Keep on hearing how much talent this franchise has.
How many Pro Bowlers are up and down this roster
How elite this guy is or how great this guy is.
Yet when it matters in crunch time or 4th quarter
Where is all this elite talent at ?
This team has been in every game this year minus
The Pats game.
But when the heat is on, this team melts like butter
On a buttermilk biscuit.
Coaches coach players play. I understand the coaching
Staff and coordinators are open to justification of criticism
But how the accountability of the players?
Maybe Andrew Berry should be drafting players from
Colleges who showed up and delivered on the biggest stages
When it mattered. Looks like this roster has too many
Mental cremecakes led by Anthony Schwartz.
I look at all these teams that win, they have 4th q. Playmakers
The Browns don't. Does PFF have player grades for the 4th q. ?

A really hard-nosed middle linebacker type could help, but mostly this is an indictment of a coach who needs his pulse checked at crunch time. I don’t believe he wants to lose, but he acts like it doesn’t bother him very much.

He hasn't shown it in his short term here, but Watson is a finisher. That can't be disputed and it is a huge part of the reason why so many teams wanted to trade for him.

I think the idea that DW is an undisputed finisher is far, far from the truth or a statement that can't be questioned:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WatsDe00.htm

He's 30-27 as a starter in the NFL. He quit on his team for a year and sat rather than play - we can debate whether he was upset at words said by the owner or if he was having a hissy fit because he didn't get to choose the next HC ... but bottom line he CHOSE to sit.

He's shown an abundance of talent. He's not proven to be an undisputed "finisher". That'd be someone's agenda talking.

What's that saying that ends w/something like "...remove all doubt?"

Once again, posters on this message board pretending they know more than all the other GMs and organizations in the NFL do about certain players. Talk about delusions of grandeur.

Ignoring the other responses which came after.
some of the finishers have been waived, cut, or not extended or however you want to put it, from a couple of years ago.
Maybe they don't like winners.

For a team with no finishers we certainly always end up finished

This topic should be why does the Browns offense not do better on so many drives.

Quality football response.

So your argument goes something along the lines of multiple NFL GMs bid on Watson ergobhe must be a finisher.

I don't think your argument is as strong as you believe. And as for the rest of the implied name calling and reference to a famous quote... Merry Christmas to you to.

I'm not a super big Watson guy, but I think it's safe to say he's an upgrade over Baker by a pretty decent margin. The problem is whatever his ceiling is will never be reached with Stefanski. Stefanski is not a head coach. I'm sure he's great at organizing team drills at camp cupcake and keeping the team on their paper schedule while telling the team "it's about the work" while they stare into space and yawn, but that's where his strengths stop.

It was clear Baker didn't know how to play the QB position regardless of Stefanski. I think Watson knows how to play it, but he will be held back by an incompetent HC.

Buckle in folks. If you think this year was a failure, 2023 promises to upstage it.

But this isn't a Baker topic or discussion, and I think you are being kind - by any measure of Watson in Houston and Baker for the Browns there is a very wide margin. Baker 2022 to Watson in Houston isn't in the same galaxy. But the comment/discussion is whether Watson is an undisputed finisher. His win loss record says otherwise, his stats say otherwise, his sitting out a year for whatever reason might indicate to some otherwise.

I think you toss this season out no matter what. People can and have made an argument that Watson should be closer to full game speed/performance, but I'm truly not in a rush to judge what he can do. Give him a full offseason and lets see him play next year. That's him / his talent and ability. Yes - Stefanski may well have an impact on Watson's ceiling and play - but he may also adapt? Let's wait and see. . . . on the issue of whether DW is an undisputed finisher? Only on the massage table at this point.

We have issues with a staff who does not seem mentally tough enough to demand results. We don't put people away (just ourselves). We have a talented group, but little to show for it. It doesn't seem to prove troublesome. We are busy learning from our mistakes, eliminating mistakes, learning to talk to each other, and moving forward while telling fans we are better while taking ownership of failures, most caused by us. I see us giving up leads, our offense drying up in the second half, and becoming drier still in the fourth quarter, and crapping out with final drive, game on the line.
When I was younger, I sold component stereo equipment. One truth I stressed to clients was this: Your system is only as good as your weakest component. Spend heavily on speakers or receivers or turntables as you wish, but all performance drops to the Lowest denominator. That's us it seems. We may have a fabulous QB, who seems good at throwing it into our bench and seldom running. But if Ski can't perform, and is too stubborn to give up play calling, then it will be a waste. We should be able to do more, but we get muscled and hustled. We seem OK with penalties and group failures. I haven't seen game-winning improvement, and I haven't seen much adjustments. If they like Ski, great! But I think he needs to have new parameters about the culture his bosses will insist upon, different demands. He may choose to go. Or go forward learning from this GIGO process that is installed. I want the Browns to win and be respectable.

Next year at this time I'd like to be talking about us being in the playoffs, possibly wining our division and who are opponent in the playoff's will be. That's what I'd like but I've got the feeling we'll be talking about the same old stuff we've been discussing for how long? I can't understand why we're one of the few teams that just can't get it right no matter who we have as players, coaches or the FO. What a shame.

Where are the finishers? Ask OBJ's daddy; he had it all figured out last year and turned the fanbase on our franchise QB.

Baker turned the fanbase on himself with poor play and immaturity. He's not a franchise QB. Guy has been on three teams this year alone.

I rag on Stefanski for not prioritizing winning but it really starts at the top. If Haslam prioritized winning we would have never hired Stefanski to begin with...or Depo for that matter.

Until the ownership changes or until the ownership changes, the Browns will never be good.

So you replace him with a guy facing 26 accusations of sexual impropriety; what's mature about him? Several posters say he's elite; I honestly can't say that because I never followed or watched him play, excluding games against us. I think he should be playing better now if that were true, but I'm holding out hope he will be that next year. Everything says this should have been a positive move in the W column. So far, meh. I'm not saying he's not elite; I'm saying I haven't seen that from him. Considering everything his fan club says, I'd be lying if I said he's been anything more than disappointing in his first few games. IMO, of course.

And I get you don't like Baker, but he played better for us than ANY other QB since the return. I think we should have given him more time and an extension; we gave up on him over the shiny ELITE toy more than his poor play, IMO. The FO obviously thinks DW is Elite too, and that is better than what they consistently got from Baker, even if he flashed eliteness fairly often in his time here. You can make up whatever narrative you want, but just like he didn't face one of the worst defenses in the league today, he wasn't a bad QB and is still above average for NFL QBs.

Rish, I have to ask you a question. If the Haslam's didn't care about wining, why would they give the OK to trade for DW spending all that money and knowing the heat he would bring with all that baggage? To me that's a sign JH wants to win. It's a legit ? and I have no axes to grind with you.

Chubb COULD be a finisher, but we all know KS doesn't use him on 3rd downs or important short yardage situations, he'd rather "keep the D honest" and chuck the ball downfield for an incompletion. I can only remember Myles dominating 1 game in his career, last year against the Bears. He did get a critical sack against TB12 to help with the win a couple games back, but otherwise his sacks come in like the 2nd or 3rd quarter where it doesn't make any significant difference.

Our window for success with the talent we do have is rapidly closing, at this point I say make a run for Sean Payton. We have the talent he would love to have, I just don't know if we have the capital to trade with NO to make it work.

You are asking questions to a guy who is a "glass half empty" person. Unless everything is perfect, it is doom and gloom.

In the realm of fans and this thread, he isn't a finisher.

DAYUM.

It wasn't meant to be an insult. It is what it is. I am not always a finisher. In my new 2K23 golf, if I am not playing well after 5-6 holes, I quit and start over. It costs me a golf ball and some reputation with my sponsors, but I am not going to grind through a crappy round.

We have a lot of finishers on this team. Just look at the facts. We have finished our season in 15 games this year. Our season IS finished.

I'm talking about players on this roster that show up in 4th
Q. When the game is on the line . I see too many players
That make plays for the 1st 2.5 q. Then poof they disappear
The remainder of the game.
This roster might have a bunch of Pro Bowl players
But sure has heck doesn't equate to playoff appearances

I'll try again despite 888 trying to start another fight w/his personal insults. Are you really going to tell me that Watson isn't a "finisher?" He was excellent in the clutch in many games. Teams were fighting to acquire him because he could "finish" games. They overlooked his off the field issues. As for the ignorant "hissy fit" comment, that has nothing to do w/"finishing" on the field. Tell me how he isn't a finisher. And we are talking about a "finisher" as it pertains on how one performs on the field. Let's not allow the Fabulous Baker Boys to change the context of what a "finisher" is.

I think we can turn those comments right around, and correctly so to pertain exactly as written and they work for Baker Mayfield.
Is anyone really going to tell me that Baker Mayfield isn't a finisher? He was excellent in the clutch in many games. Teams were fighting to ac@uire him because he cou... actually can still "finish" games. They overlooked his off the field issues, if there were any.
Baker is no longer on the Browns Watson is on the Browns now. Which one is better? I think they are neck and neck.
One played better this week.
We will never know if Baker would have led the Browns to a win over the saints this week.

I think Watson has shown in the past he can pull out 4th q. Wins
I'm not so sure his surrounding cast has alot of clutch performers
What I have noticed alot in the league this year is alot of teams
Simply cannot put teams away in the 2nd half
Teams are up by double digits and they let the leads slip away

I quoted this only to make a point here. Those who support Stefanski use this same excuse to support him. They find it a valid reason for him to stay on as HC. Those who generally support Baker don't agree with that.

Those who support Baker use it as an excuse as why he should have been kept on as the Browns QB. Those who use the very same excuse to support Stenfanski find it a silly argument when it's used to support Baker.

You couldn't make that crap up if you tried.

Using the excuse that mediocrity should be accepted by either one is a non starter.

I believe that you have missed the actual point, if not just for me - but of many others. Replacing Mayfield with an upgrade to the position was never the issue. Only a complete fool would think that Watson was not an upgrade considering past performance. The point then and now has always been the way the Browns handled the move, the character of the person they made the move for, Stefanski's handling of the injured QB, and the constant spew of hatred by an agenda driven person who hated Mayfield so much he left the forum for over a year. The same person that resorts to name calling and accusations of being agenda driven when he himself is the worst offender on the entire site.

Now the conversation has switched to where the blame really lies - the inept HC Stefanski. The fans here who are trying to carry on a spirited but respectful conversation about the shortcomings of the team and who's responsible is again being hijacked by the exact same person with the exact same reason he spits out to anyone who questions the Browns poorer season this year than last with his hatred driven agenda again. Though in another thread, the opportunity to upgrade the HC position with a higher quality person with no character issues for the Browns HC position has now become a supposed agenda driven attack. It's perfectly fine to go and upgrade the QB position with a better player with clear questionable ethic issues but when we have the opportunity to secure probably the one of the best HC's in the history of the Cleveland Browns, we get accused of driving an agenda created in the mind of the poster that was AWOL for over a year due to his hatred.

I am in total agreement; you can't make this crap up if you tried.


,

I'm not going to debate any of that with you. I'm simply pointing out that on many occasions I've heard each side of the debate use the excuse that "But he is the winningest 'fill in the blank' since the team returned in 1999." Then they dismiss that exact same reasoning when the other side uses it.

Does it go much deeper than that as you have described? Yes it most certainly does. That's just not a can of worms I'm going to help open in the Pure Football forum while the season is going on.

The actual point is this is a thread about Finishers. Not a thread about who likes Baker and who doesn't. You guys are like the plague.

So I take it you aren't giving your seal of approval on this thread like you did in the Franco Harris thread? We are truly devastated.

Lot's of "you' and "we" in your posts. The great Social Media bullying technique.

And how did you manage to make up that BS? Desperation is the only possibility. You mean like the "everyone can see" that you used? Mirrors can be helpful.

I think Haslam cares about winning. I don't think he prioritizes winning. There's a difference.

Other than practicing tackling (which is laughable), name one other thing Stefanski did to try and help the Browns win.

I have no doubt they all want to win, but I don't think they prioritize winning. This is obviously a difficult concept for many to grasp. I firmly believe Stefanski wants to win so badly calling plays that he prioritizes winning where he calls plays vs just winning.

Until this team consistently makes decisions that prioritize winning nothing will ever change.

And yes, I'm a glass half empty guy. We are 6-9 on our way to 6-11. I would love to be more glass half full, but I just don't see any silver linings. At the end of the day I only care about one thing...just win football games.

The last time you predicted this team would lose the rest of their games it cost you $50.

If that were the secret to winning and losing I'd bet every week and gladly lose.

I just want to win football games.

It's just a cautionary tale for those who may consider taking your predictions seriously.

Jeremiah Owusu Koramoah has not been as much of a finisher as he was hyped. Newsome and Emmerson were playing better even before J.O.K. got put on IR.

Just to be clear and on track with the theme of the thread - no-one has proven or even attempted to put a debatable point that Watson is a "Finisher" ... having multiple teams bid on a talented player doesn't make them a finisher. Having a barely above .500 record doesn't make them a finisher. Sitting out a year doesn't make them a finisher. No-one has ever questioned Watson as a much better QB than any other QB the Browns have had since 1999 ... that also does not make him a finisher. The idea that he is an "undisputed" finisher is not only wrong, it hasn't been supported in any way since the claim was made.

As for insults and fighting - I haven't read every post, but the first insult came in the veiled insult referring to a famous quote: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

No-one before that insulted anyone. There was no name calling. No Bullying and no crying victim. But since that non-football comment and post, the thread has literally gone to hell. One cancerous poster with an agenda and another thread derailed.

When was the last time an Andrew Berry draft pick did anything to win a football game for the Browns?
Five ought to come to mind immediately. ...
I. Jordan Elliot blocked that kick in the win over Baltimore, ...
2. OBJ, ... technically a Berry pick was used on OBJ who is no longer on the team

so I guess the future hopes of the Browns under Andrew Berry are resting on Jordan Elliott, phew.

Any others?
Any other Berry draft pick do anything to win the Browns a game this year? ... Crickets?

DW will be a finisher next year.....yeah, we gave up a ton....BUT he won't have rust of 700 days to get rid of....he'll DAZZLE us next year....GO Browns!!!

No, the first insult came from you when you claimed I had an agenda after I posted an honest opinion on Watson being a finisher. You start fights and then cry when someone points it out. Hell, I had you on ignore for about 5-6 months and you insulted me and/or called me out 5 plus times a day. Just stop w/your revisionist history.

#notafinisher

Claiming you have an agenda isn't an insult - that's just simple truth. Using a quote to back handedly call others foolish is an insult and name calling.

Esit - stating that it is indisputable that Watson is a finisher is not a sustainable position. Saying he was a top QB and elite when he played in HOU is maybe indisputable. But the two things are not the same.

There truly wasn't an exceptional DW moment in that clip. I did see one 'almost' dirtball that's concerning and a damn ugly sack, though. You could do better trying to prove your point with a video showing the Elite DW I keep hearing about. Just saying since you will probably think this is an attack.

Fine. He's not a finisher.

Teams were drooling at the chance to sign him and trade multiple first round picks for him because they think he is a nice guy.

and I told a joke that flew over your head.

I understood the joke. But my question was asked hoping to
Get some very insightful responses. But I understood the joke.
No problem. But since 1999 this franchise has continued
To be a joke. I mean for any franchise that hires bums like
George Farmer to be your GM to signing Dwayne Bowe for huge $$$
Reinforces the joke narrative.
Always next year I guess

Food for thought here. Is it the players disappearing or are we being out coached and not making adjustments in the second half? IMO It's both.


The roster also has some large holes, and still lacks depth at several positions. The blame for that lays with the front office not most of the players. Teams win championships and playoff games not individual players.

GM, do you have any specific examples of how we are being out coached? I respect your opinions. You are not part of that agenda group that blames Stefanski for everything.

I think the main thing this team is missing are positive leaders. We miss Landry. We miss Sheldon Richardson. Myles is not a good leader in my opinion. He points fingers rather than thumbs. So does JJ III, the other "leader" on D.

I think Jacoby is a good leader, but his time was limited and everyone knew it. I know that Watson was a very good leader in Houston, but his time on the field has been short. I expect he will take that title next year. But, what about on defense?

I also think it is important that we add a game breaker. A guy who can take a short pass and take it to the house. A guy who can blow by single coverage. They probably hoped Schwartz could be that guy. They thought wrong.

I think something is lacking during the week leading up
To the game. I'm a firm believer games are lost not on
Sunday but in the preparation for the game.
Maybe some guys aren't all in on what's being coached
Maybe some players are more about them than team.
I just know there was reports back in the summer when
The Browns scrimmaged the Eagles, the Eagles looked
Focused and determined
But the Browns were treating it like a country club

I hope you are correct about Watson. But he quit on his team for the '21 season and his demonstrative actions and gesturing on the field when something doesn't work is already quite annoying.

"I also think it is important that we add a game breaker. A guy who can take a short pass and take it to the house. A guy who can blow by single coverage. They probably hoped Schwartz could be that guy. They thought wrong."

We've needed that ^ guy STR.

How could you possibly know that if you had him on ignore? When you go off the rails you tell on yourself.

Puh-Lease ! Your post makes it look as if he was accurate with his giant bald faced lies. I've certainly never stopped responding to his posts. I've definitely had days when I posted more than 5 replies to him. I most definitely have not posted an average of 5 posts a day to him - not even close no matter what the victim in him thinks.

And while he continued to claim he had us all on ignore he couldn't keep my name out of his posts - yours also ... which is childish and passive aggressive to say the least.

As for "You start fights and then cry when someone points it out." - that's exactly what he does ALL the time, no-one else. And I'll call him on that nonsense every time.

One example.. look at out defense. It is ranked 3rd in the nfl in points allowed during the 1st quarter, and ranked 16th in points allowed in the 2nd quarter. Which suggests that our coaching and game plan look good pre-game. Now look at the 3rd and 4th quarters. 3rd quarter we are ranked 28th, and 4th quarter ranked 26th. It looks like we are failing to make adjustments during the game or at half time.

Thanks. Woods is almost certainly gone at the end of the year.

I have been wanting Jim Leohnard for some time now and am starting to see some buzz about that.

I hope so. I think he can walk right in and command the respect of the players in the locker room.

Leonard is one of the two hot names I have read about. The other is Ejiro Evero. He may be available now that Hacket got fired in Denver and he refused the Interim job there. He is a candidate to be a HC this upcoming year, though.

Based on recent reports, it’s almost a certainty that Woods is gone at the very least

Leohnard has NO NFL coaching experience...

...and only 6 years of College coaching experience...

As a coach:
Wisconsin (2016)
Defensive backs coach
Wisconsin (2017–2022)
Defensive coordinator & defensive backs coach
Wisconsin (2022)
Interim head coach

I'm not sure how the NFL would view such a move...a franchise naming someone to be a DC even though the candidate has no NFL coaching experience. I don't know if the NFL has established standards for hiring Coordinators...such as interviewing minorities, for example.

He played at a high level in the NFL for 9 years, including one year here in Cleveland... so, it's not like the NFL would be unfamiliar territory for him.

This sounds much like the same thing that Browns fans advocate over and over again only to end up with the same results. Let's see if we can hire someone who has never coached at this level or at this job at this level and see if they can do it? Color me skeptical.

It could be. I'm in the boat where I've seen us hire people with tons of experience, lots of success, no experience, little success.. and all of the results have been the same. Ineffective. So, my conclusion is "Why not?". Unless someone has shown that they are completely incompetent, I don't see the problem.

Take Woods as Example #1: He came here from the 49ers with a great reputation behind him. How is that holding up?

The problem seems to be that we have always been the recipients of finding out they're completely incompetent. I have to admit it's probably more my own skepticism than anything else. It just always seems to me that we're sold the idea that the new hires are the best thing since sliced bread only to find out later they can't even slice bread.

That's called "marketing". It puts butts in seats.

Now, cue the "4-3, 3-4... 5-2" discussions on which defense we're going to switch to.

I had no idea some of the posters on this board worked in marketing for the Browns.

prp...you are not saying that experience as DC at Wisconsin is equal to NFL experience as a DC, are you..?

Should the Browns make such a move, they would have one the least qualified DCs in NFL history...that should make Browns fans feel like Depodesta has the Browns are ready for a run at a Super Bowl Championship in 2023...unless Jimma and Depo are going to try to play the MAYBE NEXT YEAR CARD AGAIN, for the 2023 season.

mac, you're not saying he wouldn't use his NFL experience playing defense as a DC at Wisconsin, are you?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein.

Do we really have a history of hiring coaches who have never coached at this level?

I take that in two different ways

The Browns have hired coaches who have coached in the NFL

As a HC, I'm sure most haven't coached at a level that brings

Play-offs and Championships as a norm !

I'm throwing the level out ! LOL

That's fine. I took it as Pit talking out his rear end again.

That's because you never take anything serious that challenges you agenda. How many HC's has Haslam hired that have ever held that position before? Even at this moment two of the three highest coaching positions on the team have never held their respective positions before at the NFL level. Both Stenfanski and Van Pelt have never had any experience in the NFL at their jobs before coming here. I could go on but it's pointless to bother posting something most everybody already knows.

I still would like to know which guys we have hired have never coached in the NFL.

Maybe the wide receiver coach, but in the end it doesn't matter IMO.

All coaches in the NFL have been at a point where they have never coached in the NFL.

Makes you wonder, if you keep hiring people who's skills are proven elsewhere and the come here and flop, maybe they aren't the problem?

I don't think it is a Cleveland Jinx or the owners are somehow telling coaches how to coach.

I think many times the "hot" candidates have been covered up by superior players and head coaches. Most guys who get hired in to leading coaching roles don't come from teams that suck. They come from good teams that they very possibly did little to make good.

Here's the Browns HC history. 22 HC hires after Paul Brown with only 3 having prior HC experience and none of those 3 having posted a winning record as a HC prior to coming to Cleveland. Only 5 coaches to date have posted winning records over the 59 years since Paul Brown: Blanton Collier 1963-1970 (79-38-2 @ .675), Gregg Williams 2018 (5-3-0 @.625), Schottenheimer 1984-1988 (46-31-0 @ .597), Nick Skorich 1971-1974 (30-26-2 @ .536) and currently Kevin Stefanski 2020-current (26-24-0 @ .520). The Cleveland Browns have never hired an experienced HC with a winning record in the history of the Cleveland Browns. The current hit rate for hiring a HC coach that produces a career winning record is 19% (4/21) with the jury still out on Stefanski.


Name_________League____Years____Regular Season Records___Playoff Records__Combined Records__Prior HC Experience

Kevin Stefanski__NFL______2020 - ______25-23-0 (0.521)_____1-1-0 (0.500)____26-24-0 (0.520)______NONE
Freddie Kitchens_NFL______2019_________6-10-0 (0.375)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____6-10-0 (0.375)______NONE
Gregg Williams__NFL______2018*________5-_3-0 (0.625)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____5-_3-0 (0.625)______NONE
Hue Jackson____NFL______2016 - 2018___3-36-1 (0.088)_____ 0-0-0 (0.000)_____3-36-1 (0.088)______1 year (Oakland 8-8)
Mike Pettine____NFL______2014 - 2015__10-22-0 (0.313)______0-0-0 (0.000)____10-22-0 (0.313)______NONE
Rob Chudzinski_NFL_______2013________4-12-0 (0.250)______0-0-0 (0.000)_____4-12-0 (0.250)______NONE
Pat Shurmur___ NFL______2011 - 2012___ 9-23-0 (0.281)______0-0-0 (0.000)_____9-23-0 (0.281)______NONE
Eric Mangini____NFL______2009 - 2010__10-22-0 (0.313)______0-0-0 (0.000)____10-22-0 (0.313)______3 years (NYJETS 23-26, 1 playoff appearance)
Romeo Crennel_NFL______2005 - 2008___24-40-0 (0.375)_____ 0-0-0 (0.000)____24-40-0 (0.375)______NONE
Terry Robiskie__NFL______2004*_________1-_4-0 (0.200)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____1-_4-0 (0.200)______NONE
Butch Davis____NFL______2001 - 2004___24-35-0 (0.407)_____0-1-0 (0.000)____24-36-0 (0.400)______NONE
Chris Palmer___ NFL______1999 - 2000____5-27-0 (0.156)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____5-27-0 (0.156)______NONE
Bill Belichick___ NFL______1991 - 1995___ 36-44-0 (0.450)_____1-1-0 (0.500)____37-45-0 (0.451)______NONE
Jim Shofner____NFL______1990*_________1-_6-0 (0.143)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____1-_6-0 (0.143)______NONE
Bud Carson____NFL______1989 - 1990____11-13-1 (0.458)____1-1-0 (0.500)_____12-14-1 (0.462)______NONE
Marty Schottenheimer____1984 - 1988____44-27-0 (0.620)____2-4-0 (0.333)_____46-31-0 (0.597)______NONE
Sam Rutigliano_ NFL_____1978 - 1984____ 47-50-0 (0.485)____0-2-0 (0.000)_____47-52-0 (0.475)______NONE
Dick Modzelewski________1977*__________0-_1-0 (0.000)____0-0-0 (0.000)______0-_1-0 (0.000)______NONE
Forrest Gregg__ NFL_____1975 - 1977____ 18-23-0 (0.485)____0-0-0 (0.000)______18-23-0 (0.485)_____NONE
Nick Skorich___ NFL_____1971 - 1974____ 30-24-2 (0.556)____0-2-0 (0.000)______30-26-2 (0.536)_____3 years (Philadelphia 15-24-3)
Blanton Collier__NFL_____1963 - 1970____76-34-2 (0.691)____3-4-0 (0.429)______79-38-2 (0.675)_____NONE
Paul Brown_____NFL_____1950 - 1962___111-44-5 (0.691)____4-5-0 (0.444)_____115-49-5 (0.701)
Paul Brown____AAFC____1946 - 1949_____47-_4-3 (0.922)____5-0-0 (1.000)______52-_4-3 (0.929)

Thanks. I didn't think we hired any coaches w/out straight from college. Although, your list is only for head coaches. This discussion started w/Leonhard as a candidate for DC and him not having any NFL coaching experience, so perhaps we have hired coordinators who didn't have NFL coaching experience, but I just don't remember who they were.

Maybe you should pay better attention next time instead of lying about what was actually posted. But then that's nothing new.....

I would still like to know who those guys are. Why include that statement if you want others to ignore it?

or at this job at this level

I don't care about NFL coaching experience, especially on the defensive side.

Leohnard played 10 or so years in the NFL. He knows NFL D.

People don't need NFL coaching experience to coach in the NFL. Jeff saturday had no coaching experience at all...he is a head coach right now.

Every player in the NFL knows their assignments on their side of the ball. According to your logic that means they would all make good NFL DC's or OC's. I find it odd how you always seem to claim that the Big 10 is a weaker conference than the SEC but now promote some college DC from the big 10 as being the answer. Things that make you go hmmm...

So he's a DC in the Big 10 who doesn't even face the best college teams in the country, according to you, and that's who you want?

No it doesn't. The guy has proven to be a good coach.


As far as the SEC/Big 10 thing, that doesn't have anything to do with anything here.

I am not disputing the "or at this job" part. I am disputing the other part because the conversation was about hiring Leonhard. mac and maybe others didn't want Leonhard hired because he had no NFL coaching experience. So again, I ask for the list of coaches the Browns have hired who had no previous NFL coaching experience?

Btw--------all this fuss and Leonhard probably won't even get the job. LOL.........

True enough.

I am just expressing who I would like to see. To me he has all of the qualifications, including being an alumnus of the team.

peen, I wasn't getting on your case. You are making an argument for your preferred choice. I am taking exception w/those who are trying to say the Browns have a history of bringing in coaches w/no prior NFL coaching experience. I really can't think of any, but that doesn't mean there weren't a few guys. Maybe Fazio? He was a HC at Pitt [the university] but I am not sure if he coached D somewhere else in the NFL before he came here. He probably did. No matter what, it's certainly like we have a long history of making such moves. It is just another attempt at trashing the Browns by those w/an agenda.

So you have no idea what "or" means. Instead you wish to parcel a part of a sentence in order to change the context. Not surprised. And it seems it's you and Peen making a big deal about Leonhard who has zero experience as an NFL coach in any capacity.

I know exactly what "or" means. Again, I get the latter part of your statement. However, I think the first part is yet another fabrication by you to make the Browns look bad. Furthermore, I contend that many teams have hired Head Coaches who have not had any prior HC experience in the NFL. So, what's the big deal? It's just yet another example of you hating on the Browns.

The "statement" as you say is the entire sentence. Not a parceled portion of it. As an English teacher I thought you would understand that. And I know you're fully aware of this, but many of my posts aren't and haven't had anything to do with "making the Browns look bad". There are posters on here that do far more of that than I. Yet you don't seem to say anything about it. Like Rish for example. You seem to be very elective about who you target with that mantra. You know I've given watson credit for every game he has shown improvement as an example. But never mind all of that, right?

Can we re visit game #I vs. the Carolina Panthers in 2022.

The Browns defense in the first 4 series had the Panther @b looking like he'd go 0 for a million and get sacked nineteen times
if the rest of the game continued like that.

Now, the Browns defense was coached ok, ready to play.

Now?

The Browns offense, in the opening half of the opening game against Carolina?
Why didn't they put up more points. The Panthers were not a great defense that day, not even a really good defense that day.

Because offense is the consistent problem. need more evidence? 2020, the run up to the playoff year,

Look at ANY, first possession on OFFENSE of an overtime period that year, and they were all terrible, unprepared, looked like they didn't belong or weren't ready to decide what to do on offense in overtime, and that is consistent over 30 games.

It's not the defense that is the problem,
the offense is still the problem, it has been for all but maybe 2 years since Nineteen Ninety Nine,

... not for nothing but I feel that Leonhard as a DC would be amazingly a step back to BAD like Chud as a HC bad,

In Watson's first game back, the defense outscored the Browns offense by getting I4 points and seven more on a punt return to only 3, or maybe 6 after a turnover, but the offense wasn't doing well.

The offense needs retooled for 2023, the defense is fine, but, when will they ever learn.

They need to open their eyes, somebody needs to open their eyes.

Your sentence is worded as in both things have taken place. Not an either or proposition. Then again, we all know that your insecurities won't allow you to admit you are wrong.

Awe. And a very Happy New Year to you too.

Urban Dictionary of or changes to O.R. haha.
I. short for over rated
2. organized rhyme
3. over reaction
:see more definitinons:

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.


awe
/ô/
noun

a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder.
"they gazed in awe at the small mountain of diamonds"


verb
inspire with awe.
"they were both awed by the vastness of the forest"



Similar-sounding words
awe is sometimes confused with aw and aww

Finally you can use your English degree since you left the classroom. But this isn't your classroom. You seem to have a problem getting a grasp on that fact. And once again, Happy New Year.

Actually, I use that degree all the time to decipher all the BS you spew daily. Funny you mention classrooms when you and your little gang of terror tell others which stats and which articles people can post and which ones to not post.

Gang of terror? And you talk about the BS I post? You're hilarious! When have I ever told anyone which articles they can post or which one's not to post? I haven't. Yet you try to call out others for posting BS? Put down the whiskey bottle. And again, Happy New Year.

Who cares? Coaching is coaching.

If the guy never played in the NFL or was only around for a year as a practice squad player I might get your point. Joe Woods had plenty of pro coaching experience.

What did that do for him?

Joe Woods was never a DC - which I think is Pit's point. I don't know diddly about Leonhard - so can't comment one way or the other. McVay had a pretty skinny resume when he became (then) Redskins OC - 3 seasons later he's HC of the Rams and is the poster boy for "new up and coming" .... If you get the RIGHT guy it doesn't matter if he's a retread or brand new to the NFL in my eyes, getting the right guy seems about as hard as getting the right QB for the Browns.

The Browns have had 20 Offensive Coordinators in their history. 10 of those or 50% were hired with no OC experience. 6 of the 20 had winning records as OC's before getting the Browns position. In the last 35 years, the Browns only had 2 OC's with winning records: Joe Pendry 1988 (10-7) and Marc Trestman 1989 (10-7-1) with the jury still out on Van Pelt who sits at 52.0% (27-25).


Coach________Years__________Record___Win %_Playoff record__Prior Experience as OC before CLE
Alex Van Pelt___2020-Current___26-24-0__52.0%___ 1-1_____1 year Buffalo (6-10)
Todd Monken___2019__________ 6-10-0__37.5%___ 0-0_____3 years Tampa (19-29)
Todd Haley____ 2018__________ 2-5-1___31.3%___ 0-0_____2 years ARI (20-16), 6 years Pittsburgh (74-39-0)
John DeFilippo__2015__________ 3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Kyle Shanahan_ 2014__________ 7-9-0___43.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Norv Turner____2013 __________4-12-0__25.0%___ 0-0_____3 years Dallas (43-25-1), 1 year San Diego (5-11), 1 year Miami (9-7), 1 year SFO (7-9),
Brad Childress__2012 __________5-11-0__31.3%___ 0-0_____4 years PHI (47-24)
Brian Daboll___ 2009-2010_____10-22-0__31.3%___ 0-0_____NONE
Rob Chudzinski_2007-2008_____14-18-0__43.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Maurice Carthon 2005-2006_____7-15-0___31.8%___ 0-0_____1 year DET (3-13), 2 years Dallas (16-17)
Terry Robiskie__2004__________ 3-8-0___27.3%___ 0-0_____5 years LA Raiders (46-36),
Bruce Arians___ 2001-2003_____21-27-0_ 43.8%___ 0-1_____NONE
Pete Carmichael 2000__________ 3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Steve Crosby___1994-1995____ 16-16-0__50.0%___ 1-1_____NONE
Jim Shofner____1990_________ 3-13-0__ 18.8%___ 0-0_____2 years Houston Oilers (8-17), 4 years Cardinals (23-39-1)
Marc Trestman_ 1989__________ 9-6-1___59.4%___ 1-1_____NONE
Joe Pendry____ 1988__________10-6-0___62.5%___ 0-1_____NONE
Lindy Infante__ 1986-1987_____ 22-9-0___71.0%___2-2_____1 year Cincinnati (7-3-0)
Joe Scannella__1984___________5-11-0__31.3%___ 0-0_____NONE
Larrye Weaver_ 1983__________ 9-7-0 56.3%___ 0-0_____2 years San Diego (18-11)

The Cleveland Browns have not had a Defensive Coordinator with a career winning record with the Browns since 1989 and the jury is still out on Joe Woods who currently sits at 52.0%. The only hire the Browns had directly from college at HC, OC, or DC was DC Nick Saban from Toledo in 1991.


Coach__________Years________Record___Win %___Playoff record___Prior Experience as DC before CLE
Joe Woods_____2020-Current___25-23-0__52.0%___ 1-1______2 years Denver (11-21)
Steve Wilks____2019__________ 6-10-0__37.5%___ 0-0______1 year Panthers (11-6)
Gregg Williams_2017-2018______7-24-1__ 23.4%___ 0-0______4 years TEN (45-24), 1 year JAX (5-11), 3 yrs NOS (41-13), 3 yrs Rams (17-31)
Louie Cioffi____2016___________1-15-0__ 6.3%____0-0______NONE
Jim O'Neil_____2014-2015_____10-22-0__ 31.3%___ 0-0______NONE
Ray Horton____2013___________4-12-0__25.0%___ 0-0______2 years Arizona (13-19)
Dick Jauron___ 2011-2012______ 9-23-0__28.1%___ 0-0______4 years Jacksonville (38-32), 2 yrs DET (11-21)
Rob Ryan_____2009-2010______10-22-0__31.3%___ 0-0______5 yrs Oakland (20-60)
Mel Tucker____2008___________ 4-12-0__25.0%___ 0-0______NONE
Todd Grantham2005-2007______20-28-0__41.7%___ 0-0______NONE
Dave Campo__2003-2004_______9-23-0__28.1%___ 0-0______5 yrs Dallas (40-37)
Foge Fazio____2001-2002______16-16-0__50.0%___ 0-1______4 yrs MIN (46-25)
Romeo Crennel_2000___________3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0______NONE
Bob Slowik____1999___________ 2-14-0__12.5%___ 0-0______6 yrs Chicago (41-57)
Rick Venturi___1995___________ 5-11-0__31.3%___ 0-0______4 yrs IND (17-36),
Nick Saban___ 1991-1994______31-33-0__48.4%___ 1-1______NONE - College hire from Toledo
Jim Vechiarella_1990___________3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0______NONE
Dan Radakovich1989___________ 9-6-1___59.4%___ 1-1______1 year SFO (2-14)
Dave Adolph___1984,1986-1988_37-26-0__58.7%___ 2-3______NONE
Tom Bettis____1985____________8-8-0___50.0%___0-1______1 year KCC (2-14), 7 years Cardinals (45-60-1)
Schottenheimer1980-1984______34-39-0__46.6%___ 0-2______1 year NYG (5-9)
D Modzelewski 1976-1977______15-13-0__53.6%___ 0-0______NONE
Howard Brinker1964-1973______92-44-4__67.1%___ 3-6______NONE

I am not sure what the point is in posting all of that?



To me if you are hiring a coordinator who has NFL coordinator experience, you are hiring a guy who failed in the position unless he was in the job on a interim basis. It seems that very few cycle through the position with different teams if they are any good.

Coordinator is a steppingstone position to a head coaching position, be it in the NFL or college. I suppose in some cases people are hired who were good as a coordinator, got a HC position, floundered in that position then go back to being a coordinator.

Somebody who might fill that bill currently is Jim Schwartz. If the desire is to get an experienced D coordinator who had NFL success at the position, then Schwartz might be a guy to give a look.

Geez, Peen, it was posted because of the tiff on the forum about experience at the position and how the Browns did in that regard. Inquiring minds wanted to know. As far as success in the position, I agree that it's a revolving door and talent has a huge bearing on that. It is part of the hierarchy where OC/DC is a step toward the HC position, but the problem is and has been that just because you're a good foot soldier doesn't make you a great general. I've seen it my entire career where people are under the impression that a great foot soldier can be a general and they fail. The NFL is the poster child for that cause. IMHO, that's exactly what the Browns have in Stefanski. He can run an offense (to a degree), but he doesn't have the chops to be in control of everything that's required to be a HC. There's a reason why the vast majority of people have little to no idea who OC/DC are on a team. The Browns do not have that type of HC where those positions report to him and there in that lies the problem with the current Browns. Bringing on a new DC is most likely not going to solve the problems the Browns have today. They are talent weak (FO and HC decision makers) at many positions and they have a HC who has not shown he can manage the whole team. Passing off the teams' failures on the QB position last year and now the DC this year after a poorer performance to date than last year is nothing more than an excuse driven franchise that's underperforming due to a lack in leadership. Until that is addressed, the Browns will continue to be wannabes.

While a DC isn't the total answer, I do think it will make a fairly significant difference.

I am not going to say the D laid down, but it looked to me we were half-assing it far too many times. I think that was a direct reflection on Woods.

I think steve is trying to fight. I barely glanced at his posts because he is trying to prove some point that I did not make. I did not ask how many coaches have the Browns had that received a promotion. My question is how many coaches have the Browns hired that came directly from college and had no experience coaching in the NFL before? I saw Saban's name highlighted. Is he the only one?

Seeing Saban's name reminds me of that era. We actually had perhaps the greatest coaching staff ever assembled and our genius fans trashed our coaching staff because they were upset about one player's demotion. Go figure.

What fight and who mentioned you in any way, shape, or form about the previous coaches? Just because a person doesn't kneel down to your biased opinion doesn't make them try to cause a fight. You don't have to agree with my posts but just because I totally disagree with the majority of your opinions doesn't make me want a fight. This is a fan forum where I have as much right to state my opinion as you do. Nobody should have to be walking on pins and needles because they might cause you to go off like you do the vast majority of the time because another forum fan doesn't kneel before you and agree with your biased opinion. If you're going to take cheap shots at peoples posts that have no reference to you then buckle up, you get what you deserve. Some of us will continue to talk Browns football while you continue your crying about everything in a corner. As has been said before, this forum was such a nicer place to visit while you were on your self-imposed hiatus.

Just as I thought.....

You gave actual football statistics in regards to the coaching staffs. That must mean you want to fight. The stupidity involved in someone even uttering such a thing is obvious.

Where are the adults to scold the children for these posts?

Pretty sure Vers questioned a post by Pit about experience. Steve provided one post with experience history, Vers response was to say thank you but ask about a different coaching group. Steve has provided the same information as before but for the other coaching group, but now is accused of instigatinga fight and Vers claims he doesn't know why the stats have been posted that validate Pits original post that Vers trashed.

Facts are not his friend. It appears Peen isn't a fan of them either. But that's the game. Label someone as being negative or having an agenda to try and distract people away from the facts.

He posted facts, but they did were facts that had nothing to do w/my question and that your assertion that the Browns have hired college coaches who had never coached in the NFL before.

This whole conversation is off the rails. Experience where? Experience how? None of that matters. Read down this list of coaches STR. The problem isn't their experience level when they got here, the problem is that they were all sh*tty head coaches. It's like looking at a beat-up-POS-car, that doesn't run, and arguing over whether the tires will be good in the winter.


Freddie Kitchens
Kitchens was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2019 season.

Hue Jackson
Jackson was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2016-2018 seasons, a total of three years. Jackson's record as the team's head coach was 3-36-1, making him the least successful head coach in Cleveland Browns history.

Mike Pettine
Pettine was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2014-2015 seasons, a total of two years.

Rob Chudzinski
Chudzinski was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2013 season. Chudzinski's record as the team's head coach was 4-12-0, making him the third-least successful head coach in Cleveland Browns history.

Pat Shurmur
Shurmur was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2011-2012 seasons, a total of two years.

Eric Mangini
Mangini was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2009-2010 seasons, a total of two years.

Romeo Crennel
Crennel was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2005-2008 seasons, a total of four years.

Butch Davis
Davis was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2001-2004 seasons, a total of four years. The team made it to the playoffs one time (2002) and had a 0-1 record under Coach Davis in playoff games.

Chris Palmer
Palmer was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 1999-2000 seasons, a total of two years. Palmer's record as the team's head coach was 5-27-0, making him the second-least successful head coach in Cleveland Browns history.

Quite a list of coaches none of whom were successful. Well. at least they battled and tried hard!!!!

The more things change the more they stay the same.

For an English major you sure don't comprehend very well. It is clearly posted in the DC post that the only HC/OC/DC the Browns have ever hired directly from the college ranks was Nick Saban from the U of Toledo as a DC. Now if that doesn't answer your question with the documented proof of where all the other hires came from then I don't know what the hell to tell you. Talk about someone just wanting to start a fight.

Butch Davis, Browns 2nd head coach after the rebirth in NinetyNine, had not been a HC in the NFL prior, and had come from the U, of Mia, if I recall correctly.
And became about the best HC since the return in my opinion, at least top 3, even after Ks, and Pettine or Palmer? ....or Crennel better than Palmer but Crennel not as good as Davis, Whatever.... Because he won a couple of games they weren't even supposed to compete in, Jacksonville being one of them.

We went to the playoffs with Butch - but I will always remember him for:

- the "stars not aligning" and how he handled or started the QB controversy
- Giving up a king's ransom to move up 1 spot and draft 'The Chosen One' - and not drafting Big Ben.
- Telling us James Jackson was a better RB than Clinton Portis (or trying to imply that with whatever BS he came up with at the time).

He did come from Miami, but before that he was a DC in Dallas. So, he had NFL coaching experience.

Corrected & Updated

Here's the Browns HC history. 22 HC hires after Paul Brown with only 3 having prior HC experience and none of those 3 having posted a winning record as a HC prior to coming to Cleveland. Only 5 coaches to date have posted winning records over the 59 years since Paul Brown: Blanton Collier 1963-1970 (79-38-2 @ .675), Gregg Williams 2018 (5-3-0 @.625), Schottenheimer 1984-1988 (46-31-0 @ .597), Nick Skorich 1971-1974 (30-26-2 @ .536) and currently Kevin Stefanski 2020-current (27-24-0 @ .529). The Cleveland Browns have never hired an experienced HC with a NFL winning record in the history of the Cleveland Browns. The Browns have hired 2 HC from the college ranks with no NFL experience: Paul Brown and Butch Davis. The current hit rate for hiring a HC coach that produces a career winning record is 19% (4/21) with the jury still out on Stefanski.


Name_________League____Years____Regular Season Records___Playoff Records__Combined Records__Prior HC Experience

Kevin Stefanski__NFL______2020 - ______25-23-0 (0.521)_____1-1-0 (0.500)____26-24-0 (0.520)______NONE - previous position Vikings OC
Freddie Kitchens_NFL______2019_________6-10-0 (0.375)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____6-10-0 (0.375)______NONE - previous position Browns Interim OC
Gregg Williams__NFL______2018*________5-_3-0 (0.625)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____5-_3-0 (0.625)______NONE - previous position Browns DC
Hue Jackson____NFL______2016 - 2018___3-36-1 (0.088)_____ 0-0-0 (0.000)_____3-36-1 (0.088)______1 year (Oakland 8-8), previous position CIN OC
Mike Pettine____NFL______2014 - 2015__10-22-0 (0.313)______0-0-0 (0.000)____10-22-0 (0.313)______NONE - previous position Bills DC
Rob Chudzinski_NFL_______2013________4-12-0 (0.250)______0-0-0 (0.000)_____4-12-0 (0.250)______NONE - previous position Panthers OC
Pat Shurmur___ NFL______2011 - 2012___ 9-23-0 (0.281)______0-0-0 (0.000)_____9-23-0 (0.281)______NONE - previous position Rams OC
Eric Mangini____NFL______2009 - 2010__10-22-0 (0.313)______0-0-0 (0.000)____10-22-0 (0.313)______3 years (NYJETS 23-26) - previous position NYJets HC
Romeo Crennel_NFL______2005 - 2008___24-40-0 (0.375)_____ 0-0-0 (0.000)____24-40-0 (0.375)______NONE - previous position New England DC
Terry Robiskie__NFL______2004*_________1-_4-0 (0.200)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____1-_4-0 (0.200)______NONE = previous position Browns WR Coach
Butch Davis____NFL______2001 - 2004___24-35-0 (0.407)_____0-1-0 (0.000)____24-36-0 (0.400)______NONE - previous position U Miami HC (6 yrs-51-20)
Chris Palmer___ NFL______1999 - 2000____5-27-0 (0.156)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____5-27-0 (0.156)______NONE - previous position Jacksonville OC
Bill Belichick___ NFL______1991 - 1995___ 36-44-0 (0.450)_____1-1-0 (0.500)____37-45-0 (0.451)______NONE - previous position NYGiants DC
Jim Shofner____NFL______1990*_________1-_6-0 (0.143)_____0-0-0 (0.000)_____1-_6-0 (0.143)______NONE - previous position Browns OC
Bud Carson____NFL______1989 - 1990____11-13-1 (0.458)____1-1-0 (0.500)_____12-14-1 (0.462)______NONE - previous position NYJets DC
Marty Schottenheimer____1984 - 1988____44-27-0 (0.620)____2-4-0 (0.333)_____46-31-0 (0.597)______NONE - previous position Browns DC
Sam Rutigliano_ NFL_____1978 - 1984____ 47-50-0 (0.485)____0-2-0 (0.000)_____47-52-0 (0.475)______NONE - previous position New Orleans WR Coach
Dick Modzelewski________1977*__________0-_1-0 (0.000)____0-0-0 (0.000)______0-_1-0 (0.000)______NONE - previous position Browns DC
Forrest Gregg__ NFL_____1975 - 1977____ 18-23-0 (0.485)____0-0-0 (0.000)______18-23-0 (0.485)_____NONE - previous position Browns Offensive Line Coach
Nick Skorich___ NFL_____1971 - 1974____ 30-24-2 (0.556)____0-2-0 (0.000)______30-26-2 (0.536)_____3 years (Philadelphia 15-24-3), previous position Browns Assistance Coach
Blanton Collier__NFL_____1963 - 1970____76-34-2 (0.691)____3-4-0 (0.429)______79-38-2 (0.675)_____NONE - previous position Browns Backfield Coach
Paul Brown_____NFL_____1950 - 1962___111-44-5 (0.691)____4-5-0 (0.444)_____115-49-5 (0.701)
Paul Brown____AAFC____1946 - 1949_____47-_4-3 (0.922)____5-0-0 (1.000)______52-_4-3 (0.929)____NONE - previous position prior to WWII (1944-45), Ohio State HC

Butch Davis spent time with the Dallas Cowboys from 1989-1994. DL coach and then DC.

But no NFL HC experience

Butch Davis did have NFL coaching experience before he was the HC of the Browns.

Yet still, no NFL HC experience prior to landing the Browns job.

No one is arguing about no HC experience. Not one single person. The debate started because mac stated that he did not want Leonhard as a HC because he had never coached in the NFL and it took off from there.

Arguing about a HC never being a NFL HC before would be a pretty stupid argument because obviously all head coaches have to get their first job before even thinking of getting a second opportunity. smh

Didn’t we hire Botch Davis from u of Miami? And frankly I don’t really care about this entire convo - it’s not important.

Exactly. A grand total of one of these (Shurmur) were hired as a HC after their time with the Browns, and he didn't last long, going 9-23. (I didn't count the Romeo and Shurmur interim coach stints).

Here is what I posted on page 2 of this thread, concerning the possibility of the Browns hiring Leonhard...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



vers is completely WRONG about what I posted and he MANUFACTURED a false narrative in his head that is not based in fact. I did not mention anything about Leonhard being a HC in the NFL...but I was concerned about Leonhard's lack of NFL 'COACHING' experience as it pertains to filling the Browns DC position should Woods be fired by the Browns.

No mac. I am not completely wrong. You are once again misreading my intent. I was not bad-mouthing you. You brought up a valid point. That's what started the conversation. What I am doing is challenging Pit's assertion that we have a history of hiring coaches w/no previous NFL coaching experience.

vers...Below is exactly what you made up and got 100% WRONG...



vers...Did I state that I did not want Leonhard as HC..?

Here is your shovel...you can keep digging or you can simply say that YOU WERE WRONG, the debate did not start because 'mac' didn't want Leonhard as a HC because he had never coached in the NFL.

I was wrong mac.

Thank you, vers... were good..

Not too long ago Jim Harbaugh went fro San Diego University (not San Diego State) to Stanford, to San Francisco, to Michigan.

I think he is a good coach that gets the most out of his team that he has to work with.. and I generally smile about his OSU record.

I think Leonard will be coaching at a major college or in the NFL soon. It was always stated during his playing days that he was a coach on the field.

Someone will take a chance and be rewarded.

j/c:

Quietly, Amari Cooper is having a very nice year. With one game remaining on the schedule, he has hauled in 76 receptions for over 1,100 yards and has scored 9 TDs. That's a real nice year considering that the team has had to prepare and play 2 qbs. I also like that he is not a "me" guy. Very quiet. Doesn't talk a whole lot. Not flashy. Just productive.

Berry has to receive some credit for making the trade. I know Amari had a large contract, but look at how WR salaries have exploded this year. Hell, Christian Kirk is making a fortune. I believe we traded two 5th round picks and swapped 6th round picks. That's a steal.

I don't know that I would go so far as to call it a steal. The size of his contract is the very reason the Cowboys weren't able to get more in a trade for him. But he has been very good and it was a good investment for a very good WR IMO.

I think it was a steal. I was high on Cooper before he was a Brown, he's done nothing but impress me as a Brown. He's a genuine #1 and for my money the best WR the Browns have had since the return with the exception of one season from Gordon when he was off the charts.

I'm basing my comment on what the market was for him at the time. He's certainly the best WR the Browns have had. I include Gordon in that because the player and the person go hand in hand. Ability go and and hand with availability. If your actions prevent you from being on the field you aren't that good. No player who by their own actions continually prevents themselves from being able to perform on the filed do I consider an asset you can count on. If teams in the NFL thought Cooper was worth more than the Browns were willing to pay and trade for him they would have done so. To me a steal is getting an unproven player who you get more out of than anyone would have expected you to or getting a great player at a bargain basement price. Cooper was a known commodity. What constitutes a steal I'm sure varies from person to person.

This is where Berry does his best work. He'll turn what looks like an expensive contract into an actual asset. A move like this helps us preserve carry-over cap for the 2023 FA bonanza. I'm not saying Cooper is cheap, and won't argue his actual 'market worth'; but considering his contract has no real negative impact -- I'd go ahead and stamp this deal "STEAL". jmo

As has been pointed out many times, you can kick the can down the road for a while. But watson was given a 5 year 230 million guaranteed contract. That 230 million has to be paid out and accounted for over that five year span. That 15 million saved this year is only 15 million that will still be paid and accounted for in the upcoming years of his contract. It just means he will cost even more against the cap later.

The Browns are pretty much paying market value for Cooper in his salary. I'm not sure how paying a player his actual value is a steal. I'm glad they got him. He's worth what they're paying him. They needed an actual #1 WR and he fits the bill. But he's also being well paid for it.