Yeah, that's a good point. I guess I was just thinking that if Taylor was killed while a felony was being committed, it would be murder anyway, even without the intent to kill.
I can't say I'm not pretty interested in seeing what all comes up. I truly hope it's not anything that would "shame" him.
Quote: Yeah, that's a good point. I guess I was just thinking that if Taylor was killed while a felony was being committed, it would be murder anyway, even without the intent to kill.
Yeah, I wonder then what the deal is with the home invasion, is that not a felony? Im not familiar with the crimes and there punishments.
Quote: I have a big problem with things being dismissed, minimized or explained away simply because of the 'thug' label.
And, honestly, I don't think it will be a problem in this thread, because no one will touch that at this juncture...but what bothers me is what I consider to be a very troubling double-standard.
I have very, very little knowledge about Taylor's 2005 crimes. I don't pretend to know much. But from what I've read, he brandished a firearm in a dispute over stolen property...utter stupidity and a big mistake...and it earned him the 'thug' label...however, I can't count how many times on this board (and in my real life) people have bragged about their guns, and expressed how they would dispose of those who broke into their homes...there is almost a sense of this repressed violence...like, 'if I could stay inbounds of the law, I'd take pleasure in blowing someone away'...I'm not here to make judgements or criticize any line of thinking...I'm just saying that anytime a black athlete or musician or entertainer gets into trouble on anything gun related, he's a 'thug'...however, when a white person carries out a similar crime...you never hear the word 'thug'. Is there simply another adjective for the white version ('hillybilly', 'redneck')? Or is there a bias? Or an inability to see our own faults and tendencies? I do not know...
As for Taylor...perhaps he was a victim, or perhaps the mistakes of his past came back to haunt him one last time...doesn't really matter, as a 24-year old died.
I'm not going to relate this directly to Taylor. I don't know anything about his 2005 history besides what's written here, and it seems unlikely that we will ever know exactly why what happened the other day did. It is a very horribly story though that's for sure, so I'll leave it at that.
I do take issue with what you've written above though. I have also seen at times on this board (and others) where people have talked about their guns and how they would 'dispose' of people who broke into their homes. There is a huge difference between defending your home and the people and property in it, and brandishing a firearm in a dispute outside of your home over stolen property. The police can be involved in something like that. In the defense of your own home, the police just cannot be there. Anybody who thinks that a police force's job is to protect everybody, everywhere, at all times, is just being grossly unrealistic.
If somebody were to break into my home, believe me, the last thing I would want to do is pull the trigger. However, if that person was putting myself, my family, my girlfriend, etc at risk, then so be it. Never have I ever heard or read someone say they would take pleasure in killing somebody just because they would be in the confines of the law in doing so. I'm sure there are exceptions, unfortunately.
The whole black vs white stereotype thing... it's not something I really want to get into. A very basic understanding of statistics suggest that black people are overwhelmingly more likely to, for one example, commit a violent crime with a gun. Whether or not that should make them more prone to stereotyping or whatever is one's personal opinion. My experience shows that most people say 'no' but think 'yes'. Myself, I just stay out of it altogether, because these discussions always turn out bad.
Again, to clarify, none of this has anything to do with Sean Taylor. Like I said before, that story is one of the most awful ones I've ever heard happen to an athlete and his family...
Quote: I have a big problem with things being dismissed, minimized or explained away simply because of the 'thug' label.
Don't be a thug and things wouldn't be dismissed, minimized or explained away.
Quote: And, honestly, I don't think it will be a problem in this thread, because no one will touch that at this juncture...but what bothers me is what I consider to be a very troubling double-standard.
I don't see a double standard.
Quote: I have very, very little knowledge about Taylor's 2005 crimes. I don't pretend to know much. But from what I've read, he brandished a firearm in a dispute over stolen property...utter stupidity and a big mistake...and it earned him the 'thug' label...
As it should have.
Quote: however, I can't count how many times on this board (and in my real life) people have bragged about their guns, and expressed how they would dispose of those who broke into their homes...there is almost a sense of this repressed violence...like, 'if I could stay inbounds of the law, I'd take pleasure in blowing someone away'...I'm not here to make judgements or criticize any line of thinking...
Difference between protecting your home and being a thug and burglarizing one.
Quote: I'm just saying that anytime a black athlete or musician or entertainer gets into trouble on anything gun related, he's a 'thug'...however, when a white person carries out a similar crime...you never hear the word 'thug'. Is there simply another adjective for the white version ('hillybilly', 'redneck')? Or is there a bias? Or an inability to see our own faults and tendencies? I do not know...
Thats an easy one. I pose this question to you, how often is a white athlete or musician or entertainer in trouble on anything gun related? Not very often, probably for every 500 black incedents, you have 1 white one. Probably why YOU correlate thug with black.
Quote: As for Taylor...perhaps he was a victim, or perhaps the mistakes of his past came back to haunt him one last time...doesn't really matter, as a 24-year old died.
Quote: Damon I really dont know where your coming from,
are you saying that NOBODY is bashing the kid? Clay, this was not directed at EVERYONE,, just a few that know who they are... Let it go at that.
That was exactly my point Damon. I mentioned the Bucks because that seems the team of choice on this board, but they could be replaced by any team in America, as all teams have problem children.
Some people choose to rip first. Actually I believe this had everything to do with his prior battle. However we only know the parts that were reported in the media. Nobody knows what really happened in the prior altercation. There is really no story in saying Joe Blow stole property and when confronted commited threatening acts that caused gun play. But, saying Sean Taylor, starting safety and pro bowl player for the Washington Redskins pulled a gun and fired, now that a story.
The bottom line, is a young person died needlessly. And those that choose to bash and bad mouth must have an agenda.
NavyDawg, go ahead and stand by your beliefs,they mean nothing. You only prove to me as to what kind of person you are. If you would have shown some kind of sympathy, as many that stated things very close to what you said did, I wouldn't have ripped you.
Death hits home with Browns Steve King, Staff Writer 11.27.2007
The death of safety Sean Taylor early Tuesday morning has devastated his last two teams, the Washington Redskins and the University of Miami.
His passing also touched the Browns.
Browns tight end Kellen Winslow, quarterback Ken Dorsey and inside linebacker Leon Williams all played with Taylor at Miami. In fact, Winslow, Williams and Taylor were part of the same recruiting class in 2001, when the Hurricanes when the national title, although Williams redshirt that year.
Williams, though, joined the others in 2002, when they returned to the national title game, only to lose to Ohio State.
After their junior seasons, Winslow and Taylor both opted for the 2004 NFL Draft, the Redskins taking Taylor at No. 5 overall and the Browns -- under then head coach Butch Davis, who formerly had the same job with the Hurricanes -- making an on-the-clock trade with the Detroit Lions to move up one spot to take Winslow at No. 6.
In addition, Browns offensive coordinator Rob Chudzinski was in charge of the Hurricanes offense for all three years that Winslow and Taylor played together.
"My thoughts and prayers go out to Sean Taylor's family," Winslow said in a statement released by the Browns. "The University of Miamiis one big family, and we lost a brother today.
"Sean and I had a special bond.We came in to college together, we left for the NFL the same year and were drafted right next to each other.
"Sean's future was taken away from him by a senseless act of violence. I am at a loss for words to describe the pain I feel for Sean and his family right now."
Dorsey, who was two years ahead of Taylor at Miami, added"I am deeply saddened by the loss of my friend and former teammate, Sean Taylor. Sean was an intense competitor and a great teammate at the University of Miami.
"My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and loved ones."
Quote: Why do I have to show any sympathy? I believe he has brought this upon himself.
C'mon dude let it go. Yes you don't have to show any sympathy,that's your right. However posting statements like you believe "he has brought this upon himself" less than 24 hours after he lost his life makes you look like a complete jackass to be honest
Not that anyone cares, but I'll say it anyways. I have zero respect for you after reading your posts over the years.
Not only do I not like you, but I find it hard to believe that anyone does. The Navy is better off since you are retiring. I just hope and pray that anyone you know, that may have had a questionable past dies and you have to hear the crap you spew.
I still can't believe the bickering in this thread. A young man is dead...I'm not even 24...but I have quite a few friends older than that.
It's tragic that someone so young had his life taken away from him. He was maturing, and surely had alot to give to the community.
Instead of bickering about whether he was a thug or not, we should consider his girlfriend and daughter, who will have to go through life without a father. I dont care what kind of life he lead, he was still a person with a family. At the very least that is deserving of respect and good thoughts. Not arguing.
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
Quote: I swear, some of you would rather be right than anything in the world.
I am always right... except when I am wrong, and once in a while I am wrong. My heart goes out to the kids family and friends. It makes NO difference what anybody thought of him before. His mother just lost a son. His son just lost a father. Nothing else matters
I'm not here to bicker with anyone. All I have to say is RIP Sean Taylor. My condolences to those who he was close to.
Bless those who mourn, eternal God, with the comfort of your love that they may face each new day with hope and the certainty that nothing can destroy the good that has been given. May their memories become joyful, their days enriched with friendship, and their lives encircled by your love. Amen.
Quote: I believe he has brought this upon himself.
I can't imagine an intelligent answer, but I must ask...how exactly does one bring someone breaking into their home and murdering them upon themselves?
The man made a great deal of mistakes in his short life. Perhaps one of those mistakes came back to bite him...maybe he was involved in some bad news, maybe it was something that came out of his past...whatever the reason, he didn't bring death upon himself...someone else did.
Quote: Not that anyone cares, but I'll say it anyways. I have zero respect for you after reading your posts over the years.
Not only do I not like you, but I find it hard to believe that anyone does.
I'm heart broken.
Quote: The Navy is better off since you are retiring. I just hope and pray that anyone you know, that may have had a questionable past dies and you have to hear the crap you spew.
1. You call me bad for not showing sympathy, yet wish death to someone I know. 2. I do not surround myself with people of, as you say, "questionable pasts".
I never understood why everyone gets so apologetic and christian like when someone dies. You all know I have never been good in dealing with the deaths of people I don't know, but this kid was a loser.
Say what you want to or about me but you live by the gun you die bye the gun.
The kid had guns, flashed guns, beat people with guns, I mean he got suspeneded for spitting in Michael Pittmans face. So let's not act like he was an angel.
I never understood why everyone gets so apologetic and christian like when someone dies. You all know I have never been good in dealing with the deaths of people I don't know, but this kid was a loser.
Say what you want to or about me but you live by the gun you die bye the gun.
The kid had guns, flashed guns, beat people with guns, I mean he got suspeneded for spitting in Michael Pittmans face. So let's not act like he was an angel.
No your right, he wasn't an angel by any means. His lifestyle prob caught up with him. But he was a human and didn't deserve to die. I really feel bad for his daughter. The birth of mine made me feel terrific and made me change some stuff. From the sounds of the people that knew him ST was strongly impacted by his daughters birth and was a different person. He was having a great season and all of that is cut short by the hand of someone that wanted to take what he worked for (so it seems this early on)
I found it funny how a few articles pointed out the only reason he had a machete b/c he was on probation and couldn't legally have a gun. Why did they feel the need to mention that?
Our honor defend, we will fight to the end, for OHIO! GO BUCKS!
Quote: I still can't believe the bickering in this thread. A young man is dead...I'm not even 24...but I have quite a few friends older than that.
I was biting my tongue, but I really can't anymore... Some of you really need to take a crash course on empathy. A young man is dead, but that really doesn't matter, does it? The fact that he's some "thug" just makes him another person who deserved it. I don't mean to preach, but are you serious?
No one called him perfect, I never will. But am I perfect? Hell no. Are you? Probably not. We all make mistakes, granted his was a far greater mistake then any of us will make, but lets not act like we haven't made a huge mistake once in our lives... Until my time comes, I'll try to live the best life I can, but I can't promise that I'll be some angel, nor can anybody on this board... I would hate for anybody here that passed, god forbid, to be remember for what they did wrong in their lives.
I want the Cleveland Browns to be my pallbearers so they can let me down for the last time.
Quote: Not that anyone cares, but I'll say it anyways. I have zero respect for you....
Quote:
Quote: Why do I have to show any sympathy? I believe he has brought this upon himself.
C'mon dude let it go. Yes you don't have to show any sympathy,that's your right. However posting statements like you believe "he has brought this upon himself" less than 24 hours after he lost his life makes you look like a complete jackass to be honest
Cleveland Browns nearly drafted Sean Taylor in 2004 Posted by Tony Grossi November 27, 2007 15:45PM
AP photoFew people realized how close Sean Taylor was to becoming a Cleveland Brown. Taylor, a Pro Bowl safety for the Washington Redskins, died today, one day after he was shot in his Miami home by an apparent intruder.
During the 2004 draft, the Browns had a trade worked out with the New York Giants to swap places in the first round. The Browns would give up their second-round pick to move up from No. 7 to No. 4.
"It was done specifically to take Sean Taylor," said Todd Stewart.
Stewart was Browns public relations director at the time and was privy to former coach Butch Davis' draft intentions.
The trade was facilitated by Lal Heneghan, then a Browns vice president, while the Giants were on the clock. As Heneghan was finalizing the deal with Ernie Accorsi, then the Giants general manager, Pete Garcia, Davis' right-hand man, was speaking with Taylor's agent, Drew Rosenhaus.
"He was telling Drew that it was important that he got Taylor signed and into training camp on time," Stewart said.
Taylor was an enforcer-type safety at University of Miami who looked for the big hit on most every down. When he didn't make it, he would miss the tackle.
Heneghan phoned the NFL office at draft headquarters and reported the trade. But it wasn't official until the Giants did the same. It didn't happen.
Shortly after Accorsi accepted terms of the deal with the Browns, he received a call from San Diego General Manager A.J. Smith about dealing quarterback Eli Manning to New York. Accorsi would have to select quarterback Philip Rivers with the Giants' No. 4 pick to make the deal work.
Heneghan called back Accorsi and was told their deal was off.
"The Browns were really mad," Accorsi said in the Tom Callahan book, The GM. "I reneged, they said. But there's no such thing as reneging until the computer thing is in. I never really said yes, I just almost said yes."
"It all happened within three or four minutes," Stewart said.
Washington then selected Taylor with the No. 5 pick.
"Soon as Washington took Taylor, there was a lot of silence, like a punch to the gut," Stewart recalled. "Then it quickly shifted to, 'We've got to get (Kellen) Winslow.'"
Winslow was Taylor's college teammate -- and the last great player available from Davis' last recruiting class at Miami.
Detroit was on the clock at No. 6. Davis phoned Lions President Matt Millen and offered him the same deal offered New York -- the Browns' second-round pick to swap places, in this case just one notch.
Millen agreed and Davis selected Winslow. It was a steep price to move up one spot.
"The feeling going in was they would have been thrilled to have either Taylor or Winslow, and there would be real disappointment without one or the other," Stewart said.
Davis worked another deal later to reclaim the second-round pick. He used it on safety Sean Jones.
- Tony Grossi
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Instead of bickering about whether he was a thug or not, we should consider his girlfriend and daughter, who will have to go through life without a father. I dont care what kind of life he lead, he was still a person with a family. At the very least that is deserving of respect and good thoughts. Not arguing.
You are lecturing the wrong person, I never said he was or wasn't a thug. I never said a word about him.
This thread has taken a bad turn. Some on here have no respect for anyone. He may not have been perfect and he had his mistakes but who among us doesn't?
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