Getting back to Froholdt. And ignoring PFF. He sucked again Saturday Constantly getting knocked into the backfield. Wiffing on blocks., needing constant help from both guards and except for two or three exceptions not winning his battles in one on one blocking. He is by far our worst lineman. And it's not even close. Of course I don't know any team that has a 5th string center thats good.
GM...post the video of the plays you speaking of and I'll give you my opinion...
Froholdt wasn't perfect but not too bad as a fill in center who has already shown to be a better OG when he was forced to take over when Teller went down.
Gee let me get right on that. Let me try to find 50 + plays online. Then let me try to learn how to post those on here.
GM...so now you start your duck and dive routine of excuses of how you can't review video and all that BS.
Getting back to Froholdt. And ignoring PFF. He sucked again Saturday Constantly getting knocked into the backfield. Wiffing on blocks., needing constant help from both guards and except for two or three exceptions not winning his battles in one on one blocking. He is by far our worst lineman. And it's not even close. Of course I don't know any team that has a 5th string center thats good.
GM...post the video of the plays you speaking of and I'll give you my opinion...
Froholdt wasn't perfect but not too bad as a fill in center who has already shown to be a better OG when he was forced to take over when Teller went down.
Gee let me get right on that. Let me try to find 50 + plays online. Then let me try to learn how to post those on here.
Not to mention the big waste of time. Mac has said he has already broken down the film showing the guy has played well when it is clear to everybody but him that Froholdt hasn't played all that well as a center.
I think most of us feel that Froholdt is a decent enough guard and has value on this team, but a center he is not.
peen...you too..excuses..! Basically you don't want to take the time to check out the crap that PFF is feeding you...it's so much easier for some to take the word of an outfit that admits that fewer than 10% of the people they employ are qualified to grade the video they are reviewing.
If PFF is judging an offensive center poorly...who the hell cares...maybe one damn fan of that particular team...this thread provided as evidence. Most simply take PFF's word and provide a ton of excuses for not questioning what PFF does.
BUT, what if PFF wrongly judged the play of a QB...think someone might call out PFF for what they are..?
Maybe some of you PFF worshipers would like to explain this...
The following criticism of PFF is "unchallenged" by PFF...
Advanced Statistics PFF claims to cover every player on every play of every game at the NFL and major college football level and creates advanced stats based on the information gleaned from this.
Criticism PFF has been criticized by the analytics community regarding the accuracy and veracity of its ratings. In contrast to the purely quantitative ratings released by sources like Football Outsiders, TeamRankings, and numberFire, PFF uses qualitative and opinion-based grading as the root of its 0–100 Player Grades – not its advanced statistics. As such, the 0–100 Player Grades are not truly quantitative and could be seen as being prone to bias, poor sample sizing, or other issues. link
We will see if the Browns stick w/Froholdt or go back to Pocic when he is healthy. That should tell us a lot on whether or not mac is correct or the rest of us are.
We will see if the Browns stick w/Froholdt or go back to Pocic when he is healthy. That should tell us a lot on whether or not mac is correct or the rest of us are.
VERS...oh yea, that a SET UP example to prove that MAC IS WRONG...nice try little one..!
NEVER have I claimed that Froholdt should be the Browns STARTING CENTER...have I VERS..?
Nice try Vers...you doing one of often used tactics LET VERS MOVE THE GOAL POSTS A HALF MILE OR SO...
I've said that Froholdt is not the piece of crap center that PFF is attempting to portray with their UNQUALIFIED REVIEWERS, who don't have to have any football experience to get their opinions published by PFF.
You said you reviewed every single play against the Bengals. You said you did not see any negatives w/him. You mentioned the poor play design on a reach block. You said the Browns were protecting Watson. You are the one who moved the goal posts about trying to make this about Watson.
mac, why would the Browns bench Froholdt if he played as well as you claim he did?
mac, how were you able to examine each and every play? How did you get your hands on detailed video of each and every play that gave you great views on Froholdt's play against the Bengals? mac, did you get that video from Froholdt's attorney?
If PFF is judging an offensive center poorly...who the hell cares...maybe one damn fan of that particular team...this thread provided as evidence. Most simply take PFF's word and provide a ton of excuses for not questioning what PFF does.
BUT, what if PFF wrongly judged the play of a QB...think someone might call out PFF for what they are..?
Maybe some of you PFF worshipers would like to explain this...
This is just one example of how bad PFF is at judging a players performance, based on their "no need for experience" crew...(pff's words, not mine).
Had it been an offensive center that PFF was trying to perform their character assassination routine on, none of our so called Browns fans would care..!
VERS...vers...that is ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR LIES..I never said that..you "simply" made it up in your own lil mind!
Let me put you on notice Vers...you started this...and I will post every one of YOUR DAMN LIES and ask you to provide the evidence..just so you know ahead of time.
Try..PLEASE TRY, to stay focused on the issue...I'm questioning the quality OF PFF AS A SOURCE for accurate and dependable FOOTBALL INFORMATION..!
You know, PFF, the folks that says they don't care if those judging these NFL player HAVE ANY FOOTBALL EXPERIENCE OF NOT.
Believe me VERS...that claim does not give PFF A PASS on being wrong about the judgments they make..!
I'm glad to see that KC fans stand up to the PFF BS they charge people $100s of dollars to DIGEST their PFF garbage that some claim, is nothing more than PFF "OPIONION"..!
You said you reviewed every single play against the Bengals. You said you did not see any negatives w/him. You mentioned the poor play design on a reach block. You said the Browns were protecting Watson. You are the one who moved the goal posts about trying to make this about Watson.
mac, why would the Browns bench Froholdt if he played as well as you claim he did?
mac, how were you able to examine each and every play? How did you get your hands on detailed video of each and every play that gave you great views on Froholdt's play against the Bengals? mac, did you get that video from Froholdt's attorney?
You said you reviewed every single play against the Bengals. You said you did not see any negatives w/him. You mentioned the poor play design on a reach block. You said the Browns were protecting Watson. You are the one who moved the goal posts about trying to make this about Watson.
mac, why would the Browns bench Froholdt if he played as well as you claim he did?
mac, how were you able to examine each and every play? How did you get your hands on detailed video of each and every play that gave you great views on Froholdt's play against the Bengals? mac, did you get that video from Froholdt's attorney?
"Objection! You're badgering the witness!"
Your Honor, I would argue that Mr. mac is a hostile witness. His testimony is antagonistic to the legal case of my client. Thus, I request the right to ask leading questions that will result in this court discovering the truth of the matter.
The fact is that the televised version of any game does not allow you to break down all the plays of any OL player. The televised version follows the ball. To suggest such a thing is foolish.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Getting back to Froholdt. And ignoring PFF. He sucked again Saturday Constantly getting knocked into the backfield. Wiffing on blocks., needing constant help from both guards and except for two or three exceptions not winning his battles in one on one blocking. He is by far our worst lineman. And it's not even close. Of course I don't know any team that has a 5th string center thats good.
GM...post the video of the plays you speaking of and I'll give you my opinion...
Froholdt wasn't perfect but not too bad as a fill in center who has already shown to be a better OG when he was forced to take over when Teller went down.
?Gee let me get right on that. Let me try to find 50 + plays online. Then let me try to learn how to post those on here.
Not to mention the big waste of time. Mac has said he has already broken down the film showing the guy has played well when it is clear to everybody but him that Froholdt hasn't played all that well as a center.
I think most of us feel that Froholdt is a decent enough guard and has value on this team, but a center he is not.
peen...you too..excuses..! Basically you don't want to take the time to check out the crap that PFF is feeding you...it's so much easier for some to take the word of an outfit that admits that fewer than 10% of the people they employ are qualified to grade the video they are reviewing.
Mac, I am not sure what you are watching, but you do realize the center is the guy who snaps the ball to the quarterback, right?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Hm, so statistics, judging players without any football experience, mac on a rant for a few pages about something that has changed the game in the past 10+ years. I think he's cracked the case. Shaggy, pull off the mask and see who's REALLY behind this evil empire...
Son of a.....and he would've gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those dang links and that meddling dawg.
Hm, so statistics, judging players without any football experience, mac on a rant for a few pages about something that has changed the game in the past 10+ years. I think he's cracked the case. Shaggy, pull off the mask and see who's REALLY behind this evil empire...
Son of a.....and he would've gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those dang links and that meddling dawg.
Well played, sir. Well played, indeed.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
You said you reviewed every single play against the Bengals. You said you did not see any negatives w/him. You mentioned the poor play design on a reach block. You said the Browns were protecting Watson. You are the one who moved the goal posts about trying to make this about Watson.
mac, why would the Browns bench Froholdt if he played as well as you claim he did?
mac, how were you able to examine each and every play? How did you get your hands on detailed video of each and every play that gave you great views on Froholdt's play against the Bengals? mac, did you get that video from Froholdt's attorney?
"Objection! You're badgering the witness!"
Your Honor, I would argue that Mr. mac is a hostile witness. His testimony is antagonistic to the legal case of my client. Thus, I request the right to ask leading questions that will result in this court discovering the truth of the matter.
The fact is that the televised version of any game does not allow you to break down all the plays of any OL player. The televised version follows the ball. To suggest such a thing is foolish.
Yet another excuse...if someone doesn't have a certain particular video, non of you can review an individuals play on the field....AND...ONLY PFF HAS THAT VIDEO... ...right..?
Some would have you believe that the PFF video is SO SPECIAL, PFF doesn't even need to have any football experience to give their break down..
That doesn't change a thing I said. Only deflection by you. The only time you actually see the OL through a play is during a running play. And even then you often don't see the entire OL throughout the play. On passing attempts the camera is mainly focused on the QB and as the ball travels to the WR. Your BS won't change that. Resorting to pointing the finger at PFF won't change that. You can not analyze an OL or DL player by simply replaying and using slow motion from the televised version of a game. So you keep deflecting about that. We all know it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Getting back to Froholdt. And ignoring PFF. He sucked again Saturday Constantly getting knocked into the backfield. Wiffing on blocks., needing constant help from both guards and except for two or three exceptions not winning his battles in one on one blocking. He is by far our worst lineman. And it's not even close. Of course I don't know any team that has a 5th string center thats good.
GM...post the video of the plays you speaking of and I'll give you my opinion...
Froholdt wasn't perfect but not too bad as a fill in center who has already shown to be a better OG when he was forced to take over when Teller went down.
Gee let me get right on that. Let me try to find 50 + plays online. Then let me try to learn how to post those on here.
GM...so now you start your duck and dive routine of excuses of how you can't review video and all that BS.
Like I do every single week. I taped the game Mac. I watch each play back in slow motion so I can focus on our Oline, and D-line. I reviewed the video like I always do. I gave you my opinion. I also said ignoring PFF as I trust my own eyes more than their opinion. It looks like your pretty much on your own with your opinion that NF is not a poor nfl center at this point.
Getting back to Froholdt. And ignoring PFF. He sucked again Saturday Constantly getting knocked into the backfield. Wiffing on blocks., needing constant help from both guards and except for two or three exceptions not winning his battles in one on one blocking. He is by far our worst lineman. And it's not even close. Of course I don't know any team that has a 5th string center thats good.
GM...post the video of the plays you speaking of and I'll give you my opinion...
Froholdt wasn't perfect but not too bad as a fill in center who has already shown to be a better OG when he was forced to take over when Teller went down.
Gee let me get right on that. Let me try to find 50 + plays online. Then let me try to learn how to post those on here.
GM...so now you start your duck and dive routine of excuses of how you can't review video and all that BS.
Like I do every single week. I taped the game Mac. I watch each play back in slow motion so I can focus on our Oline, and D-line. I reviewed the video like I always do. I gave you my opinion. I also said ignoring PFF as I trust my own eyes more than their opinion. It looks like your pretty much on your own with your opinion that NF is not a poor nfl center at this point.
Like I do every single week. I taped the game Mac. I watch each play back in slow motion so I can focus on our Oline, and D-line.
GM...I was waiting for someone to point out how easy it is to review a game...record it.
GM since you do record and review the performance of our center and the rest of the OLine, you should not have a problem pointing to every play where HF failed to complete his assignment..right?
Now I've never claimed that FroH is the greatest center in the NFL or that he has not missed a block or had a penalty, but he is not the soul reason the Browns OL has declined.
Here's the hilarious thing about this. History on these message boards has proven over time that if there were any legitimate reason to stick up for Frodholt in relationship to playing the C position, you would be the very first one to be sticking up for him. That's beyond dispute. I trust your opinion in regards to player performance far more than most on this board and that certainly includes Mac. If Frodholt had a leg to stand on regarding his play at C you would be the first to be saying it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I think that everyone is arguing who is wrong without considering the possibility that everyone is right.
Froholdt can be a terrible center while not being the entire problem while PFF can be a less-than-authoritative source for performance evaluation (anything subjective is, well, subjective and thus cannot be authoritative). Absolutely non of these things are mutually exclusive.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
And there in lies the miscommunication. For some reason Mac tried to say the article blamed Frodholt as THE problem when it plainly states he is ONE of THE problems.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Combine that with the fact he's the 3rd or 4th string center. You know, a fill in guy. You can't expect your 3rd or 4th string backup to be elite. He did the job he was tasked with, to the best of his ability. Period.
Like I do every single week. I taped the game Mac. I watch each play back in slow motion so I can focus on our Oline, and D-line.
GM...I was waiting for someone to point out how easy it is to review a game...record it.
GM since you do record and review the performance of our center and the rest of the OLine, you should not have a problem pointing to every play where HF failed to complete his assignment..right?
Now I've never claimed that FroH is the greatest center in the NFL or that he has not missed a block or had a penalty, but he is not the soul reason the Browns OL has declined.
What part of except for a few plays out of 50 he was beaten, wiffed, and had to have help. So that leaves about 46 or 47 out of 50 plays that he "failed to complete his assignment"
Good thing you never claimed he is the greatest center in the NFL or you would have a long date with a padded room and a nice straight jacket. Now you want to change the subject and claim he is not the only problem, then we can agree on that. Wills has not progressed like we all hoped he would and is nothing more than average at this point. Teller has not been the same since he was injured, and neither has, Conklin. However HF has been putrid at best while playing center.
Combine that with the fact he's the 3rd or 4th string center. You know, a fill in guy. You can't expect your 3rd or 4th string backup to be elite. He did the job he was tasked with, to the best of his ability. Period.
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
I think that everyone is arguing who is wrong without considering the possibility that everyone is right.
Froholdt can be a terrible center while not being the entire problem while PFF can be a less-than-authoritative source for performance evaluation (anything subjective is, well, subjective and thus cannot be authoritative). Absolutely non of these things are mutually exclusive.
I agree with the comments I quoted above and I took it a step further by criticizing the source who authored the story and cited PFF to back up his opinion. I've been a Browns fan for a while now and I was offended by this attack upon a backup center who is doing a decent job of filling in at center.
Ironically, few, if any other sources followed Jared Mueller's lead and wrote stories blaming our center for the Browns offensive line issues. Mueller's "hit job" article on Froholdt was meant to be "clickbait" and some Browns fans gobbled the story down and ran with it. Mueller's story pissed me off, especially after I reviewed video.
I will never apologize for defending our team or players when unfairly attacked, regardless of the source..my opinion, mac.
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...right..?
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..... 