DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum DA may be tendered; Lewis up in the air (articles)

I see absolutely no reason to rush to judgement. Let nature run it's course. Although nice to have a first and third rounder if someone where to pony up. That is not the prioity. I would rather have depth at the QB position for another year. Even the cost in this case at under $5 mil for a 1st and 2nd string QB is not the issue. We have cap space. We can get defensive help from FA. Athough we have no first rounder I really do not care. If we have the 08 season to judge between Quinn and Anderson we should get it right plus we would have the needed depth.

QB's go down on a regular basis. Is Dorsey a real option? Would you want to go into the 08 season with Quinn and Dorsey? Not me. We hold the trump cards for once in a long time. We should hold them till the answers are clear cut. I have faith in Quinn. However, you do not discard talent at the QB position when it is sooo difficult to find. Anderson maybe the real deal. Have patience we may be instore for a real good ride.

Fact of the matter is at this point, Dunn isn't in any hurry to talk contract. I doubt he would at this point. There really is no percentage in doing so.

He is looking at a franchise tag from the Browns or taking his client to the open market where there seems to be several willing suitors.

From the Browns perspective, it doesn't make any sense to talk contract now either. The market is going to set DA's rate.

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Fact of the matter is at this point, Dunn isn't in any hurry to talk contract. I doubt he would at this point. There really is no percentage in doing so

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Then Dunn best be prayin' to the dear lord every night Anderson don't get hurt BAD...Don't think for a minute that those lil' "Texts" Savage referred to are love fests...Dunn's sayin' "Are ya' ready yet?"...

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He is looking at a franchise tag from the Browns

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Good luck...There's TWO QB's in the NFL worth TWO First Round Pick Compensation...And u should know who they are...I've seen u say a 1 and a 3 isn't enuff for Anderson...The dude is NOT EVEN IN THE SAME CYCLONE AS THOSE TWO...Get a grip...

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taking his client to the open market where there seems to be several willing suitors. From the Browns perspective, it doesn't make any sense to talk contract now either. The market is going to set DA's rate.

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Don't think for a minute that Savage and Dunn don't know what that market rate will be...Savage could try and throw something at em and it would be thrown in the trash...IT HAS TO BE...You HAVE to go look...It's the wisest thing to do on Dunn's part...And I'd bet ya' anything he finds the market is NOWHERE NEAR WHAT HE THINKS...He's got Romo bucks in mind...NOT GONNA HAPPEN...Watch...The dude has NEGATIVE mobility...

IF the Franchise Tag comes into play...That tells me Savage wants Anderson long term...And that's DANGEROUS....There isn't a team in the NFL that's gonna give TWO First Rounders for em'...He's not those 2 QB's that ARE worth it...Dunn would want Romo bucks and we won't agree which means Anderson SIGNS the 1 year Franchise tender and gets 12+M in 2008 and becomes a FA in 2009...He says FU and he's gone...We take a SERIOUS CAP HIT and get screwed...NOPE...

Figure of speech my man.........and possibly PS had a little tongue in cheek about the text message???

Peen write this down I actually agree to most of what you have said.

The thing that we all miss I think is where do the Browns feel they are in terms of talent, and what would adding picks do to the overall performance of the team. along with where do they think BQ is in terms of his developement, and do they think BQ is the better option? These are all questions that must be asked, and hey we as much as we would like to know don't. We are left to guess, along with the rest of the football world outside Berea.

I think BQ is the better option, I really do honestly believe that. I am not in any way knocking the play of DA he has been nothing short of great to be sure. Before he leaves assuming he does leave he will have set at least one and quite possibly 2 new team records for TD's and yardage. That spaeks volumes for the quality of his play, after all were talking the storied history of the Browns.

I think as time goes by, which is what I truly believe PS is saying the answers to the direction the Browns will take will become clearer and clearer, the key is time. I honest to God believe that the Browns best option is to resign DA before the close of the season. We have quite a bit of unused cap space this season and instead of stretching out the bonus money, and signing money we could fold it into a new deal for this season and eat up available cap space and save that space later on. It would be a sound business move IMHO. Then as you pointed out Peen we would be sitting in the Drivers seat no matter what we decide.

I also agree teams that are in need of a starter quality QB, who want a proven starting quality QB a 1st and 3rd is really not that steep a price to pay. I think that some of the teams that will pick in the top 10 will most likely be more reluctant to part with a high pick. The reason being they are likely more then a quality starting QB away from being a good team. That said they are likely looking further down the road then just next season. Something that has been left out of this whole equation though is we could trade DA or BQ for that matter for established players, who knows?

I want to point out a few things here though. BQ's value to the Browns is greater now then it was when he was drafted, and it should be for the entire league as well. He has the all important 1st year nearly under his belt, and no matter what it is a asset to any QB to sit and learn their 1st year. Again I think BQ is the better option, but if it ever came to the Browns moving him we would more then get our return on investment IMHO.

I think like I said the focus of all these posts should shift to 2 things or 2 questions.

#1 Are the Browns better with or without DA, assuming that DA would be a backup? You also must consider the likelyhood that we will need to have a backup of the quality DA presents. Is it likely we would require his services given the quality of the line. Let me put it this way, I don't see anyway in hell that the Browns carry more then 2 QB's next season. We simply don't need to given the quality of the O line. All things need to be considered IMHO..

#2 What could we get from a trade and how would that impact the team ? You have got to identify your areas of greatest need, go thru the FA signing period, and see how well you can do signing players that will have an impact towards meeting those needs, then see where that takes you.

The long and the short of it is this, we have gottin way way ahead of ourselves ( I include myself) in the DA debate IMHO. There are way to many questions that remain unanswered at this point. Example, I thought that we would need to nearly replace the entire D line, but in recent weeks this unit has begun to turn the corner. Will they continue to improve, and is the improvement that we have seen for real?? Thats a big question that can not be answered now. I can see us adding a D linemen and a ILB through FA, and going with what we got. Will that allow us the luxury of retaining the services of DA? Perhaps it will ?? Do we continue with JL, or do we look to go down another avenue for the future ?. I think we keep JL, I would hate like hell to bring in a rook RB and then start a rook QB all in one season, but thats me. These are all questions that remain un answered at this juncture. We could suffer an injury that decides the whole thing for us to the point where we are left with few options.

At the end of the day I truly trust PS and RAC to make a sound well thought out decision, these guys are good at football decisions. They understand and look at all options then make decisions based on what is best for the team. At the end of the day I can support whatever they decide.

After thinking about it we will most likely move on from DA and go with BQ, take the draft picks or players whichever it turns out to be and go from there. But I could be totally and completely wrong, becuase things change and I think PS knows that, and we should to if you really think about it.

JMHO

I think you are off base on the number of qbs to keep on a roster.

Three is the number. Anything less is foolish, I don't care how good the line is. A quality line lessens the odds a qb gets hurt, but it nowhere near eliminates it. You can look at the history of the league and qbs who have been banged up with great lines in front of them.

You don't ever want to get into a situation where you only have 1 qb. Never.

And a factor that isn't discussed much is the value Dorsey has brought to the team. I don't want to hear about the guy totally sucks and can't play the position. He can......he also brings a coach's mentality in a players package....I see him talking with DA nearly every time the team comes off the field. But not even him....3 qbs is the minimum. The insurance they bring is far more than keeping a 7th lb or 7th db.

The most important part to a football team shouldn't be maintained with a bare bones crew.


As far as the rest of the post, you make sound points even if I don't agree, and just shows there really isn't a definitive answer.

I think your wrong about the need to carry 3 QB's, not all teams do and like it or not you can always find a player of equal value to, or near equal to your third string QB at the unemployment office. For instance I'm not knocking Dorsey but hell man I would hate like hell to ever have to actually play the guy. While I would agree he is a very smart QB he lacks the phisical skill needed to be a viable starter at the NFL level. The real question is can you find a player at the unemployment office that can play at or near the level of Dorsey, I think, no I know you can. Vinny has a job now and there always seems to be a vet around that is out of work should it come to that. Roster spots are hard to come by, and while it is an absolute must carry situation for teams who's QB's are beatin half to death on a regular bases, that is not the case for the Browns anymore. It is MHO that we could and would do just fine carrying only 2, but there are teams that do both, even teams with great lines sometimes carry 3. I think however that has more to do with the quality of the third QB then it actually has to do with the need to carry the 3rd guy.

If for instance we had 1 really good starting QB and 2 guys that are pretty equal in terms of quality, or a guy that is need of developement that I thought might help the team down the road I would be inclined to keep him and sacrifice the roster spot. We are in no such situation, and I undertsand the value of having Dorsey at this point, but I think he will be gone come next season and we will carry just 2. Could be wrong though like I said teams do both and BQ will need the added luxury of a Dorsey for sure should he become the starter. But perhaps Dorsey would end up signing as a coach which is really what he is doing now anyway. Or perhaps we just leave the coaching to the QB coach and let it go like that.

Here are some teams that do not carry a 3rd QB.
Colts, Packers

Here are some that do
Pats, Steelers

For sure there will be quite a bit of debate about this issue come next pre season.. Again were ahead of ourselves..

JMHO

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Good luck...There's TWO QB's in the NFL worth TWO First Round Pick Compensation...And u should know who they are...I've seen u say a 1 and a 3 isn't enuff for Anderson...The dude is NOT EVEN IN THE SAME CYCLONE AS THOSE TWO...Get a grip...

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Did I miss something.. I don't remember anyone, including Peen saying that DA was worth two 1sts.... What he did say was that a 1st and 3rd aren't enough...

But there's lots of things better than a 1st and 3rd without going all the way to two 1st rounders..

Like ,,,,Oh,,,,, Let's see.. A 1st and a 2nd or a 1st and a 3r and a 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th...

It doesn't have to be just two 1sts.. and it doesn't have to be in one year either...

Someone could give us a 1st and 3rd this year and a 2nd next year.. heck it can even be tied to DA's performance... for instance,, we get a 1st and 3rd this year.. and a conditional 2nd next if DA meets certain requitrements..

Point is, its not all black and white... THere are ways to increase the value without getting two 1st rounders...

By the way, I think that Peen is mistaken when he says franchise tag... I don't think that's what he means....

If we franchise DA,, then yes, if someone wants him, they gotta give up two 1st round picks and you are correct, he's probably viewed as not being worth that.,

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I don't remember anyone, including Peen saying that DA was worth two 1sts.... What he did say was that a 1st and 3rd aren't enough...

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Well gee...The Tag and the 2 ones are next in line...

Or would u rather get into the same BS scenarios u guys throw around when wanting to trade up in the draft...U know...A 2nd and 4th and a 7th conditional pick and maybe next years 5th...Oh and lets make the next year 5th conditional also...

Interpret it the way u want Shot...I KNOW what he meant...

Hey now when it comes to trading up , " Davis " was the Man ..

Let's try looking at this another way.......And ,like some others, we ARE getting ahead of ourselves.

Let's look at it through what we all think we may need next yr.

First and most obvious, we need some D-Line help. How much? One or two starters? For simplicities sake we will say just one for now.

Next, another LB, preferably an ILB, but I wouldn't be upset with another QUALITY OLB to go opposite Wimbley either, but again, we'll keep it simple and say one LB.

Another WR to go opposite Edwards. JJ is damn good, don't get me wrong, I LOVE how he plays and what he has brought to this team (and recieving corp) as far as work ethic and demeanor. But with his age and his skill set, he is more suited to the 3rd reciever. One more player.

Next, and I know this will be debated, but I strongly feel we need that Game changing RB. While Lewis has played well this yr., he is getting up ther in age for a starting RB in the NFL. I would be cuirious to see his ave. Carries per season compared to some of the other RB's that have been in the league as long as Jamal. I bet it's up there, seeing as he WAS Baltimores offense for several yrs. I am, by NO MEANS, saying do not resign him. But I strongly feel we need to bring in someone to get the bulk of the carries and let Jamal go into more of a Bettis role for his last couple of yrs. That's another player.

Finally, I we shouldn't forget about the O-line just because we are set for know. As alot of you have told me, sometimes it takes a yr. or two to develop qualtiy O-linemen. I know we hope to get Bently back, but that is not a sure thing. I have got to agree with those of you who last yr. said that you should invest at least one day one pick on O-line every yr. This yr. we have been lucky as far as injuries, and were fortunate enough to have Tucker be able to step right in for McKinney. But one more for depth, wouldn't upset me at all. That's another.

That's a total of 5 players, at MINIMUM, that we could sorely use to put us in the upper echelon of NFL teams. Let's say Savage gets us a LB and a RB in FA'gency. That leaves us three more to get through the draft. Can we do that with our second and third rounders and day two picks? Sure we can,........but I would feel a WHOLE LOT BETTER if we had 4 (?) day one picks to pair with those 2 FA'gents.

I am sure there is something I am missing here, but I just thought I would try looking at this a different way.

Feel free to bash or expand.

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Feel free to bash or expand

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Let's go Realistically here...

Haynesworth/Kelly (Rids us of Roye) DE
Karlos Dansby (Knocks Davis to Depth) ILB

Right there improves your Pass Rush because we've got the Corners...And we've got the OLB's...That right there STOPS the run forcing to throw...One dimensional contributes to it...Allows us to open the Scheme even more cause I'm convinced it's not anywheres near what Crennel wants it to be for numerous reasons...Youth out wide and a lack of anything up front...

And add Mikey Turner to the picture...


With the offense we field and the OL we have coming back...I am completely comfy with Quinn at the helm...Send Anderson packin' for that 1 and 3...And keep attacking the defense and WR day one with 4 picks...

PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!

Okay well, when it happens then you can be the first to say 'I told you so'. In the mean time, I won't hold my breath.

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Well gee...The Tag and the 2 ones are next in line...

Or would u rather get into the same BS scenarios u guys throw around when wanting to trade up in the draft

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First off, did you read my entire post..if you did, maybe you need to reread it...

Had you read the whole post, you would have known that I explained there are other things between a 1st and a 3rd and two firsts.. So NOOOOOOOO,,, the two 1st rounders are NOT next line..

Ask yourself this,, is a 1st and 2nd better than a 1st and 3rd? Of course it is.. Is not a 1st and 2nd the NEXT best thing to two 1sts? Ah Ha,,, something better than a 1st and 3rd but not as good as two firsts..... Do you still think that two firsts are next in line?

Had you read my post entirely, you wouldn't have made a comment like the first one above.

As for the TAG comment,,, another indicator that you didn't read my entire post... had you done so you would have seen where I was in agreement with you in that DA probably isn't viewed as a guy worth franchising (at least not by those that make these decisions, armchair guys like us might like to think so however ).... and that I think that Peen misused the term "TAG" in his post....

But NOOOOOOOOOO,,,, You didn't catch that did ya!

As for the second comment above.... did I bring up the DRAFT day trades at all....NOOOOOOOO I didn't did I! I didn't because the comparison has no bearing on the subject... I wasn't commenting about Draft Day trades to move up or down was I? NOOOOO, I wasn't!


If your not going to take the time to read a post to get a true picture of what the poster is going to say,, do me a favor and don't comment on mine....it makes you look like all your trying to do is make fun or bash someone.. And that's not what your about....at least I don't think you are that kinda guy.

But we'll know pretty quick if you don't read all the way down to that last comment and decide again to just attack me based solely on the first couple of lines of this post.... This could be fun to watch....

No bashing here, what you said makes pretty good sense to me.

The thing is though how do the Browns FO and coaching staff see it. For sure they will do there player evaulations at the end of the season and from there they will formulate a plan to bring in the needed talent, the scope of which we have no real way of knowing. For instance has Travis Wilson begun to grasp the offense, and can he be a #2 guy? Much like last season when we let BR get away to clear the way for BP to take his spot as a starter. For sure the Browns need another WR if for no other reason then depth. Put, simply we are pretty thin in this area IMHO.

It really is crap shoot at this time to try and figure out what the Browns will identify as the 1st priority come the off season. To me if I had to make a move right now today to upgrade the defense I would go after a stud ILB. We lack up the middle and while AD is a nice player I wouldn't ever confuse him with great, and thats what we sorely lack at this juncture IMHO.

The line for whatever reason is beginning to play at what I would call a very exceptable level. So will we need to add another piece to the puzzle, yes I would say so, but perhaps the Browns feel comfortable with the kid Leonard they signed. Or perhaps one of the guys they drafted last year in the late rounds is showing signs of real progress, much like the rest of the Linemen we have. There are so many things we do know, and just as many we don't thats the point.

When you start talking about trading signing, draft picks and the like you really have to get your crystal ball out, because of all the things that go on outside of what you actually see on the field.

Point is it is nearly impossible for those that aren't in the loop in Berea to actually know what the teams plans are. And hell I would venture at this juncture they really don't know which direction they will go in yet either.

One thing I do know though we will all continue to debate and guess until something actually happens..

JMHO

I might not say that, but wouldn't rule it out.


In someways, spreading the hit over 2 years is a better deal for the team that decides to pull the trigger.

I don't know what I might want for DA...1st and 3rd , a 2nd the following year.

1st and a solid player.

I guess there are several options.



1st and 3rd doesn't cut it unless they are top 11 picks in each round. Even then I would feel slightly ripped.


Some team with the 20th pick....I hope we sign DA and tell the other team to pound rocks.


I don't care about the friggen picks. We have been caring about that too long. We need to start caring about what we have.

General Reply and i dont mean General Daman either lol :P

There are always certain stats i love to look at when it comes to really seeing what a player is doing and when.

Anderson has thrown 9tds and 2 ints in the 2nd half of games. He also has a 5/1 td/int ratio in the 4th quarter and a completion % of 100% in overtime games. This should tell everyone that the kid has that clutch mentality that few quarterbacks have.

This is something general managers put high value on when evaluating a player.

Also is DA faltering as teams acquire more game tape on him? No
Infact in the last 6 games he is completing 64% of his passes with an 11/3 td/int ratio with an average quarterback rating of 102

unless we get the right offer folks, DA will be our starting QB next year with Quinn getting another year to develop. If DA continues to light it up and he has a good chance to make the probowl right now, could we see one of those Hershel Walker, Ricky Williams type trades?

Like i said before i dont really see the RFA ever really having an effect. Someone desperate to keep their job and desperate for a quarterback may take a huge shot in the dark especially when it comes to filling the most coveted position in football in the era where there are few good quarterbacks.

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I don't know what I might want for DA...1st and 3rd , a 2nd the following year.

1st and a solid player.

I guess there are several options.

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Yup, agreed,, I don't know what I want either... well, yes I do.. I don't want to trade him.. not at all.. I'd rather sign him long term... That way we have the most important position on the team locked up with DA and Quinn for quite a while..

I think who starts is irrelevant because at some point, someone is going to give up something of value for one of those guys.... Like I said, sign DA to a long term deal and we really can't lose.. in the long run, we come out a winner.

As someone said,, might have been DnD, not sure, there are some options out there to address the Dline and other defensive holes in FA... I have always had faith in Savage, but more so now than ever before.. He'll get us some guys to do the job..

Hell, the ones we have now are suddenly starting to look a lot better..

I wonder what our Defensive rank would be if we'd started out the season like we are playing now.... Hmmmm,,,,,

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General Reply and i dont mean General Daman either lol :P

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Stand at attention when you address me son (now is when we need an instant graemlin of a soldier saluting an officer)

WOW Mour,, that's what I'm talking about with Anderson being worth a hell of a lot more than just what the overall YTD stats say... He's actually improved.. But people that want us to give him away wouldn't look at it that way because it doesn't support thier position..

Makes me ill to think that he might be gone...

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Yes it is, but you can negotiate for less.

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What?

Are you saying that there isn't anything that would fall between Two 1st round picks and a 1st and 3rd pick?

Cause if that's what your saying, then what do you call a 1st and 2nd? Isn't that below two 1sts and above a 1st and 3rd? I would have thought so.

And why would we want to bargin for less? I'm confused by your comment,, I don't think I get what you are saying.. can you explain it to me please?

I will not disagree with the idea that the vast majority of teams carry 3 QB's, no debating that. But most of the teams don't even have a good starter, and they aren't nearly as good as the Browns in their protections. That said the Browns have entered the elite status in terms of the quality of our O line, and that changes a lot of things including the need to carry 3 QB's, is what I am saying. It is JMHO but I don't see the need to eat up a roster spot for a player that isn't very good to begin with, and that has less then a 10% chance of ever seeing the field anyway. I would be more inclined to keep a player at any position that has a chance of actually helping the team, then one that we aren't likely to win with anyway..

JMHO

I will bet you a box of donuts we keep a 3rd qb next year.

Cream or Jelly filled if you like.

I'll take jelly, your on Peen..

Yeah sure. As per the article we are probably going to give Anderson the highest contract tender, which means teams will have to give us a 1st and 3rd. We could place the franchise tag on him, which would require 2 1st round picks for compensation. The transitional tag gives only first option to match offers, no compensation picks. Only through negotiations can an inbetween point be arranged, and you can only go down. If noone negotiates the franchise tag, we are stuck paying 12 million.

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Only through negotiations can an inbetween point be arranged, and you can only go down.

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Are you saying that if we High tender him, the MOST we could get is a 1st and a 3rd?

Does that mean that if a team has made him an offer exceeding out High Tender,,, that we Can't say to them,,, Look,, if you don't give us a 1st and 2nd then we are gonna match and you lose him?

Are you saying we can't do that?

Thats exactly what I'm saying, because we can't get more than what we tender him for. If we want better than a 1st and 3rd, we have to give him a franshice tag. Teams would then have to give up two 1st round picks, but we could accept a lower value combination.

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because we can't get more than what we tender him for.

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Sure you can, just as a team can work it out so that you give up less than what you tender him for (see Shaub).

Basically, we threaten to match any offer they make unless they up the ante, so instead of them signing him away, we would negotiate a trade and upon completion of the trade, they would sign him to his long term contract.

As purp just explained,, You aren't right about it.

There is the minimum, but you can negoiate anything.. I think the League has to give it's final blessing for it to be a done deal... But my understanding is,, unless the deal breaks some kinda of law,, it's a rubber stamp.

Those free agents sound good to me. Then we give up DA and we take Frank Okam. Shaun Smith at nose with Haynesworth and Okam at the ends. For those of you who don't know Okam is the 6''5 Senior DT out of Texas who runs a 4.9. Deepthreat= Frank Okam pimp. Then we can take Vernon Gholston and Brian Hartline. Just joking. Though I do like both of them. And they address needs.

I'm only going on, what I felt the consensus here is. Maybe you can go both ways. I can't speak contract, so reading the contract wouldn't help.

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I'm only going on, what I felt the consensus here is.

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I'd have to read everything on here to deterime if that's the concensus,,but off the top of my head, I don't think it was.

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Maybe you can go both ways.

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That's NEVER gonna happen man,,, NEVER