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BpG #1974457 09/29/22 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BpG
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
You obviously have the words science and partisan mixed up.


LOL using science as a deflecting word has become status quo for leftist partisans.

TRUST THE SCIENCE!

Is new the "HAVE FAITH IN GOD"

It's garbage. Science isn't finite, it's virtually never concrete, it's always changing and often incorrect. But yeah man, I have it mixed up.

Amen! lol


Paper, scissors, rock... science! "Science" trumps all. Just mention the word and people better shut up and sit on their hands. Game over!


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FATE #1974459 09/29/22 10:32 AM
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Once again, the pollution created in the manufacturing of different types of vehicles including savings on fuel and emissions are measurable. It isn't a theory. Why people have trouble with that concept is beyond recognition.

I do understand that when science is based on theories and conjecture it can often times turn out to be wrong. But none of this in terms of polluting our environment is based on any of that.

It's like you're looking at a measured quart of milk in a measuring cup and claiming it's actually a pint.


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PitDAWG #1974466 09/29/22 11:11 AM
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It's like you're staring at the entire wall of dairy in a Wal-Mart and claiming there is only milk. There is much more to the argument than whether electric cars have lower emissions.

There are many facets to the "electric car" argument. We don't make it partisan, our elected officials do. Take electric cars... Biden, while running for office... "There's not a single solitary scientist that thinks [Bernie's climate plan] can work." (Funny how when "green" helped get him elected, his tune changed.)

Yet 57 renowned scientists endorsed "The Deal" as workable science. Ending fossil fuels in ten years flat in the name of saving the climate. It took me .5 seconds to understand that was the most absurd statement I had ever read in my life... not to mention impossible.

Electric cars are gooood. Yet we're raping the environment for the reward. [Don't worry, this never hits close to home]

"Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft and Tesla have been named as defendants in a lawsuit filed in Washington DC by human rights firm International Rights Advocates on behalf of 14 parents and children from the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). The lawsuit, which is the result of field research conducted by anti-slavery economist Siddharth Kara, accuses the companies of aiding and abetting in the death and serious injury of children who they claim were working in cobalt mines in their supply chain."

But that's okay if it's all for the greater good, right??

Cobalt (crucial ingredient in batteries) is rising to record prices. Demand is exploding. MIT estimates that demand will outpace current capacity to mine by nearly double by 2030. Build more mining machines, rape more earth, right??


NOW... that I sound like a bleeding heart. All of the above are facts. And here is another... All of this chicanery is taking place in during a time when electric cars represent 1% of our cars on the road. We should be able to make the transition in 8 more years, right?


But instead of people having the common sense to look out over a 50 year horizon and make intelligent decisions, we get mud-slinging over "saving the planet". Say anything negative about electric cars and you're a science denier and terrible human being. One side goes to bed at night and frightfully pulls the covers over their heads in fear... and it's sold as being caused by the other side, which gives not one f*%$ about the planet.

As the world turns...


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FATE #1974470 09/29/22 11:25 AM
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So your contention is that "mud slinging" is only coming from one side? Sure, sure. Do you know how crazy people thought it was in Dec. of 1962 when Kennedy said the U.S. would have a man on the moon by the end of the decade? You see, setting an aggressive goal is possibly and most likely the best tool to push things forward and speed them up. I agree with you that it's too aggressive and can't be achieved. But I have no idea when setting aggressive goals became a bad thing.

And I really have no idea how a lawsuit in The Dominican Republic of the Congo changes anything in regards to lessening pollution. Supply and demand are an ever present part of the economy. So I still fail to see your point there. It seems you have shifted the discussion away from the very real facts of the discussion. Electric cars lessen pollution. Maybe you could concentrate on the actual topic?

You seem to ignore how much we are already raping the environment in regards to fossil fuels. Not only do we rape it in obtaining fossil fuels, we rape it when we burn them. You've gone completely off the rails here.


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FATE #1974471 09/29/22 11:25 AM
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It's like you're staring at the entire wall of dairy in a Wal-Mart and claiming there is only milk. There is much more to the argument than whether electric cars have lower emissions.

There are many facets to the "electric car" argument. We don't make it partisan, our elected officials do. Take electric cars... Biden, while running for office... "There's not a single solitary scientist that thinks [Bernie's climate plan] can work." (Funny how when "green" helped get him elected, his tune changed.)

Yet 57 renowned scientists endorsed "The Deal" as workable science. Ending fossil fuels in ten years flat in the name of saving the climate. It took me .5 seconds to understand that was the most absurd statement I had ever read in my life... not to mention impossible.

Electric cars are gooood. Yet we're raping the environment for the reward. [Don't worry, this never hits close to home]

"Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft and Tesla have been named as defendants in a lawsuit filed in Washington DC by human rights firm International Rights Advocates on behalf of 14 parents and children from the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). The lawsuit, which is the result of field research conducted by anti-slavery economist Siddharth Kara, accuses the companies of aiding and abetting in the death and serious injury of children who they claim were working in cobalt mines in their supply chain."

But that's okay if it's all for the greater good, right??

Cobalt (crucial ingredient in batteries) is rising to record prices. Demand is exploding. MIT estimates that demand will outpace current capacity to mine by nearly double by 2030. Build more mining machines, rape more earth, right??


NOW... that I sound like a bleeding heart. All of the above are facts. And here is another... All of this chicanery is taking place in during a time when electric cars represent 1% of our cars on the road. We should be able to make the transition in 8 more years, right?


But instead of people having the common sense to look out over a 50 year horizon and make intelligent decisions, we get mud-slinging over "saving the planet". Say anything negative about electric cars and you're a science denier and terrible human being. One side goes to bed at night and frightfully pulls the covers over their heads in fear... and it's sold as being caused by the other side, which gives not one f*%$ about the planet.

As the world turns...


[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]

Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 09/29/22 11:26 AM.
GMdawg #1974476 09/29/22 11:48 AM
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why are americans so scared of innovation? im trying to convince my wife RIGHT NOW to let me jack my credit up, dip into the savings and go get that Audi RS E-Tron or Porsche Taycan.

if yall are talking about EVs because of the entry point price, i COMPLETELY understand that and support the hesitation.

but if yall dont want to get into EVs cause you're scared of new tech and such....i mean damn thats pathetic. but some of yall who are scared also do 60 mph in the left lane anyway so...


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Swish #1974477 09/29/22 11:58 AM
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Americans used to claim we could create solutions and advance innovation no matter the obstacles. Now they're coming up with excuses why we can't. Meanwhile China is kicking our asses at it yet again....

China's demand for electric vehicles doubles, making it the biggest and fastest growing EV market

A new study shows that 57% of electric vehicles were sold in China.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/china...e-biggest-and-fastest-growing-ev-market/

China led world with 500,000 electric car exports in 2021

Shipments jumped 160% with EU-bound EVs growing fivefold to 230,000

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/E...ith-500-000-electric-car-exports-in-2021

The U.S. is falling further behind China and Europe in electric-vehicle production

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/the...d-china-and-europe-in-ev-production.html

Some nations move forward while many Americans claim we should stick to the past.


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PitDAWG #1974479 09/29/22 12:02 PM
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yep. and this is what i was trying to say in the other thread, but you nailed it because you're in saying we agree far more than disagree.

im so sick and tired of being told what we CANT do as americans.

well damn, what CAN we do then? just sit on our ass and complain? thats all we're capable of as a society now?


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

- Theodore Roosevelt
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FATE #1974481 09/29/22 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by FATE
Yet 57 renowned scientists endorsed "The Deal" as workable science. Ending fossil fuels in ten years flat in the name of saving the climate. It took me .5 seconds to understand that was the most absurd statement I had ever read in my life... not to mention impossible.
.

Regardless of the topic - I'm always shocked that adult people are capable of this degree of self-rationalization.

"57 experts -- who spent their whole lives studying this -- say it is possible, but I knew in 0.5 seconds that they were all wrong...."

Last edited by Lyuokdea; 09/29/22 12:15 PM.

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Lyuokdea #1974482 09/29/22 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lyuokdea
Originally Posted by FATE
Yet 57 renowned scientists endorsed "The Deal" as workable science. Ending fossil fuels in ten years flat in the name of saving the climate. It took me .5 seconds to understand that was the most absurd statement I had ever read in my life... not to mention impossible.
.

Regardless of the topic - I'm always shocked that adult people are capable of this degree of self-rationalization.

"57 experts who spent their whole lives studying this say it is possible, but I knew in 0.5 seconds that they were all wrong...."

Well, that's because they're wrong. Can't end fossil fuels and be at 100% electric cars in 10 years. If you think we can, you're not that smart. 57 "experts" were partisan hacks jumping on board with the impossible, because either... A. They had painted themselves into a corner with previous statements or support given. B. They were okay with supporting "impossible"... for the "greater good". C. (most likely) They had something to gain by supporting such nonsense. Use your head.


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FATE #1974483 09/29/22 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by FATE
Well, that's because they're wrong. Can't end fossil fuels and be at 100% electric cars in 10 years. If you think we can, you're not that smart. 57 "experts" were partisan hacks jumping on board with the impossible, because either... A. They had painted themselves into a corner with previous statements or support given. B. They were okay with supporting "impossible"... for the "greater good". C. (most likely) They had something to gain by supporting such nonsense. Use your head.

Right - that's the type of rationalization I was referring to.


~Lyuokdea
Lyuokdea #1974489 09/29/22 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lyuokdea
Originally Posted by FATE
Well, that's because they're wrong. Can't end fossil fuels and be at 100% electric cars in 10 years. If you think we can, you're not that smart. 57 "experts" were partisan hacks jumping on board with the impossible, because either... A. They had painted themselves into a corner with previous statements or support given. B. They were okay with supporting "impossible"... for the "greater good". C. (most likely) They had something to gain by supporting such nonsense. Use your head.

Right - that's the type of rationalization I was referring to.

Yeah, well, "got me".

ra·tion·al·i·za·tion
/ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)ləˈzāSH(ə)n,ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)līˈzāSH(ə)n/

noun
1.
the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.


Anything outside of "lockstep" is met with faux outrage and marks the end of intelligent conversation. That's why nothing intelligent comes to pass in this country. Me raising any counter-argument is inappropriate.

And, as your statements bear witness, the conversation then shifts far away from the subject and ends as this one does... With me being painted as smug and unintelligent for raising an eyebrow. Have a nice day.


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Swish #1974496 09/29/22 02:26 PM
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Car software just updated while it was sitting in the garage to improve its self-driving capabilities. Pretty cool. Had a recall on it. Also taken care of through software updates, because there aren't a ton of moving parts. Haven't been to a gas station since May.

But, yeah, I should be driving a gas car. EV technology is not currently perfected, so we should just stick with the old ways. I mean, gas car design and infrastructure pretty much piqued with the Model T.

Last edited by dawglover05; 09/29/22 02:26 PM.

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Originally Posted by dawglover05
Car software just updated while it was sitting in the garage to improve its self-driving capabilities. Pretty cool. Had a recall on it. Also taken care of through software updates, because there aren't a ton of moving parts. Haven't been to a gas station since May.

But, yeah, I should be driving a gas car. EV technology is not currently perfected, so we should just stick with the old ways. I mean, gas car design and infrastructure pretty much piqued with the Model T.

My gas powered car can do OTA updates too. I understood there to a change from DOT on wireless updates recently that now allows them.

A plug in car does not work in our situation. I could drag an extension cord down to the street where we have to park, and of course, donate them to the people who walk by looking for things to steal.

They work for some people, not for others. EV is not a one size fits all solution, no matter how often we are told otherwise.

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Originally Posted by dawglover05
Car software just updated while it was sitting in the garage to improve its self-driving capabilities. Pretty cool. Had a recall on it. Also taken care of through software updates, because there aren't a ton of moving parts. Haven't been to a gas station since May.

But, yeah, I should be driving a gas car. EV technology is not currently perfected, so we should just stick with the old ways. I mean, gas car design and infrastructure pretty much piqued with the Model T.

Yeah, well you better be careful, you're bound to download a virus! And when the industry puts expiration dates on software updates, your cute little car will be about as useful as last year's chromebook! You let me know how "plug it in, plug it in" works out for you then!


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If you could take a second to move away from your smugness and unintelligence to let me get a word in... wink laugh

I actually understand your line of thought that things should be questioned. Science should absolutely be questioned. That's how valid conclusions are made to hypotheses. I think the problem comes from both ends, though. Some people may blindly follow conclusions without questioning them, and that's a problem. On the other hand, some people may blindly rail against conclusions without knowing what they're talking about. Those groups are often the loudest in the room.

As far as EV's go, I think there seems to be enough science out there from what Lyuok has discussed and what the EPA has listed which demonstrates that so far it looks to be a step in the right direction. Does that mean it's perfect? No. Does that mean that we shouldn't also explore other alternative energy sources? Of course not. I think we need to keep the gas pedal on improving what will eventually become dire straits, if it isn't already. Some people on this board have said "gas forever!" (direct quote), but that's just the problem. It can't be. Add into that the environmental concerns and sustainability is a problem. We've tried to go the fuel cell route already with hydrogen, but that didn't take and obviously had its own problems. EVs, for better or worse, seem to be obtaining considerable and sustainable momentum into being the alternative, or at least the most viable one currently. Not just here, but the world over. Do we have a lot of concerns with that route? Oh flip yeah, we do. But I think there are a lot of opportunities to improve those, from replacing lithium, to improving infrastructure, to moving energy production down to the consumer level (whereas with gas, we can't just drill out in our own back yards).

I think the fact that they represent a significant step, while also preserving room for improvement should galvanize our efforts as the most innovative country in the world. The problem is we spend too much time making every GD thing political to where it comes down to "This is the only way and everyone must accept it no matter what" vs "We cannot go this route no matter what" that we get to the point where we start treading water. Then others swoop in and leap frog us. That's a point that Swish made, which I agree with. We could 100% innovate and improve much better than China, because we allow improvement through independent, individual thoughts and innovation, or at least we used to. Now, we're too focused on figuring out why we can't do something.


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FrankZ #1974503 09/29/22 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Car software just updated while it was sitting in the garage to improve its self-driving capabilities. Pretty cool. Had a recall on it. Also taken care of through software updates, because there aren't a ton of moving parts. Haven't been to a gas station since May.

But, yeah, I should be driving a gas car. EV technology is not currently perfected, so we should just stick with the old ways. I mean, gas car design and infrastructure pretty much piqued with the Model T.

My gas powered car can do OTA updates too. I understood there to a change from DOT on wireless updates recently that now allows them.

A plug in car does not work in our situation. I could drag an extension cord down to the street where we have to park, and of course, donate them to the people who walk by looking for things to steal.

They work for some people, not for others. EV is not a one size fits all solution, no matter how often we are told otherwise.

Same here. Can't throw a cord out the window at my apartment. Home is four hours away. Drive there often, 520 mile round trip. Feasibility for me would mean occasionally parking at a ChargePoint ten minutes away and getting a ride to my apartment. I haven't run out of gas and thumbed for a ride in about 35 years, so I don't see that happening.

Excited to buy one once the time is right. One thing that has definitely been understated is the crazy rate at which the tech has evolved.


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FrankZ #1974513 09/29/22 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Car software just updated while it was sitting in the garage to improve its self-driving capabilities. Pretty cool. Had a recall on it. Also taken care of through software updates, because there aren't a ton of moving parts. Haven't been to a gas station since May.

But, yeah, I should be driving a gas car. EV technology is not currently perfected, so we should just stick with the old ways. I mean, gas car design and infrastructure pretty much piqued with the Model T.

My gas powered car can do OTA updates too. I understood there to a change from DOT on wireless updates recently that now allows them.

A plug in car does not work in our situation. I could drag an extension cord down to the street where we have to park, and of course, donate them to the people who walk by looking for things to steal.

They work for some people, not for others. EV is not a one size fits all solution, no matter how often we are told otherwise.

It definitely doesn't work for everyone...yet, at least. That's actually the reason we have both cars (gas and electric).

The difference with the OTA updates is that, if you have a gas engine, transmission, etc. there are a lot of other mechanical things that can't be touched OTA, hence you need to take it to your service center. In the case of an EV, the OTA can actually effect the actual performance parts of the car to a much greater extent, as I understand it, and have experienced. We've had legitimate safety recalls take place OTA.

When it comes to the EV companies, like Tesla and whatnot, I think their biggest problem is that they may have the innovative edge, but they don't have the production edge. You can see that with the spare parts and whatnot. If the traditional car companies catch up in innovation, they could really change the game.

Last edited by dawglover05; 09/29/22 03:54 PM.

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Swish #1974515 09/29/22 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Swish
jc

why are americans so scared of innovation? im trying to convince my wife RIGHT NOW to let me jack my credit up, dip into the savings and go get that Audi RS E-Tron or Porsche Taycan.

if yall are talking about EVs because of the entry point price, i COMPLETELY understand that and support the hesitation.

but if yall dont want to get into EVs cause you're scared of new tech and such....i mean damn thats pathetic. but some of yall who are scared also do 60 mph in the left lane anyway so...

Americans in general are not afraid, conservative-minded people are always skeptical of any advancements, and the "do/say as you're ordered" talking points crown are just political drones. The best interest of big oil is what they are protecting, most unknowingly.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 09/29/22 04:00 PM.

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Originally Posted by dawglover05
If you could take a second to move away from your smugness and unintelligence to let me get a word in... wink laugh

I actually understand your line of thought that things should be questioned. Science should absolutely be questioned. That's how valid conclusions are made to hypotheses. I think the problem comes from both ends, though. Some people may blindly follow conclusions without questioning them, and that's a problem. On the other hand, some people may blindly rail against conclusions without knowing what they're talking about. Those groups are often the loudest in the room.

As far as EV's go, I think there seems to be enough science out there from what Lyuok has discussed and what the EPA has listed which demonstrates that so far it looks to be a step in the right direction. Does that mean it's perfect? No. Does that mean that we shouldn't also explore other alternative energy sources? Of course not. I think we need to keep the gas pedal on improving what will eventually become dire straits, if it isn't already. Some people on this board have said "gas forever!" (direct quote), but that's just the problem. It can't be. Add into that the environmental concerns and sustainability is a problem. We've tried to go the fuel cell route already with hydrogen, but that didn't take and obviously had its own problems. EVs, for better or worse, seem to be obtaining considerable and sustainable momentum into being the alternative, or at least the most viable one currently. Not just here, but the world over. Do we have a lot of concerns with that route? Oh flip yeah, we do. But I think there are a lot of opportunities to improve those, from replacing lithium, to improving infrastructure, to moving energy production down to the consumer level (whereas with gas, we can't just drill out in our own back yards).

I think the fact that they represent a significant step, while also preserving room for improvement should galvanize our efforts as the most innovative country in the world. The problem is we spend too much time making every GD thing political to where it comes down to "This is the only way and everyone must accept it no matter what" vs "We cannot go this route no matter what" that we get to the point where we start treading water. Then others swoop in and leap frog us. That's a point that Swish made, which I agree with. We could 100% innovate and improve much better than China, because we allow improvement through independent, individual thoughts and innovation, or at least we used to. Now, we're too focused on figuring out why we can't do something.

QFT

Great post. I agree with it 100%

EVs are the only path to the future. They don't need to reach some far-fetched, short term critical mass to blaze that path. Trying to push for that in the short term definitely has it's own set of problems. And imo, is a little foolish. There is a whole lot of "fleshing out" that needs to take place within the infrastructure and the tech. I'm in favor of moving forward in a sensible manner without demonizing or cancelling other parts of the menu mix.

My whole entry into this conversation is based on the all too common chant of "science!" which usually, conveniently, ignores part of the actual science. Also, when a "plan" calls for impossible benchmarks, I can't help but question the plan. Unfortunately, to most people reading, the assumption would be that I'm against change, innovation, and electric cars. I'm surprised someone hasn't posted something like "so, you think doing nothing at all is a better option?", or a question equally as silly.

The middle of your post paints a perfect, common sense approach to the future. We've accelerated that path, and that's a good thing. Competition among EV companies is also helping make it a win for consumers, at least those in position to participate.

I can't help but think there is some valuable content missing from the conversation if we're all just going to scream "electric" though. The ICE will not be extinct for at least a few decades, and I really don't think there is anything wrong with that timetable. If I were czar, and I were running this like a business, I'd throw the industry a serious curve ball and require that starting in 2025, all new ICE vehicles must be dual-fuel and capable of running on CNG, while also giving all consumers 100% tax credit on installing a fueling station in their garage. We hedge our bet against petroleum while taking an axe to our dependence... with a cleaner, cheaper resource that is abundant on our own turf. We flatten the curve of "electric by necessity" by riding out both resources on the other end. That also helps keep competition as the consumer's best friend along the way.

Next steps: Figure out how to maximize efficiency and minimize dependance on the other 60% of a barrel of oil.

Figure out where all this electric will come from. Your electric car runs on coal, so there is still a very large part of the "issue" that needs to be addressed.

I'm hoping Musk can figure out a way to beam down endless supplies of electricity from outer space. In the meantime, rest assured -- when I see you stranded by the road after a pulse bomb -- I'll pick you up in my gas-guzzling '72 Nova.

Last edited by FATE; 09/29/22 04:42 PM.

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FATE #1974525 09/29/22 04:56 PM
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Great post.

I guess my only question to you is why do you think doing nothing at all is a better option?

laugh


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Because I'm not just going to stand by and watch my all freedoms get taken away.

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GMdawg #1974537 09/29/22 05:32 PM
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What happens when everyone loses power like what's happening in Florida right now?


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Well, I don’t think too many people are driving around in any cars right now, gas or electric. Can’t imagine too many gas stations are faring well either. Other than that, I think it’s a huge opportunity for improvement to infrastructure as well.

Let me ask you, what do you think they should do?


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Originally Posted by superbowldogg
What happens when everyone loses power like what's happening in Florida right now?

How does it matter? All of the stores are closed. At least you can plug your cell phone into your electric car and see if the local Mickey Ds is serving up some kibbles. Smart money in FL has a whole house generator. If and when I buy an electric car, that will probably be the straw that makes this camel invest in one.


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jc

i guess im just oblivious or something, but i never understand why we talk about energy as if it's an "either or" scenario.

isn't having a diversified energy grid a good thing? wouldn't having a diversified grid allow us to be less susceptible to geopolitical crisis, as well as enabling us to tap into different sectors in times of natural disaster for a more efficient response?

i swear this is what the 50's and 60's must have been like, just without social media. damn near half the country talking about why trying to get a rocket into outer space and land on the moon is a waste of time. or worse, acting like they can tell the scientist that somehow, they aren't doing it correctly.

the same kind of dudes who were trashing automobiles when they first dropped. the horse and buggy is tried and true!!

why cant we just do both?


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Swish #1974549 09/29/22 06:53 PM
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Who's saying any of that, bro? I feel like there has been a lot of decent back and forth on this subject once people get past the politics. I can't say I know a single soul that represents the above mindset. Personally, I'm all about the diversified approach.


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Originally Posted by dawglover05
Well, I don’t think too many people are driving around in any cars right now, gas or electric. Can’t imagine too many gas stations are faring well either. Other than that, I think it’s a huge opportunity for improvement to infrastructure as well.

Let me ask you, what do you think they should do?


I think we should be looking at hydrogen, nitrogen gas, oxygen, or upgrading the turbine engine Chrysler had in the mid 60's... It ran on peanut oil, purfune, tequila, and many other fuels that don't put out as much greenhouse gasses. *The goverment made Chrysler stop efforts on the turbine engine when they bailed them out.


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We would all be driving hydrogen cars powered by water if politics and greed would get out of the way of innovation, science, and doing what's best for the planet. As I said, I have no dog in this race but the way we are going right now the 2030 models will probably look like this:


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Why would I buy a car that doesn't meet my needs?


It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Because the sky is falling.


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Give me a gas guzzling V8 all day long! thumbsup


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America used to be the country built on a can do attitude and embracing the innovations of the future.

This thread is the perfect example of a can’t do attitude and fundamental questioning of our ability to embrace change.

Sadness is all I feel. Next time someone mentions MAGA, they should be given this thread to explain.


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Originally Posted by FATE
Who's saying any of that, bro? I feel like there has been a lot of decent back and forth on this subject once people get past the politics. I can't say I know a single soul that represents the above mindset. Personally, I'm all about the diversified approach.

The same kind of people who think we can’t do anything in this country and trash EVs for no other reason than some misplaced loyalty to petrol cars.

Originally Posted by Squires
Why would I buy a car that doesn't meet my needs?

Nobody is telling you too. But the increase in different styles of EVs is making “meet my needs” an irrelevant comment.

I need a pickup truck that can tow - that Rivian has your back
I need a point A to B car for city driving - pick an EV
I need a road trip car - pick an EV
I need a SUV that can carry a large family - pick an EV SUV
I need a ride that I can torch clowns on the highway or at the light: pick an EV

The amount of “reasons” people are coming up with as to why EVs don’t fit their needs is shrinking by the month. The main issue for not getting an EV is price point. And as I’ve said before, I completely understand that. But eventually, not even that will be a reason. The 2nd biggest reason is EV charging points. And again, eventually that won’t be a good reason.

The reality is that a lot of the anti EV crowd don’t even have good excuses. Y’all just hating. Why? Because y’all make excuses as to why you won’t even get a hybrid. I remember people around the country trashing those too.

I wish some of y’all would just be honest and say you’re stuck in your ways and hate change in any aspect of life, never mind technology.


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Remember when all the good ole cowboys said their horses would prove to be more efficient then the motorcar would ever be? Standing there, stuck in the mud watching the world pass them by.


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Originally Posted by SuperBrown
Give me a gas guzzling V8 all day long! thumbsup

We’ll wave at you with both hands as we pass you at light speed in the self driving and recharging EV lane.


“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Thomas Jefferson

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Originally Posted by FATE
Because I'm not just going to stand by and watch “my all” freedoms get taken away.

[Linked Image from thumbs.gfycat.com]

Lol … “my all” …and that truck ain’t licensed boy. Keep it on the farm and you won’t loose “ur all” lol… freedoms son.


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Originally Posted by PerfectSpiral
Originally Posted by FATE
Because I'm not just going to stand by and watch “my all” freedoms get taken away.

[Linked Image from thumbs.gfycat.com]

Lol … “my all” …and that truck ain’t licensed boy. Keep it on the farm and you won’t loose “ur all” lol… freedoms son.

The hell you say. I get popped, I just tell them I'm on the way to pick up a load of hay! That there PBR will sit upright in the glove box if you stuff 'er in there real careful.


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Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Well, I don’t think too many people are driving around in any cars right now, gas or electric. Can’t imagine too many gas stations are faring well either. Other than that, I think it’s a huge opportunity for improvement to infrastructure as well.

Let me ask you, what do you think they should do?


I think we should be looking at hydrogen, nitrogen gas, oxygen, or upgrading the turbine engine Chrysler had in the mid 60's... It ran on peanut oil, purfune, tequila, and many other fuels that don't put out as much greenhouse gasses. *The goverment made Chrysler stop efforts on the turbine engine when they bailed them out.

Sorry, you said that earlier and I forgot. So, the fuel cell is hydrogen powered, but it obviously didn't take, compared to EVs. Here is an article as to why:

https://theconversation.com/hydroge...e-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

On top of that, like anything else, we still have to figure out a way to source our hydrogen, and store it. With it being the smallest of the elements, as I understand it, storage becomes an issue - along with volatility. You mentioned fires with EVs - which has a 0.3% chance compared to gas cars 1.05% chance - hydrogen - as we all know from a major historical event doesn't exactly alleviate qualms when it comes to flammability.

I honestly don't know much about the nitrogen gas source. Nitrogen has abundance in our atmosphere, obviously, but it still needs to be separated and captured as well. Anything you have on this front that might be a good read, I'd be interested.

Oxygen, I don't understand at all. Oxygen is what you add to something when you burn it. That's why we have the concern with the CO2 in our atmosphere - because we're taking a bunch of carbon based products out of the ground, adding oxygen to it, and sending it up into the air. Oxygen is also added to the hydrogen fuel source in a fuel cell (making water). So, I don't get how you can utilize oxygen as a fuel basis in and of itself. Not saying it can't be done, but I just don't see it myself.

As far as the turbine engine goes, I don't know much, but I imagine, again we have the same fuel sourcing issue, let alone the costs of the fuel. I read about it on Wikipedia and saw that a variant of it was used on the Abrams, which is kind of cool.

None of this is to say that any of those can't be a viable alternative. Perhaps they could be. If there can be a legitimate, scientific and financial comparison of them all, then I think markets should be set up for any of those alternatives. As it stands right now, EVs are getting a lot of the momentum, because there is a known alternative infrastructure already in place to fuel those vehicles, which can - and should - be improved upon. Overall, I think the scientific margin for EVs to improve is pretty wide. I'm not a scientist, but it seems that transferring the sun's energy (from whatever source, wind, natural resources, etc.) into electricity is one of the easier and more sustainable known forms of energy transfer and storage.

Like FATE and I were discussing, whatever means of future advancement that makes sense - and can move us away from unsustainable oil and fossil fuel consumption - should be explored. I think what I don't get - much like Swish - is the EV naysayers that seem to arbitrarily not want EV to be a viable alternative, despite the fact it's already blazing in that direction and there is a TON of room for improvement across the platform and its infrastructural fuel sourcing.

We have pretty much been the cutting edge country for cool stuff - especially when it comes to transportation - for over a century now. Whatever the best alternative is, we need to make sure we take and keep the lead on it.


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Originally Posted by WooferDawg
America used to be the country built on a can do attitude and embracing the innovations of the future.

This thread is the perfect example of a can’t do attitude and fundamental questioning of our ability to embrace change.

Sadness is all I feel. Next time someone mentions MAGA, they should be given this thread to explain.

Elon said something mean about Trump, so now a bunch of people with their "gas guzzling V8s" and wind blowing flags attached have to spend half their paychecks in gas to ride around town to pwn Musk now.


Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown

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