's also why we are ranked 3rd going into this season. And this thread was supposed to be about what the team looks like going into this upcoming season. Our roster is not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.

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... and that's why I said it's unbelievable that we were still that high even after the injury hell we had.

Pending Conklin's health/status for Week1 and Harris success in picking up where Tretter left off0, this Oline should come back with a vengeance.


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Ever since I have been on this board, I have stated that it's really hard for people to evaluate OL play. They see a qb get sacked and they immediately blame the OL. They see a long completion and immediately praise the qb. Just think about this...........the pass blocking win rate is set at 2.5 seconds. Release the ball w/in that time frame and you are doing you job as a qb. Hold it longer and it is too long. Pretend you are under center. Drop back and try to process some moving information in less than 3 seconds.

Think about some of our guys over the years. Timid got sacked a ton. Holcomb came in and the sacks went down. Frye got sacked a ton. DA came in and was hardly ever sacked. Baker got sacked quite a bit, but in the three games in which he did not play, our two other qbs were sacked once. It matters.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Ever since I have been on this board, I have stated that it's really hard for people to evaluate OL play. They see a qb get sacked and they immediately blame the OL. They see a long completion and immediately praise the qb. Just think about this...........the pass blocking win rate is set at 2.5 seconds. Release the ball w/in that time frame and you are doing you job as a qb. Hold it longer and it is too long. Pretend you are under center. Drop back and try to process some moving information in less than 3 seconds.

Think about some of our guys over the years. Timid got sacked a ton. Holcomb came in and the sacks went down. Frye got sacked a ton. DA came in and was hardly ever sacked. Baker got sacked quite a bit, but in the three games in which he did not play, our two other qbs were sacked once. It matters.

If your OTs are backups blocking like an office chair (if that good) - and/or are actually Gs - and your starting #1 WR runs his own routes...and your most-explosive pass-catcher is a 6'5" 250+ lb TE you might need some time to throw the ball in the unlikely event a guy gets open.

QB play is difficult to evaluate...people see a QB get sacked and say he holds the ball too long...when he's throwing to cancers and injured possession WRs...and a plodding TE who falls down every three yards. Tie your opposite arm down to your chest and pretend you are throwing a football.

See how that works? Before you get all butt-hurt and make this a Baker thang...what you and I both posted apply to every team and every QB.

In our case, we had bad OT play and bad pass-catchers who were not invited back this year...along with our QB. Must be everyone's fault except for the Head Coach.

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Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by CapCity Dawg
Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

This isn't complicated. The coach watches every practice all week. It's his duty to determine who is performing and who is not. It is his call to make based on what the medical staff tells him and what he sees in practice. That's why the call rests on his shoulders, not the players. How many weeks do you think Stefanski could watch Baker perform poorly with this/these injuries and not sit him? How many weeks do you think are reasonable to continue to play him no matter what he says in terms of being able to play? It seems that even if your scenario were correct, that you think Stefanski has no responsibility for continuing to trot Baker out there when it's obvious he can't perform to his normal level. Yeah, keep beating that drum.


Unfortunately for Stefanski it came down to Hurt Baker vs. Keenum... Not hurt vs not hurt Baker. If Baker says he can go and a 60% healthy Baker gives you a better chance than a healthy Keenum, then Mayfield plays. I think this is the part that is lost too often. Do I think Mayfield was effected by the injuries? Absolutely. Were the injuries of the type that would have healed by sitting for two weeks? It didn't sound like it. Were they the type of injuries that were high risk of getting worse if playing? From both the medical and coaching staff, they said no. So.. the question comes down to, how much of Baker are you getting? Once that is determined, is that % of Baker better than what you can do on offense with Keenum? In nearly every case each week, it was the % of Baker available.

You can't simply say, if Baker isn't 100%, don't play him. The decision needs to be made on what available players give you the best opportunity to win. A 60% healthy Baker Mayfield equals a 90-100% healthy Case Keenum or Jacoby Brissett. As long as the injury isn't at risk of getting worse by playing.

Serious question - How do you all think it would have played out had Stefanski sat Baker while Baker was in the press and on social media saying that he can play?


Wow, not sure there is a more difficult question to answer...

My hypothesis would go something like this...

Baker is pulled week 6 after injury in Cardinals game. Going into the game they were 3-2, came out of game 3-3, go on to a 6-11 or 7-10 season. They blame the injury to Mayfield and his full recovery is making headlines to why they are back as a contender in 2022. They also have a built in reason for evaluating Mayfield in year 5.

I can tell you this, if they never went after Watson, we would have had a MUCH more exciting Browns talk in every way possible. The 2022 season would seem like the great battle of the North coming up.

Now it is just, how many games will Watson get, where is Baker going to play and what will Brissett's team look like... It is quite depressing.

Thanks, Irish, for the response. My question was not clear. I was not asking how the season would have turned out had we sat Baker, though I can see how my question could have been interpreted as such. My question was more about Baker being on social media and all, saying it was up to him whether or not he would play and he was good to go. If Stefanski would have sat him while Baker was insisting it was his call and he was going to play, how would that have played out? Would Baker have quietly gone along with it? Would there have been even more drama?


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Yeah, the Browns FO and coaching staff must have seen things just like you and polar opposite to me. That's why they rewarded Baker w/a brand new contract that made him one of the highest paid players in the league.

Or, maybe the Browns are just dumb? Surely not all other teams are that dumb. That's why they have been lining up offering multiple first round picks to the Browns to acquire Baker and are willing to give him a new, fully-guaranteed contract.

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Originally Posted by CapCity Dawg
Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by CapCity Dawg
Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

This isn't complicated. The coach watches every practice all week. It's his duty to determine who is performing and who is not. It is his call to make based on what the medical staff tells him and what he sees in practice. That's why the call rests on his shoulders, not the players. How many weeks do you think Stefanski could watch Baker perform poorly with this/these injuries and not sit him? How many weeks do you think are reasonable to continue to play him no matter what he says in terms of being able to play? It seems that even if your scenario were correct, that you think Stefanski has no responsibility for continuing to trot Baker out there when it's obvious he can't perform to his normal level. Yeah, keep beating that drum.


Unfortunately for Stefanski it came down to Hurt Baker vs. Keenum... Not hurt vs not hurt Baker. If Baker says he can go and a 60% healthy Baker gives you a better chance than a healthy Keenum, then Mayfield plays. I think this is the part that is lost too often. Do I think Mayfield was effected by the injuries? Absolutely. Were the injuries of the type that would have healed by sitting for two weeks? It didn't sound like it. Were they the type of injuries that were high risk of getting worse if playing? From both the medical and coaching staff, they said no. So.. the question comes down to, how much of Baker are you getting? Once that is determined, is that % of Baker better than what you can do on offense with Keenum? In nearly every case each week, it was the % of Baker available.

You can't simply say, if Baker isn't 100%, don't play him. The decision needs to be made on what available players give you the best opportunity to win. A 60% healthy Baker Mayfield equals a 90-100% healthy Case Keenum or Jacoby Brissett. As long as the injury isn't at risk of getting worse by playing.

Serious question - How do you all think it would have played out had Stefanski sat Baker while Baker was in the press and on social media saying that he can play?


Wow, not sure there is a more difficult question to answer...

My hypothesis would go something like this...

Baker is pulled week 6 after injury in Cardinals game. Going into the game they were 3-2, came out of game 3-3, go on to a 6-11 or 7-10 season. They blame the injury to Mayfield and his full recovery is making headlines to why they are back as a contender in 2022. They also have a built in reason for evaluating Mayfield in year 5.

I can tell you this, if they never went after Watson, we would have had a MUCH more exciting Browns talk in every way possible. The 2022 season would seem like the great battle of the North coming up.

Now it is just, how many games will Watson get, where is Baker going to play and what will Brissett's team look like... It is quite depressing.

Thanks, Irish, for the response. My question was not clear. I was not asking how the season would have turned out had we sat Baker, though I can see how my question could have been interpreted as such. My question was more about Baker being on social media and all, saying it was up to him whether or not he would play and he was good to go. If Stefanski would have sat him while Baker was insisting it was his call and he was going to play, how would that have played out? Would Baker have quietly gone along with it? Would there have been even more drama?

Oh, got it.. That's even harder to respond to. Now, I would put the probability of Emily saying something moreso than Baker. If asked in a presser or something, I would have been surprised if Baker said anything more than he's definitely hurt, he felt like he could go, but coach is doing what he thinks is best for the team. Remember, he would have had time to think about what he was going to say. It isn't like a post game presser, where the adrenaline is flowing and he sticks his foot in his mouth. Also, during season, I don't recall Baker saying things out of line on social media, that was after the season.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Yeah, the Browns FO and coaching staff must have seen things just like you and polar opposite to me. That's why they rewarded Baker w/a brand new contract that made him one of the highest paid players in the league.

Or, maybe the Browns are just dumb? Surely not all other teams are that dumb. That's why they have been lining up offering multiple first round picks to the Browns to acquire Baker and are willing to give him a new, fully-guaranteed contract.

I think it's more complex than that. If I were a GM, and looking to upgrade my QB situation, but not necessarily in dire need of one. I'd wait and see, knowing that there is a 95%+ chance that Cleveland will have to release Mayfield. Especially knowing there's also a chance Garappolo may be released as well. Why pay 18m for 1 year when you can wait it out and get it much cheaper?

Yes that changes if you are in dire need of a starting QB, but there's really not many teams in that position at this point that really have much shot at competing.


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So you created a "what if" question. Okay....


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I was being sarcastic, but the point is that if everything around Baker was so bad and the injury was so significant and if Baker was such a good qb........the Browns would have kept him and given him a new contract. Teams would trade for him if he was so good. Look at what teams were willing to give up for Watson in spite of all his off the field issues. There is a ton of evidence out there that Baker is not nearly the qb that some folks on this board say he is.

Anyway.........back to the roster. My feelings on the roster are very similar to PFF's. They have us ranked 6th overall. I have a hard time ranking things, but I think we are top ten for sure. Maybe top five???? Of course, we have to have Watson to vault us into those lofty standards. In the end, we have a realistic shot of potentially competing to win it all. That gives some of us a lot of hope.

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Originally Posted by FloridaFan
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Yeah, the Browns FO and coaching staff must have seen things just like you and polar opposite to me. That's why they rewarded Baker w/a brand new contract that made him one of the highest paid players in the league.

Or, maybe the Browns are just dumb? Surely not all other teams are that dumb. That's why they have been lining up offering multiple first round picks to the Browns to acquire Baker and are willing to give him a new, fully-guaranteed contract.

I think it's more complex than that. If I were a GM, and looking to upgrade my QB situation, but not necessarily in dire need of one. I'd wait and see, knowing that there is a 95%+ chance that Cleveland will have to release Mayfield. Especially knowing there's also a chance Garappolo may be released as well. Why pay 18m for 1 year when you can wait it out and get it much cheaper?

Yes that changes if you are in dire need of a starting QB, but there's really not many teams in that position at this point that really have much shot at competing.

I think the Panthers are in dire need.

1) Darnold played there last year, they know first hand what the Jets also found out the hard way, he isn't a starting caliber QB in the NFL.
2) Matt Rhule is 10-23.. He blamed that record on his coaching staff and rebuilt that staff this off season. If he falters again, the blame will land squarely on his shoulders. I would say he has to win 8 games to keep his job. That would be a 38% improvement over either of the past two years. Darnold has won 7 games once in his 4 years as a starting QB and possibly with better teams than he will have in 2022 in Carolina.
3) Fitterer didn't hire Rhule, however Rhule has been given a second chance to improve this team's record. I don't think Fitterer gives him a 3rd chance if he doesn't make a big improvement. I think he will want a chance to put his own coach in place before his chances are used up in Carolina.

With Rhule and Fitterer under the gun, I do think they are desperate and putting your careers on the line with Sam Darnold is borderline insane. That is why I think Baker ends up in Carolina prior to training camp starting. They are probably waiting to see if Watson gets a short suspension which lowers Baker's value. Anything short of a year suspension and I think Baker is traded prior to training camp, most likely to Carolina.

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The fact is that the Browns extended his contract. They saw proof positive that a healthy Baker was a good enough to help lead this team to the playoffs. So did the rest of us for anyone willing to admit it and not downplay his contribution to that. But it's the job of every FO to try and improve players at every position. People have told you over and over again that watson is the better QB on the field. So I have no idea WTH you're trying to argue here. Unless it's just to further trash Baker.... Hmmmm.....


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So you created a "what if" question. Okay....

As Stefanski did not sit Baker, yes it was a "what if" question.


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In that case.... I think it's a fabricated narrative based on nothing. The only time Baker ever really spoke out about the management of this team was after they publicly told him and everyone else he would be the starting QB only to find out they were in pursuit of watson. Then it wasn't like he trashed them. He simply said they had not been honest with him and wanted to be traded. Even the QB we traded for did that exact same thing.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
peen, I agree w/you about catching the football. I do want to add that route running is huge in the NFL. Also, you need smart guys that can make sight adjustments and hot reads, especially if you have a qb who can do the same.

I understand that. On timing routes you need to be where the QB expects. You have to get open. If you can't get open the QB isn't or shouldn't throw you the ball.

You can teach that at the pro level. If you are trying to teach a guy to catch a ball, you are wasting your time. If he keeps dropping the ball, that is the same as knocking it to the ground IMO...send him to the DB room and see if they can do something with the guy.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The fact is that the Browns extended his contract. They saw proof positive that a healthy Baker was a good enough to help lead this team to the playoffs. So did the rest of us for anyone willing to admit it and not downplay his contribution to that. But it's the job of every FO to try and improve players at every position. People have told you over and over again that watson is the better QB on the field. So I have no idea WTH you're trying to argue here. Unless it's just to further trash Baker.... Hmmmm.....

Not quite.

I understand your point, but they exercised his 5th year option.

I guess you can say that is extending, but it really isn't. It's just exercising an option that was already written in to the current contract. Extending would be adding additional years that aren't in the current deal.

Again, maybe I am picking nits as I do understand your point. I also agree with your point that the team saw a opportunity to improve the position, and they did.


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Just to add to this with something we all know or should, but are not focused on and speaking about currently. Regardless of contract specifics, BM is history. And even as we contend with the DW issues, Berry or someone must keep an eye on that position for replacement/upgrade post- DW. The need for this trade is a relief. Wish him well and a solid recovery. But fans need to fairly acknowledge that the FO has responsibility to always be looking for upgrades to consider for very position. Wouldn't want their job with the likes of us to deal with. <G>
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Bard, I have been looking at possible options at qb for awhile now because as I stated quite some time ago, I didn't think Baker would play another snap w/us. The pickings are slim. I haven't went crazy w/my research because we really don't know if Watson will be suspended or not. If Watson avoids suspension or get something like 2, 4, or 6 games....I would say we stand pat. Anything more than that and the Browns will need to get another qb because I don't think they would want to see Dobbs playing if JB is injured.

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Mr. Haslam, you are losing the game of money ball. Time to ditch that s….


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The fact is that the Browns extended his contract. They saw proof positive that a healthy Baker was a good enough to help lead this team to the playoffs. So did the rest of us for anyone willing to admit it and not downplay his contribution to that. But it's the job of every FO to try and improve players at every position. People have told you over and over again that watson is the better QB on the field. So I have no idea WTH you're trying to argue here. Unless it's just to further trash Baker.... Hmmmm.....

Not quite.

I understand your point, but they exercised his 5th year option.

I guess you can say that is extending, but it really isn't. It's just exercising an option that was already written in to the current contract. Extending would be adding additional years that aren't in the current deal.

I do think you are nitpicking and I doubt we will agree on this. Not that I really expect us to or don't understand what you're saying.

But let's look at it. Yes, the team has the 5th year option. But by the very fact they exercised that option they extended his time here from four years to five. I would also add that there was no existing contract for that fifth year unless the Browns picked that option up. So that fifth year contract only came effective when the Browns chose to extend his time here for a fifth year.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The fact is that the Browns extended his contract. They saw proof positive that a healthy Baker was a good enough to help lead this team to the playoffs. So did the rest of us for anyone willing to admit it and not downplay his contribution to that. But it's the job of every FO to try and improve players at every position. People have told you over and over again that watson is the better QB on the field. So I have no idea WTH you're trying to argue here. Unless it's just to further trash Baker.... Hmmmm.....

Not quite.

I understand your point, but they exercised his 5th year option.

I guess you can say that is extending, but it really isn't. It's just exercising an option that was already written in to the current contract. Extending would be adding additional years that aren't in the current deal.

I do think you are nitpicking and I doubt we will agree on this. Not that I really expect us to or don't understand what you're saying.

But let's look at it. Yes, the team has the 5th year option. But by the very fact they exercised that option they extended his time here from four years to five. I would also add that there was no existing contract for that fifth year unless the Browns picked that option up. So that fifth year contract only came effective when the Browns chose to extend his time here for a fifth year.

Technically the 5th year option is built into the contract, so it isn't a contract extension, it is exercising the current contract.

But I know how much you hate to nit pick.

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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
The fact is that the Browns extended his contract. They saw proof positive that a healthy Baker was a good enough to help lead this team to the playoffs. So did the rest of us for anyone willing to admit it and not downplay his contribution to that. But it's the job of every FO to try and improve players at every position. People have told you over and over again that watson is the better QB on the field. So I have no idea WTH you're trying to argue here. Unless it's just to further trash Baker.... Hmmmm.....

Not quite.

I understand your point, but they exercised his 5th year option.

I guess you can say that is extending, but it really isn't. It's just exercising an option that was already written in to the current contract. Extending would be adding additional years that aren't in the current deal.

I do think you are nitpicking and I doubt we will agree on this. Not that I really expect us to or don't understand what you're saying.

But let's look at it. Yes, the team has the 5th year option. But by the very fact they exercised that option they extended his time here from four years to five. I would also add that there was no existing contract for that fifth year unless the Browns picked that option up. So that fifth year contract only came effective when the Browns chose to extend his time here for a fifth year.

Technically the 5th year option is built into the contract, so it isn't a contract extension, it is exercising the current contract.

But I know how much you hate to nit pick.

So...they CHOSE to exercise a contract option to keep Baker for another year...they could have CHOSEN to do nothing. Choice...it's a thing.

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The Browns "chose" to trade Baker for a ham sandwich while paying him $10.5 million to get the hell out of town.

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Yet there is no fifth year or fifth year contract if a team doesn't exercise it. By definition a team extends a players contract to five years by picking up the fifth year option. Without it you have a four year contract. The team and only the team has the power to make it a five year contract.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The Browns "chose" to trade Baker for a ham sandwich while paying him $10.5 million to get the hell out of town.

They chose to take whatever they could get to undo the disaster they had created and they knew it the day they went after watson. They knew it and the entire NFL knew it.


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Originally Posted by WSU Willie
So...they CHOSE to exercise a contract option to keep Baker for another year...they could have CHOSEN to do nothing. Choice...it's a thing.

That's exactly what they did. They chose to extend that contract for the fifth year.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The Browns "chose" to trade Baker for a ham sandwich while paying him $10.5 million to get the hell out of town.

They chose to take whatever they could get to undo the disaster they had created and they knew it the day they went after watson. They knew it and the entire NFL knew it.

Who the hell brought Baker into this thread??? ... Oh I remember now.

Wentz was traded for two third round picks. Baker is as good as Wentz - better in my opinion and many others, but for the point of this discussion we will say they are comparable. The fact one team received two 3rd round picks and the other got a conditional 4th ... says everything you need to know about who was operating from a position of leverage and who screwed the pooch. Jimmy G is still out there - some have opined he is better than Baker (I disagree) ... another possible factor.

None of that matters - Baker will be playing soon. He's going to be on a really bad team who Vegas believes will win less than 6 games. No doubt there will be plenty to pile on Baker about during the season. No doubt who will start that convo either.... probably while claiming it was someone else.


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lets hope these guys are getting more consistent conditioning. between the physical injuries and COVID, our entire roster was injured for too long of a stretch last season. our defense really picked it up mid season, even with all the injuries. it'd be nice if the injuries god's can bless this team this season.


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And yet the 5th year is included in the rookie contract.

The team has to choose one way or the other. So they can take a 5 year contract and shorten it to 4.

Or you could stop always picking nits daily.

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