DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where are the finishers on this team?

When was the last time an Andrew Berry draft pick did anything to win a football game for the Browns?
Five ought to come to mind immediately. ...
I. Jordan Elliot blocked that kick in the win over Baltimore, ...
2. OBJ, ... technically a Berry pick was used on OBJ who is no longer on the team

so I guess the future hopes of the Browns under Andrew Berry are resting on Jordan Elliott, phew.

Any others?
Any other Berry draft pick do anything to win the Browns a game this year? ... Crickets?

DW will be a finisher next year.....yeah, we gave up a ton....BUT he won't have rust of 700 days to get rid of....he'll DAZZLE us next year....GO Browns!!!

No, the first insult came from you when you claimed I had an agenda after I posted an honest opinion on Watson being a finisher. You start fights and then cry when someone points it out. Hell, I had you on ignore for about 5-6 months and you insulted me and/or called me out 5 plus times a day. Just stop w/your revisionist history.

Claiming you have an agenda isn't an insult - that's just simple truth. Using a quote to back handedly call others foolish is an insult and name calling.

Esit - stating that it is indisputable that Watson is a finisher is not a sustainable position. Saying he was a top QB and elite when he played in HOU is maybe indisputable. But the two things are not the same.

There truly wasn't an exceptional DW moment in that clip. I did see one 'almost' dirtball that's concerning and a damn ugly sack, though. You could do better trying to prove your point with a video showing the Elite DW I keep hearing about. Just saying since you will probably think this is an attack.

Fine. He's not a finisher.

Teams were drooling at the chance to sign him and trade multiple first round picks for him because they think he is a nice guy.

and I told a joke that flew over your head.

I understood the joke. But my question was asked hoping to
Get some very insightful responses. But I understood the joke.
No problem. But since 1999 this franchise has continued
To be a joke. I mean for any franchise that hires bums like
George Farmer to be your GM to signing Dwayne Bowe for huge $$$
Reinforces the joke narrative.
Always next year I guess

Food for thought here. Is it the players disappearing or are we being out coached and not making adjustments in the second half? IMO It's both.


The roster also has some large holes, and still lacks depth at several positions. The blame for that lays with the front office not most of the players. Teams win championships and playoff games not individual players.

GM, do you have any specific examples of how we are being out coached? I respect your opinions. You are not part of that agenda group that blames Stefanski for everything.

I think the main thing this team is missing are positive leaders. We miss Landry. We miss Sheldon Richardson. Myles is not a good leader in my opinion. He points fingers rather than thumbs. So does JJ III, the other "leader" on D.

I think Jacoby is a good leader, but his time was limited and everyone knew it. I know that Watson was a very good leader in Houston, but his time on the field has been short. I expect he will take that title next year. But, what about on defense?

I also think it is important that we add a game breaker. A guy who can take a short pass and take it to the house. A guy who can blow by single coverage. They probably hoped Schwartz could be that guy. They thought wrong.

I think something is lacking during the week leading up
To the game. I'm a firm believer games are lost not on
Sunday but in the preparation for the game.
Maybe some guys aren't all in on what's being coached
Maybe some players are more about them than team.
I just know there was reports back in the summer when
The Browns scrimmaged the Eagles, the Eagles looked
Focused and determined
But the Browns were treating it like a country club

I hope you are correct about Watson. But he quit on his team for the '21 season and his demonstrative actions and gesturing on the field when something doesn't work is already quite annoying.

"I also think it is important that we add a game breaker. A guy who can take a short pass and take it to the house. A guy who can blow by single coverage. They probably hoped Schwartz could be that guy. They thought wrong."

We've needed that ^ guy STR.

How could you possibly know that if you had him on ignore? When you go off the rails you tell on yourself.

Puh-Lease ! Your post makes it look as if he was accurate with his giant bald faced lies. I've certainly never stopped responding to his posts. I've definitely had days when I posted more than 5 replies to him. I most definitely have not posted an average of 5 posts a day to him - not even close no matter what the victim in him thinks.

And while he continued to claim he had us all on ignore he couldn't keep my name out of his posts - yours also ... which is childish and passive aggressive to say the least.

As for "You start fights and then cry when someone points it out." - that's exactly what he does ALL the time, no-one else. And I'll call him on that nonsense every time.

One example.. look at out defense. It is ranked 3rd in the nfl in points allowed during the 1st quarter, and ranked 16th in points allowed in the 2nd quarter. Which suggests that our coaching and game plan look good pre-game. Now look at the 3rd and 4th quarters. 3rd quarter we are ranked 28th, and 4th quarter ranked 26th. It looks like we are failing to make adjustments during the game or at half time.

Thanks. Woods is almost certainly gone at the end of the year.

I have been wanting Jim Leohnard for some time now and am starting to see some buzz about that.

I hope so. I think he can walk right in and command the respect of the players in the locker room.

Leonard is one of the two hot names I have read about. The other is Ejiro Evero. He may be available now that Hacket got fired in Denver and he refused the Interim job there. He is a candidate to be a HC this upcoming year, though.

Based on recent reports, it’s almost a certainty that Woods is gone at the very least

Leohnard has NO NFL coaching experience...

...and only 6 years of College coaching experience...

As a coach:
Wisconsin (2016)
Defensive backs coach
Wisconsin (2017–2022)
Defensive coordinator & defensive backs coach
Wisconsin (2022)
Interim head coach

I'm not sure how the NFL would view such a move...a franchise naming someone to be a DC even though the candidate has no NFL coaching experience. I don't know if the NFL has established standards for hiring Coordinators...such as interviewing minorities, for example.

He played at a high level in the NFL for 9 years, including one year here in Cleveland... so, it's not like the NFL would be unfamiliar territory for him.

This sounds much like the same thing that Browns fans advocate over and over again only to end up with the same results. Let's see if we can hire someone who has never coached at this level or at this job at this level and see if they can do it? Color me skeptical.

It could be. I'm in the boat where I've seen us hire people with tons of experience, lots of success, no experience, little success.. and all of the results have been the same. Ineffective. So, my conclusion is "Why not?". Unless someone has shown that they are completely incompetent, I don't see the problem.

Take Woods as Example #1: He came here from the 49ers with a great reputation behind him. How is that holding up?

The problem seems to be that we have always been the recipients of finding out they're completely incompetent. I have to admit it's probably more my own skepticism than anything else. It just always seems to me that we're sold the idea that the new hires are the best thing since sliced bread only to find out later they can't even slice bread.

That's called "marketing". It puts butts in seats.

Now, cue the "4-3, 3-4... 5-2" discussions on which defense we're going to switch to.

I had no idea some of the posters on this board worked in marketing for the Browns.

prp...you are not saying that experience as DC at Wisconsin is equal to NFL experience as a DC, are you..?

Should the Browns make such a move, they would have one the least qualified DCs in NFL history...that should make Browns fans feel like Depodesta has the Browns are ready for a run at a Super Bowl Championship in 2023...unless Jimma and Depo are going to try to play the MAYBE NEXT YEAR CARD AGAIN, for the 2023 season.

mac, you're not saying he wouldn't use his NFL experience playing defense as a DC at Wisconsin, are you?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein.

Do we really have a history of hiring coaches who have never coached at this level?

I take that in two different ways

The Browns have hired coaches who have coached in the NFL

As a HC, I'm sure most haven't coached at a level that brings

Play-offs and Championships as a norm !

I'm throwing the level out ! LOL

That's fine. I took it as Pit talking out his rear end again.

That's because you never take anything serious that challenges you agenda. How many HC's has Haslam hired that have ever held that position before? Even at this moment two of the three highest coaching positions on the team have never held their respective positions before at the NFL level. Both Stenfanski and Van Pelt have never had any experience in the NFL at their jobs before coming here. I could go on but it's pointless to bother posting something most everybody already knows.

I still would like to know which guys we have hired have never coached in the NFL.

Maybe the wide receiver coach, but in the end it doesn't matter IMO.

All coaches in the NFL have been at a point where they have never coached in the NFL.

Makes you wonder, if you keep hiring people who's skills are proven elsewhere and the come here and flop, maybe they aren't the problem?

I don't think it is a Cleveland Jinx or the owners are somehow telling coaches how to coach.

I think many times the "hot" candidates have been covered up by superior players and head coaches. Most guys who get hired in to leading coaching roles don't come from teams that suck. They come from good teams that they very possibly did little to make good.

Here's the Browns HC history. 22 HC hires after Paul Brown with only 3 having prior HC experience and none of those 3 having posted a winning record as a HC prior to coming to Cleveland. Only 5 coaches to date have posted winning records over the 59 years since Paul Brown: Blanton Collier 1963-1970 (79-38-2 @ .675), Gregg Williams 2018 (5-3-0 @.625), Schottenheimer 1984-1988 (46-31-0 @ .597), Nick Skorich 1971-1974 (30-26-2 @ .536) and currently Kevin Stefanski 2020-current (26-24-0 @ .520). The Cleveland Browns have never hired an experienced HC with a winning record in the history of the Cleveland Browns. The current hit rate for hiring a HC coach that produces a career winning record is 19% (4/21) with the jury still out on Stefanski.


Name_________League____Years____Regular Season Records___Playoff Records__Combined Records__Prior HC Experience

Kevin Stefanski__NFL______2020 - ______25-23-0 (0.521)_____1-1-0 (0.500)____26-24-0 (0.520)______NONE
Freddie Kitchens_NFL______2019_________6-10-0 (0.375)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____6-10-0 (0.375)______NONE
Gregg Williams__NFL______2018*________5-_3-0 (0.625)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____5-_3-0 (0.625)______NONE
Hue Jackson____NFL______2016 - 2018___3-36-1 (0.088)_____ 0-0-0 (0.000)_____3-36-1 (0.088)______1 year (Oakland 8-8)
Mike Pettine____NFL______2014 - 2015__10-22-0 (0.313)______0-0-0 (0.000)____10-22-0 (0.313)______NONE
Rob Chudzinski_NFL_______2013________4-12-0 (0.250)______0-0-0 (0.000)_____4-12-0 (0.250)______NONE
Pat Shurmur___ NFL______2011 - 2012___ 9-23-0 (0.281)______0-0-0 (0.000)_____9-23-0 (0.281)______NONE
Eric Mangini____NFL______2009 - 2010__10-22-0 (0.313)______0-0-0 (0.000)____10-22-0 (0.313)______3 years (NYJETS 23-26, 1 playoff appearance)
Romeo Crennel_NFL______2005 - 2008___24-40-0 (0.375)_____ 0-0-0 (0.000)____24-40-0 (0.375)______NONE
Terry Robiskie__NFL______2004*_________1-_4-0 (0.200)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____1-_4-0 (0.200)______NONE
Butch Davis____NFL______2001 - 2004___24-35-0 (0.407)_____0-1-0 (0.000)____24-36-0 (0.400)______NONE
Chris Palmer___ NFL______1999 - 2000____5-27-0 (0.156)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____5-27-0 (0.156)______NONE
Bill Belichick___ NFL______1991 - 1995___ 36-44-0 (0.450)_____1-1-0 (0.500)____37-45-0 (0.451)______NONE
Jim Shofner____NFL______1990*_________1-_6-0 (0.143)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____1-_6-0 (0.143)______NONE
Bud Carson____NFL______1989 - 1990____11-13-1 (0.458)____1-1-0 (0.500)_____12-14-1 (0.462)______NONE
Marty Schottenheimer____1984 - 1988____44-27-0 (0.620)____2-4-0 (0.333)_____46-31-0 (0.597)______NONE
Sam Rutigliano_ NFL_____1978 - 1984____ 47-50-0 (0.485)____0-2-0 (0.000)_____47-52-0 (0.475)______NONE
Dick Modzelewski________1977*__________0-_1-0 (0.000)____0-0-0 (0.000)______0-_1-0 (0.000)______NONE
Forrest Gregg__ NFL_____1975 - 1977____ 18-23-0 (0.485)____0-0-0 (0.000)______18-23-0 (0.485)_____NONE
Nick Skorich___ NFL_____1971 - 1974____ 30-24-2 (0.556)____0-2-0 (0.000)______30-26-2 (0.536)_____3 years (Philadelphia 15-24-3)
Blanton Collier__NFL_____1963 - 1970____76-34-2 (0.691)____3-4-0 (0.429)______79-38-2 (0.675)_____NONE
Paul Brown_____NFL_____1950 - 1962___111-44-5 (0.691)____4-5-0 (0.444)_____115-49-5 (0.701)
Paul Brown____AAFC____1946 - 1949_____47-_4-3 (0.922)____5-0-0 (1.000)______52-_4-3 (0.929)

Thanks. I didn't think we hired any coaches w/out straight from college. Although, your list is only for head coaches. This discussion started w/Leonhard as a candidate for DC and him not having any NFL coaching experience, so perhaps we have hired coordinators who didn't have NFL coaching experience, but I just don't remember who they were.